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Dread Operative
Justified Chaos
16
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Posted - 2012.09.14 12:41:00 -
[1] - Quote
So I am trying to get my head wrapped around what I just witnessed. If a neutral logi is repping a war target before anyone aggresses it, he will only get aggression against the ship that the wt engages, but if he starts give reps after the war target is engaged by multiple targets he will get aggression against everything that is shooting at the war target. Is that correct. If not could some please explain it to me? Thank you. |
eddie valvetino
Snuff Box
32
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Posted - 2012.09.14 12:46:00 -
[2] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:So I am trying to get my head wrapped around what I just witnessed. If a neutral logi is repping a war target before anyone aggresses it, he will only get aggression against the ship that the wt engages, but if he starts give reps after the war target is engaged by multiple targets he will get aggression against everything that is shooting at the war target. Is that correct. If not could some please explain it to me? Thank you.
working as intended |
Tah'ris Khlador
Space Ghosts. Break-A-Wish Foundation
197
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Posted - 2012.09.14 13:01:00 -
[3] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:So I am trying to get my head wrapped around what I just witnessed. If a neutral logi is repping a war target before anyone aggresses it, he will only get aggression against the ship that the wt engages, but if he starts give reps after the war target is engaged by multiple targets he will get aggression against everything that is shooting at the war target. Is that correct. If not could some please explain it to me? Thank you.
If a neut logi reps pilot A, the logi is now shootable by the WTs of pilot A and anyone pilot A is currently aggressed with.
Anyone pilot A aggresses or anyone that aggresses pilot A while the logi is repping pilot A will also be able to aggress the logi.
Make sense? |
Dread Operative
Justified Chaos
16
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Posted - 2012.09.14 16:19:00 -
[4] - Quote
So why the heck do ppl complain about them if they are a viable target for everyone pretty much as soon as the fight starts? |
Doddy
Excidium. Executive Outcomes
170
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Posted - 2012.09.14 18:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Because people are dumb and like to complain about things. None of this is new by the way "neutral logi" has always been a viable target. The main issue people have is that the logi has no agression so can dock if it does get attacked and then undock and rep again. |
Astroniomix
Thorn Project
213
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Posted - 2012.09.14 18:27:00 -
[6] - Quote
Doddy wrote:The main issue people have is that the logi has no agression so can dock if it does get attacked and then undock and rep again. This^
It heavily screws over people who don't have their own logi, because all it takes is one or two cycles to totaly turn the tables.
Logis can also be a bit difficult to catch and being unable to preimptively nuke them on a gate or undock without getting CONCORD-to-the-knee kinda sucks. |
lanyaie
524
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Posted - 2012.09.14 18:47:00 -
[7] - Quote
lulz highsec pvp Vile rat |
Tea2theBag
Lonetrek Salvage and Scrap
0
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Posted - 2012.09.14 18:52:00 -
[8] - Quote
lanyaie wrote:lulz highsec pvp
Inb4 capitals. |
Psychotic Monk
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
395
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Posted - 2012.09.15 01:32:00 -
[9] - Quote
The main complaint about them isn't that they can or can't be shot, the issue is that they don't get aggression, so can dock up as soon as they're shot, undock with full shields again, and only miss about two cycles.
This makes them very hard to kill. |
Tysinger
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
19
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Posted - 2012.09.15 16:02:00 -
[10] - Quote
I have a GREAT idea....
Train your own FUCKIN Logi...YAY
though I do not have any myself. |
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Astroniomix
Thorn Project
223
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Posted - 2012.09.15 22:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tysinger wrote:I have a GREAT idea....
Train your own FUCKIN Logi...YAY
though I do not have any myself. Still doesn't change the fact that being able to participate in combat and not get an agro timer is stupid. |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2210
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Posted - 2012.09.15 22:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
Astroniomix wrote:Tysinger wrote:I have a GREAT idea....
Train your own FUCKIN Logi...YAY
though I do not have any myself. Still doesn't change the fact that being able to participate in combat and not get an agro timer is stupid.
Logis don't aggro anything so how can they get an aggro timer? "A genius throws a Molotov cocktail and soon realizes that he's going to die choking in a maze of smoke and flame. A hero drinks a Molotov cocktail and soon realizes that if he does a split in midair, he can hit twice as many zombies per kick. Drunk hero wins again, wusses." ~Cracked.com |
Gary Bell
Odyssey Inc SpaceMonkey's Alliance
15
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Posted - 2012.09.16 14:25:00 -
[13] - Quote
There are alot of other issues with the system aswell.
