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Explain to me how the NEX store is different than PLEX?

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Tla Atij	Posted - 2011.06.26 01:31:00 - [121] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 01:30:24 Originally by: Tla Atij Tippiaù Economy holds 400M ISK and a 30d/3,500 AUR call option. Why isn't it a 400mil option too? Because you cannot convert it into 400M ISK. àand those colours are still awful. Hmm. Have to try a few other ones. I think there's a disconnect here... I'm quite sure I can make a PLEX into 400 mil ISK.
Nano J	Posted - 2011.06.26 01:34:00 - [122] Originally by: Tla Atij I buy a PLEX with my 400 mil ISK, yes. Both ISK and PLEX are already in game. They only change hands during the trade. Then I transform my PLEX into a BPC. The PLEX is removed. The BPC enters. The BPC now has a value of 400 mil ISK (the same value I bought the PLEX for.) Total value in-game after trading ISK for PLEX: My ISK (400 mil) + seller's PLEX (400 mil) = 800 mil ISK. Total value in-game after transforming PLEX to BPC: My ISK (400 mil, now in Seller's wallet) + my new BPC = 800 mil ISK. Total value injected from thin air: 800 mil ISK - 800 mil ISK = 0 ISK. So where's the new 400M from? The PLEX exists as an item, but the "400M" you're counting with it is applied to the isk used to purchase it. The PLEX itself is only a voucher for an out-of-game good: game time. Using that game time to create an in-game item transfers a RL good into a virtual good. The 400M used to purchase the PLEX and the PLEX itself are in the game at the same time, but they do not occupy the same position in the economy. You're logic is saying that when you buy a PLEX, you're given a PLEX to sell in game as well as 400M in your wallet. You're thinking of the PLEX as a good generated by game mechanics, when the real issue is about its creation from an out-of-game good and its redemption as either another out-of-game good or an in-game good made from thin air. There is never isk created by just buying a PLEX.
Llambda Space Llama Industries	Posted - 2011.06.26 01:36:00 - [123] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 01:31:25 Originally by: Tla Atij Tippiaù Economy holds 400M ISK and a 30d/3,500 AUR call option. Why isn't it a 400mil option too? Because you cannot convert it into 400M ISK. You can only trade it back and forth but never say "ok, remove this item and replace it completely with 400M ISK" ù you can only do that with either 30d or 3,500 AUR. àand those colours are still awful. Hmm. Have to try a few other ones. And for his/her next trick, Tippia will attempt to explain Mozart to a Juggalo.
Tippia Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.26 01:36:00 - [124] Originally by: Tla Atij I think there's a disconnect here... I'm quite sure I can make a PLEX into 400 mil ISK. Ok. How? And I'm not talking about a trade here, because that just moves stuff around. Nothing is being created or deleted. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP
Nano J	Posted - 2011.06.26 01:37:00 - [125] Originally by: Tla Atij Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 01:30:24 Originally by: Tla Atij Tippiaù Economy holds 400M ISK and a 30d/3,500 AUR call option. Why isn't it a 400mil option too? Because you cannot convert it into 400M ISK. àand those colours are still awful. Hmm. Have to try a few other ones. I think there's a disconnect here... I'm quite sure I can make a PLEX into 400 mil ISK. You can't MAKE a PLEX into 400mil, you can sell it for 400mil. Both the PLEX and the 400mil existed before and afterwards; neither are created nor destroyed by the creation or destruction of the other. See my above post...
