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Finding it hard to understand why people are upset over aur for items

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Rylie Gayle	Posted - 2011.06.25 15:51:00 - [1] How is it any different than it is now? Atm, or even before the patch, I could goto shattered crystal, buy 60day GTC for 30$, sell it or convert to plex and get isk from it. Completely legal and fine by todays standards. People are going bat **** crazy over the idea of using Aurum for items / ships. All it is doing new is introducing a new smaller form of currency. Ie: 1000$ = 1 New Dollar. ( non real conversion but just an example ) Even if they do offer 'special' items in the aurum store that have more / better bonuses. So what? Buy some Plex with ISK, convert the Plex to Aurum, buy it. You don't have to use RL money anywhere in that equation. Its no different than the current situation. Want a normal T1 raven? Buy a GTC, convert to ISK, buy the raven. The only side effect I see is that Plex prices could raise dramatically, thereby making more people want to buy GTCs to convert to plex for the sake of aurum instead of actual game time. And another thing, if they make the specialized ships ridiculously expensive, ie 5x the cost of a monocle, i highly doubt you'll even be see'ing anyone in them in real combat or any other situation due to the fact that it'll be about a 6-7b ship. Think tournament reward ships. Rarely do you see them flown. Now Aurum for SP, I think thats a major drawback because its kind of a kick in the face to all the players who've invested 8+ years in the game. I honestly wouldn't mind a new server specifically for this, even if they have to cut back from TQ. I'm willin to bet a lot of people would migrate just for the opportunity to start over in a new world, but then you run into problems like you did in china having to throttle development and release of items due to in-balances. Hell I say wipe the entire TQ server and let us go back to the stone age.
Demon Azrakel Gallente Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck	Posted - 2011.06.25 15:52:00 - [2] NO
Alpine 69 Rubbish Superheroes	Posted - 2011.06.25 15:54:00 - [3] -
Llambda Space Llama Industries	Posted - 2011.06.25 15:55:00 - [4] Edited by: Llambda on 25/06/2011 15:56:25 It's baffling that so many people are so entirely ignorant to how the present money supply and plex system works. It's completely different because the ISK you're getting from plex is coming from some other player who acquired that ISK through existing gameplay mechanics. By contrast, AUR is generated out of thin air when you turn a plex in. Regardless of how you, personally, acquired the plex that went into the aurum, real money was directly spent to bring that aurum into existence. The same cannot be said of ISK, the only faucets for which exist in the context of gameplay mechanics (missions, ratting, etc.). You're comparing a currency faucet to a mere exchange of goods. This also means that, for anything sold for AUR, it's possible to completely bypass the Eve ingame economy. This is not true for plex->isk transactions.
Sujanra Acoma Minmatar Shadow Kitty Legion Rura-Penthe	Posted - 2011.06.25 15:55:00 - [5] The concern is that you'll be able to buy things like ships with AUR, and those ships will be created out of thin air instead of having been mined out of rocks and manufactured into a ship by players. There's also worry (caused by leaked documents) that CCP is planning on selling things that will give players ingame competitive advantages for AUR. The last concern is the pricing of the vanity items, which is pretty ludicrous.
Zanetia Gallente The Interstellar Lunatic Asylum	Posted - 2011.06.25 15:57:00 - [6] Jesus wept, this again Once more for those with the IQ of a ******ed goldfish... Items bought from the NEX store just magically appear in the game, completely bypassing the player economy. If you buy a GTC or PLEX and convert it to ISK to buy a ship off the market, someone had to mine the minerals, someone had to research the BP, someone had to build the ship and sell it. It didn't just magically appear out of nowhere. The NEX store selling items would screw over the idustrialists. As for 'use ISK to buy PLEX to convert to AUR so you won't be spending real money' argument. Yes, you will be spending real money. Just someone elses. Same as you use someone elses real money to pay your sub if you but a PLEX with ISK. Regardless of which currency is used, EVE becomes a game of buying victory whether it's with PLEX or $$$ rather than earning it with skills.
Discrodia Gallente Symbiosis International Moose Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.25 15:59:00 - [7] Okay, here's how PLEX works: You buy the plex. You sell the plex to someone else. You get ISK, they get gametime. You use the ISK to buy a Machariel. People who benefit: CCP: Gets money. PLEX Buyer: Gets gametime. PLEX Seller: Gets ISK which is used to buy a Machariel. Machariel Seller: Gets ISK. Now here is how Aurum items work. You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel. Here's who benefits: CCP: Gets money. PLEX User: Gets Machariel. Now, the difference is that the former runs through the current ingame economy, benefiting several other people. In the latter scenario, only CCP and the PLEX user benefit. Makes sense? Originally by: anonymous WE JUST DID SCIENCE!
Atticus Fynch Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:00:00 - [8] Originally by: Zanetia Jesus wept, this again Once more for those with the IQ of a ******ed goldfish... Items bought from the NEX store just magically appear in the game, completely bypassing the player economy. If you buy a GTC or PLEX and convert it to ISK to buy a ship off the market, someone had to mine the minerals, someone had to research the BP, someone had to build the ship and sell it. It didn't just magically appear out of nowhere. The NEX store selling items would screw over the idustrialists. As for 'use ISK to buy PLEX to convert to AUR so you won't be spending real money' argument. Yes, you will be spending real money. Just someone elses. Same as you use someone elses real money to pay your sub if you but a PLEX with ISK. Regardless of which currency is used, EVE becomes a game of buying victory whether it's with PLEX or $$$ rather than earning it with skills. ^this ----- CCP exhibits an alcoholic personality...please read
Morae	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:00:00 - [9] OP most likely believes that minerals she mines are free.
ghengis khan2 Shad0wtech	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:01:00 - [10] "Now Aurum for SP, I think thats a major drawback because its kind of a kick in the face to all the players who've invested 8+ years in the game. I honestly wouldn't mind a new server specifically for this, even if they have to cut back from TQ. I'm willin to bet a lot of people would migrate just for the opportunity to start over in a new world, but then you run into problems like you did in china having to throttle development and release of items due to in-balances. Hell I say wipe the entire TQ server and let us go back to the stone age." so you think aurum for sp is a kick in the face for 8 year characters, but you would advocate wiping TQ to start again...i do not understand your logic..

Tutskii	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:01:00 - [11] Incorrect. There is no way to generate a PLEX without using real money. When you use up a plex, you are paying somewhere around 17 dollars depending on the currency it was bought in. Whether its yours or someone elses, its irrelevant. The game should be an economy where other players are the sources of items, and services. It is being altered in a fundamental way so that this is no longer true, and features are being actively removed to sell them later for real money. Fittings is a good example. Accessories in the char creator, another one. But I have another one. Have you heard of EACS? This is Estel Arador Clone Services. A corporation stated by a guy that thought everyone should get jump clones and made it happen. It has touched most everyone in EVE, including myself. Faction standings? I bought my corp standings from another player. Why does CCP need to sell that? is it not a huge conflict of interest? With this new direction, it would never have existed, instead you'd pay 4000 AUR to CCP to buy clones for a particular corporation. It also encourages grindy game design where sure, things will be able to be done without real money, but they will take 10 times as long (look at LOTRO, DDO, ETC). In the end, we pay a monthly subscription (people paying with PLEX actually give them more cash than yearly subscribers, by the way) for access to the content of the game. This content is now being shapen in a way that itll be a monthly subscription (but actually for most people, its several monthly subscriptions) plus however much for Aurum consumables. In short, we are being given less for the same money, and sold the difference. Where is the sandbox in all that? That is not the EVE I signed up for. The community doesn't ask for much. It wants to know where things are going. That place isn't looking pretty right now.
