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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 01:06:00 -
[1]
First and foremost, it would probably cause a lot of crybabies to quit.
Now seriously, lets pretend they place a "NeX Siege Launcher" in the NeX store. I can still purchase this with Isk by buying a PLEX with isk, and converting it into Aur.
So, it allows me to use the non-vanity items, as well as give players who obviously suck at eve the chance to buy them with their own real money (Again, no different then buying GTC and then selling it for a Machariel.)
The argument that it would break the ingame economy? It wont. Why? Because there are countless ways to implement this without breaking the economy. Just one example: Require a trade-up of a player-built item in addition to Aur for the non-vanity item.
So now, we have non-vanity items that dont break the game economy, padding CCP's wallet, enabling them to continue growing and building eve and other games. We have eliminated the poor brats who's unintelligent opinions seem to be trashing CCP's good name for absolutely no reason, and we've kept the majority of the player base.
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Rayna Ravenoff
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Posted - 2011.06.30 01:11:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity First and foremost, it would probably cause a lot of crybabies to quit.
Now seriously, lets pretend they place a "NeX Siege Launcher" in the NeX store. I can still purchase this with Isk by buying a PLEX with isk, and converting it into Aur.
So, it allows me to use the non-vanity items, as well as give players who obviously suck at eve the chance to buy them with their own real money (Again, no different then buying GTC and then selling it for a Machariel.)
The argument that it would break the ingame economy? It wont. Why? Because there are countless ways to implement this without breaking the economy. Just one example: Require a trade-up of a player-built item in addition to Aur for the non-vanity item.
So now, we have non-vanity items that dont break the game economy, padding CCP's wallet, enabling them to continue growing and building eve and other games. We have eliminated the poor brats who's unintelligent opinions seem to be trashing CCP's good name for absolutely no reason, and we've kept the majority of the player base.
I support this product. +1
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.06.30 01:16:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Rayna Ravenoff
Originally by: Terminal Insanity First and foremost, it would probably cause a lot of crybabies to quit.
Now seriously, lets pretend they place a "NeX Siege Launcher" in the NeX store. I can still purchase this with Isk by buying a PLEX with isk, and converting it into Aur.
So, it allows me to use the non-vanity items, as well as give players who obviously suck at eve the chance to buy them with their own real money (Again, no different then buying GTC and then selling it for a Machariel.)
The argument that it would break the ingame economy? It wont. Why? Because there are countless ways to implement this without breaking the economy. Just one example: Require a trade-up of a player-built item in addition to Aur for the non-vanity item.
So now, we have non-vanity items that dont break the game economy, padding CCP's wallet, enabling them to continue growing and building eve and other games. We have eliminated the poor brats who's unintelligent opinions seem to be trashing CCP's good name for absolutely no reason, and we've kept the majority of the player base.
I support this product. +1
Now if you purchase a monocle your opinion will be totally valid. I support you buying a monocle
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Riddick Liddell
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Posted - 2011.06.30 01:17:00 -
[4]
No worries, they are going to do it anyway. |
Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 04:20:00 -
[5]
Originally by: riddick Liddell No worries, they are going to do it anyway.
TBH i don't think they will. CCP has bent over so many times for the players in the past. Its a shame really, that a group of idiots can ruin something that's utterly harmless.
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Jimmy Duce
Navy of Xoc
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Posted - 2011.06.30 04:25:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Originally by: riddick Liddell No worries, they are going to do it anyway.
TBH i don't think they will. CCP has bent over so many times for the players in the past. Its a shame really, that a group of idiots can ruin something that's utterly harmless.
Heh, harmless you say.
Right.
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Irie Irie Irie
Caldari Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.06.30 04:34:00 -
[7]
GTFO chav. ~~~
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.06.30 04:35:00 -
[8]
No
This would undermine the industrialists, and ultimately lead to the death of EVE.
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Xydonus Xavior
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Posted - 2011.06.30 04:39:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Irie Irie Irie GTFO chav.
Leave him be!
We need slave labor for our mines. |
ScreenWipe
Caldari State War Academy
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Posted - 2011.06.30 04:40:00 -
[10]
Originally by: El'Niaga No
This would undermine the industrialists, and ultimately lead to the death of EVE.
Will it ***k, it will attract new customers, especially ones with RL iskies to burn, i.e. russian oil tycoons, etc.. |
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He StillPlays Games
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Posted - 2011.06.30 04:44:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity stupid crap
get out.
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Rosa Cardenalis
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Posted - 2011.06.30 04:50:00 -
[12]
Can someone actually explain to me why this wouldn't work or would break the economy? It looks fine to me.
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 04:52:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis Can someone actually explain to me why this wouldn't work or would break the economy? It looks fine to me.
This person has articulated the protester's point of view quite clearly:
Originally by: He StillPlays Games
Originally by: Terminal Insanity stupid crap
get out.
Why cant you see it wont work!
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Cataca
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Posted - 2011.06.30 04:55:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity First and foremost, it would probably cause a lot of crybabies to quit.
Now seriously, lets pretend they place a "NeX Siege Launcher" in the NeX store. I can still purchase this with Isk by buying a PLEX with isk, and converting it into Aur.
Yes, suddenly the monetary worth is ALL gone because someone paid isk for it. Genious.
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
So, it allows me to use the non-vanity items, as well as give players who obviously suck at eve the chance to buy them with their own real money (Again, no different then buying GTC and then selling it for a Machariel.)
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
The argument that it would break the ingame economy? It wont. Why? Because there are countless ways to implement this without breaking the economy. Just one example: Require a trade-up of a player-built item in addition to Aur for the non-vanity item.
So instead of exerting pressure on the market as it normaly would, its a little bit better. Still there, injecting value in a market but not as badly as the previous form. Genious.
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
So now, we have non-vanity items that dont break the game economy, padding CCP's wallet, enabling them to continue growing and building eve and other games. We have eliminated the poor brats who's unintelligent opinions seem to be trashing CCP's good name for absolutely no reason, and we've kept the majority of the player base.
Instead they become a company that charges you money to make your game better. Not really eve in this sense but hey, WoD sounds promising as far as how CQ went. They can still sell you upgrades to the engine as something they did for EVE only. Game mechanics obviously wont be touched.
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2011.06.30 04:56:00 -
[15]
I've said it before in the past both ingame and on the forums Terminal, but you are a ****ing moron. You're a mindless sheep, no, pig, that is eating anything CCP puts in the trough. And when you're done, you ask for more of that ****.
Congrats. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
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Jimmy Duce
Navy of Xoc
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Posted - 2011.06.30 04:58:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis Can someone actually explain to me why this wouldn't work or would break the economy? It looks fine to me.
It's not breaking the economy, it is breaking the entire game. Many of us play Eve because it is skill and time and effort that leads to a successful or atleast entertaining outcome. Changing that by putting $ into game changing items breaks that desire to fight back, it makes fighting back without $ seemingly unfair and so people quit.
I refuse to play a game where I have to pay, and then pay again to compete and apparently so do many others.
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:02:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Blane Xero rabble rabble rabble rabble
I can see you but all i hear is blabbering. Who are you again? Never mind, it is of no importance.
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:05:00 -
[18]
Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/06/2011 05:06:12
Originally by: Jimmy Duce I refuse to play a game where I have to pay, and then pay again to compete and apparently so do many others.
But a rich newbie can already be one day old, buy a pilot with real money, buy a machariel with real money, and instantly skip over the 'time' needed to train such things.
NeX store items are available for isk as well, not just real money. So i ask, whats the difference?
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Irie Irie Irie
Caldari Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:06:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Originally by: Blane Xero rabble rabble rabble rabble
I can see you but all i hear is blabbering. Who are you again? Never mind, it is of no importance.
He is someone with integrity. YOU are an incompetent and obvious troll with no class that thinks throwing ISK at a dumb accessory makes you ironic and edgy. GTFO. ~~~
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:08:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/06/2011 05:09:09
Originally by: Irie Irie Irie ironic and edgy. GTFO.
The only thing ironic and edgy in this thread is your name and attitude.
If all you have to contribute is flames and no real intelligible point of view, then perhaps this is the only ground you have to stand on. Such is the life of lowly peasants.
Allow me to educate you on the meaning of your name:
Quote: Irie refers to positive emotions or feelings, or anything that is good. Specifically it refers to high emotions and peaceful vibrations. This is a phonetical representation of "all right".
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Blane Xero
Amarr The Firestorm Cartel
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:08:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity I can see you but all i hear is blabbering. Who are you again? Never mind, it is of no importance.
Yeah, who I am is of no importance. Who the **** are you again?
Oh yeah, the pleb who contributed towards a $70 MICROtransaction. _____________________________________ Haruhiist since December 2008
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Irie Irie Irie
Caldari Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:13:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/06/2011 05:09:09
Originally by: Irie Irie Irie ironic and edgy. GTFO.
The only thing ironic and edgy in this thread is your name and attitude.
If all you have to contribute is flames and no real intelligible point of view, then perhaps this is the only ground you have to stand on. Such is the life of lowly peasants.
Allow me to educate you on the meaning of your name:
Quote: Irie refers to positive emotions or feelings, or anything that is good. Specifically it refers to high emotions and peaceful vibrations. This is a phonetical representation of "all right".
I'm happy with myself, it's you that is the problem.
I'm pleased you have learned to look up things on the internet though. Perhaps this will go some way to make up for your misspent education. "chalk full" indeed. What a joke. ~~~
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:14:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/06/2011 05:15:34 It is clear the only thing the anti-NeX people have to stand on is their flames and rage. They clearly lack any position to attack the facts stated in my original post.
I accept your rage as proof my original post has completely debunked your protest and demand you return to your peasantry immediately, or we will cut back on your quafe rations.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr Divine Power.
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:16:00 -
[24]
3/10
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Xydonus Xavior
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:17:00 -
[25]
I don't see anything wrong with a vanity shop, even though the prices for the items are just mad, MAD I SAY MAD! I would never, and never have, bought vanity items and don't intend on doing it at any point as I could care less about what my character looks like when it comes to accessories.
I'll admit that I'm a bit selfish when it comes to EVE, I don't look at the big picture. I look at the smaller picture...