-Nuet logi one reps his alt who is at war with WT1 and WT2. WT1 and 2 shoot logi. Logi docks and comes back out in second fully pimped PVP ships and begins to blap. ( Funniest thing you will see is oh a Moa with logi repping my wt. Pew pew pew oh he docked. Oh snap Golem poof 2 volleyed Command ship.. ) Those who enjoy this type of pvp will often have several toons that are fully skilled that they will use to bait aggro. I have personally fought Snatch victory back in the day with this tactic. They though oh 3 man corp. Well we had 4 different corps with about 17 Nuet logi between us, most of which were able to switch to faction pimp battleships. Needless to say 17 Bs and 2 Cmd ships later they left.. Wondering how they got no kills...
-Prob 2. Nuet logi is gets pew pewed. Second logi undocks and they begin to circle jerk, and neither die.
Nuet logi is a big issue in highsec that makes even the worst multiboxer very very hard to kill even by a small gang. It is an issue that needs to be looked at, mostly the aggro mechanics. Still though the issue will always remain about what to do when the logis rep each other.
I havent looked to close at the crimewatch changes but it will be cool to see how things change..
NINJA EDIT
Logi taking aggro will also help in low sec where some like to sit on station repping there arty fit Machs who blap anything coming at them and when they get into trouble they dock the Battleship in the carrier and warp off. At least now the carrier will be at risk if the group is ready to kill it... |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
772
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Posted - 2012.09.16 17:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:So why the heck do ppl complain about them if they are a viable target for everyone pretty much as soon as the fight starts? Almost all of the complaints other than "Logistics ships should not be able to dock while repping" are people either complaining about how they were dumb and lost a fight or complaining because they didn't actually know you can shoot neutral logistics (which is actually a very common misconception among people who live in nullsec). |
Pipa Porto
947
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Posted - 2012.09.17 02:25:00 -
[15] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:The main complaint about them isn't that they can or can't be shot, the issue is that they don't get aggression, so can dock up as soon as they're shot, undock with full shields again, and only miss about two cycles.
This makes them very hard to kill.
Their ability to Dock has nothing to do with their neutrality and is a factor in any fight on any station or gate in any segment of space.
So the real complaint about neutral RR is "I lost because I underestimated my enemy's ability to bring reinforcements" or "I was promised an XvX fight and my enemy cheated."
Basically, the only advantage that having your Logi pilots neutral provides is the ability to reduce the effectiveness of your enemy's use of Local as an intel tool.
As for an easy fix for Logi's docking up: Stop fighting on Stations. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Durzel
The Xenodus Initiative.
64
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Posted - 2012.09.17 10:09:00 -
[16] - Quote
Dread Operative wrote:So why the heck do ppl complain about them if they are a viable target for everyone pretty much as soon as the fight starts? Because logis have decent tanks, will typically be some distance from the undock and can dock instantly as soon as they look like they are taking too much damage.
CCP talked up transferred combat aggression (the 60 sec "can't jump because of blah" timer) some time back in Crimewatch but it seems to have died a death (unlike neutral logis) |
whaynethepain
54
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Posted - 2012.09.17 10:55:00 -
[17] - Quote
Well, I have only given reps in nul-sec, I use a cruiser and carrier to rep, but I do see the issue.
Your high-sec logi is getting involved in aggressions and not getting an aggression timer.
The logi may be on your KM when you died cos he had to warp off, but pfft. will they rep you less?
If I gave my neighbour a big armoured jacket and a scope for his rifle, and he went at someone, I would get aggro from the law, for example.
Anyhow, not really my thing, just saying arming someone is a form of aggression. Getting you on your feet.
So you've further to fall. |
Psychotic Monk
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
396
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Posted - 2012.09.17 12:58:00 -
[18] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:
Basically, the only advantage that having your Logi pilots neutral provides is the ability to reduce the effectiveness of your enemy's use of Local as an intel tool.
As for an easy fix for Logi's docking up: Stop fighting on Stations.
