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Dr Valeri
Royal Khanid Engineering
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Posted - 2011.06.28 17:40:00 -
[391]
Originally by: Xia Long So White Tree:
1- what are you (as CSM not just u) goin to ask to CCP?can you let us peons know? 2- what's the point behiond which you will stand up and leave the meeting? 3- once the meeting will be over, how long will it take for you (even better CCP) to let us have our answers? 4- ok this is your position, what about the other CSM guys? considering we'r "forced" to count on you, i guess we should really need to know what ALL of you guys think about the situation
I didn't vote for any of you (guess i'm not alone tbh), now i'm forced to depend of you, guess you can understand why i'm asking those questions
Ofc they need to bow for CCP or else they need to walk home, which is quite a problem of the meeting takes place on Iceland :)
On a more serious note: Good luck to you and I hope you can relay our worries about MT providing for an I-WIN button.
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Ciar Meara
Amarr Virtus Vindice
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Posted - 2011.06.28 17:42:00 -
[392]
Originally by: Fromancia Here are some news J=n H÷r=dal J=nasson COO - CCP confirms that they will never say that they will not sell game changing stuff in the aur store. He also says that he is not worried that many players are going to quit. MBL News service Icelandic
We have not been heared
We have been ignored and played
------------------------------------------------- A friend of death, a brother of luck and a son of a *****
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Gogela
Freeport Exploration
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Posted - 2011.06.28 17:43:00 -
[393]
Originally by: Minigin
Originally by: Razin
Originally by: Minigin Edited by: Minigin on 28/06/2011 17:10:05 what about my voice? i like monocles. have i been heard?
You got your monocle, what the fvck else do you want?
pirate hat.
ooh. I want a pirate hat... His name was John Turbefield!
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
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Posted - 2011.06.28 17:44:00 -
[394]
Originally by: Ciar Meara
We have not been heared
We have been ignored and played
As is fitting...
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Muul Udonii
Minmatar Sick Tight BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.06.28 17:47:00 -
[395]
I've been watching this play out with interest, although not participating as I have very little time or energy for it.
The issue for me is as follows:
If there is ever an item which has any effect in real game terms upon gameplay, that is not available via contracts of the market; then it should not ever be considered for addition to the NEX.
I'm not too fussed about things that can be bought by players and seeded onto the market for a small profit (or loss), but things like adding functionality for those who pay for it, or purchasing standings are an absolute no-no.
Should this happen (and not before) I would stop playing.
BUT - CCP should be ashamed of how they have treated their players, and recognise that it should not take a leak to get the truth out of them.
I hope this is the message that is put across at the CSM summit.
Good luck guys.
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Dr Valeri
Royal Khanid Engineering
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Posted - 2011.06.28 17:48:00 -
[396]
Originally by: Ciar Meara
Originally by: Fromancia Here are some news J=n H÷r=dal J=nasson COO - CCP confirms that they will never say that they will not sell game changing stuff in the aur store. He also says that he is not worried that many players are going to quit. MBL News service Icelandic
We have not been heared
We have been ignored and played
Great, minutes after I posted my "positive view"-post...
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derivativo
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Posted - 2011.06.28 17:50:00 -
[397]
Originally by: the plague Edited by: the plague on 28/06/2011 15:09:38
Originally by: White Tree If this is just a simple PR move then yeah, we're going to be equally upset but I maintain hope that it isn't. That's my job broseph, to keep hope alive.
I'm sorry, White Tree, but I see no logical reason to give either the CSM or CCP the benefit of the doubt at this time. CCP has clearly demonstrated over the past two years it either doesn't understand what players want or doesn't care. Either situation is rather depressing and there is every possibility that personnel changes will have to occur in order to bring about the kind of shift in focus and design philosophy the players are obviously seeking here. And without significant external pressure, there is zero chance CCP will elect to make such changes on their own simply because "they've heard us." It's naive to believe that.
Second, as your initial post makes clear, you view these problems from a far different perspective than the vast majority of EVE players. For us, CCP is a company we purchase entertainment services from and with which we have a common investment of time, energy, and money. But for you they are your friends and drinking buddies. It is not my intention to sound harsh, but this is one of the primary problems with the entire CSM system as it currently exists. By flying CSM members to Iceland and turning the process into a drunkfest, CCP turns the CSM into a travesty and it's obvious the members become beholden to CCP very quickly. You can deny that all you want, but your denials will fall on deaf ears because we all see it a thousand times a day in the world of politics and the CSM is hardly immune to the same petty conflicts of interest.
