Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 0 post(s) |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:44:00 -
[1]
From the CSM minutes:
Quote: CCP talked about removing ABC (Arkonor, Bistot and Crokite) mining sites from wormhole space at some point in the future. This may be from all wormholes, or possibly from lower class wormholes only. It was claimed by some members of the CSM that a large fraction of the high end ore supply is produced through these sites, however the CSMs who were active in wormholes would not accept this claim without hard data to back it up.
Are there actually people stupid enough to think the small amounts of minerals and ore we get from the occasional sites in wormholes even put a dent in the massive bot-mining operations of null sec? Seriously? When gravs spawn in holes you have what, maybe 15K arkonor total to mine, give or take? Meanwhile in 0.0 they have infinite replenishing asteroid belts, jump gates and bridges, bot-fleets churning away 23/7...
It takes a lot of effort compared to null mining to mine in holes. There's limited supplies of ore, there's no local channel warning the bot fleets to warp away to safety, you have to move large masses of ore through holes with limited mass capabilities before they pop, or you're paying a 25% penalty at the least to process ores in the hole, then odds are you're using most of the minerals you need for your own purposes or those of your alliance.
What they need to do is ADD moon goo to wormholes, not take away the piddly resources we currently have. I know CCP is smarter than this.
They have to be.
There is no monocle. |
Jack Tronic
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:48:00 -
[2]
It's just the botters trying to eliminate the competition.
|
Cashcow Golden Goose
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:49:00 -
[3]
The CSM are there to make CCP look smart. Although it looks like a race to see who comes second in a two spastic race the last few weeks.
|
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:50:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Jack Tronic It's just the botters trying to eliminate the competition.
That's the problem, you can't bot in holes, period. They know that, they hide in null behind the skirt called "local" and cry that others get the occasional tidbit of ore that they have to be present to mine.
There is no monocle. |
Phelan Votronski
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:51:00 -
[5]
Quote: CCP has to be smarter than this... they have to be.
I had that thought a thousand times. Each time it turned out that no they aren't and no they don't have to be either.
You must understand that 0.0 is endgame in a game that supposedly knows no endgame. Now I know ccp told you that wormholes are 0.0 and they gave you all the risk associated with it. What they didn't tell you is that you're still only a second class citizen next to the "real 0.0 players". Did you honestly expect them to let their broskis down? They're not going to fix 0.0 anytime soon so the least thing they could do was to **** in your cereals so the Mittani and the other bros can feel better nonetheless. It's win-win. Except for you.
|
Savage Angel
Gallente Gambler's Inc.
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:53:00 -
[6]
It does sound silly, as the ABC ore in WH's is barely profitable to mine as it is. Running combat sites, mining gas, research, production, PI, Mag and Radar sites are much more productive activities. Mining is what you do when you run out of other stuff.
Then you have the logistics of getting it out through a mass-limited WH into a random system, and then moving it to market. Why would they even think it is a threat to what null sec can do?
|
dexington
Caldari Baconoration
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:54:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Phelan Votronski You must understand that 0.0 is endgame in a game that supposedly knows no endgame. Now I know ccp told you that wormholes are 0.0 and they gave you all the risk associated with it. What they didn't tell you is that you're still only a second class citizen next to the "real 0.0 players".
Did the CSM tell CCP 0.0 was end game or was it CCP who told the CSM?
no matter what it sounds like the blind leading the blind...
|
Medidranda Livoga
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:56:00 -
[8]
Doesn`t look likely to me either. Getting high ends out of normal 0.0 is easier than trying to keep up routes through wormholes and deal with lack of local, jumpbridges and jump freighters.
|
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 14:57:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Phelan Votronski
Quote: CCP has to be smarter than this... they have to be.
I had that thought a thousand times. Each time it turned out that no they aren't and no they don't have to be either.
You must understand that 0.0 is endgame in a game that supposedly knows no endgame. Now I know ccp told you that wormholes are 0.0 and they gave you all the risk associated with it. What they didn't tell you is that you're still only a second class citizen next to the "real 0.0 players". Did you honestly expect them to let their broskis down? They're not going to fix 0.0 anytime soon so the least thing they could do was to **** in your cereals so the Mittani and the other bros can feel better nonetheless. It's win-win. Except for you.
Endgame? Watch the tears if someone mentions removing local. The bots tear up like someone stole their lollypop. Someday when their nuts drop they can try -1.0 space.
