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Altai Saker
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Posted - 2005.02.28 07:22:00 -
[181]
Edited by: Altai Saker on 28/02/2005 07:22:19 http://bdci.killboard.net/?p=details&id=2995 2 frick are involved in that kill and did not lay the final blow.
So you are allowed to have your allies kills count, but not their losses? Just clarifying.
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Toohot
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Posted - 2005.02.28 07:23:00 -
[182]
so i guessing we have to come back down to paragon soul and teach you guys one more lesson we gave you a break to go back miner to make us isk when we kill you and this is what we get a when we don't smack talk rome/ unknown she corp/ burn eden/ Smite will pawn you all enemey of my enemy = friends
BAD BaD MAN
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Joshua Calvert
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Posted - 2005.02.28 08:49:00 -
[183]
Oh no, it's turned into a "We have killed X ships, you're getting pwnz0red!!!111111.2!!" thread.
Lock imminent.
LEEEEERRRRRRRRRRROOOOOOOOOYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY! |
Marichek
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Posted - 2005.02.28 08:57:00 -
[184]
omfg all threads relating to this crap are turning into ****ing contests!
work and school are kicking my ass, so reading the forums and keeping up with killboards is really how i'm getting all the info about this and its just plain retarted!!!
good work mercs, you're killing a lot more FoE than we're killing of yours. not really a surprise given your tactics and tight-knit group of pilots vs. our 1300+ members. this is the way things are, and should not be a surprise to ANYONE!
can we let this thread die now?
DannyThe Great > i have an urge to kill anyone who isnt in my corp and has a smaller ship. |
Latex Mistress
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Posted - 2005.02.28 08:59:00 -
[185]
Edited by: Latex Mistress on 28/02/2005 09:02:47
Originally by: Altai Saker So you are allowed to have your allies kills count, but not their losses? Just clarifying.
You make a good point. However, I believe it falls like this:
If a Coalition member is part of a kill, it gets posted. If a Coalition member is part of a loss, it gets posted.
We are the Mercinary Coalition, we post our losses, and post our kills. Xetic/SE/FA/BoB/whoever's losses don't really belong on our boards. Hope this clears things up.
[EDIT: I think it is unrealistic to *not* post a kill just because you were unlucky enough to not land the final blow]
If ECM is an act of aggression, why am I not on kill mails?
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Seleene
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Posted - 2005.02.28 09:09:00 -
[186]
Edited by: Seleene on 28/02/2005 09:11:36
Originally by: Marichek omfg all threads relating to this crap are turning into ****ing contests!
work and school are kicking my ass, so reading the forums and keeping up with killboards is really how i'm getting all the info about this and its just plain retarted!!!
good work mercs, you're killing a lot more FoE than we're killing of yours. not really a surprise given your tactics and tight-knit group of pilots vs. our 1300+ members. this is the way things are, and should not be a surprise to ANYONE!
can we let this thread die now?
I could post up more links backing up any number of statistics about who and how many of what target we are killing, but that's pointless. That information is public on our kill board to anyone who wishes to expose themselves to it.
Respect, Marichek, for speaking plainly and attempting to end this nonsense.
I would only like to clarify one thing: We of the Coalition do not have allies. We have clients. Do not for one minute think that Coalition pilots have a care about the political agendas of the various powers represented in this thread. We're being paid to attack you and that's what we are doing. If you don't like us shooting at you, contact myself or one of the other Coalition CEOs and make us an offer to shoot at someone else. -
T2 Weapons Testing in progress! Volunteer today! |
Marichek
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Posted - 2005.02.28 09:30:00 -
[187]
Edited by: Marichek on 28/02/2005 09:30:15
Originally by: Seleene Edited by: Seleene on 28/02/2005 09:11:36
Originally by: Marichek omfg all threads relating to this crap are turning into ****ing contests!
work and school are kicking my ass, so reading the forums and keeping up with killboards is really how i'm getting all the info about this and its just plain retarted!!!
good work mercs, you're killing a lot more FoE than we're killing of yours. not really a surprise given your tactics and tight-knit group of pilots vs. our 1300+ members. this is the way things are, and should not be a surprise to ANYONE!
can we let this thread die now?
I could post up more links backing up any number of statistics about who and how many of what target we are killing, but that's pointless. That information is public on our kill board to anyone who wishes to expose themselves to it.
Respect, Marichek, for speaking plainly and attempting to end this nonsense.