Is a non-vanity shop really going to effect my profits? Is it going to effect me in any way? If CCP start selling gold faction ammo, hows that going to effect me? Unless they make a balls of implementing it, I don't really see how it could. As long as it doesn't interfere with the internal mechanisms of the EVE economy, then no, I couldn't give a rats a..-tail.
If anything, players should be more focused on the other issues that have been so diligently laid out in other threads. I'm personally more concerned with the idea that disabling CQ is only temporary, and those that do disable it is forced to look at an ugly door, rather than the traditional hangar view. CCP has a new technology, they want to show it off, so naturally they don't want players turning their fancy new feature off, do they?
But in doing that, they've already alienated a large portion of the player base.
Course I would prefer the game not to have a micro-shop of any kind, but hey, if it generates more income for CCP, more power to them. Even though they should really have a look at those prices...
If they are interested in implementing a non-vanity item shop, they have to explore all the possibilities, seek the opinions of CSM instead of ignoring them like they've done, and explore it at all angles.
So I couldn't give an Irish fart about any off it, I just want my CQ optional and I'll sit in my pod until its done... :P |
Jimmy Duce
Navy of Xoc
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:19:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/06/2011 05:06:12
Originally by: Jimmy Duce I refuse to play a game where I have to pay, and then pay again to compete and apparently so do many others.
But a rich newbie can already be one day old, buy a pilot with real money, buy a machariel with real money, and instantly skip over the 'time' needed to train such things.
NeX store items are available for isk as well, not just real money. So i ask, whats the difference?
No, someone had to train that pilot, there isn't an infinite supply of high sp pilots, there isn't even an infinte supply of Machs.
$-> items removes all limits, removes any economical feedback, and just makes me not give a damn about the game.
Hell I already care less about Eve than I did simply a week ago. CCP's refusal to answer the damn question, and then needing a week to meet with the CSM before answering the damn question has moved me much closer to simply not liking this game any more. It's sad, even a horribly misformed Eve game would be better than most other games, but having seeing what EVe was, and what it could have been won't allow me to watch it slowly lose its soul.
Eve is the best game ever, and CCP is forgetting what made it good. It is good because it is all player created.
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:22:00 -
[27]
Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/06/2011 05:23:50
Originally by: Jimmy Duce No, someone had to train that pilot, there isn't an infinite supply of high sp pilots, there isn't even an infinte supply of Machs.
$-> items removes all limits, removes any economical feedback, and just makes me not give a damn about the game.
Hell I already care less about Eve than I did simply a week ago. CCP's refusal to answer the damn question, and then needing a week to meet with the CSM before answering the damn question has moved me much closer to simply not liking this game any more. It's sad, even a horribly misformed Eve game would be better than most other games, but having seeing what EVe was, and what it could have been won't allow me to watch it slowly lose its soul.
Eve is the best game ever, and CCP is forgetting what made it good. It is good because it is all player created.
You clearly did not read my original post.
If they required a player-built machariel to be paid in addition to Aur, for an upgraded 'NeX Machariel', there would be absolutly no effect on the ingame economy.
In fact, it could help slightly, since people will keep their obscenely expensive NeX Mach docked/missioning and never lose it. Requiring a second machariel for their pvp.
A pilot flying a NeX Mach would also be at increased gank risk, placing even more machariel orders at your doorstep.
As for not answering "the question"... i could, once again, go and dig up the multiple forum and devblog posts stating very clearly "is this vanity only? Yes" but you would just ignore that and continue raging.
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Cataca
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:23:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity the only thing ironic and edgy i this thread is your name and attitude.
If all you have to contribute is flames and no real intelligible point of view, then perhaps this is the only ground you have to stand on. Such is the life of lowly peasants.
Allow me to educate you on the meaning of your name:
How about backing up your own theories instead of speaking out of nowhere? I know im just demanding here, but hey, if you please im a steady follower.
Quote: Irie refers to positive emotions or feelings, or anything that is good. Specifically it refers to high emotions and peaceful vibrations. This is a phonetical representation of "all right".
Irie? The rainbow? Why dont you pick one person of greek mythologie that is as unimportant. Let me educate you on the fact that most people dont actually mean anything by naming their kin. A concept foreign to you most likely im sure.
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Irie Irie Irie
Caldari Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:23:00 -
[29]
no one is responding to it seriously because its a worthless **** troll and you are adding nothing that hasn't already been talked about in other threads. ~~~
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:26:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/06/2011 05:26:29
Originally by: Cataca
How about backing up your own theories instead of speaking out of nowhere? I know im just demanding here, but hey, if you please im a steady follower.
I have backed up my theories with examples in my original post, and a post not too far above this one.
It is the anti-nex people who have yet to present a reasonable argument against non-vanity items. All they've shown so far is their mindless rage.
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Cataca
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:30:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Cataca on 30/06/2011 05:37:35
Originally by: Terminal Insanity Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/06/2011 05:26:29
Originally by: Cataca
How about backing up your own theories instead of speaking out of nowhere? I know im just demanding here, but hey, if you please im a steady follower.
I have backed up my theories with examples in my original post, and a post not too far above this one.
It is the anti-nex people who have yet to present a reasonable argument against non-vanity items. All they've shown so far is their mindless rage.
My statement Take of it what you will. I doubt you would change your post no matter how smart the arguments are.
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Rosa Cardenalis
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:32:00 -
[32]
Originally by: Jimmy Duce
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis Can someone actually explain to me why this wouldn't work or would break the economy? It looks fine to me.
It's not breaking the economy, it is breaking the entire game. Many of us play Eve because it is skill and time and effort that leads to a successful or atleast entertaining outcome. Changing that by putting $ into game changing items breaks that desire to fight back, it makes fighting back without $ seemingly unfair and so people quit.
I refuse to play a game where I have to pay, and then pay again to compete and apparently so do many others.
I get that, but its already here and has been for some time in the form of GTC/PLEX for isk, character bazaar and multiple accounts.
All these things give a large advantage to people willing to pay more.
The counter argument to that has been that having items appear from nowhere for RL cash would break the economy. But if it also requires in game items wouldn't that help. I'm sure it would have an effect on the economy but I dont see how it would break it.
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Jimmy Duce
Navy of Xoc
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:42:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis
Originally by: Jimmy Duce
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis Can someone actually explain to me why this wouldn't work or would break the economy? It looks fine to me.
It's not breaking the economy, it is breaking the entire game. Many of us play Eve because it is skill and time and effort that leads to a successful or atleast entertaining outcome. Changing that by putting $ into game changing items breaks that desire to fight back, it makes fighting back without $ seemingly unfair and so people quit.
I refuse to play a game where I have to pay, and then pay again to compete and apparently so do many others.
I get that, but its already here and has been for some time in the form of GTC/PLEX for isk, character bazaar and multiple accounts.
All these things give a large advantage to people willing to pay more.
The counter argument to that has been that having items appear from nowhere for RL cash would break the economy. But if it also requires in game items wouldn't that help. I'm sure it would have an effect on the economy but I dont see how it would break it.
Yes it would help which is why I'm not arguing the economic point, my main point is I do not wish to play a game where you pay $ and are better.
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Xydonus Xavior
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:45:00 -
[34]
Originally by: Jimmy Duce Yes it would help which is why I'm not arguing the economic point, my main point is I do not wish to play a game where you pay $ and are better
That's done already though in the form of plex. Buy a plex, sell a plex, get your isk, gain your advantage. Already implemented. |
Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:49:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Jimmy Duce
Yes it would help which is why I'm not arguing the economic point, my main point is I do not wish to play a game where you pay $ and are better.
You already do. PLEX allows a brand new player to be instantly better then you, both in isk, skills and ships.
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Cataca
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:49:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Xydonus Xavior
Originally by: Jimmy Duce Yes it would help which is why I'm not arguing the economic point, my main point is I do not wish to play a game where you pay $ and are better
That's done already though in the form of plex. Buy a plex, sell a plex, get your isk, gain your advantage. Already implemented.
Fundamental differences between MT and RMT not included.
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Rosa Cardenalis
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:50:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Cataca
Originally by: Xydonus Xavior
Originally by: Jimmy Duce Yes it would help which is why I'm not arguing the economic point, my main point is I do not wish to play a game where you pay $ and are better
That's done already though in the form of plex. Buy a plex, sell a plex, get your isk, gain your advantage. Already implemented.
Fundamental differences between MT and RMT not included.
which are what?
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Aelyn A
Dewa Brotherhood Bang Bang You're Dead
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:54:00 -
[38]
When non vanity items come into play, people would want it to have the advantage in game fueling more and more desire to buy these items with AUR in a vicous cycle. More and more PLEX will be bought with isk to obtain more AUR. The number of 'Rich' people in this game is finite. Demand for PLEX will increase compared to its supply. PLEX prices go up and up. People who make in game isk to sub has to make more isk to sub and compete. Since the uber items are bought with AUR the demand for player made items drop making player made item prices drop. eg. NEX ammo requires T1 ammo, so T2 and faction ammo prices drop. Less money making for LP farmers and BPC researchers. The earnings per hour drops for most players who use isk to sub.
However, people also have a finite play time. At some point they'll have to sacifice their irl to spend more time in game until they simply cannot get the isk to compete. They'll either quit or die playing the game non-stop except for 1 hour DT of rest a day.
One possible solution is to make non vanity items only available at major hubs. Not in every station and also these items can drop just like any other items. So the people who aren't NEX customers can blow up the NEX customers ships for the items. The 'Rich' can afford to buy more ammos and the gankers can get NEX ammo for cheap. Seems fair
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Rosa Cardenalis
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Posted - 2011.06.30 05:58:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Aelyn A NEX ammo requires T1 ammo, so T2 and faction ammo prices drop. Less money making for LP farmers and BPC researchers.
What if nex ammo requires T2 or Faction?
I gues what you are saying in your post could happen, but a hell of a lot would depend on what was implemented and how much of an advantage it would really give you, and would also probably change over time.
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 06:02:00 -
[40]
Originally by: Aelyn A NEX ammo requires T1 ammo, so T2 and faction ammo prices drop. Less money making for LP farmers and BPC researchers.
Where did CCP release this? Or is this again, just another case of mindless speculation and fear-mongering?
Fact is, you have no idea how they'll implement it,,, or even if they WILL implement it. But dont let that stop you from typing up fantastical stories about CCP plans to murder eve etc, carry on peasant
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Aelyn A
Dewa Brotherhood Bang Bang You're Dead
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Posted - 2011.06.30 06:10:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity . Just one example: Require a trade-up of a player-built item in addition to Aur for the non-vanity item.
