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kannilaw
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:03:00 -
[1]
I keep hearing this over and over again so I thought I would take time to clarify so it makes sense to all this is meant to be a constructive thread,If you have something constructive to add please feel free to do so. there are many threads of EMO rage and what not elsewhere
whats is not pay to win 1. can a player buy a GTC with cash and sell it for isk ? YES 2. can he buy ships with isk ? duh ! we all do or your playing the game wrong 3. can he buy high sp characters with isk ? yes if he wants and some one is selling their character they worked to make
none of that is a pay 2 win as we can all do it if we want its been here along time and the sand box is just fine as it is
What is pay 2 win ?? And what we hope to never see (a few examples feel free to post others)
1. can he buy a model 5000 GM mega death-ray of face melting, one shot one kill doom ,that not only kills you when it hits you but blows up every ship in your corp or alliance whether they are docked or not ? No he cant and never should be as this would be pay2win
2 ok how about a one and only : super invincible GM sanctioned concord modified titan of multifaction faction origins a ship so powerful it doesn't need guns cause it has ramming ability and rips through a carrier like paper
no this would be pay2win
3 can he pay concord to look the other way while he empire gangs noobs or buy back his sec status when he pirates NO this would be pay2 win
4 ok how about buying my own system for only me and my corp that only we can access the star gates so we can care bear all day and make tons of isk with no interference No not only would this be pay 2 win it would get down right boring
do you get the idea now ?????
ok donning flame ******ant underwear fire away
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Tugrath Akers
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:05:00 -
[2]
How much aurum for that 5000 GM mega death-ray of face melting?
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Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:05:00 -
[3]
You were dropped on your head as a child, weren't you?
Mr Epeen
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:05:00 -
[4]
SP for AUR isn't pay2win!
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Amanda Maricadie
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:06:00 -
[5]
how about 10x SP Cards so u gain 10x sp every month! only available for characters in game for less than a year..is that Pay2Win or play to catch up ?
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:10:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Amanda Maricadie how about 10x SP Cards so u gain 10x sp every month! only available for characters in game for less than a year..is that Pay2Win or play to catch up ?
It's pay2ignoremechanics, which is much the same thing.
If we go down that route, I would like to pay to ignore the mechanics that calculate HP loss on my ship.
Also, "catching up" isn't really an applicable concept to the EVE skill system. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP |
Jim Hakomairos
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:10:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Jim Hakomairos on 28/06/2011 21:13:16
Originally by: kannilaw I keep hearing this over and over again so I thought I would take time to clarify so it makes sense to all this is meant to be a constructive thread,If you have something constructive to add please feel free to do so. there are many threads of EMO rage and what not elsewhere
whats is not pay to win 1. can a player buy a GTC with cash and sell it for isk ? YES 2. can he buy ships with isk ? duh ! we all do or your playing the game wrong
Originally by: kannilaw
none of that is a pay 2 win as we can all do it if we want its been here along time and the sand box is just fine as it is
You don't know what you're talking about, right? What does that mean? If it's been here for a long time, and it's FINE it's not pay to win? What we dont wan't is that it gets more and more present, I guess. Either that, or I don't know what I want.
To make it more understandable for other people:
If you buy PLEX for 30' 000 $, you've already won (probably not rly ), but if you buy for 5 million $ you won. For sure.
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Amanda Maricadie
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:12:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Amanda Maricadie how about 10x SP Cards so u gain 10x sp every month! only available for characters in game for less than a year..is that Pay2Win or play to catch up ?
It's pay2ignoremechanics, which is much the same thing.
If we go down that route, I would like to pay to ignore the mechanics that calculate HP loss on my ship.
Also, "catching up" isn't really an applicable concept to the EVE skill system.
lol u never know with all the updates that CCP has been doing to make this game more "NEWBIE" friendly to attract new people to play this game and stick with it..they might just somehow introduce this new item so they can better compete with the "pros" in the game
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:14:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Amanda Maricadie they might just somehow introduce this new item so they can better compete with the "pros" in the game
That item already exists. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP |
kannilaw
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:14:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Jennifer Starling SP for AUR isn't pay2win!
not if you buy an already established character no but if you start a noob character and then are able to pay to max all his skills instantly!! yes that would be because that defeats the purpose of training and we would have 60 thousand titan/motherships roaming
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Jennifer Starling
Imperial Navy Forum Patrol
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:16:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Amanda Maricadie how about 10x SP Cards so u gain 10x sp every month! only available for characters in game for less than a year..is that Pay2Win or play to catch up ?
It's pay2ignoremechanics, which is much the same thing.