There is no monocle. |
Vandrion
Gallente The Collective B O R G
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 15:01:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Phelan Votronski
Quote: CCP has to be smarter than this... they have to be.
I had that thought a thousand times. Each time it turned out that no they aren't and no they don't have to be either.
You must understand that 0.0 is endgame in a game that supposedly knows no endgame. Now I know ccp told you that wormholes are 0.0 and they gave you all the risk associated with it. What they didn't tell you is that you're still only a second class citizen next to the "real 0.0 players". Did you honestly expect them to let their broskis down? They're not going to fix 0.0 anytime soon so the least thing they could do was to **** in your cereals so the Mittani and the other bros can feel better nonetheless. It's win-win. Except for you.
Endgame? Watch the tears if someone mentions removing local. The bots tear up like someone stole their lollypop. Someday when their nuts drop they can try -1.0 space.
Removing local or changing it as stated in the CSM meeting notes isn't gonna hurt botters at all. The folks that make the programs will just add a script to d-scan or use whatever ever tool ccp adds.
In one way it could actually make botting easier as removing local also means that your random pilot will have to spend additional time checking every system they jump in for activity....
|
|
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 15:26:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Vandrion
Removing local or changing it as stated in the CSM meeting notes isn't gonna hurt botters at all. The folks that make the programs will just add a script to d-scan or use whatever ever tool ccp adds.
In one way it could actually make botting easier as removing local also means that your random pilot will have to spend additional time checking every system they jump in for activity....
Not on topic, but nah... you wouldn't even have to scan out the sites like you do in holes. Just fly a covops to the known belts, locate targets, ???, profit.
In wormholes you need to either scan the sites or the ships out... none of this carebear "asteroid belt" stuff.
There is no monocle. |
Phelan Votronski
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 15:38:00 -
[12]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Endgame? Watch the tears if someone mentions removing local. The bots tear up like someone stole their lollypop. Someday when their nuts drop they can try -1.0 space.
You're quite right, Ingvar. I'm merely saying that is the understanding (most) 0.0 players have of themselves and that CCP has been actively feeding it for a long time now. If you think this is likely to change you're about to make a mistake imo.
|
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 16:35:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Phelan Votronski
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Endgame? Watch the tears if someone mentions removing local. The bots tear up like someone stole their lollypop. Someday when their nuts drop they can try -1.0 space.
You're quite right, Ingvar. I'm merely saying that is the understanding (most) 0.0 players have of themselves and that CCP has been actively feeding it for a long time now. If you think this is likely to change you're about to make a mistake imo.
Still, I find it hard to believe that CCP would implement a change designed to help only the null-bots
There is no monocle. |
Taggerung Viliana
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 16:37:00 -
[14]
If you don't like the way the game is going then why in the world are you still playing? Vote with your pocketbook, don't play the game, go play something else. Unsub.
|
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 16:40:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Taggerung Viliana If you don't like the way the game is going then why in the world are you still playing? Vote with your pocketbook, don't play the game, go play something else. Unsub.
What, simply walk away and let the game get flushed down the 0.0 toilet without even trying to influence a decision that has hole-breaking effects?
Unsubbing is for the weak.
There is no monocle. |
Jack Thurner
Caldari Terran Legacy
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 16:47:00 -
[16]
I guess they could reintroduce the way it used to be a couple of years ago, when the belts replenished once a week (tuesdays I believe, or thursdays).. |
Steve Thomas
Minmatar Sebiestor Tribe
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:05:00 -
[17]
In reply to your original question I post the following examples of CCP being "smarter than this. . . Not!"
T2 Lotto T-20 Moonmat Exploit Initial rollout of T3 mat "harvesting" Original rollout of boosters Original and current Sov mechancis Initial rollout of PI oh and the whole Related reprocessing botchup there ham handed launch of Incarna and the Vanity store. .End of line.
If your too paranoid to play EvE. . . ...then your not paranoid enough to play EvE ----------------
|
Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd Ferguson Alliance
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:07:00 -
[18]
I've lived in a WH for a year and even though mining ark was one of the things that first piqued my interest about WH, it's something I never got around to actually doing. Still, ganking miners is fun and CCP needs to take this boneheaded plan off the table.
Incidentally, I'm surprised to learn that those 0.0 areas where the big alliances live are in nullsec and have ABC ore. Since those areas are as secure as empire (in most cases) and are rife with bots/macros, I think it would make more sense to remove ABC ore from 0.0.