Ayame Yubari	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:03:00 - [12] Edited by: Ayame Yubari on 25/06/2011 16:03:12 Also, is there a way to buy SP currently? Didn't think so (as you noticed yourself).
Antihrist Pripravnik Scorpion Road Industry	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:03:00 - [13] Edited by: Antihrist Pripravnik on 25/06/2011 16:04:38 Quote (AGAIN) from http://eve-search.com/thread/1536065/page/195#5846: NOTE: This is not directed to the OP of this particular thread. It's a quote of a response made earlier (since I'm tired of explaining the same thing over and over again): A couple of questions for you: - Where do you think ships come from? - Who makes them? - Who researches blueprints? - Why are POS-es anchored in highsec? - Where does POS fuel come from? - Where does the ore come from? - How are POS modules produced and where does the materials come from? - Where does faction items comes from? - Who finds those "officer lewtz"? Haul it to empire? Fight for space to be able to farm officers? Make political agreements for the same reason? - Who invents the t2 modules? - Where does t3 materials come from? - Who does reverse engineering? But no, all those people having fun by playing every single aspect of the game can go screw themselves because you have the cash to buy whatever you want and it's all the same if it comes out of other players or straight from the thin air. Please, think about it. The same goes for blueprints in NEX store, with just ore miners and manufacturers excluded. Everyone else is still affected. [Petition] Make entry into CQ and Incarna optional.
Tobiaz Spacerats	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:04:00 - [14] Also: CCP will care more about making items we will have to buy for Aurum, then adding actual content in the updates we deserve for our monthly subscriptions. CCP is adamant about double-billing us. And to insult to injury: we pay money to CCP, they use most of it to build WoD and Dust, and of what's left they make vanity items or in the future maybe even gamemechanics like the +50fittings, which they are then selling back to us for insane prices. I think we have the right to be mad. + 1500 votes on MT in EVE \| NO 79.03% \| YES 5.02% \| COSMETIC ONLY 11.23% \| OTHER 4.73%
XIRUSPHERE Gallente The 8th Order Mean Coalition	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:05:00 - [15] Edited by: XIRUSPHERE on 25/06/2011 16:06:13 Edited by: XIRUSPHERE on 25/06/2011 16:05:37 http://www.eveonline.com/externalLink.aspx?l=http%3A%2F%2Feve%2Ebeyondreality%2Ese%2FNeXCQResponse%2Ehtml Read this, weigh it's implications, it's not about aur for items, it's about the complete disregard for the player base and seeing them as nothing but a cash cow. You can have all the barbie stuff you want, it can cost a million dollars for all I care, but that's not enough they want to r.ape pillage and loot this game while introducing mechanic breaking MT. We would rather burn it down than watch this happen. Stay the course. The size of your ligature is too large. Please use it - Failout
Malice Redeemer	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:05:00 - [16] completely bypass the Eve ingame economy.
Rylie Gayle	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:08:00 - [17] I hope they do just go all out balls to the wall against some of you guys just due to your pure idiocy. Someone asks a question and rather than just give a simple answer, you insult and rub sand paper in their eyes because they're apparently blind anyways. I get it now, but none of you really have a say in it. Read the EULA, nothing in this game belongs to you. You're paying for a service, if you don't enjoy the service or the direction its going, stop paying. But just like Hilmar, I highly doubt 99% of the people who are claiming to quit, really are. You will rage, play, and get the hell over it. Yea its not cool for a company to say that to their customers, but guess what this is ****in EVE. Its a cruel game, and guess what it has cruel masters. You really think the people designing a game that allows, and even promotes violence, scamming, thieving, deception, etc don't possess some of those same qualities?
Through Actions Weapons Grade Industries	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:09:00 - [18] Originally by: Llambda Edited by: Llambda on 25/06/2011 15:56:25 It's baffling that so many people are so entirely ignorant to how the present money supply and plex system works. It's completely different because the ISK you're getting from plex is coming from some other player who acquired that ISK through existing gameplay mechanics. By contrast, AUR is generated out of thin air when you turn a plex in. Regardless of how you, personally, acquired the plex that went into the aurum, real money was directly spent to bring that aurum into existence. The same cannot be said of ISK, the only faucets for which exist in the context of gameplay mechanics (missions, ratting, etc.). You're comparing a currency faucet to a mere exchange of goods. This also means that, for anything sold for AUR, it's possible to completely bypass the Eve ingame economy. This is not true for plex->isk transactions. WRONG. When you buy a PLEX from CCP (not off the market) the PLEX is created out of thin air. Aurum creates an isk sink which should actually help reduce inflation. I really don't see the problem here.
Borun Tal Minmatar Just Abide	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:11:00 - [19] To the OP: only one thing you need to know that answers all questions about both sides of EVERY argument on the forums: The Minerals You Get From Mining Are FREE!!! Understanding that will help you understand every single side of every single argument on the intarwebz.
Da Gooch	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:11:00 - [20] Edited by: Da Gooch on 25/06/2011 16:13:30 Originally by: Rylie Gayle How is it any different than it is now? Atm, or even before the patch, I could goto shattered crystal, buy 60day GTC for 30$, sell it or convert to plex and get isk from it. Completely legal and fine by todays standards. People are going bat **** crazy over the idea of using Aurum for items / ships. All it is doing new is introducing a new smaller form of currency. Ie: 1000$ = 1 New Dollar. ( non real conversion but just an example ) Even if they do offer 'special' items in the aurum store that have more / better bonuses. So what? Buy some Plex with ISK, convert the Plex to Aurum, buy it. You don't have to use RL money anywhere in that equation. Its no different than the current situation. Want a normal T1 raven? Buy a GTC, convert to ISK, buy the raven. The only side effect I see is that Plex prices could raise dramatically, thereby making more people want to buy GTCs to convert to plex for the sake of aurum instead of actual game time. And another thing, if they make the specialized ships ridiculously expensive, ie 5x the cost of a monocle, i highly doubt you'll even be see'ing anyone in them in real combat or any other situation due to the fact that it'll be about a 6-7b ship. Think tournament reward ships. Rarely do you see them flown. Now Aurum for SP, I think thats a major drawback because its kind of a kick in the face to all the players who've invested 8+ years in the game. I honestly wouldn't mind a new server specifically for this, even if they have to cut back from TQ. I'm willin to bet a lot of people would migrate just for the opportunity to start over in a new world, but then you run into problems like you did in china having to throttle development and release of items due to in-balances. Hell I say wipe the entire TQ server and let us go back to the stone age. I suggest you read the thread i made to explain to all those with an IQ under 50, hopefully it will enlighten you alittle better The Butterfly Effect

Da Gooch	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:13:00 - [21] Originally by: Through Actions Originally by: Llambda Edited by: Llambda on 25/06/2011 15:56:25 It's baffling that so many people are so entirely ignorant to how the present money supply and plex system works. It's completely different because the ISK you're getting from plex is coming from some other player who acquired that ISK through existing gameplay mechanics. By contrast, AUR is generated out of thin air when you turn a plex in. Regardless of how you, personally, acquired the plex that went into the aurum, real money was directly spent to bring that aurum into existence. The same cannot be said of ISK, the only faucets for which exist in the context of gameplay mechanics (missions, ratting, etc.). You're comparing a currency faucet to a mere exchange of goods. This also means that, for anything sold for AUR, it's possible to completely bypass the Eve ingame economy. This is not true for plex->isk transactions. WRONG. When you buy a PLEX from CCP (not off the market) the PLEX is created out of thin air. Aurum creates an isk sink which should actually help reduce inflation. I really don't see the problem here. You Sir have joined the under 50 IQ team, congratz @ being a ******
Llambda Space Llama Industries	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:15:00 - [22] Originally by: Through Actions When you buy a PLEX from CCP (not off the market) the PLEX is created out of thin air. Aurum creates an isk sink which should actually help reduce inflation. I really don't see the problem here. You can't be this stupid. Nobody can.
