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Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2011.07.22 15:31:00 -
[1]
For all the time and effort gone into the new turret system, it would have been nice to have battleship turrets easier to spot... In relation to the size of the ship...
It's not an urgent issue and I suppose it's probably an Art Dpt thing, but their far too small! ____ New Ships Wishlist |
Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2011.07.22 15:33:00 -
[2]
____ New Ships Wishlist |
StukaBee
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Posted - 2011.07.22 21:16:00 -
[3]
Turrets look pathetically undersized on battleships.
Here's an idea of how battleship turrets ought to compare to hull size:
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Nimrod Nemesis
Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2011.07.23 08:30:00 -
[4]
Yes, yes, and yes.
Give.
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Toovhon
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Posted - 2011.07.23 12:26:00 -
[5]
I've never seen the new turrets unless I zoom my BS in so far it stops me from being able to see anything else. That's just plain dumb. -- The Door! |
Sephiroth CloneIIV
Vitriol Ventures BLACK-MARK
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Posted - 2011.07.23 18:34:00 -
[6]
the size makes them look like secondary weapons. Not primary weapons. I understand that having cartoon like proportions would ruin it but reallife battleships have main guns that are quite viable
http://tapety.webz.cz/lode_soubory/battleship.jpg
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Omara Otawan
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Posted - 2011.07.23 19:23:00 -
[7]
Originally by: Sephiroth CloneIIV I understand that having cartoon like proportions would ruin it
And still, frigates tend to have exactly that cartoonish look, especially with autocannons.
Its fine on destroyers, but looking at my frigates makes me zoom out in disgust.
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Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2011.07.25 18:15:00 -
[8]
Thanks for the support so far. Not a massive issue but I'd imagine a lot agree that they could look a little bigger? ____ New Ships Wishlist |
Darryl Ward
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Posted - 2011.07.25 20:04:00 -
[9]
I don't really fly BS, but it would make sense to see some big honking guns on them. They should look menacing.
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Egilmonsc
Massively Mob
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Posted - 2011.07.26 04:40:00 -
[10]
Supported for scale~ --- Where we're going, we won't need eyes to see. |
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Arushia
Nova Labs New Eden Research.
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Posted - 2011.07.26 05:14:00 -
[11]
Supported. My Paladin deserves bigger tachyons.
New Eden Research, where your research gets done! |
Zoe Ardent
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Posted - 2011.07.26 07:38:00 -
[12]
In case of turrets, bigger is better |
Kaelie Onren
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Posted - 2011.07.26 07:41:00 -
[13]
Wonderful, another argument based on Real LifeTM logic. For a sci fi spaceship game. Wonderful. These arguments inevitably lead to anime like stupidity like this: Yamato
And I would rather not allow EVE to degenerate into Yet Another Gundam Game.
Can you see the turrets on a star destroyer? No, and so it should be. |
Flynn Fetladral
Caldari Royal Order of Security Specialists
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Posted - 2011.07.26 08:13:00 -
[14]
The problem with scale is that it's deceptive without reference. Just because a ship is bigger dose not mean that the turret needs to be larger. The picture posted in the thread of the US battleship 'USS Iowa', has a calibre size on it's main guns of 410mm, almost half the size of Minmatar medium artillery. Many of the ships in EVE Online have totally borked scale. Maybe CCP can confirm this, but I don't know if the turrets have been modelled to scale or not. However, this might well be a case of the ships in EVE Online are just so much bigger than even the largest of sea fairing warships afloat today. |
Manique
Caldari Ominous Corp
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Posted - 2011.07.26 09:38:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Flynn Fetladral The problem with scale is that it's deceptive without reference. Just because a ship is bigger dose not mean that the turret needs to be larger. The picture posted in the thread of the US battleship 'USS Iowa', has a calibre size on it's main guns of 410mm, almost half the size of Minmatar medium artillery. Many of the ships in EVE Online have totally borked scale. Maybe CCP can confirm this, but I don't know if the turrets have been modelled to scale or not. However, this might well be a case of the ships in EVE Online are just so much bigger than even the largest of sea fairing warships afloat today.
scale is what makes them appear undersized. not supported |
E man Industries
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Posted - 2011.07.26 15:29:00 -
[16]
Yes, my apoc looks pathetic. I can't even zoom in enough to see the guns.
This needs to be done
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Drake Draconis
Minmatar Shadow Cadre Shadow Confederation
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Posted - 2011.07.26 18:28:00 -
[17]
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Can you see the turrets on a star destroyer? No, and so it should be.
Actually...yes you can.
Your just not looking in the right spots.