"I represent those who voted for me, not 'everyone'. Don't give me your entitled voter schtick ..." ~CSM Chair Mittens |
Jack Tronic
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:28:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Jack Tronic on 13/07/2011 17:29:32 Edited by: Jack Tronic on 13/07/2011 17:28:48
Originally by: Vandrion
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Phelan Votronski
Quote: CCP has to be smarter than this... they have to be.
I had that thought a thousand times. Each time it turned out that no they aren't and no they don't have to be either.
You must understand that 0.0 is endgame in a game that supposedly knows no endgame. Now I know ccp told you that wormholes are 0.0 and they gave you all the risk associated with it. What they didn't tell you is that you're still only a second class citizen next to the "real 0.0 players". Did you honestly expect them to let their broskis down? They're not going to fix 0.0 anytime soon so the least thing they could do was to **** in your cereals so the Mittani and the other bros can feel better nonetheless. It's win-win. Except for you.
Endgame? Watch the tears if someone mentions removing local. The bots tear up like someone stole their lollypop. Someday when their nuts drop they can try -1.0 space.
Removing local or changing it as stated in the CSM meeting notes isn't gonna hurt botters at all. The folks that make the programs will just add a script to d-scan or use whatever ever tool ccp adds.
In one way it could actually make botting easier as removing local also means that your random pilot will have to spend additional time checking every system they jump in for activity....
That's the thing, there are probers with so much experience that can scan you out so fast that not even bots will see the probes on dscan. Cloakies also defeat dscan. Also dscan is ranged limit,etc. Wormholers have a defense called paranoia, this is one thing a bot can never replicate.
-1.0 or else known as wspace is the true eve endgame.
|
Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:30:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Jack Tronic It's just the botters trying to eliminate the competition.
cynicial as it is i agree CCP Shadow 24/06/2010 17:30:40: We do not have plans to go microtransaction with EVE. October 2010 CSM Virtual Goods unveiled
|
|
Dario Kaelenter
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:45:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Vandrion
Not on topic, but nah... you wouldn't even have to scan out the sites like you do in holes. Just fly a covops to the known belts, locate targets, ???, profit.
In wormholes you need to either scan the sites or the ships out... none of this carebear "asteroid belt" stuff.
And that's if u even get a Grav site for starters! Our WH hasn't had a Grav site in almost 2 weeks now (and that's pretty frequent too!). Then when we do get one we don't usually have time and resources to mine the whole thing out anyway. And when mining in a wh grav site it's high risk and extra effort than hi sec or null sec mining as u need to constantly scan or lose ya ships/pods and then have to try and hope u get a good WH exit to get replacements and yourselves in... no clone jumping back to cosy alliance null sec station or Rorqual at null sec POS.
Then when the mining's done we have to get the ore to where we need/want it or refine at loss to use in WH. Rorqual built in many WHs is pretty much stuck so that's a cost that needs to be covered also and we tend to use many of our minerals from WH mining to increase other production rather then dump on the market and play the .1 isk war to get isk faster than any other seller
And the principles of economics do suggest that once the supply increases to a level where the price is so low that people can no longer see the return for their effort then they will switch to an alternative source of income. In Eve the demand isn't unlimited either which is also why the price falls fast though the actual sales of minerals isn't necessarily increasing ... in fact if you look at Zydrine then the price had declined over the past 6 months though the sales volumes are pretty much the same over the past year - there is no big increase in volume (except for a one off peek on the Domain market).
Megacyte on the other hand would contradict their claim as the price in the past month has actually increased and is actually a noticeable amount higher than it was a year ago. Sure it did have a jump in price around Dec to Feb though as this mineral primarily comes from mining ores in null sec and now WHs outside of the Drone alloys and recycling mods from mission loot (which I recall CCP's economist saying was a small % of the total source of megacyte). And again the sales volumes are pretty linear over the past year.
Then there's Nocxium which also may have come down a little in recent months but it had jumped up quite considerably in price after CCP tinkering back in Dec 2010. Volumes again are pretty consistent and again this is quite plentiful in the WH ores (crokite, hemorphite & hedbergite) so if there is a question of removing WH ores due to Mineral prices falling then why just ABCs and not Hem and Hed too as these have high quantities of Nocxium which also has fallen in price ?