Rylie Gayle	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:17:00 - [23] Whats the difference between an officer drop in 0.0 worth 5b (created out of thin air) and an Aurum item being bought thats worth 5b? They both inject 5b worth of 'product' into the market with no initial cost. Also it was noted from the alliance tournaments that ships on the aurum market will be in the form of BPCs preferably. Which will probably require the consumption of a t1 item. Again how is that diff than a drop.
Mechanoid Kryten Humble Origins Red Dwarf Racketeering Division	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:17:00 - [24] Edited by: Mechanoid Kryten on 25/06/2011 16:18:15 If you read the leaked memo and letter, and see their recent actions with Hellicity and that other guy, you see that the sandbox and sandbox play is officially dead. their leaked "Fearless" letter correctly says we spend money to have alternate identies. but they want to sell us those identies with real money when in fact they were self-created identies. I, for example, found my 15 min of eve-fame resisting Hellicity's Hulkageddon --which dove away noobs from the game --with an event called GrieferGeddon. Now this is gone and I can't even talk about it here or a Dev who spoke nicely to mat at fanfest will shut this thread down for breaking forum rules. Can you tell me this is the same game where sandbox resistance GrieferGeddon can try to take back high sec from pirates in Hulkageddon? I no longer feel the need to pay for my identity as maxed miner, and un-subed my 2 extra hulks.
Da Gooch	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:18:00 - [25] Originally by: Rylie Gayle Whats the difference between an officer drop in 0.0 worth 5b (created out of thin air) and an Aurum item being bought thats worth 5b? They both inject 5b worth of 'product' into the market with no initial cost. Also it was noted from the alliance tournaments that ships on the aurum market will be in the form of BPCs preferably. Which will probably require the consumption of a t1 item. Again how is that diff than a drop. READ MY LINK FFS
Mos7Wan7ed Gallente Hardcore Industries	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:19:00 - [26] Originally by: Discrodia Okay, here's how PLEX works: You buy the plex. You sell the plex to someone else. You get ISK, they get gametime. You use the ISK to buy a Machariel. People who benefit: CCP: Gets money. PLEX Buyer: Gets gametime. PLEX Seller: Gets ISK which is used to buy a Machariel. Machariel Seller: Gets ISK. Now here is how Aurum items work. You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel. Here's who benefits: CCP: Gets money. PLEX User: Gets Machariel. Now, the difference is that the former runs through the current ingame economy, benefiting several other people. In the latter scenario, only CCP and the PLEX user benefit. Makes sense? THIS And the months of DEV time to create a second currency when none was required. The vanity items could just as easily be on sale for in game ISK. Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes.
Magos Angstbringer Minmatar Pandorum Research Incorporated	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:19:00 - [27] Originally by: Through Actions Originally by: Llambda Edited by: Llambda on 25/06/2011 15:56:25 It's baffling that so many people are so entirely ignorant to how the present money supply and plex system works. It's completely different because the ISK you're getting from plex is coming from some other player who acquired that ISK through existing gameplay mechanics. By contrast, AUR is generated out of thin air when you turn a plex in. Regardless of how you, personally, acquired the plex that went into the aurum, real money was directly spent to bring that aurum into existence. The same cannot be said of ISK, the only faucets for which exist in the context of gameplay mechanics (missions, ratting, etc.). You're comparing a currency faucet to a mere exchange of goods. This also means that, for anything sold for AUR, it's possible to completely bypass the Eve ingame economy. This is not true for plex->isk transactions. WRONG. When you buy a PLEX from CCP (not off the market) the PLEX is created out of thin air. Aurum creates an isk sink which should actually help reduce inflation. I really don't see the problem here.
Scerolikk Teromni Atrocious Order	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:19:00 - [28] Edited by: Scerolikk Teromni on 25/06/2011 16:23:44 Originally by: Discrodia You buy the plex. You sell the plex to someone else. You get ISK, they get gametime. You use the ISK to buy a Machariel. People who benefit: CCP (one entity): Gets money. PLEX Buyer (one person): Gets gametime. PLEX Seller (one person): Gets ISK which is used to buy a Machariel. Machariel Seller (one person): Gets ISK which is used to buy another BPC and more minerals to build another Machariel. Miner (potentially several people): Gets ISK which is used to buy a new Hulk after it was destroyed by the Machariel built from his minerals. Blueprint Copier (one person): Gets ISK for his blueprints and swims in money. Traders (potentially hundreds of people): Get ISK the entire time for playing the market and moving all the aforementioned things around. FTFY: When you buy one Machariel on the market, you are potentially affecting the lives of hundreds of people. When you buy one with Aurum, you ruin EVE. -- Quote: Are you moving beyond VANITY AUR items?
Demon Azrakel Gallente Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:22:00 - [29] Edited by: Demon Azrakel on 25/06/2011 16:22:19 Originally by: Through Actions Originally by: Llambda Edited by: Llambda on 25/06/2011 15:56:25 It's baffling that so many people are so entirely ignorant to how the present money supply and plex system works. It's completely different because the ISK you're getting from plex is coming from some other player who acquired that ISK through existing gameplay mechanics. By contrast, AUR is generated out of thin air when you turn a plex in. Regardless of how you, personally, acquired the plex that went into the aurum, real money was directly spent to bring that aurum into existence. The same cannot be said of ISK, the only faucets for which exist in the context of gameplay mechanics (missions, ratting, etc.). You're comparing a currency faucet to a mere exchange of goods. This also means that, for anything sold for AUR, it's possible to completely bypass the Eve ingame economy. This is not true for plex->isk transactions. WRONG. When you buy a PLEX from CCP (not off the market) the PLEX is created out of thin air. Aurum creates an isk sink which should actually help reduce inflation. I really don't see the problem here. You are fucking retarded.
Jennifer Starling Imperial Navy Forum Patrol	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:25:00 - [30] Edited by: Jennifer Starling on 25/06/2011 16:26:59 Finding it hard to understand why people are upset over aur for items? EVE players just get upset easily. They¦re often the autistic spreadsheet warrior type who doesn¦t like changes. It upsets them, they feel like they are losing grip on their little world and they get very emotional. Yes it¦s a bit sad but they can¦t help it. They're not upset over the items, they're upset because internal documents showed that they may have plans to sell stuff for RL cash, which may unbalance the economy and give new players the opportunity to get more advantages.