Tla Atij	Posted - 2011.06.26 01:40:00 - [126] Originally by: Nano J Originally by: Tla Atij I buy a PLEX with my 400 mil ISK, yes. Both ISK and PLEX are already in game. They only change hands during the trade. Then I transform my PLEX into a BPC. The PLEX is removed. The BPC enters. The BPC now has a value of 400 mil ISK (the same value I bought the PLEX for.) Total value in-game after trading ISK for PLEX: My ISK (400 mil) + seller's PLEX (400 mil) = 800 mil ISK. Total value in-game after transforming PLEX to BPC: My ISK (400 mil, now in Seller's wallet) + my new BPC = 800 mil ISK. Total value injected from thin air: 800 mil ISK - 800 mil ISK = 0 ISK. So where's the new 400M from? The PLEX exists as an item, but the "400M" you're counting with it is applied to the isk used to purchase it. The PLEX itself is only a voucher for an out-of-game good: game time. Using that game time to create an in-game item transfers a RL good into a virtual good. The 400M used to purchase the PLEX and the PLEX itself are in the game at the same time, but they do not occupy the same position in the economy. You're logic is saying that when you buy a PLEX, you're given a PLEX to sell in game as well as 400M in your wallet. You're thinking of the PLEX as a good generated by game mechanics, when the real issue is about its creation from an out-of-game good and its redemption as either another out-of-game good or an in-game good made from thin air. There is never isk created by just buying a PLEX. I think I get it, a PLEX isn't ISK. So if I equate both ISK and PLEX in USD, the only problem is that they flow between the in-game universe and RL. So the solution is... "What do you want me to do now, remove PLEX?" -CCP Hilmar on Twitter image Sorry, couldn't help it.
Tla Atij	Posted - 2011.06.26 01:43:00 - [127] To add, so the problem is with PLEX, not AUR or the NeX, they only make it worse?
Tla Atij	Posted - 2011.06.26 01:46:00 - [128] Originally by: Llambda Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 01:31:25 Originally by: Tla Atij Tippiaù Economy holds 400M ISK and a 30d/3,500 AUR call option. Why isn't it a 400mil option too? Because you cannot convert it into 400M ISK. You can only trade it back and forth but never say "ok, remove this item and replace it completely with 400M ISK" ù you can only do that with either 30d or 3,500 AUR. àand those colours are still awful. Hmm. Have to try a few other ones. And for his/her next trick, Tippia will attempt to explain Mozart to a Juggalo. Also I'd like to thank Tippia for taking the time to explain this stuff.
Tippia Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops	Posted - 2011.06.26 01:49:00 - [129] Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 01:49:40 Originally by: Tla Atij To add, so the problem is with PLEX, not AUR or the NeX, they only make it worse? No. The problem comes with AUR. As soon as you get something other than 30d gametime with PLEX (which causes it to exist the economy and balance out its entry), you create value in the economy ù it's particularly apparent in this case since that "something other" is an actual in-game currency you can use to spawn items. The problem can then be compounded if those items are capable of further spawning items that already exist in the market, thereby bypassing the normal economy mechanics that determine the spawn rate of those items. This was almost the case with the IW Scorp, but we dodged that oneà for nowà ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP
Llambda Space Llama Industries	Posted - 2011.06.26 01:53:00 - [130] Edited by: Llambda on 26/06/2011 01:53:56 Originally by: Tla Atij To add, so the problem is with PLEX, not AUR or the NeX, they only make it worse? No, the issue is the AUR/NeX shop items. Consider: Prior to Aurum, every plex was destined to be destroyed in return for gametime. Any given plex could have a lifespan during which it could be traded amongst players, but its presence in the in-game economy would ultimately be completely erased once someone redeemed it for gametime. This isn't the case once a plex can be converted into other in-game items.
Nano J	Posted - 2011.06.26 01:56:00 - [131] Originally by: Tippia As soon as you get something other than 30d gametime with PLEX (which causes it to exist the economy and balance out its entry), you create value in the economy This. A PLEX is a representation of a RL good (either $20 or 30d gametime) that was released in-game to combat isk-selling. It does nothing in-game.
Tla Atij	Posted - 2011.06.26 01:56:00 - [132] Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 26/06/2011 01:49:40 Originally by: Tla Atij To add, so the problem is with PLEX, not AUR or the NeX, they only make it worse? No. The problem comes with AUR. As soon as you get something other than 30d gametime with PLEX (which causes it to exist the economy and balance out its entry), you create value in the economy ù it's particularly apparent in this case since that "something other" is an actual in-game currency you can use to spawn items. The problem can then be compounded if those items are capable of further spawning items that already exist in the market, thereby bypassing the normal economy mechanics that determine the spawn rate of those items. This was almost the case with the IW Scorp, but we dodged that oneà for nowà OK, thanks.