If we go down that route, I would like to pay to ignore the mechanics that calculate HP loss on my ship.
Also, "catching up" isn't really an applicable concept to the EVE skill system.
Nah .. you can't "win" EVE!! |
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:17:00 -
[12]
PLEX is pay 2 win. But it was a compromise. It helps fight RMT. It helps players play for less money and/or manage more accounts. It doesn't mess up the in-game economy. It doesn't give CCP the incentive to break things and then sell the 'fixes' back to us. It doesn't give CCP an incentive to stop improving the overall game.
Aurum only benefits CCP and hurts EVE. Hilmar watched that video about MT and thought it sounded brilliant. But it only works in a F2P game. He's going to find that out the hard way.
tl;dr You clarified nothing. Please stop trying to explain things you don't understand. If I want to hear clueless mewling I'll tune in to Lost in EVE or read a devblog.
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Amanda Maricadie
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:17:00 -
[13]
Originally by: kannilaw
Originally by: Jennifer Starling SP for AUR isn't pay2win!
not if you buy an already established character no but if you start a noob character and then are able to pay to max all his skills instantly!! yes that would be because that defeats the purpose of training and we would have 60 thousand titan/motherships roaming
lol not saying they are allowed to max out their skills immidiately but to make training skills faster...with items like 10x SP cards sold monthly XD
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Amanda Maricadie
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:20:00 -
[14]
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson PLEX is pay 2 win. But it was a compromise. It helps fight RMT. It helps players play for less money and/or manage more accounts. It doesn't mess up the in-game economy. It doesn't give CCP the incentive to break things and then sell the 'fixes' back to us. It doesn't give CCP an incentive to stop improving the overall game.
Aurum only benefits CCP and hurts EVE. Hilmar watched that video about MT and thought it sounded brilliant. But it only works in a F2P game. He's going to find that out the hard way.
tl;dr You clarified nothing. Please stop trying to explain things you don't understand. If I want to hear clueless mewling I'll tune in to Lost in EVE or read a devblog.
err it worked for other games also thats not FPS....if u doubt go look up "Nexon" they have games from FPS to MMORPG i even think they have a new RTS game out and they are all F2P and they all have their own version of MT
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kannilaw
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:26:00 -
[15]
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson PLEX is pay 2 win. But it was a compromise. It helps fight RMT. It helps players play for less money and/or manage more accounts. It doesn't mess up the in-game economy. It doesn't give CCP the incentive to break things and then sell the 'fixes' back to us. It doesn't give CCP an incentive to stop improving the overall game.
Aurum only benefits CCP and hurts EVE. Hilmar watched that video about MT and thought it sounded brilliant. But it only works in a F2P game. He's going to find that out the hard way.
tl;dr You clarified nothing. Please stop trying to explain things you don't understand. If I want to hear clueless mewling I'll tune in to Lost in EVE or read a devblog.
MT is a different issue Yes I know all about what you are saying and, its on plenty of other posts about MT affect on market and the evils of AUR. this is strictly on pay2win.The plex system does not yet break the sandbox Im trying to keep this to what would be game changers
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Nullshadow
Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:36:00 -
[16]
Personally I do not consider learning acceleration in moderation a P2Win situation. The difference between the character abilities of a 1-month, 6-month, and 12-month character are all significant. The difference between a 1-year old character and a 3-year old character is less so - after a point most of your gains are in the versatility to do more things, not in how good you are at doing one specific thing. So I would see a time-limited NeX consumable that let someone double their SP growth and that could be consumed repeatedly until they reach 10mil SP or so as acceptable. The player still needs to learn how to pilot the ships effectively, and the moderate acceleration means that they still have to put time in doing so, but it takes a few months instead of a year to catch up on the passive bonuses granted by in-game skills.
Examples of P2Win in my book: - Repairs in space (whether it is shields, armor, hull, capacitor, or module damage) - Items that increase any ship or module performance statistic in space (e.g. speed, agility, sensor strength, drone bandwidth) - Immunity to EWar for any period of time (esp. consumables adding warp core stabilization)
Examples that are not clear-cut P2Win, but which undermine the player economy and in the right situation could affect the course of a battle or war and thus are also bad in my opinion: - Buying ships out of vapor - Buying T2 or named modules out of vapor - Buying ammunition out of vapor
The community is not monolithic on what is P2Win and not, and all of our opinions are of similar merit. There's nothing wrong in each of us putting out our opinion, except insofar as CCP probably cannot keep up with that much feedback. |
AkJon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:43:00 -
[17]
When I started playing this game, there were people with a hundred million skillpoints in the game.
I didn't whine. I didn't ask for EZ mode. I played.