Yes, Ruby, I am aware there are counters and I'm aware that proper intel work should reveal the logi beforehand. It's not a great system, but you fight the best you can under the conditions given to you.
Let's be real here, though. Stop fighting on stations? The problem is similar on gates, too. Not the same, as they can still be caught on the other side if you control that side of a gate, but definatly very similar. Dude, I know you're an intelligent, insightful, experienced forum-goer, don't be like that. We take our fights where we can get them, and that's often on a gate or a station. Saying don't fight on a station to us is like us telling you not to cyno in motherships. It's not as common as our detractors might thing, but sometimes it's exactly the tool for the job. |
Pipa Porto
951
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Posted - 2012.09.17 16:30:00 -
[19] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:Pipa Porto wrote:
Basically, the only advantage that having your Logi pilots neutral provides is the ability to reduce the effectiveness of your enemy's use of Local as an intel tool.
As for an easy fix for Logi's docking up: Stop fighting on Stations.
Yes, Ruby, I am aware there are counters and I'm aware that proper intel work should reveal the logi beforehand. It's not a great system, but you fight the best you can under the conditions given to you. Let's be real here, though. Stop fighting on stations? The problem is similar on gates, too. Not the same, as they can still be caught on the other side if you control that side of a gate, but definatly very similar. Dude, I know you're an intelligent, insightful, experienced forum-goer, don't be like that. We take our fights where we can get them, and that's often on a gate or a station. Saying don't fight on a station to us is like us telling you not to cyno in motherships. It's not as common as our detractors might thing, but sometimes it's exactly the tool for the job.
First off, there are two very separate issues, mostly conflated due to a number of people in HS not knowing anything about the mechanics of the space they live in (the number of people who don't know you can shoot the "neutral" Logi is astounding).
The neutrality of Logis is the same as the "problem" of Local not showing you who's in the next system (or sitting on a Titan bridge). It simply allows people to hide their reserves. As it happens, it's a pretty good method of hiding your reserves (hard-ish to detect and allowing a very quick response) and really convenient (just undock). It's an entirely separate issue from Logi not getting aggression timers, and an issue that really boils down to a variant of the "I got Blobbed" dance.
Now, the Logi Aggro Timer issue is much more interesting. The ability for Logistics ships to disengage at will in certain situations is a significant advantage.
That said, Logis die on gates and on stations in Lowsec and Nullsec all the time. Other ships die in fights on stations and on gates in Lowsec and Nullsec all the time. Logi is often involved in those fights (hell, sometimes the Logi ship involved on station has Capital Reps and allows the targeted ship to refit for resists). I don't see why Highsec has such a problem with the ability of Logi to disengage at will.
Don't think I don't see where you're coming from though. It's annoying seeing a Logi/Carrier/Orca undock and save your enemy's bacon (just as it's annoying to hear a panicky "Cyno Up" on comms in the middle of a fight). But that's the nature of operating on their home turf where they've spent time preparing the field to give themselves an advantage. Taking your fights where you can get them means you also have to be prepared for the disadvantages that allowing your enemy the home field advantage bring. Fighting on station also means that you only have 60s to kill your enemy from the time he realizes he's loosing. EVE is full of examples of the defender in any given encounter has an advantage.
I didn't say that not fighting on stations was the only fix. Just an easy one. "Simple Solution" would probably have been a better phrase, both for alliterative reasons and accuracy reasons. Yes, I was being flip but this issue gets brought up so often that sometimes I don't feel like explaining the whole thing. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Fictional Hero
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2012.09.17 19:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Cant wait for Neut RRing idiots to get aggression. The amount of dead Logi ships will blot out the Eve Gate. |
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jimmyjam
Deadspace Exploration Conglomerate Clockwork Pineapple
59
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Posted - 2012.09.17 22:42:00 -
[21] - Quote
Just dont pvp in hi sec its overated |
Psychotic Monk
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
396
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Posted - 2012.09.18 04:21:00 -
[22] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote: Explaining earlier flippancy.
Oh, okay. Coolios. Lots of people accuse my highsec brothers and sisters of not doing real pvp, so I sometimes get defensive. You remain an object of my lust and respect. <3 |
Pipa Porto
958
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Posted - 2012.09.18 07:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:Pipa Porto wrote: Explaining earlier flippancy. Oh, okay. Coolios. Lots of people accuse my highsec brothers and sisters of not doing real pvp, so I sometimes get defensive. You remain an object of my lust and respect. <3
Yeah, anyone (except WHers) telling HS peeps that they don't do real PVP because they play station games is... umm...