Starkiller Adams Gallente Interwebs Cooter Explosion Important Internet Spaceship League	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:25:00 - [31] Reasons i am concern/upset 1) It wont stop at vanity items 2) Anomaly Nerf a while back 3) CCP refusing to fix parts of the game that NEED to be address(low sec,faction warfare) 4) CCP ignoring the player base that go it where it is and made eve what it is 5) Being talked down to by CCP Zulu's response 6) the arrogance of himlar's email Not reasons im upset 1)Incarna i dont mind walking in station i kinda like it actually just wish i had somewhere to go I am/was an eve fan boy i wont say im rage quitting right now. but my second account will not be re subbed until i feel the direction the game is something that i want to be a part of. I loved this game because it was insanely hard and such a niche group. And if u cant really get why people are upset i have this to tell you. People have invested years into this gotten close to the people they play with so when something that they perceive will make all there work invalid or bring to an end the thing that made u part of a community people will fight for it.
Malice Redeemer	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:25:00 - [32] Originally by: Rylie Gayle Whats the difference between an officer drop in 0.0 worth 5b (created out of thin air) and an Aurum item being bought thats worth 5b? They both inject 5b worth of 'product' into the market with no initial cost. Also it was noted from the alliance tournaments that ships on the aurum market will be in the form of BPCs preferably. Which will probably require the consumption of a t1 item. Again how is that diff than a drop. the game a.k.a. the players control WHO gets the drop. With MT CCP gives the drops to those who spend the most money.
xestria	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:26:00 - [33] Originally by: Discrodia You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel. No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship.
Ammzi	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:27:00 - [34] Originally by: Rylie Gayle honestly wouldn't mind a new server specifically for this, even if they have to cut back from TQ. Just THIS shows how OP is seriously mentally ........
Nartol Trild	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:29:00 - [35] Edited by: Nartol Trild on 25/06/2011 16:30:15 Originally by: xestria Originally by: Discrodia You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel. No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship. But your still ruining the eve economy.
Daedalus II Helios Research	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:32:00 - [36] Edited by: Daedalus II on 25/06/2011 16:38:14 Originally by: Nartol Trild Edited by: Nartol Trild on 25/06/2011 16:30:15 Originally by: xestria Originally by: Discrodia You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel. No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship. But your still ruining the eve economy. How is a blueprint copy ruining the economy? As long as the NeX shop works like any other faction shop I don't see how there is a problem. New items are delivered as BPCs. Modified items use one or more trade in items. Stuff that aren't produced normally is output directly (implants, clothes). ___________ Interested in incursions? Join Helios Research!
Nartol Trild	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:35:00 - [37] Originally by: Daedalus II Originally by: Nartol Trild Edited by: Nartol Trild on 25/06/2011 16:30:15 Originally by: xestria Originally by: Discrodia You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel. No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship. But your still ruining the eve economy. How is a blueprint copy ruining the economy? Because you bypass the in game mechanism to acquire the blueprints. This isnt rocket science.
Master Gotama	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:36:00 - [38] Originally by: Llambda It's baffling that so many people are so entirely ignorant to how the present money supply and plex system works. That is exactly the type of customer that CCP wants! They are encouraging the e-tards to flock to this game with this NEX shop. Its actually one of the secondary drawbacks to AUR; we get more 12 year-olds that want to play barbie online.
xestria	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:38:00 - [39] Originally by: Nartol Trild Edited by: Nartol Trild on 25/06/2011 16:30:15 Originally by: xestria Originally by: Discrodia You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel. No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship. But your still ruining the eve economy. Nope. As you know, blueprints are seeded by NPCs. It makes no difference to the economy whether rare or unique blueprints enter the game through the LP store, a NPC research station or the NEX store.
Rylie Gayle	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:39:00 - [40] Originally by: Malice Redeemer Originally by: Rylie Gayle Whats the difference between an officer drop in 0.0 worth 5b (created out of thin air) and an Aurum item being bought thats worth 5b? They both inject 5b worth of 'product' into the market with no initial cost. Also it was noted from the alliance tournaments that ships on the aurum market will be in the form of BPCs preferably. Which will probably require the consumption of a t1 item. Again how is that diff than a drop. the game a.k.a. the players control WHO gets the drop. With MT CCP gives the drops to those who spend the most money. Ok, think of it this way, you go out to 0.0 and you find an officer, or just a faction spawn. You get a drop with 2b. 2b worth of product was just spawned. You go on the aurum market and spawn an item. 2b worth of product was just spawned. First instance only required someone to kill a npc. Not all that hard, yes it requires permissions to be in certain spaces or sneakiness to get to the npc. But, not all that hard. Second instance someone used RL cash to buy an item, giving CCP more revenue, and doing nothing more than something that equates to an officer spawn. And as I said before do you really think THAT MANY people will be spending 1000's of RL $ to get stuff like that in eve? And even so really does it matter? EVE has been a sand box yea, but introducing RL money into it really just includes RL into the sandbox. Imagine someone flying a ishkone scorp bought with RL money getting taken down because a dramiel. I'd find that hilarious. They have economic advisors, how well they do they're job is up in the air. But look at the RL economic systems get **ed up all the time, and they are dealt with. People live with it, deal with it, and get over it. Its way to ing early to say this is going to ruin the economy. And as for that internal FEARLESS document and the Hilmar email, so the what. I work for an energy company that I've seen plenty of internal documents I wish I hadn't because of talks of closing down this ending this contract, etc and stuff that would affect my job. But its just speculation and conversation and 10 years later I'm in the same location I was working on the same contract because the conversation ended in the way that favored it. Don't get ed because you seen the inside of the corporate EVE world. It was none of your business to be there in the first place. As far as Hilmars email, like I said I work in a energy company. You know how much we get? And our high ups tell us all the time that we need to just stay the course and we get 'predictable responses' from out customers... why? Because its true. Yea, its insulting, but guess what. None of your **ing business.

Tony 2fingers Gallente The Scope	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:40:00 - [41] Edited by: Tony 2fingers on 25/06/2011 16:41:45 I think it is about the actual Idea itself, let me explain. This is not some cheap Korean game that is not a Subscription based game its a monthly sub model. Now, Eve isn't the first to want a MT store, but, it has already pulled one item that would have had a Direct impact on the only true player driven economy, the Scorpion model. It wasn't a skin that was applied to a existing in game ship, it was a ship that was going to be introduced that by passed the whole economic model of the game. The whole way the MT store was implemented shows that it was definitely being used to Milk the player base for as much Real World money as possible. It is a classic example of wanting your cake and eating it too. The whole ide of a MT store is a serious put off to most players, unfortunately, some people will buy and claim it doesnt affect anyone else so whats the big deal? Well it does affect everyone, becuase of the players, " I want it now", attitude, it has long term ripple affects. Show me one example of a MT store that has not eventually added in game items that affet a players ability to perform better in game, whether it is just the ability to level faster , or have access to better weapons then usually possible for most of the player base. With the exception of Wow( which only sells pets and mounts)most other MT stores have gon e down the route of player enhancement. In the leaked internal document, it even shows the model for Dust and that it will have in game power items. It is not a far leap to say that would eventually be the over riding model for all of CCP's MT stores. You wouldnt have one model for one game that is part of a persitent universe and not have the same type for the other game of same Universe. Currently, Star Trek Online has a MT store, that originally was only to hold so called Vanity items, well that lasted about 6 months, and then started to introduce Ships with better stats, Bridge Officers with special abilities only available through the MT store. This is what most people not in favor of a MT store are afraid of happening. Eve is special in the world of MMO's. it is the only game to have actually listened to the player base since launch, and has grown becuase of the Dev/Player interaction. Eve could never have reached the Heights it has achieved if not for that close relationship. To all the players that have been here over the years, this feels like a slap in the face and the beginning of the end for a project that was truly loved by everyone involved, whether they were a single player exploring the vastness of Eve, or the Power block player such as NAGA or B.O.B, or Eve University. This is why people are upset over this MT store.