Frankly, the entire process appears to be little more than a PR stunt designed to keep EVE Online in the pages of the gaming press. And I say that as someone who championed the idea of the CSM and has tirelessly defended the concepts behind this type of developer/player relationship. But somewhere along the line the relationship went off the rails. It appears to many that CCP is managed like a frat house full of college boys more interested in partying with friends than doing the day to day work that will keep EVE on the cutting edge of the MMO scene. There's absolutely nothing unique or cool about flying to Iceland and getting drunk. There is, however, something unique and cool about EVE Online, and protecting the ideas that made it great is what we're interested in.
Finally, we don't need you to tell us to chill out. The CSM didn't see these problems coming, nor has the CSM/CCP interaction been successful in changing CCP's direction and thinking. We don't need you to tell CCP why we're upset. Trust me, they've heard us! What we need the CSM to do (or at least attempt to do) is help bring about the kind of paradigm shift in thinking that will return EVE to its roots. Short of that, anything that comes out of this meeting will be little more than damage control and spin mixed with some minor concessions. If that's all the CSM is capable of then you're wasting our time. In short, the CSM did little to head off these problems and it did nothing to help generate the energy behind this virtual "revolution." Bottom line: You didn't help start it so don't presume to tell us when to end it.
Stop partying with CCP and acting like they're your buddies. We elected you to represent our EVE Online interests, not represent us at the pub. Our collective outrage and actions have given the CSM a golden opportunity to finally speak with authority to CCP. Don't waste it! Or simply admit there's little you can do and stay out of the way.
+1
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Sawako
Ars Industria
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Posted - 2011.06.28 17:50:00 -
[398]
CSM should just resign.
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Xervish Krin
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Posted - 2011.06.28 17:51:00 -
[399]
Edited by: Xervish Krin on 28/06/2011 17:53:44 I think a lot of people are currently so involved in the outrage and protest that they no longer want to win. They want to believe that Hilmar is the enemy and that CCP is evil, and will believe that no matter what. It's far easier to think in absolutes, to say that EVE is dead and that CCP is hell bent on wringing the last drops of life from it, and to carry on with blind and unrestrained hate, than to deal with the truth that our hissy fits might not be entirely justified and that dropping the ball does not equate to the end of the world.
People are so mentally invested in the 'revolution' and the sense of righteousness and importance it gives them that they don't want to give it up, least of all for something as petty as reality. Far better to continue the fantasy of a spurned player standing against The Man, with fire in his heart and a tear in his eye.
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F1F2F3
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Posted - 2011.06.28 17:54:00 -
[400]
I too, feel relieved that the mighty CSM will be our voice. Don't speak english. F1,f2,f3... |
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Windjammer
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.28 17:54:00 -
[401]
Originally by: the plague Edited by: the plague on 28/06/2011 17:22:04
Originally by: Windjammer There are a lot of critics of the CSM in this thread and maybe some of that is justified criticism, but thereÆs room to believe theyÆll do better this trip. Sure they got treated like chumps last time, but thatÆs all the more reason theyÆre not inclined to let it happen this time.
That argument would be easier to accept had White Tree not started off the thread by telling us how cool it is to hang out with his friends -- the devs -- at the pub. On the contrary, there is every reason to believe CCP will have already decided what they are going to do prior to the meeting, and that the CSM is being summoned in an attempt to legitimize CCP's decision and re-focus the attention of the game press.
If the CSM is complicit in these shenanigans then it has outlived its usefulness as a player organization. The CSM's role here is clear: To represent player interests in EVE Online. If the CSM can do nothing given the golden opportunity the community has created for it, then it needs to go away.
I couldnÆt agree more. My definition of the CSM ôdoing betterö is this. Come back with the guaranteeÆs and answers the community wants or come back with the message those things arenÆt going to happen. I think this CSM has the capability to ask the pointy questions and know when those questions are being evaded.
The community wants answers, not double talk or vague answers that donÆt guarantee anything. CCP must commit to defined answers they can be held accountable for or they indicate they want to retain options to do as they please in the future by introducing things they know the community will not gladly accept at this time. The community wants a yes or no answer on their concerns and they want those immediately. Not a month from now. Not two weeks from now. No later than July 2nd and preferably sooner.