Eg. means example. Where that came from? It came from you
Its just a scenario, means just what could happen, not will happen. I don't care much about MT as i can afford MT atm but i would like to blow up as many NEX customers ship for NEX loot if possible. I hope CCP would make suicide ganking really worthwhile.
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Asudem
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Posted - 2011.06.30 06:17:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Jimmy Duce
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis Can someone actually explain to me why this wouldn't work or would break the economy? It looks fine to me.
It's not breaking the economy, it is breaking the entire game. Many of us play Eve because it is skill and time and effort that leads to a successful or atleast entertaining outcome. Changing that by putting $ into game changing items breaks that desire to fight back, it makes fighting back without $ seemingly unfair and so people quit.
I refuse to play a game where I have to pay, and then pay again to compete and apparently so do many others.
With GTC $ are already into this game and many people dont pay because there skill allows them to buy that GTC ingame for ISK. So as the PLEX, some else buys it and sells it for ISK, just like the PLEX.
The price of non-vanity items matters. If the price is high enough, you can see those items like new Officer modules which costs some billions of ISK - most people will not get enough money to buy them. It wouldnt effect the economy in any way since it is much too expensive for PvP-Fittings so producing items like T2 weapons or drones will still be lucrative. Maybe it wont be touched by this at all. So I see any gaemplay mechanism thats been affected in the negative way and I dont mind a NeX-Store with non-vanity items in this case. Skill ect. is still the most important thing, otherwise you will loose those stuff in no-time.
On the other hand, if the $ price is too low, it definitivly damages the game. So I hope CCP is not dumb enough to lower the prices just to attract people to waste their $ / Ç / whatever. And if that would be the case, I really could understand the riot against CCP.
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 06:18:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Aelyn A
Originally by: Terminal Insanity . Just one example: Require a trade-up of a player-built item in addition to Aur for the non-vanity item.
Eg. means example. Where that came from? It came from you
Its just a scenario, means just what could happen, not will happen. I don't care much about MT as i can afford MT atm but i would like to blow up as many NEX customers ship for NEX loot if possible. I hope CCP would make suicide ganking really worthwhile.
Correct. Its an idea. An idea that actually is supported by CCP in their devblogs, when they admitted they wanted to sell a small number of painted Scorpions "out of thin air" and then immediatly admitted they did not like this, and wanted to tie it into the current economy so that manufacturers dont get cut out.
You are willing to argue that my point is invalid because its an "example" well, why is your argument that ships will spawn out of nowhere? That is equally a theoretical example. The difference between mine and yours is CCP has already stated their views on this subject and it reflects my example.
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Rosa Cardenalis
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Posted - 2011.06.30 06:25:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Asudem
Originally by: Jimmy Duce
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis Can someone actually explain to me why this wouldn't work or would break the economy? It looks fine to me.
On the other hand, if the $ price is too low, it definitivly damages the game. So I hope CCP is not dumb enough to lower the prices just to attract people to waste their $ / Ç / whatever. And if that would be the case, I really could understand the riot against CCP.
Given the cost of a monicle I think it is very unlikely that the price for anything that gives in game advantage would be low, but of course it is not impossible.
However, if there is loads of this stuff about because it is cheap and gives a decent boost, won't there be loads on the market for a small amount of isk? I guess that is not certain either but it seems likely to me.
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Cataca
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Posted - 2011.06.30 06:29:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis
which are what?
Plex in itself are market neutral, all you really do is giving someone rl money (in the sense of subs for the legal RMT) to farm a certain ammount of isk. It is still restricted by the market, and controlled by it. If you try to outfit an alliance, the market has to supply it in the first place, not to speak of the isk value detoriation because you dumped a bunch of them.
Everyone in the market is involved here. The idustrialists, the t2 researchers, lp farmers, logistics, complex farmers, belt ratters.. and many sidejobs i heavnt even thought of. All people that get their enjoyment of this game from the many facets it has.
Compared to where you just spawn something.
Or if you are into that thing, lets start a thought experiment. Imagine CCP implements the MT store in a way that will let you outfit a fleet, completely of partly. In 0.0 warfare some alliance will fight against someone, and lose (by what margin is unimportant). They have stored a large number of plex in a nearby npc 0.0 system, or some lowsec system. They will be able to resupply instantly and resume the attack.
Normaly, they would have to haul their crap there, get it manufactured and all that. In this case they will just be attacked again by another alliance that can afford to resupply again. It will initiate a spiral even worse than the cluster**** that is 0.0 warfare now.
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Surfin's PlunderBunny
Minmatar The Python Cartel. The Defenders of Pen Island
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Posted - 2011.06.30 06:29:00 -
[46]
well I say, I hope I can pimp out my Domi
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Rosa Cardenalis
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:07:00 -
[47]
Originally by: Cataca
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis
which are what?
Plex in itself are market neutral...
Ok I see the difference, but all of that is circumvented by making the process also require an in game item as already discussed.
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Nicolo da'Vicenza
Amarr Divine Power.
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:11:00 -
[48]
Edited by: Nicolo da''Vicenza on 30/06/2011 07:11:13
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis
Originally by: Cataca
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis
which are what?
Plex in itself are market neutral...
Ok I see the difference, but all of that is circumvented by making the process also require an in game item as already discussed.
I agree. Aurum items should require their Estamel equivalents that already outperform their MT-counterparts in every way.
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Na'av
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:13:00 -
[49]
Originally by: "Terminal Insanity" First and foremost, it would probably cause a lot of crybabies to quit.
If all the crybabies quit, who will fuel my ships?
Kindergarden economics gentlemen: I made something for free that no one else has, I'm going to charge a lot for it and make pure profit.
The problem with the price is rather serious. 59.85 USD for a monocle using battleclinic GTCs at 52 in 2 days is 3112.2 USD. CCP would have done better selling it for a dollar and having 10% of eve players buy into it in 2 days. Because it's a virtual item, you can make it perishable. In which case people will buy it several times in a few months or for several jump clones. This would have been a better idea.
Your idea, on the other hand,
Originally by: "Terminal Insanity" Just one example: Require a trade-up of a player-built item in addition to Aur for the non-vanity item.
makes the LP system redundant as well as the regular economy. You're just grinding LP with CCP by giving them money/plex and they call their LP Aur.
The NEX system is redundant. You said it yourself.
Originally by: "Terminal Insanity" (Again, no different then buying GTC and then selling it for a Machariel.)
It already existed in the game, and was used regularly. However there's a limited supply of Machariel and other faction and shiny stuff on the market that a person can buy. Aur removes the idea of supply because everything in the NEX store is unlimited. So, everyone who makes their money off grinding up the LP, grabbing a mach bpc and running a build to sell on market loses out to the NEX store who always has a supply of their mach.
If you want my real opinion. CCP Flooded the market with isk because of incursions and is looking for a heavy money sink to try and speed things back to normal - without removing or tweaking the incursion system. And their marketing team ran with idea.
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:19:00 -
[50]
Absolutely not, undermines industry.
Destroy that core and you destroy the game (just like if you removed non consensual pvp from the game would kill it.).
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Cataca
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:25:00 -
[51]
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis
Originally by: Cataca
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis
which are what?
Plex in itself are market neutral...
Ok I see the difference, but all of that is circumvented by making the process also require an in game item as already discussed.
Cute. How?
Sure its minimal as it is now, but the MT store allready pumps value in the market. If you think of the entire market, you have plex in there that in its current form means that money changes hands. No aditional value added or reduced.
If you however buy a plex AND buy a MT asset and throw it on the market, you suddenly add something of a certain monetary worth to it. In itself this couldnt possibly have negative reprecussions on the market. (or it might have, economy is as far from my study as can be). But after time it will introduce more and more value in the market for "nothing" (because in the eve market, your real world assets arnt counted) this will lead to devaluation of ISK however you spin it. It doesnt actually matter what you put in the market really.
Blueprints will certainly slow it down, but will never stop it entirely as long as things are sellable on the market.
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Kiran
Minmatar Knights of Azrael
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:27:00 -
[52]
The selling of non-vanity items in the NeX will break the in game market for the traders and industrialist not only that but will also change the way sov warefare is played out.
Basically if you got the RL money to burn your going to win. So therefore setting up a lower class and middle class of players. Those that can afford to buy that special Jove ship off the NeX store and those that can't.
Eventually though that special jove ship will get blown up and you will have to buy another off the NeX store at another ú150 to ú300 estimated cost as a monocle is ú60. And the normal people of the world do not have that kind of money to throw around. So again it boils down to the rich kids being able to gain and hold sov because they can afford the "gold ammo".
CCP wants only the rich people to play Eve from what I have read on their emails and leaked newsletters and the avergae Eve player does not fit that bill, so we are being priced out of a game we all love and enjoy. And its the people like the OP and others who buy these stupid vanity items thats reinforcing CCP's commitment to moving the NeX store forwards.
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Ciar Meara
Amarr Virtus Vindice
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:29:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
The argument that it would break the ingame economy? It wont. Why? Because there are countless ways to implement this without breaking the economy. Just one example: Require a trade-up of a player-built item in addition to Aur for the non-vanity item.
"at the moment the aur shop cannot accept any currency or trade in other then aur"
"this will we looked at in the future" =(soonTM)
If you want to talk to talk, you'd better read what CCP themselves say. - Hilmar getur ekki tala= vi= ¦ig n·na, hann er a= fara ß japanska Tfskuverslun.
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Florestan Bronstein
draketrain
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:31:00 -
[54]
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 30/06/2011 07:34:51
Originally by: El'Niaga No
This would undermine the industrialists, and ultimately lead to the death of EVE.
obvious solution: just sell the BPCs in the NeX.
Originally by: Ciar Meara "at the moment the aur shop cannot accept any currency or trade in other then aur"
"this will we looked at in the future" =(soonTM)
If you want to talk to talk, you'd better read what CCP themselves say.
CCP have already invested in the Ishokune Watch Scorpion. That investment will only pay off once they have implemented the trade-in facility.
This thread is talking about strategic direction - if we have to wait 2-3 months for our AUR weapons that's no big deal.
