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Yarrrrrhh
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Posted - 2011.06.26 21:33:00 -
[1]
Originally by: Angeliq
Originally by: Julian Kirov
Here's a presentation from the creators of BF:Heroes that explains why Hilmar gives no fcks about the forums.
http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win
This is a very interesting presentation. Everyone should... MUST watch it!
This presentation will tell you why EVE Online WILL have a Cash Shop WITH GAME CHANGING ITEMS beyond vanity ones!! It shows that the business model works and why it will work in EVE too.
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Peter Greed
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Posted - 2011.06.26 21:50:00 -
[2]
Its a great video! It's a really great initiative for new games to model after/
The problem is I don't want to play P2W games though.
I don't really think people are condemning P2W games as much as they are bashing COMPANIES THAT CHANGE THEIR PAY MODEL FROM SUB TO P2W STRUCTURES.
It's really quite simple. Established subscription based games should never ever introduce P2W items. It should, and I believe will, be considered one of the worst 'sins' an mmo company can commit. Want to capitalize on the P2W structure? AWESOME! You should! Just start a new game, do not ruin an existing one.
Thanks for the link, sort of eye opening for the future of online gaming.
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Anna Maziarczyk
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Posted - 2011.06.26 22:12:00 -
[3]
Atlas Shrugged meets Greedy Developers.
How did Atlas Shrugged do at the box office? i forget.
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Deryk Kyeld
DarkSide Industries
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Posted - 2011.06.26 22:22:00 -
[4]
Edited by: Deryk Kyeld on 26/06/2011 22:23:15 I think you overlooked the fact that all those games are F2P with a cash shop, EVE is a subscription based game, so unless EVE goes F2P a cash shop would not work and would turn the player-base against CCP more than it already has during this whole fiasco. See any major MMO that has become F2P: D&DO, LTRO and EQ2.
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XIRUSPHERE
Gallente The 8th Order Mean Coalition
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Posted - 2011.06.26 22:25:00 -
[5]
The data doesn't show something of particular importance, EVE is a game of masochist and meta gamers. If they are going to push this kind of model there going to have to gut the game.
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Anna Maziarczyk
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Posted - 2011.06.26 22:26:00 -
[6]
that game is shut down too.
Going through the same stuff EVE is.
http://www.battlefieldheroes.com/
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RougeOperator
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Posted - 2011.06.26 22:26:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
Originally by: Angeliq
Originally by: Julian Kirov
Here's a presentation from the creators of BF:Heroes that explains why Hilmar gives no fcks about the forums.
http://www.slideshare.net/bcousins/paying-to-win
This is a very interesting presentation. Everyone should... MUST watch it!
This presentation will tell you why EVE Online WILL have a Cash Shop WITH GAME CHANGING ITEMS beyond vanity ones!! It shows that the business model works and why it will work in EVE too.
Completely different customer base dude.
Those were F2P with a cash shop from launch. Its not a comparable model.
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Murev Vorchilde
Caldari End Game.
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Posted - 2011.06.26 22:28:00 -
[8]
immagine how many bots we would have if you could make as many f2p eve accounts as you wanted, fun times ahead
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Peter Greed
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Posted - 2011.06.26 22:30:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Anna Maziarczyk
that game is shut down too.
Going through the same stuff EVE is.
http://www.battlefieldheroes.com/
Heh, Lulzsec distributed over half a million beta names and passwords. That's why they are shut down.
That's just a tad different than a handful of players shooting a monument in space.
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Anna Maziarczyk
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Posted - 2011.06.26 22:34:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Anna Maziarczyk on 26/06/2011 22:36:19
Originally by: Peter Greed
Originally by: Anna Maziarczyk
that game is shut down too.
Going through the same stuff EVE is.
http://www.battlefieldheroes.com/
Heh, Lulzsec distributed over half a million beta names and passwords. That's why they are shut down.
That's just a tad different than a handful of players shooting a monument in space.
(Edit: to fix Engrich languatch bug. Error:Peronslay)
Personally, I dont want EVE to get trashed and end up F2P off steam with P2W super lasers.