That's what EVE is. That's what new players (and CCP) need to accept.
If they can't, there are a lot of other games out there.
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alt9854
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:51:00 -
[18]
If the surplus of PLEX is hurting Eve and is making CCP think of ways of destroying them couldn't they get rid of the RMT/botters for good, and then they could buy and destroy PLEX straight from the market. There wouldn't be any more isk being injected into the market because there won't be any botters doing it instead CCP would - and we wouldn't have to know!
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General Windypops
The Littlest Hobos En Garde
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Posted - 2011.06.28 21:55:00 -
[19]
Who is this 'we' that you are talking about who don't want pay to win?
I think it's a brilliant idea that people can pay for a little boost or two. I actually think it's pretty reasonable that someone like me, who has a pretty high powered job with long hours, should be able to relax and enjoy the game in exactly the same way that some lazy arsed student who lives with mummy and dady can.
To ask the question another way, is it fair that I should be penalised just for R/L success?
CSM 6: Let's get Windypops indypops. |
Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.06.28 22:01:00 -
[20]
Originally by: General Windypops I actually think it's pretty reasonable that someone like me, who has a pretty high powered job with long hours, should be able to relax and enjoy the game in exactly the same way that some lazy arsed student who lives with mummy and dady can.
Guess what? You already can. EVE is pretty special that way, and ruining that with P2W stuff would pretty much have the opposite effect of what you're looking for. ùùù ôWe want to try this thing called micro-transactions, but we don't know what it is. Can anyone explainà aw screw it, let's just do it! What could go wrong?ö ù ÇÇP |
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kannilaw
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Posted - 2011.06.28 22:32:00 -
[21]
Originally by: AkJon Ferguson When I started playing this game, there were people with a hundred million skillpoints in the game.
I didn't whine. I didn't ask for EZ mode. I played.
That's what EVE is. That's what new players (and CCP) need to accept.
If they can't, there are a lot of other games out there.
+1 here we agree on that point all of my characters i started from scratch we all have to pay our dues time wise even if someone else did it for you when you bought a character from them some one still took time to make the character what it is sp wise
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.06.28 22:34:00 -
[22]
Originally by: General Windypops I actually think it's pretty reasonable that someone like me, who has a pretty high powered job with long hours, should be able to relax and enjoy the game in exactly the same way that some lazy arsed student who lives with mummy and dady can.
To ask the question another way, is it fair that I should be penalised just for R/L success?
PLEX buys someone else's time. You exchange your hard earned dollars for someone else's hard earned ISK. After that, you get to participate in the usual game mechanics of buying ships and modules from the market, etc.
P2W would be where you can buy a ship from the NeX without having to go pick it up or have it delivered to you, and totally bypassing the player economy in the meantime. Everyone accrues SP at the same rate - or at least has the capacity to do so; remapping to Per/Wil and training Int/Mem skills probably isn't the best idea. Buying SP boosters bypasses the game mechanic of skill training, so that is effectively another Pay to Win situation.
NPC Corp standings can be important too. They impact jump clones, refining efficiency, cost of trade. Here again the concept of buying NPC Corp standings from NeX is bypassing game mechanics. The appropriate mechanism is to trade someone's time for your ISK to gring this standings for you.
Outlandish examples like "mega death rays" do not help the discussion, since P2W items will be available to everyone equally. It is not just the impact these items have on combat, but the entire player-driven economy where buying an item from NeX eliminates a market for some capsuleer to manufacture and deliver that product.
Even the existing clothing is bypassing the players, you buy the clothes and they appear in your hangar. No one manufactured them, there was never a decision that had to be made between producing a black skirt or coolant.
We already have high-meta items which are "magicked" into the game, with no ability for players to invent them. This has to change.
[ Australian players join channel ANZAC ] |
Ocih
Amarr Space Mermaids
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Posted - 2011.06.28 22:35:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Mr Epeen You were dropped on your head as a child, weren't you?
Mr Epeen
You were dropped by the nurse after your mother left you in a dumpster?
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kannilaw
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Posted - 2011.06.28 22:39:00 -
[24]
Originally by: General Windypops Who is this 'we' that you are talking about who don't want pay to win?
I think it's a brilliant idea that people can pay for a little boost or two. I actually think it's pretty reasonable that someone like me, who has a pretty high powered job with long hours, should be able to relax and enjoy the game in exactly the same way that some lazy arsed student who lives with mummy and dady can.
To ask the question another way, is it fair that I should be penalised just for R/L success?
boost ? as in buying a high sp character someone already trained ? yeah thats fine people do it all the time boost? as in faster training time than is now possible in eve game mechanic ? NO thats pay2win see the 60 thousand TITAN comment in my original post
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ThatDudeThere
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Posted - 2011.06.28 22:51:00 -
[25]
All I want to know is how much Aur to get my Learning skills back!