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Tla Atij
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:34:00 -
[55]
There's a reverse to the NeX machariel too. If a monocle is $70, a machariel would probably a (tiny bit) more. So assume you pimp out your new shiny NeX ship with all kinds of NeX modules, spending $300 on all of it. You plan to only run missions in 1.0.
What happens when people spot your juicy ship and 15 brutixes blow you out of the sky in 1.0? I'll tell you what. You'll quit. Sure, you made CCP $300 richer, but unless they make ships indestructible (or make them respawn when they are destroyed) people will quit in droves after being ganked like that.
I don't think CCP wants that. And I don't think they'll give out indestructible or respawning ships either.
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Florestan Bronstein
draketrain
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:37:00 -
[56]
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 30/06/2011 07:45:58
Originally by: Tla Atij There's a reverse to the NeX machariel too. If a monocle is $70, a machariel would probably a (tiny bit) more. So assume you pimp out your new shiny NeX ship with all kinds of NeX modules, spending $300 on all of it. You plan to only run missions in 1.0.
What happens when people spot your juicy ship and 15 brutixes blow you out of the sky in 1.0? I'll tell you what. You'll quit. Sure, you made CCP $300 richer, but unless they make ships indestructible (or make them respawn when they are destroyed) people will quit in droves after being ganked like that.
I don't think CCP wants that. And I don't think they'll give out indestructible or respawning ships either.
At that point you have already earned CCP much more money than the average subscriber (not sure about the source for these claims but "6-8 months" is the number floating around as the average time a player sticks with eve - that would translate to only ~100$).
Once these 300$ place you at the lower end of the "revenue per subscriber" scale CCP can spend resources looking into how to prevent you from quitting. Until then they're just fine with your decision.
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El'Niaga
Minmatar Republic Military School
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:41:00 -
[57]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 30/06/2011 07:34:51
Originally by: El'Niaga No
This would undermine the industrialists, and ultimately lead to the death of EVE.
obvious solution: just sell the BPCs in the NeX.
Originally by: Ciar Meara "at the moment the aur shop cannot accept any currency or trade in other then aur"
"this will we looked at in the future" =(soonTM)
If you want to talk to talk, you'd better read what CCP themselves say.
CCP have already invested in the Ishokune Watch Scorpion. That investment will only pay off once they have implemented the trade-in facility.
This thread is talking about strategic direction - if we have to wait 2-3 months for our AUR weapons that's no big deal.
While BPCs is preferred over actual items, I can't help but think it'll hurt inventors.
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Cataca
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:42:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Tla Atij There's a reverse to the NeX machariel too. If a monocle is $70, a machariel would probably a (tiny bit) more. So assume you pimp out your new shiny NeX ship with all kinds of NeX modules, spending $300 on all of it. You plan to only run missions in 1.0.
What happens when people spot your juicy ship and 15 brutixes blow you out of the sky in 1.0? I'll tell you what. You'll quit. Sure, you made CCP $300 richer, but unless they make ships indestructible (or make them respawn when they are destroyed) people will quit in droves after being ganked like that.
I don't think CCP wants that. And I don't think they'll give out indestructible or respawning ships either.
Sure, stupid people are everywhere, but with the old system at least the market had a role to play.
I really dont understand why people have such difficulties accepting that the guys building your ships are an important piece of the economy.
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Tla Atij
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:43:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
At that point you have already earned CCP much more money than the average subscriber (not sure about the source for these claims but "6-8 months" is the number floating around as average subscription length - that would translate to only ~100$).
Once these 300$ place you at the lower end of the "revenue per subscriber" scale CCP can spend resources looking into how to prevent you from quitting. Until then they're just fine with your decision.
Fair enough. Knowing the mentality of eve players, there will probably be intel channels for NeX ships spotters. Probably whole corporations whose mission is to harvest as many tears and as many NeX killmails possible. Griefing will get a whole new dimension.
I'm getting happy in the pants only thinking about it.
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Tla Atij
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:48:00 -
[60]
Originally by: Cataca I really dont understand why people have such difficulties accepting that the guys building your ships are an important piece of the economy.
It's not that big a deal anyway. NPC goods already circumvent player industry. They have no BPOs, they're unlimited in amount and are seeded on the market by CCP. Just as NeX BPCs would be.
And if the AUR cost of the BPC is set reasonably higher than its regular counterpart, they won't compete due to price range. In fact, industrialists will be even in more demand than before, because there will be more ships to build.
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Sig Sour
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:50:00 -
[61]
Monocles give you confidence!
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Cataca
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:58:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Tla Atij
Originally by: Cataca I really dont understand why people have such difficulties accepting that the guys building your ships are an important piece of the economy.
It's not that big a deal anyway. NPC goods already circumvent player industry. They have no BPOs, they're unlimited in amount and are seeded on the market by CCP. Just as NeX BPCs would be.
And if the AUR cost of the BPC is set reasonably higher than its regular counterpart, they won't compete due to price range. In fact, industrialists will be even in more demand than before, because there will be more ships to build.
What NPC goods exactly? Every single item, except BPOs and Skillbooks (and some mission items) are player produced. The market is entirely player controlled. They even removed the material floors (as in virtual worth for materials by refining something) a year or so back. The only thing remotely controlling the market still are insurance payments.
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 07:59:00 -
[63]
Originally by: Aelyn A Eg. means example. Where that came from? It came from you
Its just a scenario, means just what could happen, not will happen. I don't care much about MT as i can afford MT atm but i would like to blow up as many NEX customers ship for NEX loot if possible. I hope CCP would make suicide ganking really worthwhile.
Originally by: CCP Zinfandel I got a break between meetings. I have 11 minutes to post again in this thread. I apologize I haven't been able to read all the posts.
I had a chance to talk to the CSM and get a clarification. I was not remembering it some parts correctly. At that time, we talked about only making the ship available for one week as a test (sold directly for Aurum) and then saving it until we had the correct trade-in or BPC functionality in the store. Then selling it normally.
The CSM didn't like the idea of selling a whole ship, but they could live with a one week test.
What I will do is take the ship off the schedule and just put it on hold for now. We are still going to make it available, but I will wait until August and see how things are going. By then I will know more about how long it will take to get either BPC or trade-in functionality into the store. At that point we can revisit the schedule for introducing the ship.
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Florestan Bronstein
draketrain
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Posted - 2011.06.30 08:02:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Florestan Bronstein on 30/06/2011 08:07:02
Originally by: El'Niaga
While BPCs is preferred over actual items, I can't help but think it'll hurt inventors.
It would hurt inventors the same way the LP store and faction drops hurt inventors - it would provide a (superior) substitute for T2 modules/ammo.
If I had to introduce P2W items in the NeX I would do it the following way:
NeX sells 1-5 run BPCs, each BPC has the same material requirements as the meta 0 version of the module (maybe with higher required manufacturing skills) plus one rare token that only drops from faction or officer spawns (or complexes or any other source that is hard to farm).
That way there is more in-game effort tied into the creation of a NeX item (which imo is important for the players' perception of them) and you get an additional mechanism to control the rarity/use of P2W items (i.e. adjusting the drop rate of these tokens).
(also for almost all intents & purposes the LP store is an example for what the NeX could look like - same problems with impact on the part of the economy that is driven by player manufacturing only difference is that you cannot get AUR by running missions).
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.30 08:03:00 -
[65]
Having seen this argument so many times, I give a canned answer. Rebuttals and questions are free, stupidly, arrogance, insults and general ass-hatery will be taxed heavily and with little remorse.
Additional informative thread, http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1542767
First recognize that there is a difference between a "Vanity" and "Non-Vanity". "Vanity" is something that is not functional, a paint job is not functional. Ammunition, that can be gotten in no other way except via a micro-transaction, is not a vanity item. A shuttle that has 100M3 of cargo, and required a normal shuttle and some Aurum to produce, is not a vanity item. A shuttle that is exactly the same as regular shuttle, but has a spiffy paint job, or even a different model, is a vanity item. A pair of boots, that gives your character no advantages in the game of any kind is a vanity item. Non-Vanity items are gathered into a common term, especially on this forum in the past weeks, as "golden ammo". This is also commonly called "Pay to Win", P2W.
Non-Vanity items require less input from the sandbox and add more into it than was 'traded in'. For example, a ship magically created, that has no other inputs other than Aurum, removes all the potential game play that the production of that ship would have required from the sandbox.
This removal of game play, of value, is taken from the noob miner to the 0.0 miner, to the can flipper to the hot dropper and his 23 SuperCap friends out on a Sunday afternoon drive. Each non-vanity created item takes a tiny bit from everyone, as more and more non-vanity items are created, those tiny bits add up until the sandbox has no meaning.
Items that are mechanical in nature, such as a ship, should require a normal ship as part of the trade. If all that comes out of the trade is the same exact kind of ship, but has a shiny paint job, then this does not impact the sandbox.
Purely cosmetic vanity items, although they could have an impact on certain aspects of the sandbox, such as the price of PLEX going up because everyone wants shiny paint jobs, have a far less value at a mechanical level, and thus, have far less mechanical impact on the sandbox.
Although some argue PLEX is a micro-transaction, this is demonstrably false. The ISK for which that PLEX is sold, was collected by someone in the game doing whatever it is they do. They put forth an effort and got a reward of ISK. They then trade that ISK for a PLEX. The guy who sold the PLEX now has the ISK, and the other guy has the PLEX. Nothing was added or removed from the sandbox, except the need for one or both of them to break the EULA. CCP profits and the players profit from PLEX.
The only ones who profit from non-vanity micro-transactions are CCP, and they do so not only at the expense of the $Cash spender, but from everyone in the game that now no longer has the opportunity to participate in the creation of the items.
My faith in CCP will return SoonÖ We'll watch what you do not what you say.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.30 08:10:00 -
[66]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Originally by: El'Niaga
While BPCs is preferred over actual items, I can't help but think it'll hurt inventors.
It would hurt inventors the same way the LP store and faction drops hurt inventors - it would provide a (superior) substitute for T2 modules/ammo.
If a BPC is the trade in, then a BPC can be the trade out, so long is what is going to be created is the same exact thing frunctionaly, but may just look different. "ThingA + Aurum = Bling ThingA" is good, "ThingA + Aurum = Better ThingA" is bad.
My faith in CCP will return SoonÖ We'll watch what you do not what you say.