As i suspect the vast majority of players, who are protesting, arent protesting because they hate eve.
To the contrary, we are upset because EVE is being destroyed, and we *DONT* want it destroyed.
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Toawa
EVE Mercantile Exchange Virtue of Selfishness
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Posted - 2011.06.26 22:40:00 -
[11]
Edited by: Toawa on 26/06/2011 22:44:39
Originally by: Anna Maziarczyk Atlas Shrugged meets Greedy Developers.
How did Atlas Shrugged do at the box office? i forget.
$4,627,375, according to Wikipedia. No DVD release yet, of course...
And as someone who has actually read Atlas Shrugged, I can say that there's really no comparison between these two situations. When the government starts forcing you to buy monocles to prop up the monocle industry, let me know...
... Ok, maybe a little comparison; some of the EVE population who are unsubbing are somewhat analogous to the business people who go on strike in AS. But that's a pretty pale comparison.
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Meridian Siri
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Posted - 2011.06.26 22:42:00 -
[12]
Edited by: Meridian Siri on 26/06/2011 22:44:09 Wow. With industry propaganda like this out there, I can see why CCP would be tempted to go down the P2W model. Average revenue per user? Really? This is not the EvE that I have come to know and enjoy.
Sadly, flavor of the month business strategies are sort of cash-and-run strategies. If CCP goes down this road, don't expect EvE to last long. They will strip-mine the users and move on.
I guess we will see.
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Straahl
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.26 22:45:00 -
[13]
I stopped watching his presentation after he misspelled "loser". It is very interesting though. I hope this won't happen to EVE. I still think EVE is too much of a niche title for it to work. Unless they completely overhaul the gameplay (people still call it Excel in space) then I can't see them maintaining that F2P/P2W audience.
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Brujo Loco
Amarr Brujeria Teologica
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Posted - 2011.06.26 22:45:00 -
[14]
The horror and sheer madness in that festering filth of presentation only makes me want to cry out in agony at the uncaring universe that lies ahead of us, because when you watch this closely you will realize portions of the userbase will react strongly against these models, and guess what? what is explained in the video it's happening here...
NONETHELESS though, they then proceed to explain how to thoroughly DECEIVE players that don't use the "purchased advantages" into thinking that they are losing, being left behind or simply not good enough NOT by the lack of these "advantages" but their own fault. Prompting them to psychologically explain their faults as something else and then become prone to "buy" the advantages, and when beginning to feel "superior" to those that don't have them, ENJOY the ride until "NEW ADVANTAGES" are brought into play to keep the circle AD NAUSEAM. It's so macabre and well engineered this is the dark side of psychology put to use bluntly into our faces.
It's simple, ghoulish in its core form, and allows an incredible Slave mentality to the game for fixed shots of "happiness" the more you spend money and achieve these "gains".
This process is explained here for ALL TO SEE, and you my dear fellow eve player are warned. The changes coming to eve will completely ALTER the way the game is being played, because CCP "knows" it will bring profit. And as anyone with any kind of remote ability to logically think ahead, the NEX, Incarna and etc is simply the first PHASE of a massive turnover of the EVE Engine. Hoping , believing or even living in Denial of these facts only plants you as naive of the way how gaming corporations react to new ventures of profit.
The Man in the video, proceeds, with a slight distaste to PLACE and READ emails from angry people and points out the "bad press" and articles showing their games was setting path to "ruin", yet in a serious tone says "I'm still here and about to launch another game based on the same business model".
So the question remains:
ARE YOU WILLING TO be a SLAVE to the Psychologically enhanced Game designed to give you an edge that has been engineered to NOT BE PERCEIVED as such?
This is the fine line between addiction, psychological addiction and a simple, greatly rewarding game in terms of fun.
You will end up associating Cash Expenditure to FUN.
Beware thinking people of EVE, for all I'm saying is CLEARLY exposed in the video. Are you sure THAT MODEL is the kind of Model you want for eve?
