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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Noriko Mai
565
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Posted - 2012.09.16 01:21:00 -
[31] - Quote
Paul Oliver wrote:Noriko Mai wrote:Trendon Evenstar wrote:kilmenow Hakaari wrote:when you buy a ship, your paying isk for that asset. when that asset is destroyed, the isk you paid to the guy that sold you the ship, is still in his or her wallet. When you buy your replacement ship, that isk goes to whomever you paid for your new asset.
So the isk doesn't leave the eve economy. I'm gonna let you think about what you just typed. I'm gonna let you think about what you just typed. I'm still thinking about what he typed and I still don't get it. If I sell you a ship for 50M ISK, I have your 50M in my wallet. If you ship explodes no ISK leaves the system. If you insure your ship with 5M and get a 30M payout, 25M are printed out of nothing. |
kilmenow Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.09.16 01:26:00 -
[32] - Quote
I'm not saying I have too much isk. I'm space poor. There have been years of ratting and mission running in game and most of that isk is still in the economy. The inflation is just too damn high.
A majority of the points presented in the state of the eve economy presentation have not been addressed by CCP. I'd just like to know if they plan on making any changes before the next fanfest. They don't have much time left before the code would have to be writen, tested, approved, tested again, and then finally sent to the live servers. |
Paul Oliver
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2515
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 01:28:00 -
[33] - Quote
Noriko Mai wrote:If I sell you a ship for 50M ISK, I have your 50M in my wallet. If you ship explodes no ISK leaves the system. If you insure your ship with 5M and get a 30M payout, 25M are printed out of nothing. Thank you. "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must undergo the fatigues of supporting it." - Thomas Paine |
Trendon Evenstar
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
51
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Posted - 2012.09.16 01:32:00 -
[34] - Quote
Ok here we go: on it's own- isk has very little value aside from it's purchasing power. Insurance payouts are determined arbitrarily from the base mineral value of a ships hull. All ships and and modules are created from minerals. Minerals are the building blocks of New Eden.
Regardless of how I aquired said hull, it always will have a base mineral value, thereby- destroying it is the same as if I came along and blew up your jetcan full of minerals. You just lost that commodity. |
Noriko Mai
566
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Posted - 2012.09.16 01:35:00 -
[35] - Quote
Trendon Evenstar wrote:Ok here we go: on it's own- isk has very little value aside from it's purchasing power. Insurance payouts are determined arbitrarily from the base mineral value of a ships hull. All ships and and modules are created from minerals. Minerals are the building blocks of New Eden.
Regardless of how I aquired said hull, it always will have a base mineral value, thereby- destroying it is the same as if I came along and blew up your jetcan full of minerals. You just lost that commodity. Who cares about lost commodities? It's about ISK... And commodities for itself are worthless... |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9506
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Posted - 2012.09.16 01:40:00 -
[36] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:I bow down to Tippias superior knowledge, I assumed that lost uninsured ship = lost isk The error is (usually) in thinking that GǣvalueGǥ is equivalent to GǣISKGǥ, which is an easy one to make since that's generally the unit we use to measure valueGǪ even when what we measure isn't actual GǣiskiesGǥ but stuff that can be traded for ISK.
For further illustration, let's run a small simulation:
1. Player A has 100M ISK. Player B has various material with a market value of 50M ISK. The economy holds stuff worth 150M ISK total, but only 100M of that is actual ISK.
2. Player B builds a ship from the material. That ship has a market value of 80M ISK. Player B has used various time-consuming mechanics to add value to his items. The economy now holds stuff worth 180M ISK total, but only 100M of that is actual ISK.
3. Player A buys the ship from player B. Player A now has 20M ISK and a ship worth 80M. Player B has 80M ISKGǪ GǪbut also activates the ISK sink called Gǣsales taxGǥ which in this scenario removes 1% of the traded ISK, or 800k ISK. The economy now holds stuff worth 179.2M ISK total, of which 99.2M is actual ISK.
4. Player A insures his ship for the remaining 20M. This is another ISK sink that removes ISK from the economy. Player B still has his 79.2M ISK; player A has no ISK, but a ship worth 80M ISK. The economy now holds stuff worth 159.2M ISK total, of which only 79.2M is actual ISK.
5. Player A gets himself blown up and gets 80M back from his insurance policy. GǪthis is an ISK faucet that adds ISK, but at the same time, the destruction is an item sink that removes the ship. Player B still has his 79.2M ISK. The economy now holds stuff worth 159.2M ISK, all of which is in the form of actual ISK.
If A hadn't insured his ship in step #4, the ending would have looked a bit (but not all that much) different:
4b. Player A doesn't insure his ship and keeps the 20M. Player B still has his 79.2M ISK; player A has 20M ISK + an 80M ISK ship. The economy holds stuff worth 179.2M ISK total (unsurprisingly since nothing changed since step #3).