: O P ========================= CEO of Shadow Cadre http://www.shadowcadre.com ========================= |
Maz3r Rakum
The Imperial Fedaykin
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Posted - 2011.07.26 19:27:00 -
[18]
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Sephiroth CloneIIV
Vitriol Ventures BLACK-MARK
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Posted - 2011.07.27 00:17:00 -
[19]
Edited by: Sephiroth CloneIIV on 27/07/2011 00:26:35
Originally by: Kaelie Onren Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 26/07/2011 07:55:53 Wonderful, another argument based on Real LifeTM logic. For a sci fi spaceship game. Wonderful. These arguments inevitably lead to anime like stupidity like this: Yamato
And I would rather not allow EVE to degenerate into Yet Another Gundam Game.
Can you see the turrets on a star destroyer? No, and so it should be.
EDIT: Not to mention, RL battleships were not much bigger than a small EVE cruiser, or destroyer. Exactly where you think the sizes looked 'right'.
A star destroyer has a bunch of little guns on the sides and all around (I know this because I am a nerd). Thats more of choice of guns and roles then saying that arbitrary a large ship doesn't need larger cannons. Lots of small guns might be better for smaller targets (frigs and fighters of the rebels, it is called a destroyer after all). And I think the ship might not have the largest guns because it is also has more of a role of a carrier. star destroyers if you watched the movies are used for transporting many tie fighters, troopers and even those giant 4 footed walkers, and the smaller 2 footed ones. Ever noticed that before the empire does anything on the ground a fleet of star destroyers are in space?
So it isn't a literal battleship, if you think about it. The galatic empire engineers could have chosen to have the same hull, get rid of the large cargo/troop/fighter bays and opt for larger reactors or ammo storage to power 8 large main cannons able to blast equally impressive holes in the largest of ships.
Furthermore for big ship on other big ship combat it makes more sense to have the largest caliber guns, for piercing shields or armor. Use a pea shooter that is normally used for swating flies and its just going to bounce.
Just seroulsy look at real battleships, the 'main' guns are decently sized. not all guns are but those are secondary weapons and doorstops, not to be confused with main armament (secondary weapons eve does not really deal with save rockets, only main guns are counted with a hard limit of 8).
Not only does having decently sized guns on a ship make it look cooler. It adds a bit of realism. Furtherpoint the presence of other things out of scale is only a further sign that more things should defiantly be fixed in that department.
On the same subject frig guns should maybe be reduced in size (though personally I think while maybe a bit too large are still more in scale then others for being main weapons). And defiantly carriers should be five times larger then they are currently (so 5 times larger then a battleship), and super carriers should be 10 times as massive as a regular carrier.
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Last Star Fighter
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Posted - 2011.07.27 02:04:00 -
[20]
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Kaelie Onren
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Posted - 2011.07.27 05:26:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Sephiroth CloneIIV Edited by: Sephiroth CloneIIV on 27/07/2011 00:26:35
Originally by: Kaelie Onren Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 26/07/2011 07:55:53 Wonderful, another argument based on Real LifeTM logic. For a sci fi spaceship game. Wonderful. These arguments inevitably lead to anime like stupidity like this: Yamato
And I would rather not allow EVE to degenerate into Yet Another Gundam Game.
Can you see the turrets on a star destroyer? No, and so it should be.
EDIT: Not to mention, RL battleships were not much bigger than a small EVE cruiser, or destroyer. Exactly where you think the sizes looked 'right'.
A star destroyer has a bunch of little guns on the sides and all around (I know this because I am a nerd). Thats more of choice of guns and roles then saying that arbitrary a large ship doesn't need larger cannons. Lots of small guns might be better for smaller targets (frigs and fighters of the rebels, it is called a destroyer after all). And I think the ship might not have the largest guns because it is also has more of a role of a carrier. star destroyers if you watched the movies are used for transporting many tie fighters, troopers and even those giant 4 footed walkers, and the smaller 2 footed ones. Ever noticed that before the empire does anything on the ground a fleet of star destroyers are in space?
So it isn't a literal battleship, if you think about it. The galatic empire engineers could have chosen to have the same hull, get rid of the large cargo/troop/fighter bays and opt for larger reactors or ammo storage to power 8 large main cannons able to blast equally impressive holes in the largest of ships.
Furthermore for big ship on other big ship combat it makes more sense to have the largest caliber guns, for piercing shields or armor. Use a pea shooter that is normally used for swating flies and its just going to bounce.
Just seroulsy look at real battleships, the 'main' guns are decently sized. not all guns are but those are secondary weapons and doorstops, not to be confused with main armament (secondary weapons eve does not really deal with save rockets, only main guns are counted with a hard limit of 8).