And lastly we have Morphite which is only sometimes found in WHs or 0.0. If WH ores were to blame for decreases in mineral prices then why has Morphite not crashed in price also ? Sure it is only found in the exceptional WH grav sites and does require additional not often used skills (outside null sec) though this is an additional source apart from drone alloys. Sure it has slightly decreased in the past 2 months though it has in the past been lower.
tl;dr So CCP really need to look at the actual data and see that the markets aren't really crashing due to Wh ores rather than jump to a knee jerk reaction of removing ores from places. Some decreases in mineral prices may have been due to final recovery from their last course of tinkering.
Maybe they should look more at adjusting the total ore units of some roids that yield Zydrine as this is the only ore I really see free falling in price. And while price decreases can be good for the economy I'd tend to now spend my time mining roids that have minerals other than Zydrine if I want to best capitalise on my time spent mining.
|
Akira Samposeppa
Gallente Arthashastra
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:46:00 -
[22]
Edited by: Akira Samposeppa on 13/07/2011 17:55:09 Edited by: Akira Samposeppa on 13/07/2011 17:53:21 And the one of the worst things is (i can't find that quote, but its there somewhere) that some csm's didn't even know that wh's are 0.0 space and that they have abc ore.
So they are effectively deciding how will look other players game, without any knowledge what so ever on those parts of the game.
This quote from discussion thread explains a lot...
Originally by: The Mittani
Screw your class 1-4 ABC.
So that are the people that are representative of the player base and are consulting with ccp on direction of certain things in game.
I am pretty sure that csm representative has never been in wh, probably doesn't even know how to scan properly . And i have no respect for the people that don't know how to scan.
Wh's are the real endgame, not gay nap 0.0 circlejerk.
Leave wh's alone!
Edit: Just wanted to add... I actually don't care much about MT, CQ and all that c.r.a.p. I play eve because of w-space, unfortunately rl has stopped me lately to play eve that way but when i return i want to return into w-space with all the "small" and "sanboxie" stuff that makes your day fun and enjoyable. (ninja metro mining in wh's with a skiff and an alt on the lookout for instance, or living in a sb in someone else's wh and ganking their miners/haulers/salvagers...etc..etc)
If they kill the whole myriad of fun w-space could bring to daring and adventurous than eve is really going downhill
|
Othran
Brutor Tribe
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:52:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson I've lived in a WH for a year and even though mining ark was one of the things that first piqued my interest about WH, it's something I never got around to actually doing. Still, ganking miners is fun and CCP needs to take this boneheaded plan off the table.
Incidentally, I'm surprised to learn that those 0.0 areas where the big alliances live are in nullsec and have ABC ore. Since those areas are as secure as empire (in most cases) and are rife with bots/macros, I think it would make more sense to remove ABC ore from 0.0.
Move ABC ore to npc null and see how it goes without cyno jammers? The spike in prices ought to make it worthwhile
|
Aristeia Cersei
SQUIDS.
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 17:53:00 -
[24]
That has to be a joke.. I never mined in my own WH's when I lived in them, but I obviously checked the sites. The amount of ABC ore in them is minimal at best.
CCP & the CSM have to be absolute morons to think that ORE from WH's is even somehow relevant.
CSM is typically just a bunch of people whom want free trips to Iceland or want to preserve "self" interests. It's why no one listens to them including CCP. It's nothing more than a dog & pony show.
We would be better off, just having debates on the forums which included votes & polls to get input through to CCP.
|
Jackson Millenius
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 18:07:00 -
[25]
Ya I'm not a Miner so I haven't gone through the grav sites,
In our main hole there is 1 or 2 grav sites that pop up, and if they happen to be the ones which contain the ore setups that are worth mining, they still aren't as profitable as they are in null sec.
Also the fact that we have no local, means that we have no bots. We have to be at our computer if we want to do anything other than sitting cloaked in a safe. If that's who they are targeting then I think they should look elsewhere. If they want to hurt the smaller Indy miner who builds in his WH pos then this is the route to go.
'But I don't want to go among mad people,' said Alice. 'Oh, you can't help that,' said the cat. 'We're all mad here.' |
Jackson Millenius
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 18:19:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Vandrion
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Phelan Votronski
Quote: CCP has to be smarter than this... they have to be.
I had that thought a thousand times. Each time it turned out that no they aren't and no they don't have to be either.