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Sebas Atreides
Caldari The Phoenix Enclave
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Posted - 2011.06.30 08:12:00 -
[67]
How can anyone not be looking forward to the forum rage of people losing three figure sums when other people like Plunderbunny turn the game into Pirates Vs Pi±atas Online?
I sure as hell can't wait.
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Cataca
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Posted - 2011.06.30 08:13:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy Having seen this argument so many times, I give a canned answer. Rebuttals and questions are free, stupidly, arrogance, insults and general ass-hatery will be taxed heavily and with little remorse.
Additional informative thread, http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1542767
First recognize that there is a difference between a "Vanity" and "Non-Vanity". "Vanity" is something that is not functional, a paint job is not functional. Ammunition, that can be gotten in no other way except via a micro-transaction, is not a vanity item. A shuttle that has 100M3 of cargo, and required a normal shuttle and some Aurum to produce, is not a vanity item. A shuttle that is exactly the same as regular shuttle, but has a spiffy paint job, or even a different model, is a vanity item. A pair of boots, that gives your character no advantages in the game of any kind is a vanity item. Non-Vanity items are gathered into a common term, especially on this forum in the past weeks, as "golden ammo". This is also commonly called "Pay to Win", P2W.
Non-Vanity items require less input from the sandbox and add more into it than was 'traded in'. For example, a ship magically created, that has no other inputs other than Aurum, removes all the potential game play that the production of that ship would have required from the sandbox.
This removal of game play, of value, is taken from the noob miner to the 0.0 miner, to the can flipper to the hot dropper and his 23 SuperCap friends out on a Sunday afternoon drive. Each non-vanity created item takes a tiny bit from everyone, as more and more non-vanity items are created, those tiny bits add up until the sandbox has no meaning.
Items that are mechanical in nature, such as a ship, should require a normal ship as part of the trade. If all that comes out of the trade is the same exact kind of ship, but has a shiny paint job, then this does not impact the sandbox.
Purely cosmetic vanity items, although they could have an impact on certain aspects of the sandbox, such as the price of PLEX going up because everyone wants shiny paint jobs, have a far less value at a mechanical level, and thus, have far less mechanical impact on the sandbox.
Although some argue PLEX is a micro-transaction, this is demonstrably false. The ISK for which that PLEX is sold, was collected by someone in the game doing whatever it is they do. They put forth an effort and got a reward of ISK. They then trade that ISK for a PLEX. The guy who sold the PLEX now has the ISK, and the other guy has the PLEX. Nothing was added or removed from the sandbox, except the need for one or both of them to break the EULA. CCP profits and the players profit from PLEX.
The only ones who profit from non-vanity micro-transactions are CCP, and they do so not only at the expense of the $Cash spender, but from everyone in the game that now no longer has the opportunity to participate in the creation of the items.
Would you mind me quoting that in future discussions? It would save me time, thats for sure.
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Lee Evans
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Posted - 2011.06.30 08:14:00 -
[69]
I think CCP will implement a store that spawns stuff from nowhere because I'm an idiot.
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Tla Atij
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Posted - 2011.06.30 08:15:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Sebas Atreides How can anyone not be looking forward to the forum rage of people losing three figure sums when other people like Plunderbunny turn the game into Pirates Vs Pi±atas Online?
I sure as hell can't wait.
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Florestan Bronstein
draketrain
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Posted - 2011.06.30 08:34:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy vanity vs non-vanity
the non-vanity = Pay2Win argument does not really hold well.
I like the distinction between vanity, convenience and power a lot better than your approach.
Of course in a game like EVE convenience will often translate into power (making the most out of a limited time budget) but that's not always true.
The ability to store more than 50 fittings is definitely a (non-vanity) convenience service but it is in no way a tangible advantage that would allow you to "win" at EVE.
One thing I have noticed during the debate so far is that the players talk a lot about "no non-vanity" while CCP talks about "no Pay2Win".
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Lara Dantreb
New Horizons
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Posted - 2011.06.30 08:37:00 -
[72]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity So now, we have non-vanity items that dont break the game economy, padding CCP's wallet, enabling them to continue growing and building eve and other games. We have eliminated the poor brats who's unintelligent opinions seem to be trashing CCP's good name for absolutely no reason, and we've kept the majority of the player base.
+1 well said
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Na'av
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Posted - 2011.06.30 08:38:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Lee Evans I think CCP will implement a store that spawns stuff from nowhere because I'm an idiot.
You sir, win the interwebs.
This thread isn't for actual discussion, it's for trololols.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.30 08:42:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Cataca Would you mind me quoting that in future discussions? It would save me time, thats for sure.
Yes you may, you can take all the credit too if you wish, my concern is the sandbox, nothing more or less.
My faith in CCP will return SoonÖ We'll watch what you do not what you say.
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Ayame Yubari
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Posted - 2011.06.30 08:45:00 -
[75]
The OP IRL:
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Cataca
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Posted - 2011.06.30 08:46:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Cataca Would you mind me quoting that in future discussions? It would save me time, thats for sure.
Yes you may, you can take all the credit too if you wish, my concern is the sandbox, nothing more or less.
I understand your concern in this matter, and its really the only reason to post in those threads time after time again.
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Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:00:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
First and foremost, it would probably cause a lot of crybabies to quit.
Well we could say that OP is cry baby as he wants to change the whole ETHIC of eve and its game mechanic and play.
Also is it not telling that having to add use of a swap item plus cash in NeX means it is its a damage control sop to the player base, if they were not going to magic it up it would have been in there from the very start as its a basic....
OP fails
A Sand Box or Litter Tray. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:08:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
Originally by: Adunh Slavy vanity vs non-vanity
the non-vanity = Pay2Win argument does not really hold well.
I like the distinction between vanity, convenience and power a lot better than your approach.
Of course in a game like EVE convenience will often translate into power (making the most out of a limited time budget) but that's not always true.
The ability to store more than 50 fittings is definitely a (non-vanity) convenience service but it is in no way a tangible advantage that would allow you to "win" at EVE.
One thing I have noticed during the debate so far is that the players talk a lot about "no non-vanity" while CCP talks about "no Pay2Win".
I agree with you that "non-vanity" and "convenience" seem different, on the surface they are, but under the hood they are very much alike. Each saves a player time, makes life easier, requires less overall effort.
This is a bit esoteric, but bear with me. ISK requires someone go out and get it, it requires time and effort to collect. Also, ISK bears no debt upon its creation unlike the paper money we use in the real world. ISK is a commodity money - it is a representation of time and effort, also known as "labor", and importantly, though not for this particular discussion's context, labor done in the past. Money is an abstraction of labor, and ISK is no different in this regard.
What MT "convenience" or MT "non-vanity" are in effect doing inside the sandbox is, allowing someone to pay with real cash, the ability to save time and effort. MTs are letting them NOT spend time and effort in the sandbox, They're creating a short cut. The net effect of this is that MTs of a non-vanity nature, and convenience, create an "inflation of time." and "inflation of effort".
Since ISK is a representation of time and effort, what these shortcuts, these inflations do, is devalue all the ISK in the game by however much time and/or effort the shortcut enabled. It's the same as if we have a glass box full of gold, and we have 10 pieces of paper, and we decide that those 10 pieces are worth all the gold. What if we then add in another piece of paper. All the paper is now worth a bit less.
This is the same net effect MTs, that save any time, or save any labor, convince, non-vanity, stats boosts, SP boosts, extra fittings, market tickers, etc etc, do to the entire sandbox. It's best if all these things can be paid for in ISK because the time and effort being taken out of the economy via the ISK sink, will be generally equal to the amount of time and effort those things save you.
When we do an aurum purchase direct from CCP, not only do they take your money, but they also slice off a tiny bit of value from each and every single ISK in the sandbox. When a currency in an economy depreciates far enough, the economy begins to break down. How this ripples out through an economy is never something that can be predicted, but it will ripple, and something will break sooner or later.
Hope you followed all that, if not, welcome to the club, I sometimes confuse my self.
My faith in CCP will return SoonÖ We'll watch what you do not what you say.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:11:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Florestan Bronstein
One thing I have noticed during the debate so far is that the players talk a lot about "no non-vanity" while CCP talks about "no Pay2Win".
Yeah ... It is my hope they do not try to slip their way out of some inconvinient meanings and instead are just flat out blunt.
My faith in CCP will return SoonÖ We'll watch what you do not what you say.
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Rosa Cardenalis
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:16:00 -
[80]
quote]
I really dont understand why people have such difficulties accepting that the guys building your ships are an important piece of the economy.
I do accept this I also think CCP are well aware of it. My points are really that how MT is implemented is extremely important, it is not simply a case of MT = end of eve IMHO.
If you need a Macharial + Cash in order to make a NexMacharial how are you destroying the market?
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Can of Beans
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:17:00 -
[81]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/06/2011 07:27:18 First and foremost, it would probably cause a lot of crybabies to quit.
Now seriously, lets pretend they place a "NeX Siege Launcher" in the NeX store. I can still purchase this with Isk by buying a PLEX with isk, and converting it into Aur.
So, it allows me to use the non-vanity items, as well as give players who obviously suck at eve the chance to buy them with their own real money (Again, no different then buying GTC and then selling it for a Machariel.)
The argument that it would break the ingame economy? It wont. Why? Because there are countless ways to implement this without breaking the economy. Just one example: Require a trade-up of a player-built item in addition to Aur for the non-vanity item.
So now, we have non-vanity items that dont break the game economy, padding CCP's wallet, enabling them to continue growing and building eve and other games. We have eliminated the poor brats who's unintelligent opinions seem to be trashing CCP's good name for absolutely no reason, and we've kept the majority of the player base.
Edit part: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1527783&page=13#364 Just because some people were claiming my 'trade up' example was imaginary/thought up 'by me' etc... there was also a devblog about it, but i tire of digging up quotes repeatedly for people who wont read them anyway.
I fully support this, but next time can you post with your CCP main. kthnx
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:18:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy Non-Vanity items require less input from the sandbox and add more into it than was 'traded in'. For example, a ship magically created, that has no other inputs other than Aurum, removes all the potential game play that the production of that ship would have required from the sandbox.
Well, good thing ccp has stated that they will indeed require a trade-up or blueprint type system that will keep the manufacturers in the loop, and not create ships 'magically'. So much for your point there.