Daedalus II Helios Research	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:40:00 - [42] Originally by: xestria Nope. As you know, blueprints are seeded by NPCs. It makes no difference to the economy whether rare or unique blueprints enter the game through the LP store, a NPC research station or the NEX store. This. ___________ Interested in incursions? Join Helios Research!
Rylie Gayle	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:41:00 - [43] Originally by: Nartol Trild Edited by: Nartol Trild on 25/06/2011 16:30:15 Originally by: xestria Originally by: Discrodia You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel. No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship. But your still ruining the eve economy. Where'd you obtain your economic degree? The Greeks need you.
Nartol Trild	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:41:00 - [44] Edited by: Nartol Trild on 25/06/2011 16:44:55 Originally by: xestria Originally by: Nartol Trild Edited by: Nartol Trild on 25/06/2011 16:30:15 Originally by: xestria Originally by: Discrodia You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel. No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship. But your still ruining the eve economy. Nope. As you know, blueprints are seeded by NPCs. It makes no difference to the economy whether rare or unique blueprints enter the game through the LP store, a NPC research station or the NEX store. The man grinding missions in Curse is the same as the man mining veldspar. If you can buy either outside of the game mechanics, your ruining the economy. You cannot spawn infinite blueprint copies without investing time in the game, if its on noble exchange you can spawn as many copys as you can invest real life money. Do you get it now?
Ola Isu	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:44:00 - [45] Quote: People who benefit: CCP: Gets money. PLEX Buyer: Gets gametime. PLEX Seller: Gets ISK which is used to buy a Machariel. Machariel Seller: Gets ISK. Here's who benefits: CCP: Gets money. PLEX User: Gets Machariel. Old system-- PLEX Seller: Gets ISK to buy Mach. CCP: Gets money. RMT Buyer: Gets ISK to buy 4 Machs. RMT Seller: Gets money. PLEX Buyer: RMT Seller buys game time to bot. Machariel Seller: Mission bot provides BPC LP reward. Miner Bot provides minerals for production. RMT Buyer kills Plex Seller Mach with 4 Machs. New system-- CCP: Gets money. PLEX User: Gets Machariel. RMT Seller: Gets mad. RMT Buyer: Gets mad. RMT foment useful herd instinct.
Llambda Space Llama Industries	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:44:00 - [46] Edited by: Llambda on 25/06/2011 16:45:51 Originally by: xestria Originally by: Nartol Trild Edited by: Nartol Trild on 25/06/2011 16:30:15 Originally by: xestria Originally by: Discrodia You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel. No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship. But your still ruining the eve economy. Nope. As you know, blueprints are seeded by NPCs. It makes no difference to the economy whether rare or unique blueprints enter the game through the LP store, a NPC research station or the NEX store. Actually, it does. It's the currency that matters - not the distribution mechanism. All other currencies presently have to be generated by some form of gameplay, primarily mission running and gameplay. No matter the means by which you, personally, acquire something in Eve at present, someone had to go through the in-game work to acquire it. It may not have been YOU who did the work - maybe you bought some GTCs, sold some plexes, and bought it off contracts - but SOMEBODY did the work. Somebody ran missions to farm LP to trade in for that Mach BPC. By contrast, with Aur, you can convert cash directly to an item without any player having to do anything in game. This makes it an item faucet that is constrained NOT by player time and effort in-game, but solely by the amount of real cash people are willing to spend on the game. This is fine for vanity items/internet space barbie. It is decidedly less fine for anything with function.
Daedalus II Helios Research	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:47:00 - [47] Originally by: Tony 2fingers Currently, Star Trek Online has a MT store, that originally was only to hold so called Vanity items, well that lasted about 6 months, and then started to introduce Ships with better stats, Bridge Officers with special abilities only available through the MT store. This is what most people not in favor of a MT store are afraid of happening. Remember though that there is one important exception between this and EVE. In EVE these items can be resold for isk. Or bought directly by buying a PLEX with isk and use it. This means that anyone can have access to these things, even those that don't want to pay RL money for it. ___________ Interested in incursions? Join Helios Research!
Glyken Touchon Gallente Independent Alchemists	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:47:00 - [48] Originally by: xestria Originally by: Discrodia You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel. No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship. except that the NEX store can't sell BPCs or do trade ins in this iteration. _________ Tippia's analysis http://meissaanunthiel.blogspot.com/2011/06/recent-ccp-****-ups.htmlMeissa's blog[/url
Daedalus II Helios Research	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:52:00 - [49] Originally by: Llambda All other currencies presently have to be generated by some form of gameplay, primarily mission running and ratting. No matter the means by which you, personally, acquire something in Eve at present, someone had to go through the in-game work to acquire it. It may not have been YOU who did the work - maybe you bought some GTCs, sold some plexes, and bought it off contracts - but SOMEBODY did the work. Somebody ran missions to farm LP to trade in for that Mach BPC. By contrast, with Aur, you can convert cash directly to an item without any player having to do anything in game. This makes it an item faucet that is constrained NOT by player time and effort in-game, but solely by the amount of real cash people are willing to spend on the game. This is fine for vanity items/internet space barbie. It is decidedly less fine for anything with function. This is all perfectly true. But how can you be so sure EVE gameplay will be ruined just because a new way to aquire items emerges. SO FAR all ways to get something has been through gameplay. This doesn't mean it's the ONLY viable way to get something. Let's play with the idea that we get a new "mineral X" that can only be aquired through buying it with RL money. Then say that mineral X is used when building certain ships. That way it's incorporated in an intuitive way into the game, without being strange or immersion breaking. ___________ Interested in incursions? Join Helios Research!
Daedalus II Helios Research	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:55:00 - [50] Originally by: Glyken Touchon Originally by: xestria Originally by: Discrodia You buy the plex. It gets turned into Aurum. You get a magic instant Machariel. No you don't. You get a blueprint not a ship. except that the NEX store can't sell BPCs or do trade ins in this iteration. And neither does it pop out instant magic Machariels. ___________ Interested in incursions? Join Helios Research!

xestria	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:57:00 - [51] Originally by: Nartol Trild The man grinding missions in Curse is the same as the man mining veldspar. If you can buy either outside of the game mechanics, your ruining the economy. You cannot spawn infinite blueprint copies without investing time in the game, if its on noble exchange you can spawn as many copys as you can invest real life money. Do you get it now? You've been able to do this for years, try this Buy some plex with cash, sell plex for isk. Buy a Nidhoggur BPO from a NPC seller for a billion isk. Repeat.
Agrikaan Amarr Defensores Fidei Curatores Veritatis Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:58:00 - [52] If you dont understand, fine, try not to read or think, just do what other tells you to think and do. And above all, don't argue against CCP, just pay the fees and STFU. Its their view on you anyway.