You must understand that 0.0 is endgame in a game that supposedly knows no endgame. Now I know ccp told you that wormholes are 0.0 and they gave you all the risk associated with it. What they didn't tell you is that you're still only a second class citizen next to the "real 0.0 players". Did you honestly expect them to let their broskis down? They're not going to fix 0.0 anytime soon so the least thing they could do was to **** in your cereals so the Mittani and the other bros can feel better nonetheless. It's win-win. Except for you.
Endgame? Watch the tears if someone mentions removing local. The bots tear up like someone stole their lollypop. Someday when their nuts drop they can try -1.0 space.
Removing local or changing it as stated in the CSM meeting notes isn't gonna hurt botters at all. The folks that make the programs will just add a script to d-scan or use whatever ever tool ccp adds.
In one way it could actually make botting easier as removing local also means that your random pilot will have to spend additional time checking every system they jump in for activity....
Lol D-scan as the substitute for the bots? As long as shipnames can change that would never be possible.
'But I don't want to go among mad people,' said Alice. 'Oh, you can't help that,' said the cat. 'We're all mad here.' |
Digital Messiah
Oregami Ultd
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 18:41:00 -
[27]
If anything I think wormholes should exclusively have the hard to obtain ores. Prismatic Gneiss, Obsidian Ochre, Gleaming Spodumain, Crystalline Crokite, Monoclinic Bistot, Prime Arkonor, Vitreous Mercoxit.
An example of some 10% ores. Or even if they made ice mining exclusive to wormholes. It would force Alliances to become more interested in WH space. And it would lower the amount of bulk coming in from bots. Also if they did this all 5% variants would need to be rare spawns. Either way, I like WH space and I think Null needs a nerf and wh needs a buff.
Everyone complains null sec doesn't make enough money. But honestly it isn't about conquering and funding your war hand in hand. It is about conquering all! An army marches on it's stomach. And everywhere you go shouldn't have food ~_~.
Quote: "Frankly, my dear, I don't give a damn"
|
Scoto Timta
EveMerc's
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 18:41:00 -
[28]
Originally by: Akira Samposeppa
And the one of the worst things is (i can't find that quote, but its there somewhere) that some csm's didn't even know that wh's are 0.0 space and that they have abc ore.
Page 29 of the minutes.
Quote: Based on comments by CCP Greyscale in a previous session, the subject of removing "ABC" minerals from wormholes was raised by nullsec-resident CSMs, who were surprised to learn that WH space was nullsec and that ABC minerals were available in them. They favored entirely removing ABC from WH space -- or limiting them to C5 and C6 holes -- but the two wormhole-resident CSMs objected strongly, pointing out that exporting minerals from deep wormhole space was difficult, and much of it was likely consumed locally. An argument was made by some CSMs that the prices of ABC ores and refined products were being crashed by "daytrippers" mining in easily-accessible wormhole space; other CSMs stated that no nerfing of ABC minerals should take place without first obtaining detailed statistics about the balance of trade for each mineral and class of wormhole.
A couple of observations. If C5&C6 might be ok because they are "deep" wormhole space, then C4 should be ok too. It's just as "deep" as C5/6.
The one that really got my attention, though, was the assertion that daytrippers are crashing the mineral market. What utter and total stupid nonsense! I've lived in wspace off and on (mostly on) since a couple months after it was introduced. Started in C2 (hisec static), then moved to C5 for a while, then set up a PI farm in a C1 (hisec static). In all that time I have only ONCE seen a "daytripper" mining. He was doing it while I was offline, and he managed to spot my probes and run before I could kill him. I'll admit that there may have been some others that I never saw, but I'm absolutely certain that it's not so common as to be causing a market crash.
I'm not arguing to protect an income stream of my own. I just think it should be left as an option for the peeps who want to do it. We don't even mine our grav sites at all anymore. The hassle factor makes it a waste of time for us. I can make much better isk by running L4 missions than mining anything in wspace. When we were in the C5 we mined some, but most of it was for our own internal use to build caps for use in the wh. Certainly not for selling to the market.
|
Pure Tabasco
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 19:12:00 -
[29]
The day CCP changes the mining gameplay, the day they kill the macros. I have allways said it needs to be more interactive and more rewarding. If it becomes just as difficult as PVE then we will see finnaly the day where people are gonna jump to low sec and null sec for minerals. The day when the macros die. Please re-size your signature to the maximum allowed of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24000 bytes. Zymurgist |
Omara Otawan
|
Posted - 2011.07.13 19:18:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Jack Tronic It's just the botters trying to eliminate the competition.
|
|
|
|
|
Pages: [1] 2 :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |