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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Titss McGee
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Posted - 2011.08.07 08:50:00 -
[1]
Would this not solve most of the bickering on SiSi?
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w1ndowmaker
Gallente Aliastra
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Posted - 2011.08.07 08:53:00 -
[2]
Oops, posted this on the wrong account. Anyway - I would love to undock from 6C and see this thing just below it. It would be interesting to hear the pros/cons of something like this.
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fab24
Gallente Tax Fraud Corporation
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Posted - 2011.08.07 11:11:00 -
[3]
Capitals can't take gates.
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Flying Apocalypse
Amarr Fracture.
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Posted - 2011.08.07 13:34:00 -
[4]
perfect! no more damn carriers and supers \o/ and make an ffa for the capital to than(just a beacon)
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Jack Tronic
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Posted - 2011.08.07 16:27:00 -
[5]
Originally by: fab24 Capitals can't take gates.
Capitals can use acceleration gate if the gate is set to allow them unlike star gates.
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Marcus Sin
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2011.08.07 19:44:00 -
[6]
The problem then becomes camping the Warp Gate drop off. As it stands, you can warp at distance to the beacon from several different angles, which creates at least some layers in beginning engagement ranges.
Once you're there, you can of course make a Warp In bookmark (or 10) to give you some breathing room upon landing. But IIRC, that doesn't work for Warp Gate areas. I could be wrong on that one-- it's been over 3 years since I've messed with it.
But you WILL still have a ton of goobers in a Fleet, with fighters, sitting around in FFA's staring at each other until a single person actually trying to test their ship warps in. Only now, you've given them an extremely easy way to blob the new ship the instant it lands.
Good notion of course, but the realities of it are still problematic. IMO, if you go back to the old rules and enforce them as best as possible, but extend all bans/lock outs to TQ (they're EULA violations, after all), you'd see things cleaned up in a hurry.
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CCP Konflikt
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Posted - 2011.08.08 14:03:00 -
[7]
Content (such as the gates) shouldnt be authored for singularity, because in the same time we could make a dungeon or mission for TQ where over 45000+ players can use a dungeon daily instead of 100-200 players on sisi using a few jump gates.
Fighting would happen at the gates. Interdiction would mean that you wouldn't have a choice about it if someone wanted to do that while a Bughunter or QA Tester isn't on singularity. This reduces the value of this idea.
We'd have to change the sisi rules to support it, the current ethos is less rules, so QA testers spend more time testing and less time supporting the "Eve Arcade Mode" of sisi. This means Eve is a better game instead of sisi is a better arcade mode.
The problem I see with Singularity is that people go to play "Eve arcade mode" and admittedly the idea that players can self police is possible but difficult in the current implementation, because everyone has their own set of skill points meaning not everyone has a capital ship or has a ship larger than the ship that just killed them, when that ship is not "suggested" ship for the beacon.
I do see the frustration of the "arcade mode" crowd and while many of them are not directly contributing to reporting problems, they are generating load and logs and these are indirectly useful to QA testers.
We will look into this a little more and see if there is a need to adjust anything, but this won't change quickly, people are still on holiday and we need time to consider the changes (if we make them).
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Titss McGee
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Posted - 2011.08.08 21:07:00 -
[8]
Some very valid arguments between the last two posts, thanks for bringing them to light. The term "arcade mode" for SiSi fits perfectly. I guess its a large part of the problem as well, people see it as a giant sandbox to play in rather than as a tool.
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Marcus Sin
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2011.08.08 22:40:00 -
[9]
Originally by: CCP Konflikt [The] current ethos is less rules, so QA testers spend more time testing and less time supporting the "Eve Arcade Mode" of sisi. This means Eve is a better game instead of sisi is a better arcade mode.
The problem I see with Singularity is that people go to play "Eve arcade mode" and admittedly the idea that players can self police is possible but difficult in the current implementation, because everyone has their own set of skill points meaning not everyone has a capital ship or has a ship larger than the ship that just killed them, when that ship is not "suggested" ship for the beacon.