And why you may ask, I extrapolate this is what will happen in eve?
Simple, it's in theory and practice PROFITABLE.
Why the vague remarks from the CCP representatives? the mockery of the CSM being gagged and placed under NDAs? Their words are so vague and ambiguous because they NEED them to be so.
They are changing as we speak the way EVE will behave in the future, they know you are angry, they KNOW IT, they don't care and take it as "collateral damage" so to speak, in the belief it will simply bring WAY more subbers to their game in the long run despite losing a portion of the current userbase. They see it as manageable and will move heaven and earth, paint rainbows and explain how everything is allright, because that's the psychologically engineered response they HAVE TO GIVE.
It's all a simple plan, and only you, will be able to actually stop it. To actually show there can be change. Those 52 monocles sold show there's profit to be made, and even if they lose 4k accounts, they know, according to their plan, they will regain those in the long term for 4k times more profit than the people that left could have given them.
You can sneer, say this or that, but see, EVE is no longer EVE, it's being reworked into something else entirely, and you will see time will prove me right.
Archive this thread, quote me if you want, the change is COMING unless SOMETHING is done to stop it at its roots.
They simply will keep stalling everyone to implement the new way.
---Eve is not dying, its being murdered ----
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Maeve Nightside
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Posted - 2011.06.26 23:03:00 -
[15]
This tells a story on how EA ignored user outrage and bad press and went on to success. Nice story. This seem eerily familiar to anyone? It presents the "don't listen to the users" model as a success because most users don't use the forums and the forums don't represent ****.
Advice is to not pay too much attention to the forums. Guess this sort of thinking explains Hilmar's e-mail pretty well. Time will tell how well this works for EvE.
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Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
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Posted - 2011.06.26 23:07:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Brujo Loco You will end up associating Cash Expenditure to FUN.
One word : MALLS. The brick-and-mortar kind. _
Make ISK||Build||React||1k papercuts
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Brujo Loco
Amarr Brujeria Teologica
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Posted - 2011.06.26 23:24:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Akita T
Originally by: Brujo Loco You will end up associating Cash Expenditure to FUN.
One word : MALLS. The brick-and-mortar kind.
Does that Make it right?
Does that make it Morally Acceptable?
When the world is so full of SIN is the day sin will be accepted as GRACE?
Is this World you speak of the World you want into the New World of Virtuality?
When everyone's god is Money shall the moneyless bow down to it ???
Shall we sing praises to the Almighty Virtual Dollar as we rampage ourselves to BUY what is FREE?
In the World of the Voiceless , LAG IS OUR RIGHT!
In the World of the Voiceless, LAG IS OUR VIOLENCE!!!
When they turn you into their cult, are you the one that will cry to the Virtual Sky there is only the Virtual Currency and the Wallet in your Inventory Slot?
---Eve is not dying, its being murdered ----
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XIRUSPHERE
Gallente The 8th Order Mean Coalition
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Posted - 2011.06.26 23:34:00 -
[18]
I would laugh if heilmar watched this and got a raging boner along with the rest of the ptw protagonist. EVE is unlike any EA product, our players are gilded in ****. Don't falter at this garbage. We are the mega corporations of eve, our influence reaches the stars. The mechanics of this game and it's emergent nature allow us to cultivate a society or poison the wells, tear down icons, fight a battle of scorched earth and hear the lamentations of noobs and hamsters.
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Govinda Sertan
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Posted - 2011.06.26 23:36:00 -
[19]
There is a single reason for all the problems there is between CCP and the gamers fanbase :
1. Why do they stop caring about what we say ? 2. Why didnt they make any major effort to fix bugs, upgrade the game the past few years ? 3. Why they will only force Incarna-like features and online store from now on ?
Because they have changed their business model years ago. They dont intend to be user-friendly anymore. They dont intend to take advice from the community (CSM is an illusion of that).
They follows a new strategy : more and more and more paying content. And who cares if 5-10 % players go away, when the remaining will pay 2 times more than before to continue playing ?
It sure is sad. But consider the fact that now, even if they want to, CCP cant change their business model now. They are engaged. It's over.