I would only like to clarify one thing: We of the Coalition do not have allies. We have clients. Do not for one minute think that Coalition pilots have a care about the political agendas of the various powers represented in this thread. We're being paid to attack you and that's what we are doing. If you don't like us shooting at you, contact myself or one of the other Coalition CEOs and make us an offer to shoot at someone else.
Very well said Seleene, and thank you.
I'm glad to see that you've not lost focus on the role of your coalition plays in the game, because this thread has completely diminished it.
We take losses, you take losses, and that is no different than any other time in EvE (admitedly, losses in non 0.0 is much higher than normal for us, hehe).
However, please don't make the mistake of thinking that we do not like the wars.
Morale is high, and many are saying this is the most fun they've had in eve ... ever.
Hopefully, we can focus on that and in the future keep threads of this nature clean and friendly.
Everyone agree?
~Mari ~Diplomatic Ambassador (for tonight)
edit: stupid spelling errors cuz i'm tired
DannyThe Great > i have an urge to kill anyone who isnt in my corp and has a smaller ship. |
Logan Xerxes
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Posted - 2005.02.28 09:54:00 -
[188]
Originally by: MadGaz Edited by: MadGaz on 26/02/2005 16:34:41 I shall not smack, I shall not smack (repeats x10) Ok lets have some fun \o/
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! Im gonna hafta kill madgaz! oh the horror
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Bobbeh
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Posted - 2005.02.28 10:28:00 -
[189]
I really hate the constant arguing relating to who killed who. It is so annoying!!!!!
It is much easier to get a higher kills-loss ratio against a force bigger than yours. Obviously the mercenary coalition wouldnt get such a good result if they faced us 250 vs 1400 in one big battle. They can pick their fights, and thanks to safe-spots/logging off/pilots in space fighting versus a large force is relatively easy. You see this with the direct results of the mercs vs FoE and likewise you can see it with FoE vs Xetic/SE.
So, the mercs are good at the role they are required to play. Also, FoE as a whole are doing pretty well in the whole alliance sized fleet battle scene.
Oh, and btw: I believe that if you are working with other forces in a kill, ie Mercs/Xetic/SE, it should not be posted on the killboards. If there was a fleet battle Xetic/SE/Mercs vs FoE you should both post kills and losses for the entire force on your killboard. Thats pretty hard to do i expect.
Mimiru > It'd be a tie, the monkies nerfed pooflinger wouldnt have enough tracking to hit the parrot orbiting him, but the parrot's beak is so small it couldnt break the monkey's fur tanking. |
Katya Detia
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Posted - 2005.02.28 11:00:00 -
[190]
Nice
Gl to both sides. ---------------------------
CEO: Black Sea Industries
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Eleese
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Posted - 2005.02.28 11:04:00 -
[191]
Tbo we dont actually gang in same fleet as xetic very often. Like the first big fleet battle at ded station in obe. we were in a frig group and just picked of targets during the battle but werent with xetic. they r on couple of kill mails purely because they got couple of shots of. im not saying this is the same for all kill mails but to show how difficult it would be in chosing which kill mails get posted which dont.
We dont enjoy alliance fleets hence why most of us joined merc corps. The whole 80 people on ts and disorganised fleet which is similar in every alliance just gets to stressful and spoils the enjoyment.
Although you say our fighting style will favour us.. that is true but we certainly cant do as much damage as is possible because we lack numbers to hit the mighty obe blob. we see lots of foe battleships but just dont have the numbers to combat it.
talking numbers is pointless tbo we have more kills and less loses who really gives a **** were having fun... your having fun ... is there anything else that matters?
i sure as hell dont pay 15 bucks a month to not enjoy the game. |
Seleene
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Posted - 2005.02.28 11:20:00 -
[192]
Edited by: Seleene on 28/02/2005 11:21:40
Originally by: Bobbeh It is much easier to get a higher kills-loss ratio against a force bigger than yours. Obviously the mercenary coalition wouldnt get such a good result if they faced us 250 vs 1400 in one big battle.
But that will never happen, nor will 200+ Evol / ATUK face off against 2500 FA. Such an argument is rather pointless, yes?
Quote: They can pick their fights, and thanks to safe-spots/logging off/pilots in space fighting versus a large force is relatively easy.
Provide me proof of one of my pilots logging off and they will be booted from my corp. As for the safe spot comment, yes we use safe spots. So does every single PvP entity in this game.
As for the fighting being easy, nothing is easy when fighting an alliance war for us. The only reason we are good at it is because we put a lot of work into planning and tactics instead of just hitting the 'undock' button and roaming around trying to gank the random hauler.