5b. Player A gets himself blown up and gets the base 40% insurance GÇö 32M ISK in this case. GǪthis is an ISK faucet that adds ISK, but at the same time, the destruction is an item sink that removes the ship. Player A thus has 52M ISK. Player B still has his 79.2M ISK. The economy now holds stuff worth 131.2M ISK, all of which is in the form of actual ISK.
Note that in the first case, we go from having 100M actual ISK in the economy at step #1 to having a whopping 159.2M ISK in step #5, due to that insurance payout. Note also that in the second case, we also have more actual ISK in the end than we started out with GÇö 131.2M compared to the starting 100M GÇö since the insurance payout still takes place, only with a smaller payout. Also note that in the second case, the initial ISK sink that is the insurance policy payment isn't activated.
These days, however, there is a way to remove ISK through ship destruction, but you'd be pretty stupid (or clumsy) to have it happenGǪ so let's do the third case starting at step #4 again:
4c. Player A insures his ship for the remaining 20M. This is another ISK sink that removes ISK from the economy. Player B still has his 79.2M ISK; player A has no ISK, but a ship worth 80M ISK. The economy now holds stuff worth 159.2M ISK total, of which only 79.2M is actual ISK.
5c. Player A gets himself CONCORDED and doesn't get any insurance. GǪthis means the ISK faucet isn't actuavted and the destruction (obviously) still removes the ship. Player A now has nothing GÇö no ISK and no ship. Player B still has his 79.2M ISK. The economy now holds stuff worth 79.2M ISK, all of which is in the form of actual ISK.
Here we have a one-two punch of first activating one sink (the insurance policy cost) that remove ISK and then a failure to activate a corresponding faucet that normally would have counter-acted that sink. Both of these factors are needed. If player A hadn't insured his ship, the end total worth of the economy would have been 99.2M ISK (79.2M owned by player B, and 20M owned by player A), and the only loss in the process would have been the sales tax.
Thus endeth the lesson. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1768
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Posted - 2012.09.16 01:55:00 -
[37] - Quote
kilmenow Hakaari wrote:If anyone remebers the state of the eve economy presentation by the good doctor, one problem he brought forth is that there is too much isk flowing into the economy. I have a potential solution that might also help with the large blocks controlling most of null sec.
Sov bills are paid every 2 weeks on systems with tcu's turned on, the more systems you "own" the more you pay. What about the membership? What I propose is a fee issued by some NPC corp for some reason like administration fees (or whatever BS CCP decides). The size of the fee would be based on the number of members withing the alliance. Small alliances would hardly notice the charge, extrememly large alliances would have fees in the billions per week.
weekly fee schedule:
up to 10 members 10k isk up to 100 members 100k isk up to 1000 members 1 million isk up to 2000 members 10 million isk up to 3000 members 100 million isk up to 4000 members 1 billion isk up to 5000 members 10 billion isk up to 6000 members 100 billion isk up to 7000 members 1 trillion isk
and so on
I'm not sure of the numbers of alliances out there, but this should help reduce the isk in the economy from the entities that have, on average, the most isk.
This could be a conflict driver. I can see some mega alliances saving money by spliting into smaller parts. There might be some in fighting or battles between alliances that would open the door to fresh blood in null sec sov.
Just a thought. Let the discussion and trolling begin
I assume this exponentially rising cost would also be applied to the members of the largest corps/alliances in the game (NPC corps)
Going by your table, that'd be about about 1 billion ISK per week per NPC corp member. If not I guess they'd go into negative ISK amounts. I am OK with this. |
kilmenow Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.09.16 01:57:00 -
[38] - Quote
that would be nice, but it's a "tax" on alliances. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1768
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 01:59:00 -
[39] - Quote
kilmenow Hakaari wrote:that would be nice, but it's a "tax" on alliances. Right, and NPC corps are an alliance. An NPC-corp owned alliance, to be specific. So if you were taxed 1 bil a week using your own system, you'd be cool with that, right?
Gotta solve that problem of too much ISK, right? |
kilmenow Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.09.16 02:00:00 -
[40] - Quote
most of the code is already there since there is a skill check on the executive corp's ceo for the corp management skill. Otherwise for membership numbers, I'd think they could use a weighted daily average for the week to determine what fee the alliance would pay. |
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kilmenow Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.09.16 02:02:00 -
[41] - Quote
I'd be perfectly fine with that. I'm not the one paying the fee, the alliance would be. Simularly how an alliance is currently billed 2 million a month per corp. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1768
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 02:07:00 -
[42] - Quote
kilmenow Hakaari wrote:I'd be perfectly fine with that. I'm not the one paying the fee, the alliance would be. Simularly how an alliance is currently billed 2 million a month per corp. There'd have to be some tinkering, but I'm sure it's totally within CCP's capacity to arrange it so pass along the one bil a week cost per capita directly onto the NPC corp member. NPC corp management must pay their bills somehow, perhaps they could just set bounty taxes to 100% forever, along with NPC corp-owned stations setting refining tax to 100% as well. Totally possible.