I do see the frustration of the "arcade mode" crowd and while many of them are not directly contributing to reporting problems, they are generating load and logs and these are indirectly useful to QA testers.
While I fully understand the concept outlined in the first statement, I can't imagine that the theory actually correlates with reality. First and foremost, with fewer combat instances of scope (or in general) taking place as a result of the "fewer rules", there's simply less data being generated-- either for the logs, or for individuals creating de-bug reports. Second, I can't imagine what aspects of combat these "dedicated Bughunters" are testing by sitting in Supercaps day in and day out, staring at their buddies and performing the occasional gank.
They are however quite effective at running out people who did indeed come for "Arcade Mode", but may well have submitted a report of their own if they encountered a bug. And in terms of the myriad other elements of Eve-- the combat rules on Sisi have no bearing at all. Limiting FFA rules to suggestions doesn't effect any aspect of the game other than PvP-- and it's effectively limiting participation in that field in terms of both scope and scale.
As a counter point-- the problem I see with Singularity is that it's still being used as "Eve arcade mode", only now by a limited and organized group that make it impossible for others to do testing of their own. While said group may well completely debug Supercaps in a matter of days, that is but a tiny cross section of the PvP environment-- and comes with the cost of limiting testing in those other areas.
I won't hesitate to say that I'm there primarily to get re-acclimated with the combat mechanics, that have changed dramatically since my hiatus. I have at the same time produced a bug report in my ~10 hours on Sisi, and am trying to duplicate a couple more issues to help pin them down. I'm here to tell you that it isn't easy, with the current state of affairs.
Now I'm not behind the scenes on this, and can't make any definitive statements. But based on what I've seen, I can't imagine the people using Sisi as their personal "no risk Arcade game" are producing that much quality Debugging. They are however limiting the options of those who may, through dedicated focus or pure happenstance, offer up some bug reports of their own.
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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
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Posted - 2011.08.09 00:26:00 -
[10]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 09/08/2011 00:27:21
If the warp gates were on grid with the station... Then people can catch a ban for bubbling or camping them.
See how simple that is? And how awesome and ingenious I am?
Why not do this? I just don't know... So I guess I'll just keep playing supercarriers online, even on the test server, while CCP keeps thinking about it.
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fab24
Gallente Tax Fraud Corporation
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Posted - 2011.08.09 08:11:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 09/08/2011 00:27:21 See how simple that is? And how awesome and ingenious I am?
You're not. What if I want to test a tachy apoc? I have no other choice than warping at 0 and shooting gleam on the gang camping gate drop? The gate system would give more work to do. :CCP:
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ColdStealth
Minmatar Trixi IFI
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Posted - 2011.08.09 09:15:00 -
[12]
Originally by: fab24
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 09/08/2011 00:27:21 See how simple that is? And how awesome and ingenious I am?
You're not. What if I want to test a tachy apoc? I have no other choice than warping at 0 and shooting gleam on the gang camping gate drop? The gate system would give more work to do. :CCP:
See, Fab knows.
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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
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Posted - 2011.08.09 11:49:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 09/08/2011 11:50:19
Originally by: fab24
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 09/08/2011 00:27:21 See how simple that is? And how awesome and ingenious I am?
You're not. What if I want to test a tachy apoc? I have no other choice than warping at 0 and shooting gleam on the gang camping gate drop? The gate system would give more work to do. :CCP:
Oh yee of such little imagination...
Why can't there also be "suggested beacons" and warp gates? There is no reason why there cannot be both...
So keep on arguing on the side of stupidity if you wish, the solution is simple for all parties involved.
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Pharos Pharos
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Posted - 2011.08.09 15:23:00 -
[14]
No.
As mentioned, I don't want any Dev time being wasted on improving the 'arcade' aspects of Sisi when it could be spent on developing content for tranquility instead.
You want meaningless PvP with size restrictions, support the Arenas that almost got introduced, but for gods sake don't waste Dev time on a sisi specific solution.
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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
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Posted - 2011.08.09 22:38:00 -
[15]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 09/08/2011 22:38:01
Originally by: Pharos Pharos No.