Originally by: Adunh Slavy The only ones who profit from non-vanity micro-transactions are CCP, and they do so not only at the expense of the $Cash spender, but from everyone in the game that now no longer has the opportunity to participate in the creation of the items.
Well, that would be the whole point of running a business, wouldnt it? To make money? I dont see what the problem is. If people are willing to pay 70 dollars for a monocle, let them. If someone is willing to pay 200 dollars to upgrade the stats of a machariel, as long as that machariel was initially spawned as part of normal/regular gameplay, let them!
a 200$ machariel would infact increase manufacturers profits, since a 200$ machariel will not be throw around lightly, and that player will most likely buy a second mach just so he can use it in more risky situations. It also increases the target value of his ship, increasing his risk, increasing killmails, increasing sold machariels.
So all i see is good for ccp, good for players. And a whole lot of whining from idiots
Money > Plex > Machariel / 100m sp char Money > Aur > NeX Machariel Isk > Plex > Aur > NeX Machariel
there is no advantage given to people who are rich irl... at least no more then already given by PLEX.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:19:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis quote]
I really dont understand why people have such difficulties accepting that the guys building your ships are an important piece of the economy.
I do accept this I also think CCP are well aware of it. My points are really that how MT is implemented is extremely important, it is not simply a case of MT = end of eve IMHO.
If you need a Macharial + Cash in order to make a NexMacharial how are you destroying the market?
If NexMach is better that RegularMach, then an arms race, paid for with real cash has been created. This is a pay to win scenario.
My faith in CCP will return SoonÖ We'll watch what you do not what you say.
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Medidranda Livoga
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:24:00 -
[84]
Can`t this stupid mudflation already end? Next thing you have is CCP introduces mark 2 Nex launcher, then 3, then 4 and you just keep buying.
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Hapaks
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:26:00 -
[85]
stop feed those confusing monocle trolls and join a more serious thread guys
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:26:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy If NexMach is better that RegularMach, then an arms race, paid for with real cash has been created. This is a pay to win scenario.
You're 100% right... if it wasnt for the fact you can buy NeXMach with Isk also. So it would be an arms race... paid for with real cash OR ingame currency.
And how exactly would buying a NeXmach with money be any different then buying a regular mach with money via plex? Both are available via cash or isk. Both require regular manufacturers to build the initial ship thats being upgraded.
how is this so difficult for people to understand? lol.
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Rosa Cardenalis
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:27:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis quote]
I really dont understand why people have such difficulties accepting that the guys building your ships are an important piece of the economy.
I do accept this I also think CCP are well aware of it. My points are really that how MT is implemented is extremely important, it is not simply a case of MT = end of eve IMHO.
If you need a Macharial + Cash in order to make a NexMacharial how are you destroying the market?
If NexMach is better that RegularMach, then an arms race, paid for with real cash has been created. This is a pay to win scenario.
But you can also buy it with ISK.
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Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:27:00 -
[88]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis quote]
I really dont understand why people have such difficulties accepting that the guys building your ships are an important piece of the economy.
I do accept this I also think CCP are well aware of it. My points are really that how MT is implemented is extremely important, it is not simply a case of MT = end of eve IMHO.
If you need a Macharial + Cash in order to make a NexMacharial how are you destroying the market?
If NexMach is better that RegularMach, then an arms race, paid for with real cash has been created. This is a pay to win scenario.
Everyone forgets that it makes real life circumstances then get reflected in the game, its no longer an equal game, it does break game by making it real life dependent.
fake edit: yes i know play is real life dependent, you gotta have pooter, internet and 15$, but that is all, whether you work as a corporate lawyer or road mender you are equal in game all under the same rules and mechanics.
A Sand Box or Litter Tray. |
Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:30:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Adunh Slavy on 30/06/2011 09:35:38
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Well, good thing ccp has stated that they will indeed require a trade-up or blueprint type system that will keep the manufacturers in the loop, and not create ships 'magically'. So much for your point there.
We'll wait and see what comes out of the CSM summit. So much for your point there.
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Well, that would be the whole point of running a business, wouldnt it? To make money? I dont see what the problem is. If people are willing to pay 70 dollars for a monocle, let them. If someone is willing to pay 200 dollars to upgrade the stats of a machariel, as long as that machariel was initially spawned as part of normal/regular gameplay, let them!
Vanity stuff, I could care less, want to buy a hat, some fluffy bunny slippers, go for it, I could honestly care less.
If a NexMach is better than a NormalMach, this sets up pay to win scenario. This is what all the rage is about.
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
a 200$ machariel would infact increase manufacturers profits, since a 200$ machariel will not be throw around lightly, and that player will most likely buy a second mach just so he can use it in more risky situations. It also increases the target value of his ship, increasing his risk, increasing killmails, increasing sold machariels.
It won't stay there. As you say, CCP is indeed a business. And in the sandbox they are god, they are a monopoly. They will over time use that power at the expense of everyone else in the sandbox. You can cite a slippery slope argument if you want to, but historical precedent sets the chain of causality to rock sold. No monopoly has ever not abused its power, and CCP are no saints.
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
So all i see is good for ccp, good for players. And a whole lot of whining from idiots
Money > Plex > Machariel / 100m sp char Money > Aur > NeX Machariel Isk > Plex > Aur > NeX Machariel
there is no advantage given to people who are rich irl... at least no more then already given by PLEX.
Because you're looking at the proposition from your individual perspective, you are not considering the entirety of the economy. You your self do not escape your own desire for more power, and you think CCP isn't going to abuse it?
My faith in CCP will return SoonÖ We'll watch what you do not what you say.
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:32:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Everyone forgets that it makes real life circumstances then get reflected in the game, its no longer an equal game, it does break game by making it real life dependent.
No, you're overlooking PLEX/GTC. GTC already allows you to buy a 100mil SP character and titan.
The idea that NeX store is for money only is obscene, as you can clearly already buy NeX items with Isk.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:33:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Originally by: Adunh Slavy If NexMach is better that RegularMach, then an arms race, paid for with real cash has been created. This is a pay to win scenario.
You're 100% right... if it wasnt for the fact you can buy NeXMach with Isk also. So it would be an arms race... paid for with real cash OR ingame currency.
And how exactly would buying a NeXmach with money be any different then buying a regular mach with money via plex? Both are available via cash or isk. Both require regular manufacturers to build the initial ship thats being upgraded.
how is this so difficult for people to understand? lol.
It is you that do not understand. Go brush up on your econmics and a bit of monetary theory.
My faith in CCP will return SoonÖ We'll watch what you do not what you say.
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Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:37:00 -
[92]
Edited by: Brainless Bimbo on 30/06/2011 09:38:51
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Everyone forgets that it makes real life circumstances then get reflected in the game, its no longer an equal game, it does break game by making it real life dependent.
No, you're overlooking PLEX/GTC. GTC already allows you to buy a 100mil SP character and titan.
The idea that NeX store is for money only is obscene, as you can clearly already buy NeX items with Isk.
Yeah, but they were not magicked up out of a database entry were they, a player did it, you have to buy players work And the NeX store was designed from the ground up to be a pure cash generation mechanic that is why it has BUY PLEX button and only uses PLEX for conversion and plz remember that a PLEX is GTC sales dependent not in game actions dependent. Also the requirement for an article was never built in to it, so its is a pure cash thing for magicked pixels.
Sand Box or Litter Tray
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:40:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/06/2011 09:45:03
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
We'll wait and see what comes out of the CSM summit. So much for your point there.
how does that break my point at all? Look at my original post, it contains a link detailing CCP's plans to integrate even the vanity painted ships with manufacturers by requiring a regular version of the item to be traded up. Its there in black and white, written by CCP, posted on the forums, detailing their plans to implement this. My god people.
Originally by: Adunh Slavy If a NexMach is better than a NormalMach, this sets up pay to win scenario. This is what all the rage is about.
If you had bother reading any of the previous posts, this argument you have put forward has already been stomped all over and proven to be false. Why? Because the NexMach would still be available via isk OR money... Just as the regular mach is currently available via isk OR money.
Originally by: Adunh Slavy It won't stay there. As you say, CCP is indeed a business. And in the sandbox they are god, they are a monopoly. They will over time use that power at the expense of everyone else in the sandbox. You can cite a slippery slope argument if you want to, but historical precedent sets the chain of causality to rock sold. No monopoly has ever not abused its power, and CCP are no saints.
so whats your point here? You've basically stated that CCP is going to **** everyone over reguardless. perhaps you should just stop giving them money. You obviously lack the mental capacity to think this situation through, and so you probably shouldn't be handling money or paying for videogames anyways.
Originally by: Adunh Slavy
Because you're looking at the proposition from your individual perspective, you are not considering the entirely of the economy. You your self do not escape your own desire for more power, and you think CCP isn't going to abuse it?
what the **** does that even mean? My individual perspective? is backed up with facts as i've repeated several times all the way through this topic. Again, if you think CCP is just going to abuse its power regardless, ****ing quit.
Why are you here arguing over this one point when you already think they're going to trash the game regardless of which way the non-vanity issue goes?
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Irie Irie Irie
Caldari Trillionaire High-Rollers Suicidal Bassoon Orkesta
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:43:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity individual perspective? is backed up with bull**** i've repeated several times all the way through this topic.
GTFO you are too dumb ~~~
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:44:00 -
[95]
Originally by: Adunh Slavy It is you that do not understand. Go brush up on your econmics and a bit of monetary theory.
lol see, i present a solid case with facts and logical reasoning... and the only defense you can come up with is 'ur dumb'.
Originally by: Brainless Bimbo Yeah, but they were not magicked up out of a database entry were they, a player did it, you have to buy players work And the NeX store was designed from the ground up to be a pure cash generation mechanic that is why it has BUY PLEX button and only uses PLEX for conversion and plz remember that a PLEX is GTC sales dependent not in game actions dependent. Also the requirement for an article was never built in to it, so its is a pure cash thing for magicked pixels.
please tell me you're trolling. you cant really be this dumb and still use a computer... Again, i refer to my original post on this thread, at the bottom theres a link detailing CCP's plan to NOT magically appear them out of thin air.
i have no faith in humanity after this. thanks ccp =P
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Franz Sigel
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:45:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Originally by: Jimmy Duce
Yes it would help which is why I'm not arguing the economic point, my main point is I do not wish to play a game where you pay $ and are better.