Quote: Oh, and btw: I believe that if you are working with other forces in a kill, ie Mercs/Xetic/SE, it should not be posted on the killboards. If there was a fleet battle Xetic/SE/Mercs vs FoE you should both post kills and losses for the entire force on your killboard. Thats pretty hard to do i expect.
We have two rules:
1.) If we participate in a kill against a war target, it gets posted. 2.) If we lose a ship to a war target, it gets posted.
Kills and losses on our board are usually posted within minutes of them happening. Rarely will you see a kill/loss posted even a day late. AFAIK, every Coalition pilot has a PW to post his kills/losses. It is the responsibility of the Coalition CEO's to make sure that our board is as accurate as possible.
We don't care what losses non-Coalition pilots take. Their fight is not ours. Our kill board is represenative of what is happening to and with Coalition pilots. We do not clutter up our kill board with needless alliance politics. With all respect, get and pay to maintain your own kill board for that. -
T2 Weapons Testing in progress! Volunteer today! |
Jin Entres
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Posted - 2005.02.28 11:34:00 -
[193]
Edited by: Jin Entres on 28/02/2005 11:36:26
Originally by: Bobbeh
It is much easier to get a higher kills-loss ratio against a force bigger than yours. Obviously the mercenary coalition wouldnt get such a good result if they faced us 250 vs 1400 in one big battle.
This is called Guerilla Warfare and we are not knights in shining armor, riding to settle everything in one big massacre. That would be stupid. We merely fight the most efficient way. Even if there are a lot more of you, you could still try to outsmart us and take the advantage of the numbers - not just in one blob.
Originally by: Bobbeh
They can pick their fights, and thanks to safe-spots/logging off/pilots in space fighting versus a large force is relatively easy.
True, fighting a large unorganized force such as an alliance is possible with proper tactics. However, I would like to point out that we do not take advantage of metagame tactics such as logging off.
Originally by: Bobbeh
Oh, and btw: I believe that if you are working with other forces in a kill, ie Mercs/Xetic/SE, it should not be posted on the killboards. If there was a fleet battle Xetic/SE/Mercs vs FoE you should both post kills and losses for the entire force on your killboard. Thats pretty hard to do i expect.
Our killboards include only, and all of the kills and losses of members of The Mercenary Coalition. I see no reason why it should include anything else, and why a kill/loss fought alongside other corporations should not be valid. And be reminded that they are a minority.
I think we've had a good time fighting FoE. Let's keep it that way, and not get swallowed by pointless arguing!
"Don't sweat the petty things, and don't pet the sweaty things"
-Jin
Edit: Sel, looks like you beat me to it
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Liet Traep
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Posted - 2005.02.28 11:44:00 -
[194]
Originally by: CYVOK
Originally by: Zen Later
S
11) CYVOK just likes the look of his sig on the forums so he made a useless post!
Dude that's a seriously nice sig. Where does a budding forum ***** go to get one of those?
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Bobbeh
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Posted - 2005.02.28 12:24:00 -
[195]
Bloomin heck you two. I really wasnt trying to cause any arguement at all. To be honest, i would have thought you would agree with what i said. Using safe spots and having pilots in space favours the smaller force. I meant being able to log off in space, not logging during a fight. If you with your 5 man squad had to dock at a station before logging off you would have a much harder time. Mimiru > It'd be a tie, the monkies nerfed pooflinger wouldnt have enough tracking to hit the parrot orbiting him, but the parrot's beak is so small it couldnt break the monkey's fur tanking. |
Bobbeh
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Posted - 2005.02.28 13:01:00 -
[196]
Ok, I will expand on what my last post was trying to say.
Eleese: If your not getting shot at by Xetic, you are in the same grid as Xetic and you are firing at the same people as Xetic I have to tell you that you are one force in everyone elseÆs eyes. Whether you choose to communicate with each other is your choice. Let me just show you with numbers what I mean:
Xetic/SE/mercenaries VS FoE
Xetic have 5 BS and 2 frigates in the fight, SE have 3 BS and 3 frigates in the fight, Merc have 2 BS and 5 frigates in the fight,
FoE have 10 BS and 10 frigates in the fight.
Overall result- FoE kills 6 battleships and 5 frigates Other force kills 5 battleships and 5 frigates.