Now here is what will happen in the days to come : more and more BS to buy time. And more and more 1000$ pants.
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CEOcat
Gallente CAT Corp
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Posted - 2011.06.26 23:42:00 -
[20]
Uhm they are talking of ARPU of a couple of dollars here.
Second Life seems to have some kind of record with a revenue of $9/moth/user.
Say the transaction and retailing costs of the eve sub is 10% which would be very hub. And we estimate 1.5 account per user which is probably very low. So that would be like $20 arpu per month for EVE and those are very reluctant numbers.
Which means CCP is making more income per player then any MT game if I read this right.
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Lirael Dyrim
Gallente In Bacon We Trust
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Posted - 2011.06.26 23:43:00 -
[21]
Originally by: XIRUSPHERE I would laugh if heilmar watched this and got a raging boner along with the rest of the ptw protagonist. EVE is unlike any EA product, our players are gilded in ****. Don't falter at this garbage. We are the mega corporations of eve, our influence reaches the stars. The mechanics of this game and it's emergent nature allow us to cultivate a society or poison the wells, tear down icons, fight a battle of scorched earth and hear the lamentations of noobs and hamsters.
"Until they become conscious they will never rebel, and until after they have rebelled they cannot become conscious." |
Maeve Nightside
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Posted - 2011.06.26 23:43:00 -
[22]
Originally by: XIRUSPHERE I would laugh if heilmar watched this and got a raging boner along with the rest of the ptw protagonist. EVE is unlike any EA product, our players are gilded in ****. Don't falter at this garbage. We are the mega corporations of eve, our influence reaches the stars. The mechanics of this game and it's emergent nature allow us to cultivate a society or poison the wells, tear down icons, fight a battle of scorched earth and hear the lamentations of noobs and hamsters.
Sincerely hope that your are correct. I don't have your same faith in the intelligence of management that has drunk the kool-aid is not that high.
Listen to the language in the vid and match it to what you hear coming out of CCP. Buzzwords, turns of phrase, etc. I would not be surprised if Hilmar worships this krap.
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Yarrrrrhh
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Posted - 2011.06.26 23:50:00 -
[23]
Originally by: RougeOperator
Completely different customer base dude.
Those were F2P with a cash shop from launch. Its not a comparable model.
Exactly. That's why it would ruin EVE. But CCP doesn't get that. If you check what they're doing, what they're implementing and read the Fearless newsletter it's clear that they don't get that. They're trying to implement the Pay to Win mechanics into Eve to either make more money and/or to test them for Dust and WoD.
And by that they're ****ing with the sandbox, most likely either breaking it or creating an abomination which none of the current players can possibly want.
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Cailais
Amarr Dawn of a new Empire The Initiative.
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Posted - 2011.06.26 23:53:00 -
[24]
Originally by: Maeve Nightside This tells a story on how EA ignored user outrage and bad press and went on to success. Nice story. This seem eerily familiar to anyone? It presents the "don't listen to the users" model as a success because most users don't use the forums and the forums don't represent ****.
Advice is to not pay too much attention to the forums. Guess this sort of thinking explains Hilmar's e-mail pretty well. Time will tell how well this works for EvE.
EVEs a network of interconnected communities, led typically, by those who do utilise the forums. Those canaries singing are the movers and shakers of EVE and its primary content.
C.
'GREED IS GOOD' - CCP 2011 (ಠ_O)
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Annie Anomie
Shadows Of The Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.26 23:55:00 -
[25]
LOL
Very interesting to see where they lifted the "golf" comparison from. Very interesting indeed.
OFC... DICE's F2P offerings are F2P from the get go. Big, important point there.
Check out how much their fanbase hates their guts when they try and do the same with a paid for title.
Different expectations, different rules.
Also I gotta say, I am a big fan of DICE's conventionally paid for titles but their P2W titles just totally do not appeal. I like FPS games and I get a little competitive about it (not as much as I used to because I do not play for 30h a week anymore) and part of the fun for me is knowing that I won because I am playing better than the other guy.