As mentioned, I don't want any Dev time being wasted on improving the 'arcade' aspects of Sisi when it could be spent on developing content for tranquility instead.
You want meaningless PvP with size restrictions, support the Arenas that almost got introduced, but for gods sake don't waste Dev time on a sisi specific solution.
They changed the hub system, and it makes sense for there to be one station with a market and a repair facility inside instead of dividing that up between two.
They changed the rules, and it makes sense because it was taking to much of their time to enforce them...
And now, SISI is in a state where supercapitals and carriers are everywhere to the point where it is broken. ATM asking for an additional and very minor alteration is not an unreasonable request. Anyone with common sense can realize that infinite cheap Vagabonds is one thing, where as infinite cheap triage Archons is another matter entirely. Singularity is at present over run with peoples stupidity, how are we supposed to get anything done?
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LightMeUpJohnny
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Posted - 2011.08.10 00:40:00 -
[16]
ITT: Trixi and their alts shoot down valid ideas because they feel special and because they can't handle pvp that doesn't involve doomsdays and fighter-bombers, and hence, the lack of Tranquility kills for most of their "pilots".
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pygonis
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.10 06:07:00 -
[17]
Originally by: LightMeUpJohnny ITT: Trixi and their alts shoot down valid ideas because they feel special and because they can't handle pvp that doesn't involve doomsdays and fighter-bombers, and hence, the lack of Tranquility kills for most of their "pilots".
nice alt post bro
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CCP Konflikt
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Posted - 2011.08.10 10:15:00 -
[18]
Edited by: CCP Konflikt on 10/08/2011 10:15:19
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
They changed the rules, and it makes sense because it was taking to much of their time to enforce them...
Pretty much this and the Quality of Eve for it's regular ~45000+ Daily Users on TQ has increased because we're not dealing with sisi "arcade mode" blunders.
The concept of making a dungeon to solve all your problems is flawed most simply as I've already said, I never see a point in which we commit time to making content solely for sisi.
Beyond that people can bubble gates, putting the them outside station just means there would be more expectation to police the server instead of find and get bugs fixed.
The rules are your issue, not a lack of test specific content, I'm all ears if you guys have valid rule suggestions but those rules can't involve making something new just for SiSi, need to be very low maintainance and realistic. An army of volunteers to ban people is not realistic before it's suggested.
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Spookyjay
Caldari Animosity.
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Posted - 2011.08.10 15:36:00 -
[19]
The issue is the ******ed rules and ways things are done on sisi. Remove the faction ships from market. remove supers from any 1 who does not have it from mirror and don't help with new ones.
Sis has become a greifers playground the change in rules and sisi layout was to help ccp micro it less. Well do your selfs another favour and turn it back to a test server and not a consequence less pvp server
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Flying Apocalypse
Amarr Fracture.
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Posted - 2011.08.10 16:20:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Spookyjay The issue is the ******ed rules and ways things are done on sisi. Remove the faction ships from market. remove supers from any 1 who does not have it from mirror and don't help with new ones.
Sis has become a greifers playground the change in rules and sisi layout was to help ccp micro it less. Well do your selfs another favour and turn it back to a test server and not a consequence less pvp server
you lost your super? that's why you so mad?
anyway, i like the way it is now, you can do alot of stuff and if you get killed by a super, so what? ships are 100 isk... prefit 15 of them and unless you fail horribly, you won't lose all of them in 1 week...and otherwise just fleet up with some ppl, and pwn others
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Spookyjay
Caldari Animosity.
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Posted - 2011.08.10 17:41:00 -
[21]
Edited by: Spookyjay on 10/08/2011 17:41:43 O no i can't even fly a carrier. its just stupid there are people who do almost nothing but play sisi. I don't think its right is all, they can mess around there at expense of people who wana test fits and **** for tq use.
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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
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Posted - 2011.08.10 19:05:00 -
[22]
Flying Apocalypse @ U seem mad bra
Having trouble griefing on Tranq is it?
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Flying Apocalypse
Amarr Fracture.