-Windjammer
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Doc Fury
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.06.28 17:58:00 -
[402]
Originally by: Ciar Meara
Originally by: Fromancia Here are some news J=n H÷r=dal J=nasson COO - CCP confirms that they will never say that they will not sell game changing stuff in the aur store. He also says that he is not worried that many players are going to quit. MBL News service Icelandic
We have not been heared
We have been ignored and played
You have not been heard, but you are being herded.
MOO!
We're not upset that you lied to us CCP, we're upset that from now on we can't believe you.
/I am not a Golden Goose /I am not a Cash Cow
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Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.28 18:01:00 -
[403]
CCP have made and maintained a game I love. I have sunk countless hours and money into Eve over the nearly six years I've been playing. I'm willing to give them the benefit of the doubt because of that. However, they need to work on being more open and honest with the players.
This signature is useless, but it is red.
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Speaker4 theDead
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Posted - 2011.06.28 18:03:00 -
[404]
Sorry, but I've seen nothing to convince me that anything will change. Incarna is a sloppily written resource hog. When they finally open up the station, adding huge numbers of polys, only a new hot rig will run it decently. CCP will institute p2win, because they simply not making enough money to support eve and two other games. I think regardless of what they say now, all the things that we are complaining about will come to pass regardless of any promises made.
If CCP wants to remove all the complaints from the forum all they have to do is reimburse for the two months left on this sub and my other subs.
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AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.28 18:04:00 -
[405]
Originally by: Lemmy Kravitz Let there be no pause let there be no quarter, mercy is reserved for people of honor. CCP through it's actions and leaks have shown they have no honor, their word has as much worth as the gum under our boot. Let the subscriptions continue to drop in protest, keep CCP's feet to the fire if and only if a majority of the communities issues are resolved should we pull back from the brink. Do not listen to this UNCLE TOM of a CSM representative, a placater an apologist. A representative who writes to us like he doesn't have the balls to the use the leverage given to the CSM by the community to change CCP and improve EVE. Strikes don't work if you back off during negotiations.
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Sophie Vherokior
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Posted - 2011.06.28 18:06:00 -
[406]
If there is one issue you must bring up with CCP when you go there it is this:
The attitude that Zulu, Hilmar and the internal newsletter showed us about how CCP perceives its customers! It became very clear from the get go that complaints were expected and should be dismissed as mere fear of change without even examining the arguments made by the players. Hilmar's leaked e-mail basically said that we as customers should not be listened to, unless we put our words into actions (or put in a better way, cancelled our subscriptions). This attitude has to change! The EVE community is not the WoW community, or some other gaming community. We are EVE players. CCP gave us a sandbox and we built castles and towers with it - invested our time and energy to this end, and now we have a stake in this whole thing. It is important that CCP understand this. They were the ones who gave us a sandbox and a CSM.
You can't invite people to the meeting with promise of influence and then tell them they're not allowed to talk.
/Soph
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Eclorc
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Posted - 2011.06.28 18:08:00 -
[407]
Originally by: Ciar Meara
Originally by: Fromancia Here are some news J=n H÷r=dal J=nasson COO - CCP confirms that they will never say that they will not sell game changing stuff in the aur store. He also says that he is not worried that many players are going to quit. MBL News service Icelandic
We have not been heared
We have been ignored and played
in translation: read, people. http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.mbl.is%2Ffrettir%2Ftaekni%2F2011%2F06%2F28%2Fpeningar_na_ekki_yfirradum%2F&sl=is&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8
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TriadSte
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.06.28 18:12:00 -
[408]
Originally by: White Tree So here we stand now at a crossroads. We've had documentation on the state of internal dialog with CCP made public, we've had analyses of CCPs 'apparent' financial affairs, we've caused a thunderous rumble that the entire gaming world has paid attention too. We've brought Jita to a halt and our collective outrage has caused CCP to stop on a dime and swing towards us with open ears. The CSM has been summoned for an emergency meeting, something that has only happened once before.
So now it may be time to reflect on what we've done. As a community we've come together to express our collective outrage, something I'm personally impressed and excited about. That seems strange though, to use the word 'excited', doesn't it? It's not that I'm not worried but my 'excitement' comes from this communities ability to be so loud, so mighty and so powerful that for brief moments in time we are nothing short of glorious supernovae in the proverbial galaxy of pinpoints that is gaming as a medium.