Tla Atij	Posted - 2011.06.26 01:59:00 - [133] Edited by: Tla Atij on 26/06/2011 02:00:18 Originally by: Tippia As soon as you get something other than 30d gametime with PLEX (which causes it to exist the economy and balance out its entry), you create value in the economy So what happens to the economy then? I mean, as more PLEX is broken into AUR, instead of being used for game time.
Akkukkak	Posted - 2011.06.26 02:01:00 - [134] Originally by: Ariel Nova When you turn your PLEX into Aurum you basically turn that $17.50 into free cash for CCP. They won't have to extend a players game time and they won't have to donate it to anything. They will likely use it to fund the other projects they have. so TL:DR PLEX pre-Incarna was a trade service.. ISK for game time. Post-Incarna it's a funding method for CCP's projects. THIS ::::::::: For those that "dont get it" ..... PLEX only transfers ISK from one player to another player. Thats why many people here says "its neutral". The one player giving ISK is rewarded with "Free game time (PLEX)". The other player have the ISK he needs. And CCP have the real money. BUT :::::: PLEX wasnt really "neutral". Because CCP was unable or unwilling to stop the botties. So... those "ChinoRuso" RMT Alliances have now almost unlimited ISK they cannot sell easly. Thats affects the game in many ways, dont you think? AND NOW WITH INCARNA :::::: Seems that someone big/old/inept FatIcelandicAss in CCP decided thats a good idea selling game playable items direct. In my opinion that would be "neutral" only if all the players or almost all of them are PvP addict. But thats not true. I think PvP in EVE only exist in the imagination of the campers and blobbers Many of us (perhaps most of) play EVE online because its innovative market driven economy. It facinated me many years ago and still does. PvP market they say. INCARNA makes me think CCP is going to nerf this, ergo ruin my game.
Revyna	Posted - 2011.06.26 02:09:00 - [135] Tippia has far more patience than me. :)
Tla Atij	Posted - 2011.06.26 02:11:00 - [136] Originally by: Revyna Tippia has far more patience than me. :)
Tla Atij	Posted - 2011.06.26 02:17:00 - [137] Originally by: Tla Atij Edited by: Tla Atij on 26/06/2011 02:00:18 Originally by: Tippia As soon as you get something other than 30d gametime with PLEX (which causes it to exist the economy and balance out its entry), you create value in the economy So what happens to the economy then? I mean, as more PLEX is broken into AUR, instead of being used for game time. I'm gonna probably make a complete ass out of myself but I'll try to answer my own question. So items from the NeX enter the economy, and the amount of ISK stays the same. Uhmmm... Errrr... So at one point there won't be enough ISK anymore?
Tla Atij	Posted - 2011.06.26 02:25:00 - [138] Then there will be so many items on the market and nobody will buy them, so their ISK price will go down until they won't be worth their AUR price, and people will stop selling them, and only blow them up?
Revelrie	Posted - 2011.06.26 02:29:00 - [139] Edited by: Revelrie on 26/06/2011 02:30:02 Originally by: Tla Atij Originally by: Revyna Tippia has far more patience than me. :) At least you were willing to discuss it. Maybe there is some configuration of performance boosting MTs that will minimally impact industrialists, but it really depends on the details of the implementation. Some configurations would be worse than others, but they would all distort the economy.