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kannilaw
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Posted - 2011.06.28 23:04:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
P2W would be where you can buy a ship from the NeX without having to go pick it up or have it delivered to you, and totally bypassing the player economy in the meantime. Everyone accrues SP at the same rate - or at least has the capacity to do so; remapping to Per/Wil and training Int/Mem skills probably isn't the best idea. Buying SP boosters bypasses the game mechanic of skill training, so that is effectively another Pay to Win situation.
Actually this is not all pay2 win don't get me wrong i agree bypassing the economy is bad , this would be more pay direct to ccp and yes I am a firm believer that if they sell any ship or mods nex it should be a bpc that way the market still has some involvement but these are points covered in other posts. as for the SP thing i totally agree with you
Originally by: Mara Rinn
NPC Corp standings can be important too. They impact jump clones, refining efficiency, cost of trade. Here again the concept of buying NPC Corp standings from NeX is bypassing game mechanics. The appropriate mechanism is to trade someone's time for your ISK to gring this standings for you.
correct! a lot of people including me actually make ISK off of character with high standings this way , by going into a corp for 7 days to help them get the standing for a POS jump clones etc... and charge a fee to do so so yes any change to how this is done would affect game play for a lot of folks
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Outlandish examples like "mega death rays" do not help the discussion, since P2W items will be available to everyone equally. It is not just the impact these items have on combat, but the entire player-driven economy where buying an item from NeX eliminates a market for some capsuleer to manufacture and deliver that product.
actually i wanted to go outlandish as possible because if you see the other threads there some guys asking for crazy stuff
Originally by: Mara Rinn Even the existing clothing is bypassing the players, you buy the clothes and they appear in your hangar. No one manufactured them, there was never a decision that had to be made between producing a black skirt or coolant.
We already have high-meta items which are "magicked" into the game, with no ability for players to invent them. This has to change.
I already covered how i think any nex items should be in bpc form but yes i agree with you
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Ezra Vouland
Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.06.28 23:07:00 -
[27]
Taking orders for 5000 GM mega death-ray of face melting that you can buy with isk, since Ill use the copious amount of isk I have to buy plex to buy arum to make more isk.
OP is clueless. Money begets money if its internetspacemoney or cash money son.
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General Xenophon
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Posted - 2011.06.28 23:10:00 -
[28]
Edited by: General Xenophon on 28/06/2011 23:11:04 I wouldn't mind the 'idea' of allowing someone to pay 'rent' to use ships, like say a 'hulk' as a new player to see how that works.. If it cost money for user to buy / rent the hulk and...
wait a minute. That completley breaks the in-game economy of training, saving, spending, more training, saving, spending that's required to train a new char to get into a hulk. So no. I wouldn't want any kind of ship that doesn't require skills, ship that just that's just 'poof!' there, or any ship of any kind that comes from the Item Shop of horrors CCP wants to add. Beyond the fact that anyone could get around a system like this (even if paying money) and find a way to make more isk from it than the cost.. always a loophole..
Yes they're not adding 'Gold Ammo', but any other item, ship, or anything beyond vanity (looks = vanity in this case), shouldn't be implemented because it's simply game breaking.
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vasuul
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Posted - 2011.06.28 23:13:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Nullshadow
Examples of P2Win in my book: - Repairs in space (whether it is shields, armor, hull, capacitor, or module damage) - Items that increase any ship or module performance statistic in space (e.g. speed, agility, sensor strength, drone bandwidth) - Immunity to EWar for any period of time (esp. consumables adding warp core stabilization)
I can only assume you mean other than the means that are out there already aka.... logistics ships reppers repper drones not trying to be a smartypants just saying most of this can be all done to some extent now if you either have the right set up or the right fleet
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Ezra Vouland
Lords 0f Justice Fidelas Constans
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Posted - 2011.06.28 23:14:00 -
[30]
Originally by: vasuul
Originally by: Nullshadow
Examples of P2Win in my book: - Repairs in space (whether it is shields, armor, hull, capacitor, or module damage) - Items that increase any ship or module performance statistic in space (e.g. speed, agility, sensor strength, drone bandwidth) - Immunity to EWar for any period of time (esp. consumables adding warp core stabilization)
I can only assume you mean other than the means that are out there already aka.... logistics ships reppers repper drones not trying to be a smartypants just saying most of this can be all done to some extent now if you either have the right set up or the right fleet
Further supporting belief most these people dont actually play the game.
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