So, what do we do now? For me, and as many of the CSMs that can make it we will carry the torch of outrage to CCP. We'll stand at Zeus's foot and in your name we'll roar so loud that Olympus will shake. But this is where your opinions and mine may diverge, friends. I don't see our custodians of content as enemies. I can't because I've seen CCP Soundwave reminisce with CSM Seleene about some of the greatest events in EVEs history because he was there. I've sat and talked to CCP Tallest about how this game is balanced, and when I thought he might be getting bored of me he pulled me back because he wanted to talk about EVE with the sort of passion only someone who plaid the damn game would have. I've watched CCP Hilmar (an enemy as we've made him) tell The Mittani about how people in the gaming industry laughed at him when he talked about EVE, and yet here we all are. We walked through the art department knowing that these people spend many a night actually sleeping at the office and working into the wee hours because this was and still is their passion.
CCP isn't really an enemy to me and hey I'm sorry if you don't like that. CCP isn't infallible, they've boned this one, yeah I'm going to tell you that because its the truth. But they've never been infallible, so its our job to make sure that we steer them in the right direction because without the community Captaining this great ship to her ports of call we're all going to sink.
So what I'm asking you for now, as your CSM, as a member of the community and as an EVE player is a moment of patience. They know they fumbled the ball and they're calling half-time to sort their heads and we're going to be the coach that gives them the pep talk and sets them straight so that we, the denizens of New Eden can continue to enjoy this entirely unique and intricate experience.
I am sat down, but I am mentally standing up in pure ovation for this post. It screams trust honour respect and most of all, truth. I can only ask for CCP to do the same.
Alot are unsubbing but personally I feel that everyone messes up and yeah CCP messed up this one, but alot has to change. In my opinion the smallest things matter as much as the bigger things.
1. Being truthful about patch days because the ETAs are so bad its beyond thought and have been for the 4 years I've played.
2. CCP have to begin to answer questions within the forums put forth to them by players, this for me is very important as that shows exponentially that CCP do in fact care about our thoughts and opinions.
3. CCP have got to realise with all importance that without us the subbing player, they lose many millions of Dollars/Euros per month. But its catch 22 they know were hooked on the game [and quite rightfully so its awesome] So yeah we need CCP but without us CCP loses that revenue and possibly goes bankrupt.
You have to realise that the game must evolve the way the player wants, not the way ccp forsee.
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Salpun
Gallente Paramount Commerce
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Posted - 2011.06.28 18:15:00 -
[409]
Good post and good luck.
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Asura Cascade
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Posted - 2011.06.28 18:21:00 -
[410]
Good luck. Myself and many others are counting on you.
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diaufop
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Posted - 2011.06.28 18:22:00 -
[411]
Edited by: diaufop on 28/06/2011 18:22:48 This interview makes it abundantly clear that the CSM's flying out to Iceland can, and will, achieve nothing despite all of White Tree's flowery prose.
A few paraphrases from the interview:
"We're never going to say "NO" to pay-to-win, because ultimately we will introduce them the moment we think we can garner more profit from them than we lose in subscriptions" - nothing new there, it's what we've been saying for the past week.
"The statements from the newsletter and e-mail were taken out of context". The newsletter perhaps - although it's very clear that the newsletter was a NEWSletter and is used as an internal propaganda device to ensure everyone in the company is one the same page, not as a "discussion provoker". Only soundwave and turbefield's articles were "discussion", the rest was pure statement of intent.
As for the e-mail, it was quoted wholly verbatim, how the **** is that out of context?
"CCP have already decided what they're going to say and the CSM will be used as a tool to rubber-stamp our decisions and present them to the players." As we all expected anyway.
How does it feel to be played for fools, oh mighty CSM? To be used as the PR stunt you avow you aren't?
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Brian Regyri
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Posted - 2011.06.28 18:26:00 -
[412]
So, because you have met a few of the folks at CCP and know them personally, we should all simply be quiet about the recent changes to the game and just bend over?
People have been pointing out bugs and glitches and everything that's wrong before the expansion was released. Our voices were not heard then, and we definitely will not silence ourselves after they have failed to listen to us! Can we vote to remove people from the CSM?
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Jangotat
Minmatar Jolly Codgers Get Off My Lawn
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Posted - 2011.06.28 18:26:00 -
[413]
Originally by: Dr Valeri
Originally by: Ciar Meara
Originally by: Fromancia Here are some news J=n H÷r=dal J=nasson COO - CCP confirms that they will never say that they will not sell game changing stuff in the aur store. He also says that he is not worried that many players are going to quit. MBL News service Icelandic
We have not been heared
We have been ignored and played
Great, minutes after I posted my "positive view"-post...