Not only does having decently sized guns on a ship make it look cooler. It adds a bit of realism. Furtherpoint the presence of other things out of scale is only a further sign that more things should defiantly be fixed in that department.
On the same subject frig guns should maybe be reduced in size (though personally I think while maybe a bit too large are still more in scale then others for being main weapons). And defiantly carriers should be five times larger then they are currently (so 5 times larger then a battleship), and super carriers should be 10 times as massive as a regular carrier.
Star destroyer isn't a battleship? What battleships does the Empire use then?... wait... I'm not going to let you draw me into a fictitious sci-fi argument that will end up in a star destroyer vs enterprise debate. The point is that you only get ridiculous sized (proportionally) guns in Japanese anime. Your real life example doesn't apply because you Eve cruisers are bigger than the USS IOWA.
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Kaelie Onren
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Posted - 2011.07.27 05:32:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Can you see the turrets on a star destroyer? No, and so it should be.
Actually...yes you can.
Your just not looking in the right spots.
: O P
EXACTLY my point.
You can't see them without LOOKING for them, (with a microscope). As it should be.
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Rushnik
Anhalter's Minions
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Posted - 2011.07.27 15:25:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
EXACTLY my point.
You can't see them without LOOKING for them, (with a microscope). As it should be.
Star Destroyer suck. End of Discussion.
OT:
I fully approve this idea. And this.
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DeftCrow Redriver
Best Path Inc. Cascade Imminent
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Posted - 2011.07.27 19:40:00 -
[24]
Battleship turrets look like they're at the correct scale on cruisers or battle cruisers. So supported. -----------------------------------------------
Originally by: CCP Zulu It is CCPæs plan that the Noble Exchange (NeX store) will be used for the sale of vanity items only.
...... We'll see. |
Sephiroth CloneIIV
Vitriol Ventures BLACK-MARK
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Posted - 2011.07.27 20:32:00 -
[25]
speaking of the yamato and iowa.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Yamato1945.png
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:BB61_USS_Iowa_BB61_broadside_USN.jpg
notice the 3 large gun battery's, those are main armament. The smaller things are pea-shooters or fly swatters used for shooting planes, boats or other small targets. You don't use the smaller ones on other battleships or cruisers, unless you want to knock on their door to announce your presence.
Having sensibly sized guns simply looks better and serves functional purpose.
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Rushnik
Minmatar Anhalter's Minions
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Posted - 2011.07.27 22:00:00 -
[26]
Originally by: DeftCrow Redriver Battleship turrets look like they're at the correct scale on cruisers or battle cruisers. So supported.
Do you have pictures? It would help to gather referenzes to the issue. Maybe someone can edit a comparision picture between the ship classes.
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Nariya Kentaya
Coalition Of Gentlemen.
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Posted - 2011.07.28 01:09:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Originally by: Drake Draconis
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Can you see the turrets on a star destroyer? No, and so it should be.
Actually...yes you can.
Your just not looking in the right spots.
: O P
EXACTLY my point.
You can't see them without LOOKING for them, (with a microscope). As it should be.
the imperial star destroyer is a carrier strictly used to enforce imperial law in an area.
theyre guns are NOT small, just theyre TURBO laser banks, the big ones, are mounted on the SIDES because they are most often employed in broadsides, episode 4 (or a new hope, depending on how old of a fan you are) the laser that were shooting at the tantive 4 (a cruiser more or less) were regular laser cannons that are mounted all over the destroyer for small-ship engagement, if the ISD had used its main cannons the tantive 4 would have been ripped in half.
also, going to the point of size, the "battleships" employed by the empire would be more along the lines of victory-class cruisers, which are about one fifth the size of a ISD but covered in turbo-lasers, and the acclamator class, slightly smaller and used as a light-battleship to suport the victory-class. so yeah, battleship guns need to be bigger, and carriers should be larger.
IN ARGUEMENT to your original arguement, the battleship Iowa has big guns for killing big ships (and bombarding entire enemy fleets, and the bigger a ship is, the bigger its guns HAVE TO BE in order to counter other ships of the same weight class, in other words, a decent battleship cannon (whether laser or artillery or wahtnot) should look as if it would have the ability to rip a smaller ship in half without effort (not saying it SHOULD be able to, just as far as appearance wise, because lets face it, shields and armor can do funny things)
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Kaelie Onren
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Posted - 2011.07.28 01:55:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 28/07/2011 01:59:08
Originally by: Nariya Kentaya Sci-fi fiction argument
Not biting here. You have an impressive knowledge about SW lore, which means you have an impressive collection of SW fan literature. Congrats.