Llambda Space Llama Industries	Posted - 2011.06.25 16:58:00 - [53] Originally by: Daedalus II But how can you be so sure EVE gameplay will be ruined just because a new way to aquire items emerges. Becuase Eve IS its economy. That IS the game. Something that bypasses the Eve economy entirely is essentially bypassing the game itself. Quote: SO FAR all ways to get something has been through gameplay. This doesn't mean it's the ONLY viable way to get something. It is the mechanism around which the entire rest of the game revolves. Quote: Let's play with the idea that we get a new "mineral X" that can only be aquired through buying it with RL money. Then say that mineral X is used when building certain ships. That way it's incorporated in an intuitive way into the game, without being strange or immersion breaking. That's... not an improvement. You're still directly introducing items to the game economy in exchange for cash instead of gameplay. All you have done is made it a lower-level item.
Llambda Space Llama Industries	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:02:00 - [54] Originally by: xestria You've been able to do this for years, try this Buy some plex with cash, sell plex for isk. Buy a Nidhoggur BPO from a NPC seller for a billion isk. Repeat. That ISK came from somewhere. Where did it come from? Note: Not "Where did YOU get it from?" The question is, "Where did it come from?" Or, alternatively, where did it originate? The ability to convert plex to isk and then isk to nidhoggur BPOs from an NPC is ultimately constrained by the fact that every time you do that, ISK is destroyed. Do it enough times and you would run out of ISK until players introduced more to the economy through in-game activities. This is not the case with Aurum.
xestria	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:05:00 - [55] Originally by: Llambda Actually, it does. It's the currency that matters - not the distribution mechanism. All other currencies presently have to be generated by some form of gameplay, primarily mission running and ratting. No matter the means by which you, personally, acquire something in Eve at present, someone had to go through the in-game work to acquire it. It may not have been YOU who did the work - maybe you bought some GTCs, sold some plexes, and bought it off contracts - but SOMEBODY did the work. Somebody ran missions to farm LP to trade in for that Mach BPC. By contrast, with Aur, you can convert cash directly to an item without any player having to do anything in game. This makes it an item faucet that is constrained NOT by player time and effort in-game, but solely by the amount of real cash people are willing to spend on the game. This is fine for vanity items/internet space barbie. It is decidedly less fine for anything with function. You're right, it's a faucet, however compared to missions or other forms of gameplay it's a ridiculously insignificant faucet. But supply will be controlled by AUR prices of these items. If a t-shirt costs $20, how much do you think a T3 battleship blueprint will cost? Seriously, it's going to be well over $1000. No need to be worried about runaway supply with those kind of prices.
Daedalus II Helios Research	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:07:00 - [56] Edited by: Daedalus II on 25/06/2011 17:09:05 Originally by: Llambda Quote: SO FAR all ways to get something has been through gameplay. This doesn't mean it's the ONLY viable way to get something. It is the mechanism around which the entire rest of the game revolves. Not exactly true. I give you: Datacores. Given you have to have a certain standing to start using the R&D agents. But it's a one time deal, once you have it, you have it. After you have started your R&D agent it will produce datacores with 0 work from your end. All that is needed is time. Datacores haven't messed up the game as far as I know. Also SP is given us through time as well. I'd say that is a pretty significant game element. So currently we have two ways of getting stuff: * Through gameplay * Through time (datacores, SP) Why wouldn't it work to add a third way to get stuff: * Through RL cash I'm not saying I'm thinking this is a good OR bad idea, I'm just saying, lets be a bit open-minded before we start lagging out Jita like a three year old that doesn't get what he wants. ___________ Interested in incursions? Join Helios Research!
Ola Isu	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:08:00 - [57] Originally by: Llambda Originally by: xestria You've been able to do this for years, try this Buy some plex with cash, sell plex for isk. Buy a Nidhoggur BPO from a NPC seller for a billion isk. Repeat. That ISK came from somewhere. Where did it come from? Note: Not "Where did YOU get it from?" The question is, "Where did it come from?" Or, alternatively, where did it originate? The ability to convert plex to isk and then isk to nidhoggur BPOs from an NPC is ultimately constrained by the fact that every time you do that, ISK is destroyed. Do it enough times and you would run out of ISK until players introduced more to the economy through in-game activities. This is not the case with Aurum. The isk came from mission, rat, sanctum bounty bots. The ruin the economy meme is a useful tool that fails upon closest inspection.
Llambda Space Llama Industries	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:12:00 - [58] Originally by: xestria Originally by: Llambda Actually, it does. It's the currency that matters - not the distribution mechanism. All other currencies presently have to be generated by some form of gameplay, primarily mission running and ratting. No matter the means by which you, personally, acquire something in Eve at present, someone had to go through the in-game work to acquire it. It may not have been YOU who did the work - maybe you bought some GTCs, sold some plexes, and bought it off contracts - but SOMEBODY did the work. Somebody ran missions to farm LP to trade in for that Mach BPC. By contrast, with Aur, you can convert cash directly to an item without any player having to do anything in game. This makes it an item faucet that is constrained NOT by player time and effort in-game, but solely by the amount of real cash people are willing to spend on the game. This is fine for vanity items/internet space barbie. It is decidedly less fine for anything with function. You're right, it's a faucet, however compared to missions or other forms of gameplay it's a ridiculously insignificant faucet. But supply will be controlled by AUR prices of these items. If a t-shirt costs $20, how much do you think a T3 battleship blueprint will cost? Seriously, it's going to be well over $1000. No need to be worried about runaway supply with those kind of prices. It's not even really a concern of runaway supply, it's the simple fact that the normal ingame mechanics are being completely bypassed. That aside, however, it would be foolish to believe the prices will remain where they are. They're clearly not at an optimal point on the price-elasticity curve. They would quite surely make a lot more money by bringing the price down, and I'm quite certain that will happen before too long. I suspect that the present prices reflect a desperate need on CCP's part to burn up plexes that they don't have the cash to back.
Daedalus II Helios Research	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:14:00 - [59] Originally by: xestria You're right, it's a faucet, however compared to missions or other forms of gameplay it's a ridiculously insignificant faucet. But supply will be controlled by AUR prices of these items. If a t-shirt costs $20, how much do you think a T3 battleship blueprint will cost? Seriously, it's going to be well over $1000. No need to be worried about runaway supply with those kind of prices. Agreed. And if people are concerned about isk faucets, I think they should be a lot more concerned about the widespread macroing than a few overpriced NeX items. Those macro bots is an isk faucent of a whole other dimension. ___________ Interested in incursions? Join Helios Research!
Vasha Rin	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:15:00 - [60] Edited by: Vasha Rin on 25/06/2011 17:17:25 I am upset about Aurum for items (beyond vanity) because I think it will change the EVE economy in such a way that my primary fun activities in it will be diminished or destroyed (mining, planets, industry). Instead of spending my time each month working and planning, it will be more economical to just buy ISK, buy ships, etc., and do nothing but PvP. Even missions will be pointless, because they plan to sell standing for Aurum as well. I am fraid that is the kind of game CCP wants to make - nothing but spaceship fighting, no player economy, no depth, no consequences. No immersion. I un-subbed one account yesterday, I have 3 months left on the main - if something positive doesn't develop for people like me who care about the player-driven economy, I'll have to say goodbye. I really like this game, too, and have since 2006. THERE IS NO OTHER GAME LIKE EVE. Things like this latest betrayal are making me feel old, because they give me the message that games are a stupid pastime for ignorant children. It's a sign that there is no goal in life worth pursuing, even the most trivial, because every interaction with life is another opportunity to be betrayed. Yeah that may sound like a whiny stretch, but I think that's where the logic goes if you follow it to the end.