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Posted - 2011.08.10 19:13:00 -
[23]
Originally by: Spookyjay Edited by: Spookyjay on 10/08/2011 17:41:43 O no i can't even fly a carrier. its just stupid there are people who do almost nothing but play sisi. I don't think its right is all, they can mess around there at expense of people who wana test fits and **** for tq use.
this server is not made for testing fits, its made for finding bugs ;)
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Spookyjay
Caldari Animosity.
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Posted - 2011.08.10 19:43:00 -
[24]
facts are facts. people without super have em on sisi. gank gangs roam for lols entire server is consequence less pvp a idea against EVE core design.
And now it's being abused by many who never leave the server and gank the hounest few who want to do testing of fits/bugs.
Think it's time entire server was shut down except for sanctioned times and players.
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Marcus Sin
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2011.08.10 23:16:00 -
[25]
Rules/Policy Suggestions--
Easy, "Must Haves"
1) Ban all Supercaps from non-Capital FFAs.
There's not many people using them, and they won't want to lose their precious risk-free PvP environment. I'd wager 2 or 3 bans will set the precedent, which obviously won't require much work on behalf of a Dev/CCP official.
Note that this should really apply to Capitals in general, but starting with the Supercaps would be a good way to gauge how much effort this rule would take to enforce. Who knows-- it may trickle all the way down and you can change back all FFA's to the old rules, once word spreads. (Probably not, because people are 'tards.)
2) Put faction *ammo* back on the market.
It's used in PvP galaxy wide. While one could fly around and collect some at normal prices, the fixed amount after the mirror won't last forever and it's a PITA. Not sure why it was removed in the first place? It's NOT a discouragement to "arcade Eve", and it actively takes away from a "TQ-like environment".
3) Pull AT ships, if you're going to pull anything.
Again, not sure why some hulls were pulled from the market, but they are vastly more common on TQ than Adrastias, Mimirs, etc. I'd say put the Navy stuff back up and yank these suckers-- or perhaps limit their availability? It WOULD BE a discouragement to "arcade Eve", and its loss would not take away from a "TQ-like environment".
4) Extend penalties/locks/bans to TQ for rule violations.
It's a violation of the EULA, right-- going against CCP rules? I'm sure I could make a valid argument for why it would be...
This one takes minimal time and effort, as once the penalty is assessed for SiSi, it's just a matter of applying it on TQ as well.
Note that you may want to cut some slack to people who don't/can't/refuse to read the rules. I wouldn't, but hey-- it's not my server or my dollar. That said, it could easily be accomplished by checking usage logs. If someone spends a lot of time on SiSi and violates a rule, down falleth the ban hammer.
Just opening up the possibility of a penalty on TQ would act as a deterrent, at the very least. You may not ever have to make it happen, or just make one or two examples, for it to be effective. Needless to say, it would probably be better used for flagrant violations or repeated infractions. But don't come out and say that-- people love to push the boundaries, and by defining them, you just make it easier.
"You could be banned from TQ for violating rules on Singularity" is just ambiguous enough to scare the crap out of these goofballs.
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Xynthiar
Gallente Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.08.11 02:52:00 -
[26]
On the topic of changing rules... I recall the devblog back from february stating that bans would be permanent, what happened to that? Sounded like a great idea to me.
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CCP Konflikt
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Posted - 2011.08.11 10:48:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Marcus Sin Rules/Policy Suggestions....
1) People being in the right place leads to the over head of distinguishing that they are there intentionally and also that it's too easy to do. This was a major contributor to the rules changing last time, we don't have time to enforce a rule like this.
2) Not sure about this.
3) I will look into this.
4) All the activity these people do, if they were to do on TQ (in nearly every case) wouldn't even raise the eyebrow of a GM. I don't think someone being irritating on a test server should effect their status as a paying customer, that's one step too far. I always prefer the carrot to the stick.
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Demolishar
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Posted - 2011.08.11 12:35:00 -
[28]
Can't you just code some sort of super turret that only shoots at certain ship classes and put one in each FFA?