I mean, large alliances are a problem as you say, and NPC corps are the largest alliances in the game. Therefore its only right that NPC corps and their members eat the brunt of the 'alliance membership fee'. |
Selinate
990
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Posted - 2012.09.16 02:08:00 -
[43] - Quote
Jonah Gravenstein wrote:If the OP feels that there is too much ISK in the game he should failfit some ludicrously expensive ships with insanely expensive modules and try and get through Tama or Old Man Star with them intact.
Does not remove isk from the economy. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1768
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 02:13:00 -
[44] - Quote
I'm not sure if bounty taxes could cover the 1 bil per NPC corp member fee.
Perhaps they need something like a 200-300% bounty tax on their ratting in order to come up with the figure.
Whatever it takes to solve the isk injection, no matter the cost (onto NPC corps). |
kilmenow Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.09.16 02:15:00 -
[45] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:kilmenow Hakaari wrote:I'd be perfectly fine with that. I'm not the one paying the fee, the alliance would be. Simularly how an alliance is currently billed 2 million a month per corp. There'd have to be some tinkering, but I'm sure it's totally within CCP's capacity to arrange it so pass along the one bil a week cost per capita directly onto the NPC corp member. NPC corp management must pay their bills somehow, perhaps they could just set bounty taxes to 100% forever, along with NPC corp-owned stations setting refining tax to 100% as well. Totally possible. I mean, large alliances are a problem as you say, and NPC corps are the largest alliances in the game. Therefore its only right that NPC corps and their members eat the brunt of the 'alliance membership fee'.
good troll, however, since it's an npc corp/alliance the funds supposidly owned or held by them is already out of the economy. That is unless you consider the isk npc's pay for items like the book drops from wh's and reintroduction of that isk that the good doctor refers to as being removed from the economy. |
Azazel Shardani
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.09.16 02:15:00 -
[46] - Quote
Send all the risk to me. That will solve the problem.
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kilmenow Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.09.16 02:17:00 -
[47] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:I'm not sure if bounty taxes could cover the 1 bil per NPC corp member fee.
Perhaps they need something like a 200-300% bounty tax on their ratting in order to come up with the figure.
Whatever it takes to solve the isk injection, no matter the cost (onto NPC corps).
just to clearify, it's not a bill per member, it's a fee based on the number of members in the alliance. Your a very tallented troll though. |
kilmenow Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.09.16 02:20:00 -
[48] - Quote
Azazel Shardani wrote:Send all the risk to me. That will solve the problem.
hmm, I like the idea behind it, but the isk would still be in the system.
Taxes and fees are something the doctor did hit on very hard during his presentation and we still haven't seen much in the way of an increase. Unless I missed somthing. |
Selinate
991
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 02:23:00 -
[49] - Quote
It is an interesting thing to think about, the injection of isk into the economy which undoubtedly will always be greater than that leaving the economy in Eve.
The question on everyone's mind is always whether or not should we change the balance of this source vs. sink economy we have in all MMO's. Eve in particular is very sensitive to changes in this since the game itself is so heavily dependent on the health of the economy for so many people.
I have drunk entirely too much of you damned scottish's whiskey (scotch) tonight, so forgive me for this.
**** it, I don't know how to really organize my thoughts on this right now...
I guess what I want to get across in my own opinion is that a reasonably large injection of isk into the economy over all in a way that does not produce rapid inflation but at the same time gives new players a way to make reasonable isk amounts without jumping off the deep end into heavy industry, trading, or more dangerous pursuits is optimal for the game itself. Unnoticeable inflation is perfection for an MMO like this in my opinion. We have noticed rapidly increasing prices on ships etc. in the last year or so, but I think that's from many effects of the economy and other events that have happened in the last year, such as buffs and debuffs, etc. instead of inflation.
Ergo, I'm not sure if it's such a huge problem as long as CCP keeps an active eye on it and makes sure that inflation isn't occurring at a rate that makes the isk I made yesterday worthless today. |
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Divine Power. Cascade Imminent
1768
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 02:25:00 -
[50] - Quote
kilmenow Hakaari wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:I'm not sure if bounty taxes could cover the 1 bil per NPC corp member fee.
Perhaps they need something like a 200-300% bounty tax on their ratting in order to come up with the figure.