Linar Mardolak Minmatar Phlogiston Absorption	Posted - 2011.06.26 02:29:00 - [140] Edited by: Linar Mardolak on 26/06/2011 02:32:39 Originally by: Tla Atij Edited by: Tla Atij on 26/06/2011 00:31:00 Originally by: Linar Mardolak Originally by: Kahza Kado No, I'm not. Seriously show me how you can by skill points with plex with out buying a character that someone else has trained up to sell. Please! This exact plan on CCP's part (buying SP on a character to match perfect training from that character's birthdate) is what T'Amber quit the CSM and Eve over. It will happen. Vets will have a ball with that. Getting the opportunity to spend $ for all those long breaks after ghost training was disabled... clever bastards the CCPers, lol. Edit: If they limit themselves to this, at least a rich 2 days old player won't be flying titans. Nope, they very well might - they already can do so now, though it's at least a PLEX->isk transaction and the economy isn't damaged by that. Here's that scenario, without resorting to RMT. New player similar to SirLordex starts up. He's got $100,000 that he wants to spend, and wants to bankroll an alliance. 1. He purchases a pile of PLEX, converts some to isk, then buys someone's low-SP alt from 2006 or so. (not cheap, but a much more efficient buy all around due to 2 and 3 below) 2. He then tops-up that character's SP using Aurum, buying full-speed training from 2006 to today. 3. He then maps out that character's training to match the Titan plan that he has - no need to wait until suitable characters with Titan skills show up for sale. 4. He purchases a Titan with isk. Repeat 2-4 until as many supercap characters as necessary are ready. Hire a core of alliance members to fly them, recruit some support, and go. Everything but 2 and 3 are possible now, but they mean the process goes much faster. A really not-so-bright rich player could do all that without the alliance, but that would just result in a rapidly lost Titan. RMT, of course, short-circuits the whole thing. (edit - character ages were inconsistent. I'd have to do the math to be sure, but perfect training from 2006 should be fine)
Llambda Space Llama Industries	Posted - 2011.06.26 02:31:00 - [141] Edited by: Llambda on 26/06/2011 02:33:02 It's less about what it "will do" to the economy from a supply/demand perspective and more about the fact that it would circumvent the normal in-game economy. For instance, say they put a navy issue armageddon BPC on the NeX. Normally, to acquire that BPC, someone would have to first acquire one by running missions, and then purchase the BPC from the LP store. While you may personally just buy the BPC off contracts, SOMEONE would have had to have run the missions, acquired the LP, and bought the item from the LP shop. If it's available for AUR, though, someone can directly purchase plex, purchase AUR, and then purchase the BPC - thereby completely bypassing the normal game mechanics, not just for himself, but for the economy as a whole. This isn't just "doing something" to the economy, it's completely bypassing it wholesale. Edit: Note that I'm not saying geddon BPCs will be available on the NeX; it's merely a hypothetical example to provide an answer to a question.
Nano J	Posted - 2011.06.26 02:31:00 - [142] Originally by: Tla Atij Originally by: Tla Atij Edited by: Tla Atij on 26/06/2011 02:00:18 Originally by: Tippia As soon as you get something other than 30d gametime with PLEX (which causes it to exist the economy and balance out its entry), you create value in the economy So what happens to the economy then? I mean, as more PLEX is broken into AUR, instead of being used for game time. I'm gonna probably make a complete ass out of myself but I'll try to answer my own question. So items from the NeX enter the economy, and the amount of ISK stays the same. Uhmmm... Errrr... So at one point there won't be enough ISK anymore? Items that are put into the game with aurum compete unfairly with items that were generated by standard game mechanics. So some guy who has spent the last 3 years skilling up to be an awesome manufacturer is out of a job, or at least his income is now determined by how much cash CCP wants to charge us for items via aurum. Aside from that, items that can be bought on nex, then sold for isk as exclusive aurum-only items adds value to the "goods-side" of the economic, devaluing isk and creating inflation. isk isn't technically created, but value is created from nothing. needless to say, MT's in these fashions will surely be the cause of all kinds of market volatilities. ultimately though, the idea that CCP is setting the aurum price on these goods means other goods have to compete with CCP instead of each other, thus putting a great big turd in the sandbox economy.
Linar Mardolak Minmatar Phlogiston Absorption	Posted - 2011.06.26 02:39:00 - [143] Originally by: Akkukkak In my opinion that would be "neutral" only if all the players or almost all of them are PvP addict. But thats not true. I think PvP in EVE only exist in the imagination of the campers and blobbers Many of us (perhaps most of) play EVE online because its innovative market driven economy. It facinated me many years ago and still does. PvP market they say. INCARNA makes me think CCP is going to nerf this, ergo ruin my game. Remember, of course, that the shooting-PvP players are the reason that the market-PvP works so well. PvE doesn't destroy manufactured goods fast enough to keep the market going - you'd need a geometrically increasing population for that to work without a lot of ships blowing up, or introduce decay of virtual items. Else, you'll saturate the market (like the monocle market will be saturated shortly, since they're not destroyed) Both sides of the equation work together to make the economy run.