The mere prospect of some dude with big fat sausage fingers spending real money for a Gun of +2 winning and beating me is so distasteful I just can't enjoy the game. Perhaps I am in a minority there.
Laffo at the bit about them DROPPING PRICES on microtransactions too. Even the paid for stuff is on the cheap side. P sure there's monocles in that game and they aren't 60 dollars.
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Ophelia Ursus
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Posted - 2011.06.27 00:12:00 -
[26]
Edited by: Ophelia Ursus on 27/06/2011 00:13:39 BF: Heroes is free to play and its creators were aiming for an ARPU of $0.50
Eve is a subscription-based game and as such, has a minimum monthly revenue per user of $15
It does not necessarily follow that microtransactions that are accepted in BF: Heroes will likewise be accepted in Eve. Signature removed. |
Mr Epeen
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Posted - 2011.06.27 00:40:00 -
[27]
That is, in fact, an interesting presentation.
Thanks for the link.
There are some differences but there are some basic truths.
Some things I took from this show.
CCP needs to/will do:
-Ignore the forum posters as they represent approx 2% of the user base. -Introduce cash for performance type merchandise -make it more difficult to acquire ISK except as RMT (plex).
What will happen:
-No one will quit despite the rage. -Cash purchases will become common and an accepted part of the EVE experience. -The people raging the loudest will become some of the best customers. -No one will be too wound up that the ship they just destroyed/got blown up by was fitted with uber weapons paid for with cash.
A real kick in the teeth for those protesters that think they can change the future of EVE with idle threats and petty forum tantrums.
Mr Epeen
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Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
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Posted - 2011.06.27 00:53:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Yarrrrrhh
EDIT: Some sad but additional truth (source);
Quote: It's going to be so fun watching all of you slowly distance yourself from this as time goes on and you realize you were raging about nothing.
Six months from now when golden ammo hasn't appeared and you all come crawling back to re-sub as your subscriptions actually expire, will you have the balls to admit you were acting like a hysterical woman or will you pretend you never raged?
There is a perfectly good response to your **** in that same thread:
Originally by: Zoidberg If there's no non-vanity MTs six months from now, I'll say we were responsible for preventing certain doom of EVE's fundamental structure (notice I didn't say EVE, as I don't think EVE would die from a business point of view) because it is obvious that CCP wants/wanted to do non-vanity MTs. Keep up the casual sexism though. Really classy.
The rest of your post is too dumb to reply to.
... Return the Old Hangar Back... for Immersion.
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Roonia
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Posted - 2011.06.27 00:54:00 -
[29]
EVE is a very very different game compared to other Paying games. The MAJOR problem with EVE PVP for paying for advantages in PVP is that you fighting abilities are based on a very strict skill system which governs the way you use weapons, how much damage they do, how far they shoot and how much damage you take and repair. This skill system is hard coded in your character and is the basis of the entire game.
Winning is somewhat dependent on the player's skill at using the character's skill set and weapons but much less so than in Battlefield Heroes. In EVE you dont need to aim your guns, which is crucial in most shooter games. The strategic options of the player are very limited in EVE and a more powerful weapon would quickly win out more often and play a very very big role in who wins or loses. The power of advantage giving items would be greatly amplified by the skill system which is stacking everything.
Now if you were to take away the auto aim/shoot and skill/weapon based hit/miss/damage and have it based solely on the ability of the player to judge distance/speed vs target and his/her ability to aim the ships guns, maneuver the ship, avoid damage, the more powerful weapon's role would greatly diminish and the outcome of the battle would be dictated much more by the actual skill of the gamer.
My two cents.
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Bella Delacier
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Posted - 2011.06.27 01:00:00 -
[30]
Many thanks for posting this presentation...... a interesting case which makes sense from a pure business perspective.
Interesting that a key issue for EA seemed that there was somehow too much "in game" currency that facilitated free play for many, with apparently not enough players spending real cash in their view.
I would now suggest current backlash is quite possibly "working as expected"????
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