I check back and find this...after my positive post /facepalm
Well the fact remains for those of us that have wanted resolution, which I personally think 90% of players involved have wanted, we need to take a breath and see what this weekend brings. Let us just hope this guy is spouting off his own opinion of what the direction should be. If not, and he is just mouthing the actual company position? There will be a whole bunch of us starting over in a new game.
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Hyperforce99
Gallente The Scope
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Posted - 2011.06.28 18:38:00 -
[414]
Edited by: Hyperforce99 on 28/06/2011 18:39:19
Originally by: Jangotat
Originally by: Dr Valeri
Originally by: Ciar Meara
Originally by: Fromancia Here are some news J=n H÷r=dal J=nasson COO - CCP confirms that they will never say that they will not sell game changing stuff in the aur store. He also says that he is not worried that many players are going to quit. MBL News service Icelandic
We have not been heared
We have been ignored and played
Great, minutes after I posted my "positive view"-post...
I check back and find this...after my positive post /facepalm
Well the fact remains for those of us that have wanted resolution, which I personally think 90% of players involved have wanted, we need to take a breath and see what this weekend brings. Let us just hope this guy is spouting off his own opinion of what the direction should be. If not, and he is just mouthing the actual company position? There will be a whole bunch of us starting over in a new game.
quoted directly from google translator:
John says that the games production as CCP can not bring such a statement, but asserts that it will never be able to buy a victory in EVE Online, designed to be both.
Don't just selectively pick a line, take the entire sentence damnit. --------------------------------------------- Somewhere beyond happyness and sadness, I need to calculate what creates my own madness o/
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Ban Doga
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Posted - 2011.06.28 19:39:00 -
[415]
Originally by: Chainfall cross posting this - from the vote of no confidence thread.
Originally by: Fromancia Here are some news J=n H÷r=dal J=nasson COO - CCP confirms that they will never say that they will not sell game changing stuff in the aur store. He also says that he is not worried that many players are going to quit. MBL News service Icelandic
Yep, we were heard. And ignored. I guess Hilmar was all serious when he said "Stay the course".
So we shouldn't worry about unsubbing or rioting or bad press or anything else. CCP isn't worried and they must know, because they are awesome, right?!
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Viking Sven
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Posted - 2011.06.28 19:44:00 -
[416]
I love their business tactic. Charge Eve players more for less, try to make 2 games they can't afford, disregard Eve players quitting, continue to not be able to afford other 2 games.
I cannot for the life of me figure out what the hell they're trying to do.
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Kirika Misono
The Eiken Club
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Posted - 2011.06.28 19:49:00 -
[417]
Originally by: Nishachara
SO SAY WE ALL!
LOL No, so says a group of loudmouths that greifed everyone else and threw thier weight around. Again, how are you different from LULSEC again?
Originally by: Clementina If you bug report it, you get ignored. If you post about it on the forums, you get banned. If you exploit it, you get rich.
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Janos Saal
Corp 54 Curatores Veritatis Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.28 19:53:00 -
[418]
Edited by: Janos Saal on 28/06/2011 19:53:00
Originally by: Nishachara Again, how are you different from LULSEC again?
We pay CCP's wages.
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
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Posted - 2011.06.28 19:57:00 -
[419]
Originally by: Janos Saal Edited by: Janos Saal on 28/06/2011 19:53:00
Originally by: Nishachara Again, how are you different from LULSEC again?
We pay CCP's wages.
No you don't.
You quit.
Go away.
Mr Epeen
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Elrica bloodbane
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Posted - 2011.06.28 19:58:00 -
[420]
translated by google from islandic Talk amongst key
"Transparency is one of the basic values of workers and the CCP in the newsletter include the views of employees and managers who are used to form the overall company. Once information was played on the internet players were angry statements from the context that led to even greater anger among the players. The same thing happened with the content of emails sent to Hilmar. "Jerry said.
The third issue that has a lot of anger olli= players is that they require management to certify that the CCP will not be able to buy practical things, "functional" with money in the future, so people will be able to buy a victory. Democratically elected counsel will meet this week
John says that the games production as CCP can not bring such a statement, but asserts that it will never be able to buy a victory in EVE Online, designed to be both.
CCP has called for their democratically elected expect players from all over the world this week which will be discussed ways of how the introduction of products for sale in EVE will be presented.
That way players will encounter a society is most comfortable with, and press releases will be sent out subsequently.
John does not particularly concerned that many people will quit playing the game because of changes in product mix in the game.
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