You already do. PLEX allows a brand new player to be instantly better then you, both in isk, skills and ships.
No. All that you're buying as a wealthy noob is already in the game. The char you buy has been built up in-game. The gear you buy has been built up in-game. The isk you buy have been generated in-game. You only change the RL owner of virtual items. It doesn't matter in-game which RL guy is actually looking through your monocle if you decide to sell your char.
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Terminal Insanity
Minmatar Convex Enterprises
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:51:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Franz Sigel No. All that you're buying as a wealthy noob is already in the game. The char you buy has been built up in-game. The gear you buy has been built up in-game. The isk you buy have been generated in-game. You only change the RL owner of virtual items. It doesn't matter in-game which RL guy is actually looking through your monocle if you decide to sell your char.
yay more stupid people.
I know you're just going to ignore my logically sound post and continue on believing your fantasy, but i'll try ... again...
In order to purchace a evil super-over-powered NeXMach, you must first aquire a regular Machariel built by regular means with regular materials.
Follow so far?
Now, the NeXMach will remove a regular mach from your posession... and replace it with the NeXMach.
See how that instantly invalidates your point? see how it still keeps the regular industrial players in the loop? See how non-magically the ship is created?
probably not. But i guess thats why you dont wear a monocle.
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Adunh Slavy
Ammatar Trade Syndicate
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:55:00 -
[98]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
how does that break my point at all? Look at my original post, it contains a link detailing CCP's plans to integrate even the vanity painted ships with manufacturers by requiring a regular version of the item to be traded up. Its there in black and white, written by CCP, posted on the forums, detailing their plans to implement this. My god people.
I responded to your red herring, you don't like the answer. Too bad.
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
If you had bother reading any of the previous posts, this argument you have put forward has already been stomped all over and proven to be false. Why? Because the NexMach would still be available via isk OR money... Just as the regular mach is currently available via Plex OR money.
And you fail completely to understand the ramifications that this scenario will have upon the value of ISK much less why. If you can not grasp that, then I can't help you. Please stick your head in the sand and do your best to ignore 4,000 years of economic evidence.
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
so whats your point here? You've basically stated that CCP is going to **** everyone over reguardless. perhaps you should just stop giving them money. You obviously lack the mental capacity to think this situation through, and so you probably shouldn't be handling money or paying for videogames anyways.
LOL, The point is the stuff you pay for today won't be worth what you paid for it over the long term. CCP will look for ways to increase sales, a better ship, better ammo, cheaper prices. They'll just keep adding more and more pay to win. Your NexMach today will be tomorrow's rifter.
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
what the **** does that even mean? My individual perspective? is backed up with facts as i've repeated several times all the way through this topic. Again, if you think CCP is just going to abuse its power regardless, ****ing quit.
It means you have demonstrably proven you do not understand economics.
As for me quitting, if they have not given me the answers I require, then I will be gone when my subscription runs out. And as I told you before a few days ago, if you don't like it, go to hell.
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Why are you here arguing over this one point when you already think they're going to trash the game regardless of which way the non-vanity issue goes?
Why do you think everyone has canceled their subs? For laughs and giggles? To honk off the BlingTard monocle wearing space chavs?
My faith in CCP will return SoonÖ We'll watch what you do not what you say.
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Gouzu Kho
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Posted - 2011.06.30 09:57:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity You're 100% right... if it wasnt for the fact you can buy NeXMach with Isk also. So it would be an arms race... paid for with real cash OR ingame currency.
And how exactly would buying a NeXmach with money be any different then buying a regular mach with money via plex? Both are available via cash or isk. Both require regular manufacturers to build the initial ship thats being upgraded.
how is this so difficult for people to understand? lol.
The first problem is that it is not a pure ISK transaction, a plex (or more) needs to be used, so someone has to pay CCP somewhere down the line. It is thus not accurate to say the NexMach is available for ISK.
Combined with the situation that the superior Nexmach can only be bought through the Nex it means that players who 'only' pay a sub don't have a gameplay alternative to get an equal ship.
In the end your superior NexMach gives those who pay an unfair advantage over those who don't. And in a competitive sandbox like EVE that means a pay-to-win scenario, meaning no more actual sandbox.
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Shpenat
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Posted - 2011.06.30 10:02:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity
Valid Proposal
Your post is valid argument and question. But it is missing one important point of view.
As was pointed out above me, you cant buy anything with PLEX (RL cash) directly. Ingame the hi SP character (that can beat you) was presented before. That he is now played by new player A instead of original player B does not change anything ingame. Same with buying the machariel for PLEX. The machariel was already there created by players.
You wanted the other item to be traded in exchange for NEX item. That is good expectation, but breaks one game mechanism: "If the item is better it needs to have ingame added value"
Let me explain on examples.
Faction Ammo: It has better statistics than normal ammo. So it requires standart ammo and LPs to be spent while LPs can be obtained only by ingame mechanics (mission grinding). It did not have to be you who grind the LP.
Faction ships: Somebody had to find the BPC, obtain minerals and create it. It is all done by ingame mechanics and the ship is better.
NEX items: only added value is RL cash, which is out of game item. It does not have to be your cash, but the statement still holds. That is the main problem with game affecting NEX items.
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Franz Sigel
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Posted - 2011.06.30 10:06:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity In order to purchace a evil super-over-powered NeXMach, you must first aquire a regular Machariel built by regular means with regular materials.
Follow so far?
Now, the NeXMach will remove a regular mach from your posession... and replace it with the NeXMach.
See how that instantly invalidates your point? see how it still keeps the regular industrial players in the loop? See how non-magically the ship is created?
(ignoring the insult)
So to what end would that help? Why buying a NeXMach when I can buy a Mach? If that NeXMach would have some surplus over the Mach (i-win-lasers), then it would introduce surplus value out of thin air. If it doesn't - why the heck should I buy one? If its vanity only because of the shiny gold paint of that NeXMach, no one would complain (in fact, some would still do, but we wouldn't have riots).
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Relshar
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Posted - 2011.06.30 10:56:00 -
[102]
Stop feeding the OP. He has no real grasp on monetry issues nor in game mechanics of trade and industry.
He also has no idea what he is talking about with the NeXMach.
NeXageddon will be coming I think.
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fgft Athonille
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Posted - 2011.06.30 11:06:00 -
[103]
Edited by: fgft Athonille on 30/06/2011 11:06:28
Originally by: Irie Irie Irie
GTFO you are too dumb
this combined with you telling him he is a terrible troll has made my head explode with irony
you need to gtfo and stfu. look at this way. you fund multiple accounts and all you do is ship toast you havent done anything of consequence in tq
Originally by: Skippermonkey keep trying and you can be an hero just like fgft Athonille
Originally by: Singeaboot Raj Tbh i am beginning to see the win - it's the haircut, makes people take notice.
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Lee Evans
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Posted - 2011.06.30 11:18:00 -
[104]
So what everyone does not want really is stuff/ships/modules coming out of thin air. It has nothing to do with NEX plex specs money to win or any of that carp.
And so we think CCP will make ships and Items appear out of nowhere ? do we really think they'll do that ? show me a hint they will and we can all protest that instead of labeling NEX and AUR as game killing.
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Patient 2428190
DEGRREE'Fo'FREE Internet Business School
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Posted - 2011.06.30 11:20:00 -
[105]
As long as its stupidly expensive, thus basically impractical I can live with it.
Meta 16 goods for nearly 45K Aurum type thing. ...Then when you stopped to think about it. All you really said was Lalala. |
Enik3
Crimson Empire. Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.06.30 11:47:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Cataca Genious
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Uther Istavel
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Posted - 2011.06.30 11:50:00 -
[107]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/06/2011 07:27:18 First and foremost, it would probably cause a lot of crybabies to quit.
Now seriously, lets pretend they place a "NeX Siege Launcher" in the NeX store. I can still purchase this with Isk by buying a PLEX with isk, and converting it into Aur.
So, it allows me to use the non-vanity items, as well as give players who obviously suck at eve the chance to buy them with their own real money (Again, no different then buying GTC and then selling it for a Machariel.)
The argument that it would break the ingame economy? It wont. Why? Because there are countless ways to implement this without breaking the economy. Just one example: Require a trade-up of a player-built item in addition to Aur for the non-vanity item.
So now, we have non-vanity items that dont break the game economy, padding CCP's wallet, enabling them to continue growing and building eve and other games. We have eliminated the poor brats who's unintelligent opinions seem to be trashing CCP's good name for absolutely no reason, and we've kept the majority of the player base.
Edit part: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1527783&page=13#364 Just because some people were claiming my 'trade up' example was imaginary/thought up 'by me' etc... there was also a devblog about it, but i tire of digging up quotes repeatedly for people who wont read them anyway.
So you propose to introduce the real word margins between the rich and poor into a virtual world?
gotta say, you must really have tried to sound like a ****, this sorta asshatery just doesnt come naturally. _______________________________________________
Profit isnt a reason, its an excuse. |
Franz Sigel
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Posted - 2011.06.30 11:52:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Lee Evans So what everyone does not want really is stuff/ships/modules coming out of thin air. It has nothing to do with NEX plex specs money to win or any of that carp.
And so we think CCP will make ships and Items appear out of nowhere ? do we really think they'll do that ? show me a hint they will and we can all protest that instead of labeling NEX and AUR as game killing.
C'mon, you CAN read the leaked statements to that end! I'll be perfectly happy if they don't, but then CCP has to chop the head off of some PR guy or girl!
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ninjaholic
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Posted - 2011.06.30 11:53:00 -
[109]
You have a monocle. Your opinion is invalid.
+ Support EVE's own IN-GAME fight record tool!
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George Holden
Gallente Syndicated Systems ROMANIAN-LEGION
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Posted - 2011.06.30 12:12:00 -
[110]
Buying PLEX off market to convert into Aur = good Buying PLEX through real life cash to convert into Aur = bad
Solution: remove PLEX from conversion and use raw ISK instead? Less convenient for the "oil tycoon" but it does not circumvent the market and thus not spawn items out of thin air or real cash rather create them from ISK produced by mission runners and such.