Whatever it takes to solve the isk injection, no matter the cost (onto NPC corps). just to clearify, it's not a bill per member, it's a fee based on the number of members in the alliance. Right, and (quick check) Caldari Provisions for example has 132,381 members. I was running off the assumption that it had 10K members. So according to your proposed scaling system, dividing the alliance fee per NPC corp member, it'd actually work out to be more around a fine of 10 billion per week, not 1 billion like I said, fee per put upon the NPC corp. Since the NPC corps have to pay these fees, so it's only fitting that they'd adjust their stations' refining and bounty taxes onto their members (like any other corp or alliance) to reflect their astronomical overhead and pay their bills |
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kilmenow Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.09.16 02:36:00 -
[51] - Quote
I was looking at more of a way to reduce the isk out in the economy while trying to reduce the influence some of the mega alliances have in game.
An example could be, a CFC financial director gets drunk one night and decides the entire alliance will play for free for 1 month. He puts out a buy order for all the plex on the market and then some. He wakes up in the afternoon with a hang over and logs on to find he now owns 10,000 plex. The price overnight of plex has gone from around 500 mill each to almost 5 billion (due to being drunk and setting the buy price at 5 billion instead of 500 million). There would probably be record plex sales for ccp that day. Now the financial director has now spent 50 trillion isk (roughly 2 months worth of bounties from ratting done in all of eve). The alliance would be on the fences, but the plex could get sold back into the market limiting the losses. This is an extreme example of the shock that 1 person or 1 large alliance can have on the market, but I'd like to limit that.
Imagine the price of a drake if tons of pilots were made billionaires over night, or carriers. Plus pirates would have a field day taking out traders that buy up all the plex in other markets to sell to the mistakenly posted buy order. |
kilmenow Hakaari
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.09.16 02:39:00 -
[52] - Quote
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:kilmenow Hakaari wrote:Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:I'm not sure if bounty taxes could cover the 1 bil per NPC corp member fee.
Perhaps they need something like a 200-300% bounty tax on their ratting in order to come up with the figure.
Whatever it takes to solve the isk injection, no matter the cost (onto NPC corps). just to clearify, it's not a bill per member, it's a fee based on the number of members in the alliance. Right, and (quick check) Caldari Provisions for example has 132,381 members. I was running off the assumption that it had 10K members. So according to your proposed scaling system, dividing the alliance fee per NPC corp member (100 trillion (or 10^132 if we're scaling it up an order of magnitude per 1000 members actually)/136831), it'd actually work out to be more around a fine of 10 billion per week, not 1 billion like I said, fee per put upon the NPC corp. Since the NPC corps have to pay these fees, so it's only fitting that they'd adjust their stations' refining and bounty taxes onto their members (like any other corp or alliance) to reflect their astronomical overhead and pay their bills
but the isk held by the NPC alliances/corps are considered taken out of the eve economy in most discussions. It's considered an isk sink. |
Agent Akari
Hobo Industries Inc Orbital Bombardmant
37
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Posted - 2012.09.16 03:49:00 -
[53] - Quote
Sell pirate hats for 1 trillion isk. Solved. |
Paul Oliver
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2522
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 04:02:00 -
[54] - Quote
Agent Akari wrote:Sell pirate hats for 1 trillion isk. Solved. Hell yeah, I want a robotic parrot too.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must undergo the fatigues of supporting it." - Thomas Paine |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
2221
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 04:03:00 -
[55] - Quote
Paul Oliver wrote:Agent Akari wrote:Sell pirate hats for 1 trillion isk. Solved. Hell yeah, I want a robotic parrot too.
Like that robot owl in clash of the titans "A genius throws a Molotov cocktail and soon realizes that he's going to die choking in a maze of smoke and flame. A hero drinks a Molotov cocktail and soon realizes that if he does a split in midair, he can hit twice as many zombies per kick. Drunk hero wins again, wusses." ~Cracked.com |
Paul Oliver
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2524
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 04:10:00 -
[56] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:Like that robot owl in clash of the titans Yes EVE needs more Bubos.
"Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must undergo the fatigues of supporting it." - Thomas Paine |
Nexus Day
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
44
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Posted - 2012.09.16 04:31:00 -
[57] - Quote
Can you say virtual strippers in the captains quarters!?
Can you make ISK rain? |
Jake Warbird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1713
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 04:34:00 -
[58] - Quote
I'd vote for a robotic peg leg to go along with it. Would be so awesome! |
Paul Oliver
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2524
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 04:34:00 -
[59] - Quote
I hate Captain's quarters and WiS content, atleast until this Christmas when hopefully I get a new 2gb graphics card. "Those who expect to reap the blessings of freedom must undergo the fatigues of supporting it." - Thomas Paine |
EvEa Deva
State War Academy Caldari State
79
|
Posted - 2012.09.16 04:34:00 -
[60] - Quote
Want a huge ISK sink? let us paint our ships, inject gambling into the game, pole dancers, highsec legal drugs like quafe redbull or quafe bath salts, maybe add ship crews that can be upgraded with ISK. Anything that goes to the game and not another player. |
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