(so 200 turbolasers* on a ISD and still a "carrier"? Hmm, I think that the Lucasarts games created to date** would disagree with you)
But fiction justifications*** aside, do you actually have any REAL numbers on the sizes of the turbolasers? I would have thought that this would be the most obvious argument you can use. Ok, let me google that for you, and end your argument with a picture.
Gee, looks about the same (tiny) sizes as EVE ships huh. Funny that.
* model specs ** Star Wars Empire at War, Star Wars Rebellion, to name 2 that I know. Victory Class, Acclimator Class are just inferior ISDs in every way (according to fictional specs). *** Unless you speak for LucasArts/Lucasfilms, you should not be commenting on what you think the roles of SW ships are, or their design methodologies, or their functions. Going down this path will turn this debate into a lore vs lore discussion, which should be left in the realm of SW geeks, as they rarely result in any meaningful conclusions.
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Nariya Kentaya
Coalition Of Gentlemen.
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Posted - 2011.07.28 04:38:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Kaelie Onren Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 28/07/2011 02:04:19
Originally by: Nariya Kentaya Sci-fi fiction argument
Not biting here. You have an impressive knowledge about SW lore, which means you have an impressive collection of SW fan literature. Congrats.
(so 200 turbolasers* on a ISD and still a "carrier"? Hmm, I think that the Lucasarts games created to date** would disagree with you)
But fiction justifications*** aside, do you actually have any REAL numbers on the sizes of the turbolasers? I would have thought that this would be the most obvious argument you can use. Ok, let me google that for you, and end your argument with a picture.
Gee, looks about the same (tiny) sizes as EVE ships huh. Funny that.
* According to THESEmodel specs, why the stress? Because SW lore is full of inconsitencies often which stir up a lot of fan debates. Non of which is our primary concern here, so don't use these for any basis of argument, just illustrating how futile a fictional lore argument can be. ** Star Wars Empire at War, Star Wars Rebellion, to name 2 that I know. Victory Class, Acclimator Class are just inferior ISDs in every way (according to fictional specs). *** Unless you speak for LucasArts/Lucasfilms, you should not be commenting on what you think the roles of SW ships are, or their design methodologies, or their functions. Going down this path will turn this debate into a lore vs lore discussion, which should be left in the realm of SW geeks, as they rarely result in any meaningful conclusions.
first off, the link is just them trying to use the type of special effects used in the movie to CREATE ideas about the lasers, AND you cut out half my arguement, and that is, that in RL, cannons on a ship are designed to defeat other ships of specific weight classes, as in, a US navy destroyers little artillery piece would take for-frakkin ever to do seveere structural damage to a battleship (unless you get a lucky shot off at at either fuel or ammunition storage), while a battleships cannons are designed to take out anything they can hit.
my whole point is that small cannons, regardless of the size of the ship they are equipped to, can only take down targets of an appropriate weight class, and considering that on a ship the size of a, lets say, abbadon, armor plating on a ship that size, just to ensure structural integrity, would be prettyd amn thick, meaning only REALLY BIG ASS guns would be able to punch a significant hole in it, so it just doesnt look right that battleship cannons are that small. the cannons, at the size they are at now, look like they could at most punch a couple tiny holes in another battleship, which doesnt even seem threatening, realistically, a gun that would do significant damage to an abbadon or appriopriate weight-classs ship would ahve to be massive, same with capital ships. theres a reason why battleships had the 4 (or 5, depending on what style battleship your talking about) had those huge artyillery cannons on them, while destroyers even today only have a couple single-barrel, artillery turrets.
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Kaelie Onren
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Posted - 2011.07.28 05:09:00 -
[30]
Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 28/07/2011 05:12:23
Originally by: Nariya Kentaya AND you cut out half my arguement,
Because your argement is silly. You are using Real Life logic to try to justify things in a science fiction genre. Essentially you are saying to all the film makers and Sci-fi creators of the world that their artistic decision isn't practical*. (exception being the Anime genre, which I have previously pointed out)
Well, the reason I refuse to engage you on this 'fiction argument' is because it can lead to no where. If you want to argue real life ships, then do so on another (non-EVE) forum, if you want to argue SW physics then as long as you stay within Lucasarts fictional canon of laws then we can discuss that, but it is a fallacy to make arguments that span fictional universes and/or reality to justify propositions in others.
(and besides your reality argument doesn't even hold water in the SW universe. ISDs and SW capital ships all have proportionally small turrets and they do in fact shoot each other to pieces, as anybody who has seen any SW movies can attest to.)