Llambda Space Llama Industries	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:16:00 - [61] Edited by: Llambda on 25/06/2011 17:17:33 Originally by: Ola Isu The isk came from mission, rat, sanctum bounty bots. Otherwise known as "Gameplay". Quote: Not exactly true. I give you: Datacores. Given you have to have a certain standing to start using the R&D agents. But it's a one time deal, once you have it, you have it. After you have started your R&D agent it will produce datacores with 0 work from your end. All that is needed is time. Datacores haven't messed up the game as far as I know. Also SP is given us through time as well. I'd say that is a pretty significant game element. So currently we have two ways of getting stuff: * Through gameplay * Through time (datacores, SP) Datacores are gameplay. Your assertion that they are not because you do not have to do much with them after you make a huge initial investment of time and effort is silly. They both originate and are wholly consumed within the game itself. The same goes for SP. Quote: And if people are concerned about isk faucets, I think they should be a lot more concerned about the widespread macroing than a few overpriced NeX items. Those macro bots is an isk faucent of a whole other dimension. Aurum is not an ISK faucet, Aurum is an item faucet.
Rylie Gayle	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:19:00 - [62] What it all boils down to is this is EVE, a game made by CCP. They need to make money to continue as a corporation. Yes we are paying for games such as DUST and WoD aswell, but EVE CANNOT last forever nothing can... DUST is going to be an addition to the EVE world as well as another game entirely. They have to make sacrifices to ensure the future viability to the eve world and the CCP corporation. We have to make sacrifices as well, they may not make all the right moves in our eyes but its not our game, we just pay to play their game.
Symoen	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:20:00 - [63] Originally by: Llambda Originally by: xestria You've been able to do this for years, try this Buy some plex with cash, sell plex for isk. Buy a Nidhoggur BPO from a NPC seller for a billion isk. Repeat. That ISK came from somewhere. Where did it come from? Note: Not "Where did YOU get it from?" The question is, "Where did it come from?" Or, alternatively, where did it originate? The ability to convert plex to isk and then isk to nidhoggur BPOs from an NPC is ultimately constrained by the fact that every time you do that, ISK is destroyed. Do it enough times and you would run out of ISK until players introduced more to the economy through in-game activities. This is not the case with Aurum. This above all is the concern all of us know will come to pass if we allow CCP to continue down this road.
Kerrisone	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:22:00 - [64] Originally by: Rylie Gayle What it all boils down to is this is EVE, a game made by CCP. They need to make money to continue as a corporation. Yes we are paying for games such as DUST and WoD aswell, but EVE CANNOT last forever nothing can... DUST is going to be an addition to the EVE world as well as another game entirely. They have to make sacrifices to ensure the future viability to the eve world and the CCP corporation. We have to make sacrifices as well, they may not make all the right moves in our eyes but its not our game, we just pay to play their game. I agree except on the sacrifices as what sacrifices and why are important I and probably others think they are/will make the wrong ones but it is their decision to make just as it ours to tell them they are wrong and/or leave. It isn't because of Monocles FFS.
Daedalus II Helios Research	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:26:00 - [65] Originally by: Llambda Datacores are gameplay. Your assertion that they are not because you do not have to do much with them after you make a huge initial investment of time and effort is silly. They both originate and are wholly consumed within the game itself. The same goes for SP. So let's say that you need to pay 50 mil isk and have a certain standing to be able to access the NeX the first time, then the NeX would be gameplay, right? Also you conviniently seems to have missed that SP also is given to you over time, with no initial investment what so ever. ___________ Interested in incursions? Join Helios Research!
Bloodpetal Mimidae Risk Solutions	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:29:00 - [66] How about the potential to charge you "convenience fees". You want more fitting slots? Pay us, don't worry about the fact that you already pay for multiple accounts for a full service client. No, let's charge you for making things convenient for you while you already pay for the game.
Llambda Space Llama Industries	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:31:00 - [67] Edited by: Llambda on 25/06/2011 17:33:55 Originally by: Daedalus II Originally by: Llambda Datacores are gameplay. Your assertion that they are not because you do not have to do much with them after you make a huge initial investment of time and effort is silly. They both originate and are wholly consumed within the game itself. The same goes for SP. So let's say that you need to pay 50 mil isk and have a certain standing to be able to access the NeX the first time, then the NeX would be gameplay, right? What part of, "It is generated and is consumed solely within the game did you fail to grasp? Adding standing to NeX would not change the fact that the items generated from it are done so in a transaction that takes place outside of the context of the game. It is a cash transaction with plex, and then aurum, serving as proxies. Quote: Also you conviniently seems to have missed that SP also is given to you over time, with no initial investment what so ever. SP are generated solely within the game. It's not the amount of "work" or "resources" or "time" that is relevant here, it is their point of origin that counts. Incidentally, I also can't buy anything with my SPs. At BEST I can trade them for ISK.... ...and where did that ISK come from, again? From gameplay.
Nth Ares	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:32:00 - [68] Originally by: Daedalus II Originally by: Llambda Datacores are gameplay. Your assertion that they are not because you do not have to do much with them after you make a huge initial investment of time and effort is silly. They both originate and are wholly consumed within the game itself. The same goes for SP. So let's say that you need to pay 50 mil isk and have a certain standing to be able to access the NeX the first time, then the NeX would be gameplay, right? Also you conviniently seems to have missed that SP also is given to you over time, with no initial investment what so ever. The gameplay "rule" isn't black and white, it's a nuanced concept. NEX would be gameplay if AUR were earned by taking actions in game, or only bought with ISK generated from in-game activities. Some would include PLEX trade as part of that, some would not. There isn't a Bible on the subject. SP accrues only while you are paid up with CCP. I would say SP gain is a core feature of your subscription, and that your CHOICE of skills, your growth strategy, is the gameplay. Also many skill books do cost ISK.
Adrauss 9 Caldari Neuromancer Inc	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:34:00 - [69] Everything about this game , the items , the economy , sp and everything all comes from RL . You pay your monthly fee . Even if you plex all your accounts , someone is paying your monthly fee for you. Personally i couldn't give a monkey about Nex . if people wish to spend money on Vanity items , then so be it . If people want to spend money on PLEX , then so be it . What i would like to see is more stern responce from CCP , anyone who has played ww2online will know what DOC can be like , we need DOC to put some of you lot straight in this game. lol
Daedalus II Helios Research	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:38:00 - [70] Originally by: Llambda Originally by: Daedalus II Originally by: Llambda Datacores are gameplay. Your assertion that they are not because you do not have to do much with them after you make a huge initial investment of time and effort is silly. They both originate and are wholly consumed within the game itself. The same goes for SP. So let's say that you need to pay 50 mil isk and have a certain standing to be able to access the NeX the first time, then the NeX would be gameplay, right? What part of, "It is generated and is consumed solely within the game did you fail to grasp? Adding standing to NeX would not change the fact that the items generated from it are done so in a transaction that takes place outside of the context of the game. It is a cash transaction with plex, and then aurum, serving as proxies. Quote: Also you conviniently seems to have missed that SP also is given to you over time, with no initial investment what so ever. SP are generated solely within the game. It's not the amount of "work" or "resources" or "time" that is relevant here, it is their point of origin that counts. NeX items are also produced solely within the game! The only difference being that instead of time as input there is RL money as input. How is this any different? It's still within game parameters. Have you ever heard of the notion "Time is Money"? here we literally exchange time for money. Having said that I'm the first person to agree that you shouldn't be able to for example buy SP for money, that would be horrible. But I think that some items can be bought for money without destroying the game, if handled correctly. Of course we don't know if CCP will "stay behind the line" and handle this stuff correctly, but that's not for me to speculate about. ___________ Interested in incursions? Join Helios Research!