Tla Atij	Posted - 2011.06.26 02:51:00 - [144] Edited by: Tla Atij on 26/06/2011 02:53:43 Originally by: Llambda Edited by: Llambda on 26/06/2011 02:33:02 It's less about what it "will do" to the economy from a supply/demand perspective and more about the fact that it would circumvent the normal in-game economy. For instance, say they put a navy issue armageddon BPC on the NeX. Normally, to acquire that BPC, someone would have to first acquire one by running missions, and then purchase the BPC from the LP store. While you may personally just buy the BPC off contracts, SOMEONE would have had to have run the missions, acquired the LP, and bought the item from the LP shop. If it's available for AUR, though, someone can directly purchase plex, purchase AUR, and then purchase the BPC - thereby completely bypassing the normal game mechanics, not just for himself, but for the economy as a whole. This isn't just "doing something" to the economy, it's completely bypassing it wholesale. Edit: Note that I'm not saying geddon BPCs will be available on the NeX; it's merely a hypothetical example to provide an answer to a question. If they set the BPC's price a lot higher than in the LP store, so it can be used only as last resort, won't this leave the normal mechanics alone? I mean yes, they make a BPC out of thin air, but its price is so high that normal mission runners/manufacturers won't be affected by it? I mean, maybe I'm in deep 0.0 we're sieged and there are no local BPCs but we have materials. We'll use Aurum as a last resort, even if it's crazy priced. And then if the geddon survives, I'll be forced to sell it on the regular market for the regular price, since nobody would pay its Aurum cost.
Llambda Space Llama Industries	Posted - 2011.06.26 02:56:00 - [145] Originally by: Tla Atij If they set the BPC's price a lot higher than in the LP store, so it can be used only as last resort, won't this leave the normal mechanics alone? I mean yes, they make a BPC out of thin air, but its price is so high that normal mission runners/manufacturers won't be affected by it? In theory, sure, you could put something in the NeX and set the price prohibitively high and avoid it ever having any measurable impact on the "real" game. In practice, why would they set the price that high? They WANT you buy things from the NeX shop, because those purchases translate directly to money for CCP. There's no benefit to pricing themselves out of the market.
Tla Atij	Posted - 2011.06.26 03:04:00 - [146] So if they put a high AUR price on "tangible" items like ships/modules, and then offer only time based "AUR sinks" like for example, the Quafe Zero effect for 24 hours, while being happy with the bulk coming from vanity items (unsure how long that will last since they made them indestructible), the economy would be relatively fine. Here's me hoping they're not very fond of that Greed is GoodÖ crap.
Valor D'eglise Gallente Red Cross Of Gallente Federation	Posted - 2011.06.26 03:09:00 - [147] Wow. Just wow. An informative thread with almost no flaming and a constructive discussion? On my EVE forums? I think I've seen it all now. Just wanted to thank everyone who contributed in one way or another. Great read. Now, please excuse me for interrupting you guys. Just go on.
Jim Luc Caldari Rule of Five Split Infinity.	Posted - 2011.06.26 03:22:00 - [148] Aurum is different because you can't purchase a shirt with PLEX. Duh people.
Nano J	Posted - 2011.06.26 03:23:00 - [149] Originally by: Valor D'eglise Wow. Just wow. An informative thread with almost no flaming and a constructive discussion? On my EVE forums? I think I've seen it all now. Just wanted to thank everyone who contributed in one way or another. Great read. Now, please excuse me for interrupting you guys. Just go on. YOU'RE AN IDIOT!!!
Telven Stareal	Posted - 2011.06.26 03:26:00 - [150] Edited by: Telven Stareal on 26/06/2011 03:26:57 Well, I could write a small book about this topic and my concerns ( not a real book). But just think of how high the price of plex is going to go.... Those folks who sell it want the isk for ships and such.. If they can get those things from the new store, they wont sell it on the market, which will lead to higher prices for that item... Then there is the possible (keyword folks, meaning not in stone) chance of the Ihe market being hit, because the plex sellers will be buying out of the new store and not the market. I want to know what the plan is for this, will there then be SP for saleas well? Lots of questions, just no answers from the powers tha be. I would suggest to invest in a plex throught the market and sit on it... I would be so bold as to even bet a plex hat the price of plex will jump by about 50 - 100 mil after the other content is added, I.e ships and such

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