EDIT * And who are you to decide what is 'practical'? This is science fiction, not science fact.
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Rushnik
Anhalter's Minions
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Posted - 2011.07.28 05:29:00 -
[31]
Can we now move on without Star Wars?
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Bl00dyAngel
Caldari The X-Trading Company RAZOR Alliance
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Posted - 2011.07.28 08:29:00 -
[32]
No, we can't.
Fakt ist that a Stardestroyer (Empire Class) is armed with: 60 Turbo Lazors, 60 Ion Cannonz and all the Tie Fighters.
My Battleship only got 16 Guns. So they have to be big!
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Rushnik
Minmatar Anhalter's Minions
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Posted - 2011.07.28 16:13:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Bl00dyAngel No, we can't.
Fakt ist that a Stardestroyer (Empire Class) is armed with: 60 Turbo Lazors, 60 Ion Cannonz and all the Tie Fighters.
My Battleship only got 16 Guns. So they have to be big!
Oh, you should have imo big guns on your battleship, but never reason with Star Wars (in any form) in EVE ever.
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Valor D'eglise
Gallente Red Cross Of Gallente Federation
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Posted - 2011.07.28 18:31:00 -
[34]
I think turrets are in scale to the ship when compared to their caliber. So I don't support any rescaling without a changing the caliber OR rescaling the ships themselves. With the new Mauler being the first (and thus at the moment the only) ship that is in scale, CCP indirectly admitted that current ship models are not in scale, whereas I feel like the turrets could be. When measuring and calculating the relations some are too big, some are too small, however overall turret scale seems to be believable... The 800m autocannon is 14m long. On a 1000m long mach this is just 1,4% of the ships length. The problem is not the cannons being too small, it's rather a mismatch between shipsize and caliber, as the turrets are in scale (more or less). If you just make the canons bigger it breaks the scale, the muzzle of a 1200mm artie is supposed to be 1,2m in diameter - not 12m or 120m even.
I will support this, if you add the demand to rework the calibers to stay in scale with the bigger turrets and the (future?) ship sizes.
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Rushnik
Minmatar Anhalter's Minions
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Posted - 2011.07.28 22:33:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Valor D'eglise words
Oh I already made the shipsize caliber comparison showing the scale is used from real life naval BS'.
Originally by: Rushnik
The Bismarck was 251m long and had 8 x 380mm. The Hurricane is 492m long (if thats right ... wth) and those are supposed to be 720mm.
Its from this thread.
Comparing pictures of the Bismarck and the Hurricane with 720mm will show you that the turrets are not in scale as intended, because they are supposed to look BIGGER.
Can you accept this explanation?
I admit that all that talk is difficult without having something like the "International Prototype Meter" in EVE.
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Kaelie Onren
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Posted - 2011.07.29 05:11:00 -
[36]
Originally by: Rushnik
Originally by: Valor D'eglise words
Oh I already made the shipsize caliber comparison showing the scale is used from real life naval BS'.
Originally by: Rushnik
The Bismarck was 251m long and had 8 x 380mm. The Hurricane is 492m long (if thats right ... wth) and those are supposed to be 720mm.
Its from this thread.
Comparing pictures of the Bismarck and the Hurricane with 720mm will show you that the turrets are not in scale as intended, because they are supposed to look BIGGER.
Can you accept this explanation?
I admit that all that talk is difficult without having something like the "International Prototype Meter" in EVE.
Then I believe the problem is not that the turrets are incorrectly scaled, but its the ships that are incorrectly scaled? I mean, I can be 2500m away from a can, and it sure doesn't look like it can fit 5 hurricanes in between me and the can. The scaling is just bungled.
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Rushnik
Minmatar Anhalter's Minions
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Posted - 2011.07.29 12:20:00 -
[37]
So we now have a rough understanding of the scaling in EVE. Its messed up not only in the guns department.
We dont know how CCP measure scale in the game. I'd sure like to know, because commenting on this topic gets hard as it goes into a vague direction.
This topic needs more clarification on what is all to be fixed. Some kind of conclusion imo.
I have some ideas, but no time right now. I'll maybe write something down in the next few days.
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Photon Ceray
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Posted - 2011.07.30 17:27:00 -
[38]
Yes
Make them big and scary! they should look intimidating and proportionate to the ship size. Frigs look more intimidating up close than cruisers and BS because of the size of the guns. Same like in real life, bigger gun vs small tiny gun.
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Pattern Clarc
Aperture Harmonics K162
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Posted - 2011.08.03 11:22:00 -
[39]
People need only look at dreads to realise all there previous arguments about scaling are meaningless. ____ New Ships Wishlist |
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