That said, most people in HS don't do any PVP, but that's a whole 'nuther issue.
As for lust, it's kind of odd that you're lusting after a dog. You might want to get help for that. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto
Woof. |
Tysinger
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
20
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Posted - 2012.09.25 02:14:00 -
[24] - Quote
Fictional Hero wrote:Cant wait for Neut RRing idiots to get aggression. The amount of dead Logi ships will blot out the Eve Gate.
Wow, are you really that Tarded?? Nothing will change unless it is only 1 logi engaging. Most of the time it is 2-6 and they will not need to dock anyway.
Tard |
Pipa Porto
1021
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Posted - 2012.09.25 02:23:00 -
[25] - Quote
Tysinger wrote:Fictional Hero wrote:Cant wait for Neut RRing idiots to get aggression. The amount of dead Logi ships will blot out the Eve Gate. Wow, are you really that Tarded?? Nothing will change unless it is only 1 logi engaging. Most of the time it is 2-6 and they will not need to dock anyway. Tard
Then Neutral Logi isn't your problem. Your problem is being outnumbered or unprepared. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Tysinger
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
20
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Posted - 2012.09.25 02:47:00 -
[26] - Quote
Pipa Porto wrote:Tysinger wrote:Fictional Hero wrote:Cant wait for Neut RRing idiots to get aggression. The amount of dead Logi ships will blot out the Eve Gate. Wow, are you really that Tarded?? Nothing will change unless it is only 1 logi engaging. Most of the time it is 2-6 and they will not need to dock anyway. Tard Then Neutral Logi isn't your problem. Your problem is being outnumbered or unprepared.
I am not complaining, I am just saying all these fkn cry babies thinking that they are going to blow the sht out of Nuet RR when they change the aggression rules are tards. The only RR that might die is the lone RR ship, it will not effect hardly anyone. I for one don't give a **** if they make it so RR can't dock. |
Pipa Porto
1021
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Posted - 2012.09.25 03:16:00 -
[27] - Quote
Tysinger wrote:I am not complaining, I am just saying all these fkn cry babies thinking that they are going to blow the sht out of Nuet RR when they change the aggression rules are tards. The only RR that might die is the lone RR ship, it will not effect hardly anyone. I for one don't give a **** if they make it so RR can't dock.
Ah, in that case we're in general agreement.
Though if RR prevented you from docking, you'd easily be able to keep Logi pinned by forcing them to rep each other. If your primary deaggros and docks, the DPS switches to the next one, and it deaggros and docks and so on until there's one left and it dies, turning station games into a game of **** break roulette. Either the Logis need a **** break and the last one to dock dies or the attackers need a **** break and the same thing happens. EvE: Everyone vs Everyone
-RubyPorto |
Anya Klibor
Gods Asunder Those Bloody Red Bastards
140
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Posted - 2012.09.25 18:52:00 -
[28] - Quote
In general, this is why I try to fight off stations. I have recently been leading my guys on roams because more fights can be had, and in general you're less likely to fight against neutral logistics. People don't like bringing them off the station, and when they fight on a gate, push them through and keep them out. Really, high sec wars should be no different than null sec wars in that you need to catch your targets with their pants down. Roam more, catch them in missions. Stop fighting on stations and bitching. |
Devil Dodger
Cult of Escobar
6
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Posted - 2012.09.25 20:04:00 -
[29] - Quote
1. Get neutral alt in cloaked 100mn fleet stabber 2. Bump offending logi off station 3. ??? 4. Profit Support my implant marketing campaign: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1903853#post1903853 Our customer list: http://poachers.mindflood.org/ |
Anya Klibor
Gods Asunder Those Bloody Red Bastards
140
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Posted - 2012.09.25 20:43:00 -
[30] - Quote
Devil Dodger wrote:1. Get neutral alt in cloaked 100mn fleet stabber 2. Bump offending logi off station 3. ??? 4. Profit
While hilarious if it's possible, the problem is many stations have massive undock runs (Jita 4-4), or they have ****** up central areas where you can hide and not be bumped (Dodixie M20). |
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