The mercenaries lose 1 BS but take part in killing all 5, On your killboards it would be a victory when it in actual fact it was not. All I suggested was that if possible any major battles where you worked together with Xetic/SE you post all kills/losses.
You also say that if you had larger numbers you would do better than you are doing. Yes, you would probably get more kills but I would also think that you would be participating in larger and certainly more even battles. In that case, your kills-loss ratio would drop.
Seleene: I was pointing out that you have not got your, to be honest, decent ratio simply by being uber once a battle has begun. Just making sure people did not think this was the case.
I answered the stuff about the safespots etc. in my original reply.
ôAs for the fighting being easyà.ö I think a war against a larger alliance is easy to be honest and I think most of the FoE guys have realized this from the beginning of the war with Xetic. When I was with zincol and company in their mercenary-like corporation we just roamed around the whole time ganking alliance members. I must admit it might be harder for you because our entire alliance is situated around Obe and getting kills unnoticed might prove more difficult.
I respect that your kill-board should be as you want but if this is the case please donÆt use it to prove numbers. I think what I said originally is perfectly valid. I also believe that Xetic and SEÆs fight is yours, you both have the same enemy and you both appear to be trying to achieve the same thing: kill FoE. I am sorry but when you work together you are recognised as one force.
Jim: I was saying that these ôguerrillaö tactics are what you do well by showing that had you had been in a fight representative of the size of each force you would not have such a good kill to loss ratio.
Bobby
Mimiru > It'd be a tie, the monkies nerfed pooflinger wouldnt have enough tracking to hit the parrot orbiting him, but the parrot's beak is so small it couldnt break the monkey's fur tanking. |
Balistic Void
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Posted - 2005.02.28 13:34:00 -
[197]
Eleese: "talking numbers is pointless tbo we have more kills and less loses who really gives a **** were having fun.".
We can say exactly the same thing. The universe does not revolve around your merc corps.
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Balistic Void
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Posted - 2005.02.28 13:53:00 -
[198]
Also, the way you Mercs present your tallies is total bull. How many HACs have you lost? They are worth multiple tier2 bs in ISK loss. And the guy pointing out that FE has the most losses on the bdci killboard also forgot to point out that we also have the most kills. And further examination of the figures reveals that our bs losses are minimal. The figures can be spun any way you like. I stand by my original statement of 39 bs kills this weekend. You blobbed up with XF/SE to attack us - now you whine about us including their kills. Pure hypocrisy. Can one of you please present the total FoE bs kills for the 25th/26th/27th?
Oh - and regarding killboards: I still regard the open eve-kills.com as a more transparent representation than the mercs closed killboard. Eve-kills.com is a level playing field, favouring noone.
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Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.02.28 14:26:00 -
[199]
Originally by: Balistic Void Eleese: "talking numbers is pointless tbo we have more kills and less loses who really gives a **** were having fun.".
We can say exactly the same thing. The universe does not revolve around your merc corps.
The point is that the original poster I responed to said that the the merc corps were taking heavy losses. This is patently untrue.
I don't doubt that XETIC/SE are taking losses, but that isn't really our concern. ----------------------------------------
Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.02.28 14:27:00 -
[200]
Originally by: Balistic Void
Oh - and regarding killboards: I still regard the open eve-kills.com as a more transparent representation than the mercs closed killboard. Eve-kills.com is a level playing field, favouring noone.
Eve-kills.com is certainly not a level playing field, as we do not post any of our kills or losses there. ----------------------------------------
Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
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Latex Mistress
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Posted - 2005.02.28 14:35:00 -
[201]
Bobbeh: respect. You're a credit to your corp and a worthy read. Level-headed posts are too rare on the forums these days.
Balistic: give it a rest, eh?
It's been said twice in this thread already, but obviously bears repeating:
If a Coalition member is part of a kill, it gets posted. If a Coalition member is part of a loss, it gets posted.
Now, this thread is seriously hijacked, so if you want to argue the intricacies of how to run a killboard, feel free to do so elsewhere. Any objective look at the situation I think will show that the aforementioned "rules" are about the only way to run things. Sorry if you think if favors anyone, but that's just not the case.
The idea that we're going to put a Xetic frig on our loss board just because he happened to be in system (or even engaged before/after we were fighting) is just nuts. If a Coalition member is not on either side of the killmail, it's not on our board, period. Don't quite understand how it could work any other way, but... flame on if you must.
If ECM is an act of aggression, why am I not on kill mails?