Llambda Space Llama Industries	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:40:00 - [71] Originally by: Daedalus II NeX items are also produced solely within the game! No, NeX items are spawned out of nothing in a direct exchange for cash. I realize it's a subtle nuance, but it is an extremely important one.
MarlboroMenthals	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:43:00 - [72] i get the differece between plex isk and thin air thing but wouldnt it take tons and tons of real money to aurum transactions to even make a dent in the eve economy?
Daedalus II Helios Research	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:44:00 - [73] Originally by: Llambda Originally by: Daedalus II NeX items are also produced solely within the game! No, NeX items are spawned out of nothing in a direct exchange for cash. I realize it's a subtle nuance, but it is an extremely important one. And SP don't spawn out of nothing in exchange for cash either right? ___________ Interested in incursions? Join Helios Research!
Gumpy Nighthawk Amarr Roving Guns Inc. RAZOR Alliance	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:44:00 - [74] The moment i need to pay AUR to press f1-f7 is the moment i quit eve, other than that i don't really care Nothing in education is so astonishing as the amount of ignorance it accumulates in the form of facts.
xestria	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:46:00 - [75] Originally by: Llambda It's not even really a concern of runaway supply, it's the simple fact that the normal ingame mechanics are being completely bypassed. That aside, however, it would be foolish to believe the prices will remain where they are. They're clearly not at an optimal point on the price-elasticity curve. They would quite surely make a lot more money by bringing the price down, and I'm quite certain that will happen before too long. I suspect that the present prices reflect a desperate need on CCP's part to burn up plexes that they don't have the cash to back. Mechanics aren't set in stone. That's not reason in itself to be opposed to the NEX store. Your arguments have been boiled away to nothing I'm afraid. You're now left opposing the NEX store based on something that you think will happen in the future - i.e. lowering AUR prices. Have you considered that CCP has set NEX prices based on a profit curve AND a parameters based on ingame economic impacts? The high prices probably don't hit the profit maximisation and suggest they've taken other factors in to account. Similarly, PLEX as it stands is unsustainable - it's being used to speculate and there is too much of it in the system, with not enough people using it to pay for gametime.
Val'Dore Word Bearers of Chaos Word of Chaos Undivided	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:54:00 - [76] Originally by: Rylie Gayle Read the EULA, nothing in this game belongs to you. There is one thing that CCP doesn't own: the time we all put into the game. ~No matter what happens, somebody will find a way to take it too seriously.~ Tiericide
Christopher AET Segmentum Solar Intergalactic Exports Group	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:55:00 - [77] Originally by: Daedalus II Originally by: Llambda Originally by: Daedalus II NeX items are also produced solely within the game! No, NeX items are spawned out of nothing in a direct exchange for cash. I realize it's a subtle nuance, but it is an extremely important one. And SP don't spawn out of nothing in exchange for cash either right? SP is a game mechanic. NeX for vanity sits outside of game mechanics so is fine. NeX for gameplay items subverts game mechanics and as such devalues it.
Leon Razor Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.25 17:59:00 - [78] Originally by: Daedalus II NeX items are also produced solely within the game! The only difference being that instead of time as input there is RL money as input. How is this any different? It's still within game parameters. Have you ever heard of the notion "Time is Money"? here we literally exchange time for money. Having said that I'm the first person to agree that you shouldn't be able to for example buy SP for money, that would be horrible. But I think that some items can be bought for money without destroying the game, if handled correctly. Of course we don't know if CCP will "stay behind the line" and handle this stuff correctly, but that's not for me to speculate about. Slightly extreme example to why time for money conversion breaks EVE: My big alliance just lost 10 capitals in a fleet, normally we would need time and ISK to reinforce and defend our space with more capitals, but after the fight we just buy 20 more dreads for AUR and crush the invading force.
Da Gooch	Posted - 2011.06.25 18:03:00 - [79] Originally by: Daedalus II Edited by: Daedalus II on 25/06/2011 17:09:05 Originally by: Llambda Quote: SO FAR all ways to get something has been through gameplay. This doesn't mean it's the ONLY viable way to get something. It is the mechanism around which the entire rest of the game revolves. Not exactly true. I give you: Datacores. Given you have to have a certain standing to start using the R&D agents. But it's a one time deal, once you have it, you have it. After you have started your R&D agent it will produce datacores with 0 work from your end. All that is needed is time. Datacores haven't messed up the game as far as I know. Also SP is given us through time as well. I'd say that is a pretty significant game element. So currently we have two ways of getting stuff: * Through gameplay * Through time (datacores, SP) Why wouldn't it work to add a third way to get stuff: * Through RL cash I'm not saying I'm thinking this is a good OR bad idea, I'm just saying, lets be a bit open-minded before we start lagging out Jita like a three year old that doesn't get what he wants. you're a ****ing moron
xestria	Posted - 2011.06.25 18:20:00 - [80] Originally by: Leon Razor Slightly extreme example to why time for money conversion breaks EVE: My big alliance just lost 10 capitals in a fleet, normally we would need time and ISK to reinforce and defend our space with more capitals, but after the fight we just buy 20 more dreads for AUR and crush the invading force. Your example is as solid as sponge: 1. You can buy some PLEX and replace your dreadnoughts(?) anyway. No need for the NEX store. 2. It will cost you about 400 euros to do that. How often can you afford to lose 10 dreadnoughts? 3. You'll find blueprints, not ships in the NEX store. 4. You won't be able to buy common items like T1 blueprints in the NEX store.

Leon Razor Gallente	Posted - 2011.06.25 18:40:00 - [81] Originally by: xestria Originally by: Leon Razor Slightly extreme example to why time for money conversion breaks EVE: My big alliance just lost 10 capitals in a fleet, normally we would need time and ISK to reinforce and defend our space with more capitals, but after the fight we just buy 20 more dreads for AUR and crush the invading force. Your example is as solid as sponge: 1. You can buy some PLEX and replace your dreadnoughts(?) anyway. No need for the NEX store. 2. It will cost you about 400 euros to do that. How often can you afford to lose 10 dreadnoughts? 3. You'll find blueprints, not ships in the NEX store. 4. You won't be able to buy common items like T1 blueprints in the NEX store. Fair enough points if they are true, but I think the real issue keeps getting lost: we don't know for sure what will end up in the NeX store and how exactly it will effect game play yet. Recent events have everyone in a speculation frenzy and CCP hasn't answered the "big yellow question" one way or the other. My example may not be that great, but I am absolutely against MT beyond vanity items as I believe it destroys a fundamental part of EVE. I think I'm going to take a step back from all the hype until we hear something more from CCP. They should get at least one chance to respond to all of this on a day where everyone is actually at the office.


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Are you moving beyond VANITY AUR items?