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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
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Posted - 2011.08.11 12:36:00 -
[29]
Originally by: Demolishar Can't you just code some sort of super turret that only shoots at certain ship classes and put one in each FFA?
What part of "We don't want to make more arcade level content for a test server" don't you comprende Demolishar?
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Demolishar
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Posted - 2011.08.11 12:41:00 -
[30]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Originally by: Demolishar Can't you just code some sort of super turret that only shoots at certain ship classes and put one in each FFA?
What part of "We don't want to make more arcade level content for a test server" don't you comprende Demolishar?
It might be as simple as changing some AI weightings.
But I'm sure you wouldn't like to see your precious supercap shot down, or to lose your unkillable sniper mach.
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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
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Posted - 2011.08.11 12:49:00 -
[31]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 11/08/2011 12:56:32 Cry moar sisi noob, and then check this section of the forums for me complaining about how there are carriers and supers at every beacon... and how sisi is at a horrid state atm.
Where as you on the other hand can't seem to read what the dev is typing.
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Demolishar
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Posted - 2011.08.11 13:02:00 -
[32]
"Unless changes would be minor and low maintenance" is what the dev typed. I have no idea whether what I suggested is a minor thing or not. If it isn't, oh well. If it is, maybe they have overlooked it and could add it.
I like how you accuse me of crying, then boast of your own tears as if when you do it it's some sort of achievement.
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Cry moar sisi noob, and then check this section of the forums for me complaining
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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
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Posted - 2011.08.11 13:36:00 -
[33]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 11/08/2011 13:42:22 Cry Moar Noob <------- See I did it again \0/
On the E-O forums we do not have to speak intelligently. Forum rules are also not worth the Dev's time to enforce. So I can say things like GTFO, STFU, tell yo mama jokes and Trolololololol!!111 I still look really cool.
Signed, Your Internet Daddy... Eternum Praetorian.
Oh yea... and cry moar noob.
WTB a good idea to fix SISI, not "program a gun" lol
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Marcus Sin
Caldari School of Applied Knowledge
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Posted - 2011.08.12 02:54:00 -
[34]
Originally by: CCP Konflikt
1) People being in the right place leads to the over head of distinguishing that they are there intentionally and also that it's too easy to do. This was a major contributor to the rules changing last time, we don't have time to enforce a rule like this.
I'm not entirely clear on what you're saying, but I think I've got the gist.
If they've taken the time to get a Supercap into system (without getting jumped at the Cyno, which means having one built), they oughta know the rules by now. Intentions shouldn't even be a consideration.
At the same time, I can see what you're saying. It's certainly difficult to enforce across the entire spectrum of the Sisi population. But what are we talking about for Supercaps here? 50 pilots? I typically only see 4-5 at a time. And trust me-- with the way they're using the test server, they've got a lot to lose and won't risk breaking the rules.
Originally by: CCP Konflikt
2) Not sure about this.
3) I will look into this.
These two have only changed since the recent mirror, and may well be an oversight. Totally understandable with trying to get everything ready for the Mass Test, but I addressed them in case it was a conscious decision (that makes absolutely no sense).
Originally by: CCP Konflikt
4) All the activity these people do, if they were to do on TQ (in nearly every case) wouldn't even raise the eyebrow of a GM. I don't think someone being irritating on a test server should effect their status as a paying customer, that's one step too far. I always prefer the carrot to the stick.
Well, first and foremost, the rules AND enforcement on TQ are built into the game. Other than full on exploits of buggy systems, or serious abuse of mechanics in a way that "wasn't intended", everything on TQ basically takes care of itself. (After all-- EvE players pride themselves on participating in a game where scamming is accepted, suicide ganks in Empire are the norm, and being creative and smart gets you rewarded in all sorts of intricate ways.)
An irritation is one thing; a complete and utter detriment to honest, effective testing is another. Not to mention they're intentionally violation rules set forth by CCP. You can bet it wouldn't happen on TQ, because again-- there's actually something to lose.
I understand preferring the carrot to the stick, especially when dealing with paying customers. (The stick is a billion times more effective with people these days, though...)
What you've got now, however, is pure carrot with no semblance of a stick. In fact, you started serving 8 course carrot dinners by changing the rules in the first place.
I'll tell you this, though. I've observed since the mirror that with more traffic on Sisi, things have improved. When the novelty wears off and you get back to the core group of Arcade players, the environment will suffer again.
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Demolishar
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Posted - 2011.08.14 15:14:00 -
[35]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
On the E-O forums we do not have to speak intelligently. Forum rules are also not worth the Dev's time to enforce. So I can say things like GTFO, STFU, tell yo mama jokes and Trolololololol!!111 I still look really cool.
Posting garbage all over a forum on the internet does not make you cool. It makes you, to use a term I'm sure you'll be familiar with, a new***.
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Vincent Athena
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Posted - 2011.08.15 17:52:00 -
[36]
Originally by: CCP Konflikt ......
I'm all ears if you guys have valid rule suggestions but those rules can't involve making something new just for SiSi, need to be very low maintainance and realistic. An army of volunteers to ban people is not realistic before it's suggested.
How about specific FFA solar systems? That way if I was killed by a super while flying a cruiser in the cruiser FFA system all I need do is post the kill mail in the Rules Violations thread, and the check by CCP would be no harder than it is now: Did the kill occur in the wrong system, and was damage done by the wrong ship type?
This would not cover the logistical support issue, but it helps the overall problem somewhat.
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Fizzan
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Posted - 2011.08.16 02:00:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Vincent Athena
Originally by: CCP Konflikt ......
I'm all ears if you guys have valid rule suggestions but those rules can't involve making something new just for SiSi, need to be very low maintainance and realistic. An army of volunteers to ban people is not realistic before it's suggested.
How about specific FFA solar systems? That way if I was killed by a super while flying a cruiser in the cruiser FFA system all I need do is post the kill mail in the Rules Violations thread, and the check by CCP would be no harder than it is now: Did the kill occur in the wrong system, and was damage done by the wrong ship type?
This would not cover the logistical support issue, but it helps the overall problem somewhat.
Makes too much sense.
After struggling with patching Sisi on Windows since the last patch, I'm convinced "difficulty" is the name of the game.
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Jaiimez C
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Posted - 2011.08.23 15:59:00 -
[38]
Edited by: Jaiimez C on 23/08/2011 16:01:02 Hey Konflikt, personally my little 2 bit on this.
I understand the removal of certain faction ship from the market and it's fine, however you say you want a TQ Like environment, how many people do you know on TQ who go into a fight with T1 Ammo, the only time I will be with T1 ammo is for structure bashing, I would never dream of fighting some other player with T1 ammo, so faction ammo I believe should come back, same as he faction cap boosters although they're not as big of a deal.
and for everyone else, the AT ships are seeded to give people the chance to try a ship that they may never own on TQ in their life on eve, and even those who own them can't undock them they'd be suicide ganked. However a suggestion (I don't know what it would take to have this implemented so Konflikt could say it would be a waste of time to implement just for Sisi) but have every mirror, every member given 5 of each alliance tournament ship, (surely the same kind of software that seeds the stations can seed players with these ships) nd once those ships have been lost the only way to obtain new ones is to trade with other players who still have some (I currently like the way faction mods and officer mods have become a currency on Sisi).
That was people can test them, and it stop's them being overused.
edit: By faction ammo I mean atleast Republic Fleet, Federation Navy, Caldari Navy & Imperial Navy not pirate faction ammo.
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Xynthiar
Gallente Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.08.23 19:22:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Jaiimez C Edited by: Jaiimez C on 23/08/2011 16:01:02 I understand the removal of certain faction ship from the market and it's fine
Actually... the seed script is just borked when it comes to those faction ships :)
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Freyja Asynjur
Folkvangr
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Posted - 2011.08.23 23:50:00 -
[40]
No more faction stuff and unique design ships on the market, ever. Problems solved. Anything else is just the usual Sisi slugfest that everyone loves.
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