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Seleene
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Posted - 2005.02.28 14:47:00 -
[202]
Edited by: Seleene on 28/02/2005 14:55:23
Bobbeh, I appreciate what you are saying, so i will take the time to clarify a few things:
Originally by: Bobbeh Ok, I will expand on what my last post was trying to say.
The mercenaries lose 1 BS but take part in killing all 5, On your killboards it would be a victory when it in actual fact it was not. All I suggested was that if possible any major battles where you worked together with Xetic/SE you post all kills/losses.
Such a thing would be quite impossible regardless, but allow me to explain further: if you do a detailed analysis of the kills on our kill board, you will find that until this past Saturday and Sunday, a bare minimum of the kills there have anything other than a Coalition pilot. At least 95-98% of the kills against FoE have been made with no assistance from any of the various factions attacking you.
Quote: I respect that your kill-board should be as you want but if this is the case please donÆt use it to prove numbers. I think what I said originally is perfectly valid. I also believe that Xetic and SEÆs fight is yours, you both have the same enemy and you both appear to be trying to achieve the same thing: kill FoE. I am sorry but when you work together you are recognised as one force.
I see your point of view and you are entitled to it, but it is not ours. When my people stay in a seperate gang, on a seperate TS, call our own targets and move independantly of XETIC/SE forces, we tend to think of ourselves as our own entity. I refer you to my earlier statement where the vast majority of our kills (and losses) against FoE have been in the complete absence of any other military force.
Respect to you, Bobbeh, for making such an intelligent post, but I assure you we are not unduly "inflating our kills" due to outside influences. We honestly have no need to. |
Techie Zero
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Posted - 2005.02.28 14:59:00 -
[203]
Originally by: Trooper B99 Ah, some old enemies come together again for some nice war.
Have fun everyone.
This was a year and 1/2 time in waiting for me. Old enemies...indeed. EVE-I.com~THE Info source |
Balistic Void
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Posted - 2005.02.28 15:06:00 -
[204]
Julien - my point about eve-kills is that you guys are free to use it. We however are NOT free to use your killboard. Hence eve-kills is fairer IMO.
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Balistic Void
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Posted - 2005.02.28 15:07:00 -
[205]
Latex - give it a rest. This thread is about SE vs FoE: look at the title.
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Techie Zero
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Posted - 2005.02.28 15:07:00 -
[206]
Originally by: HavokTBP lol this is funnier then the lol thread.
I do love how foyle said that "her guys" are going to have fun though because we all know she's not going to be out there
Is she supposed to be? EVE-I.com~THE Info source |
Oohwha Schipperman
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Posted - 2005.02.28 15:08:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Julien Derida
Originally by: Balistic Void
Oh - and regarding killboards: I still regard the open eve-kills.com as a more transparent representation than the mercs closed killboard. Eve-kills.com is a level playing field, favouring noone.
Eve-kills.com is certainly not a level playing field, as we do not post any of our kills or losses there.
It most certainly is a level playing field. That you have chosen not to play on it in no way affects its intrinsic fairness.
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Julien Derida
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Posted - 2005.02.28 15:09:00 -
[208]
Edited by: Julien Derida on 28/02/2005 15:11:09 Just to clarify things. I thought I'd tally up how many of the kills against FOE that are listed on our killboard involve a XETIC/SE pilot.
The final count was 15 out of 749. That is a massive 2%.
I maintain that our killboard is a perfectly fair representation of the conflict between the Mercenary Coalition and FOE. ----------------------------------------
Artistic Director & Chief Diplomat - FRICK |
Balistic Void
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Posted - 2005.02.28 15:12:00 -
[209]
Julien - so what? Does that mean we DIDN'T kill 39 bs? You mercs are a mere distraction - we are more concerned with the huge blobs SE and XF are sending at us (trying to clog our guns with wreckage).
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Balistic Void
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Posted - 2005.02.28 15:16:00 -
[210]
Oh, and I would really like you guys to present a fairer picture on your killboard. I don't mean to flame here - this is meant as constructive criticism.
Example: Tier2 BS counts as 100 million isk - reduce this to 30 million (insurance loss).
Counter-Example: Inty's count as 2million isk - bump this UP to at least 7 million (avg).
Also, HAC's are a big loss - worth about 60-80 million? I'm unsure, maybe someone else can suggest a fair value. Also these figures don't take mods into account. Guys, this shouldn't be a big deal to fix since you are just changing hardcoded constants in the software.
If you make these changes you will STILL be ahead of us. I'm not trying to steal your thunder. But the picture won't look as rosy....
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