I'm working hard on the "gold ammo" items and the only solution that I might be able to live with is make them like officer stuff. To pick up the Machariel example, turn in a Mach get a 1-run copy + 5 billion ISK equivalent Aurum for an Estamel's Mach with let's say 1k more shields, armor and hull and some more PG/CPU or maybe just a tad bit faster. Crazy expensive for a pimped Mach with a big "OH DEAR GOD PLEASE GANK ME" sign on it and from my point of view not worth the ISK but maybe someone will buy it. Just some thoughts
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Kin Netics
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Posted - 2011.06.30 12:26:00 -
[111]
This thread has derailed but I would like to make a comment. I understand the gripe but let's be honest here. Eve is a low pop game and ccp needs money. A solution would this. Ccp should allow any ship blown up by a pilot that has purchased skills/ship that was bought with rl money a full refund of gear and ship at their home base and the pilot should not get credit.for the kill if the ship/skills were used. Also these pilots should be allowed to be griefed and a wardec should be free against that pilots corp. That should level the playing field.
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Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar Clan Hyena
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Posted - 2011.06.30 12:34:00 -
[112]
Originally by: Blane Xero
Originally by: Terminal Insanity I can see you but all i hear is blabbering. Who are you again? Never mind, it is of no importance.
Yeah, who I am is of no importance. Who the **** are you again?
Oh yeah, the pleb who contributed towards a $70 MICROtransaction.
It's more like $60, but that's splitting hairs. ---- "Sounds like a bad case of pikal envy, if you ask me."
Chief Engineering Officer - got the tools to fix your problems.
The new Maelstrom: Say hello to my little Dread. |
Alejan Gerakh
Minmatar Clan Hyena
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Posted - 2011.06.30 12:38:00 -
[113]
Originally by: George Holden Buying PLEX off market to convert into Aur = good Buying PLEX through real life cash to convert into Aur = bad
Solution: remove PLEX from conversion and use raw ISK instead? Less convenient for the "oil tycoon" but it does not circumvent the market and thus not spawn items out of thin air or real cash rather create them from ISK produced by mission runners and such.
This is brilliant. Besides, who's ever heard of trading licenses to convert currencies? That sounds suspiciously like money laundering. ---- "Sounds like a bad case of pikal envy, if you ask me."
Chief Engineering Officer - got the tools to fix your problems.
The new Maelstrom: Say hello to my little Dread. |
Franz Sigel
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Posted - 2011.06.30 12:51:00 -
[114]
Originally by: Kin Netics This thread has derailed but I would like to make a comment. I understand the gripe but let's be honest here. Eve is a low pop game and ccp needs money. A solution would this. Ccp should allow any ship blown up by a pilot that has purchased skills/ship that was bought with rl money a full refund of gear and ship at their home base and the pilot should not get credit.for the kill if the ship/skills were used. Also these pilots should be allowed to be griefed and a wardec should be free against that pilots corp. That should level the playing field.
Seems to me this would implement contradicting policies - to eat the cake and have it. Whatever CCP decides - they have to implement it consequently. They didn't contemplate gold ammo because players want them, but because CPP wants it. So if this is intended to wash cash into their purses, they can't obstruct people willing to buy gold ammo by fickling with counter-gold-ammo rules. And if they tried nevertheless, they had a never-ending job of balancing two incompatible systems with superimposed rules - we would never again have clear, reliable game mechanics.
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Def Antares
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Posted - 2011.06.30 12:52:00 -
[115]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/06/2011 07:27:18 First and foremost, it would probably cause a lot of crybabies to quit.
Now seriously, lets pretend they place a "NeX Siege Launcher" in the NeX store. I can still purchase this with Isk by buying a PLEX with isk, and converting it into Aur.
So, it allows me to use the non-vanity items, as well as give players who obviously suck at eve the chance to buy them with their own real money (Again, no different then buying GTC and then selling it for a Machariel.)
The argument that it would break the ingame economy? It wont. Why? Because there are countless ways to implement this without breaking the economy. Just one example: Require a trade-up of a player-built item in addition to Aur for the non-vanity item.
So now, we have non-vanity items that dont break the game economy, padding CCP's wallet, enabling them to continue growing and building eve and other games. We have eliminated the poor brats who's unintelligent opinions seem to be trashing CCP's good name for absolutely no reason, and we've kept the majority of the player base.
Edit part: http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1527783&page=13#364 Just because some people were claiming my 'trade up' example was imaginary/thought up 'by me' etc... there was also a devblog about it, but i tire of digging up quotes repeatedly for people who wont read them anyway.
as you say you can already buy isk with rl cash and then game items from it. why is it you want a new store?
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Akara Ito
Amarr Kriegsmarinewerft Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.06.30 13:29:00 -
[116]
Originally by: Terminal Insanity Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/06/2011 05:28:49 Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/06/2011 05:26:29
Originally by: Cataca
How about backing up your own theories instead of speaking out of nowhere? I know im just demanding here, but hey, if you please im a steady follower.
I have backed up my theories with examples in my original post, and a post not too far above this one.
It is the anti-nex people who have yet to present a reasonable argument against non-vanity items. All they've shown so far is their mindless rage.
Originally by: Irie Irie Irie no one is responding to it seriously because its a worthless **** troll and you are adding nothing that hasn't already been talked about in other threads.
The original post wasn't a troll at all. Though, i am enjoying your rage in the subsequent replies =)
My original post presents a firm and reasonable explanation of why non-vanity is non-issue. If i'm the terrible troll, why are the anti-nex people the only ones flaming this thread?
Lets see, for T2 items we have:
1. buy a BPO (Isk sink) 2. Copy the BPO (usually requires a POS that consumes Fuel) 3. Invent the BPC (again, most likely to be done at a POS and it needs Datacores from the market) 4. Build the item (requires materials from moon mining and conventional mining -> market)
For Factionships and a lot if not most of faction items we have:
1. Run missions 2. get BPC for LP (ISK sink) 3. build the stuff (requires materials and BPC are ofter sold and build by somebody else -> market)
It is possible to get finished items with LP and from DED plexes but even then there are people running those plexes and most importantly: Even if somebody buys a sh itload of uberitems with ISK he got from GTC, people have played the game to get these items. The Nex items will be spawned, even if the items will be BPCs, the BPCs for faction items dont spawn, they need to be gathered by players spending time in the game.
Basicly, a player that does only mission running is kind of a generator for faction items from the LP shop. This player (and his account) wont be needed anymore in case Nex versions of common faction items will be available. Its a consumer having fun vs "press button to spawn item"
And I'm not even talking abotu rising Plex prices, CCP using the subscription money to develop items to charge their customers again and the general "holy **** we need to get 2 games done lets milk that cow until it bleeds" attitude.
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DeODokktor
Caldari Dark Templars The Fonz Presidium
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Posted - 2011.06.30 13:41:00 -
[117]
Edited by: DeODokktor on 30/06/2011 13:43:23
Originally by: Rosa Cardenalis Can someone actually explain to me why this wouldn't work or would break the economy? It looks fine to me.
For a trade-in system, or a bpc sorta drop then it wouldnt be a HUGE violation. The issue would be with the stats of the item.
I am sure, 99% sure, that ccp will re-balance NeX prices based on consumption. And given time, Stats will be modified (even slightly) to help drive consumption. CCP has just became the new Tech2 bpo monopoly!
Sure, the NeX HML bpc could cost 50m/run (500 AUR) and have stats better than faction. What will happen to faction HML's... They will drop, What will happen to people who normally buy those via LP rewards, they'll purchase new stuff. But wait, a lot of that other stuff they would move to now has NeX variations. So what to do, sell cheaper. Selling cheaper has just devalued LP, Missions just became less profitable, Agent running just happened less. Ammo Sellers in Agent hubs just took a big hit.. Drone sellers in agent hubs just took a big hit.. Recycled Loot just took a big hit.. Players now move/migrate
So players dropped price, now faction seems once again to be better than NeX due to cost being perhaps half, CCP Responds, NeX HML bpc's now cost 30m/run (300 AUR) and the cycle starts over. Not only that, but Isk Sellers (ingame plex) might find that PLEX's start to go up, due to the increased volume required for cheaper modules in NeX..
There's only one group who gets a benefit at all.... It's not the group who's in the game :P.
This -of course- assumes that ccp introduces a way to buy advantage, it might not happen. ----------- Never Forget the joy of finding a main to link to a scammer alt. N-y-p-h-u-r ! ! |
Darth Mouse
Caldari Steel Soldier's
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Posted - 2011.06.30 13:49:00 -
[118]
At the end of the day, his items will fall to the first gate camp his "pwn ship" encounters, as he'll be over zealous.
World of tanks is the same, people in the "bought" tanks tend to storm ahead and get reduced to smouldering rubble ...
the difference is in Eve, I can then loot his launchers and use them as my own ...
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Kin Netics
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:53:00 -
[119]
Originally by: Franz Sigel
Originally by: Kin Netics This thread has derailed but I would like to make a comment. I understand the gripe but let's be honest here. Eve is a low pop game and ccp needs money. A solution would this. Ccp should allow any ship blown up by a pilot that has purchased skills/ship that was bought with rl money a full refund of gear and ship at their home base and the pilot should not get credit.for the kill if the ship/skills were used. Also these pilots should be allowed to be griefed and a wardec should be free against that pilots corp. That should level the playing field.
Seems to me this would implement contradicting policies - to eat the cake and have it. Whatever CCP decides - they have to implement it consequently. They didn't contemplate gold ammo because players want them, but because CPP wants it. So if this is intended to wash cash into their purses, they can't obstruct people willing to buy gold ammo by fickling with counter-gold-ammo rules. And if they tried nevertheless, they had a never-ending job of balancing two incompatible systems with superimposed rules - we would never again have clear, reliable game mechanics.
Maybe, but there needs to be some sort of regulation put in place to govern the effect that these exploiters have on game mechanics. There is no question about it. Logic dictates that the players that don't buy gameplay items will fall behind for no reason associated with there characters advancement, only by outside resources not associated with this game which tbh would be total crap
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Majuan Shuo
Gallente Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.06.30 14:59:00 -
[120]
Edited by: Majuan Shuo on 30/06/2011 15:05:57
Originally by: Terminal Insanity Edited by: Terminal Insanity on 30/06/2011 07:27:18 Blah blah blah stupid **** (Again, no different then buying GTC and then selling it for a Machariel.) blah blah blah more stupid ****
Law of *diminishing* marginal utility. "All your monies AUR belong to us." -- CCP |
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