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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Trebor Daehdoow
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:08:00 -
[61]
Originally by: CCP Prism X I'm not promising anything on behalf of Team BFF or anybody for that matter. Just fishing for ideas.
Well, I for one am promising copious amounts of mind-altering substances (reasonably legal ones, mind you) if you ninja in improvements to bookmarks.
One simple ninja improvement: be able to export/import bookmarks in a form that lets them be cut and pasted (into emails, evemails, corp bulletins, people&places, etc). In other words, have the server sign them with a secret key, so what the player gets is:
Bookmark name=[encrypted&signed bookmark location data]
eg: WH Static 12-Aug-2011=[ajhd73mnfhAHJA73dhlsfjje7236mfuelchajuejjwejdjjajjedydyd]
Then when someone pastes in the bookmark, the server can determine it is a valid, non-forged bookmark, and add it to their bookmarks database.
Total cost: a little extra code in P&P to handle the import&export. Now, for a normal dev, that might be a week of work, but for you, at most a weekend, and that's assuming you don't get started until Saturday afternoon because of Friday night.
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Sadayiel
Caldari Inner Conflict
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:08:00 -
[62]
Originally by: CCP Prism X I actually never said anything about WTZ other than implying that even with a BM overhaul there's no guarantee for WTZ being removed. I just want to overhaul the BM system because the technical limitations of that are the true reason for the introduction of WTZ so it feels like something left behind. I could see myself having fun with making a new BM system.. that says absolutely nothing about removing WTZ.
So.. I'm kinda admitting to derailing the topic in a direction I have interests in. It's how I roll!
Having fun in your daily work HEATHENS!!! stop tickling the hamsters and start working as slaves to stop the non-stop whines!!
DEAR MONOCLE OVERLORDS JOIN TO FORCE CCP ADD LORGNETTE FOR THE OVERLADIES!! |
Vyktor Abyss
The Abyss Corporation
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:09:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Vyktor Abyss on 12/08/2011 12:10:42
Originally by: CCP Prism X I actually never said anything about WTZ other than implying that even with a BM overhaul there's no guarantee for WTZ being removed. I just want to overhaul the BM system because the technical limitations of that are the true reason for the introduction of WTZ so it feels like something left behind. I could see myself having fun with making a new BM system.. that says absolutely nothing about removing WTZ.
So.. I'm kinda admitting to derailing the topic in a direction I have interests in. It's how I roll!
Dude, I'd rather see you do something cool like add more space again personally...you were good at that. Bookmarks is so beneath you after 5 years at CCP - Let team BFF do that, they're good at being Eve's janitors and fixing the metaphorical broken toilets!
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:09:00 -
[64]
If we could drag bookmarks into the chat window, and right-click to add bookmark on BMs in the chat window that would make life so much easier.
There is no monocle. |
Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari draketrain
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:16:00 -
[65]
can you put at least add bookmark button on right click menu when you right click in space?
also sharing bookmarks via linking and broadcasting would be awesome
that aside, for future, we really need more flying in space - less warping between bookmarks/wrecks/gang members in space.
for bookmarks, wouldn't it be possible to just add warp to 200km(or x km) above/below/right/left the object x? why we need bookmarks for them?
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Marchocias
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:26:00 -
[66]
Edited by: Marchocias on 12/08/2011 12:31:43
Originally by: Velicitia
Originally by: Marchocias
Surely it would make more sense if it was just a solarsystemID and 3 coordinate numbers...
I think you get this if you use the "create bookmark" thing from people and places (most likely wrong though).
Trouble with that is you could do "bad things" and potentially make bookmarks waaaaay outside of the system (32AU safes, for example). There needs to be a way to ensure at least one pilot has been to where there is a bookmark...
Well, CCP could just apply the same function that they used to move all the way-out bookmarks from before, and simply validate every BM before creation to prevent invalid BMs being created.
Personally, I think it would work much better as a mostly client-side system, with both client and serverside validation, but with People and Places still stored server side. It should allow easy importing and exporting of bookmark lists, creation of bookmarks anywhere you can provide valid coordinates, corporation and alliance bookmarks lists, and linking to bookmarks in chat, bio, corp descriptions etc. (eg all text fields) ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died? |
Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:39:00 -
[67]
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
Originally by: CCP Prism X I'm not promising anything on behalf of Team BFF or anybody for that matter. Just fishing for ideas.
Well, I for one am promising copious amounts of mind-altering substances (reasonably legal ones, mind you) if you ninja in improvements to bookmarks.
One simple ninja improvement: be able to export/import bookmarks in a form that lets them be cut and pasted (into emails, evemails, corp bulletins, people&places, etc). In other words, have the server sign them with a secret key, so what the player gets is:
Bookmark name=[encrypted&signed bookmark location data]
eg: WH Static 12-Aug-2011=[ajhd73mnfhAHJA73dhlsfjje7236mfuelchajuejjwejdjjajjedydyd]
Then when someone pastes in the bookmark, the server can determine it is a valid, non-forged bookmark, and add it to their bookmarks database.
Total cost: a little extra code in P&P to handle the import&export. Now, for a normal dev, that might be a week of work, but for you, at most a weekend, and that's assuming you don't get started until Saturday afternoon because of Friday night.
Signed.
PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE fix this.
I had a corpie lost recently, after the static WH spewed him randomly into the system when he jumped in. It was BEYOND SILLY that I, sitting on the other side, could not tell him where it was (I was double tapped so could not jump).
We lost a good chance at a kill as a result.
They should be information (coordinates need to be encrypted, perhaps, to avoid making deep safes again) that is easily exchangeable by all. -------
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Bologna Brains
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:45:00 -
[68]
Edited by: Bologna Brains on 12/08/2011 12:46:27 solution is quite simple for bring 15km warps: dont allow BM's to be made within XX amount of distance from a jumpgate. This eliminates the need for WTZ bookmarks, and thus addresses your reason for introducing WTZ in the first place.
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Dorian Wylde
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Posted - 2011.08.12 12:55:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Bologna Brains Edited by: Bologna Brains on 12/08/2011 12:46:27 solution is quite simple for bring 15km warps: dont allow BM's to be made within XX amount of distance from a jumpgate. This eliminates the need for WTZ bookmarks, and thus addresses your reason for introducing WTZ in the first place.
I've always assumed there is some limitation in the code, or game philosophy or whatever that means they can't do this.
It's better than the conclusion that they just didn't think of the painfully obvious and perfect solution.
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Rakshasa Taisab
Caldari Sane Industries Inc.
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:01:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Bologna Brains solution is quite simple for bring 15km warps: dont allow BM's to be made within XX amount of distance from a jumpgate. This eliminates the need for WTZ bookmarks, and thus addresses your reason for introducing WTZ in the first place.
People had afaik several WTZ BMs per gate depending on which gate they warped from... Why do you think that was the case?
Hint; it has something to do with a very obvious loophole in your idea.
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Taleris Kline
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:01:00 -
[71]
Edited by: Taleris Kline on 12/08/2011 13:04:36 Great dev responses so far.
I think that what bookmarks do in the context menu is great, but everything else about bookmarks is kind of wonky.
Having bookmarks be stone tablets as CCP Prism X indicated is kind of silly. Since coordinates could be construed as a 4 dimensionsal number (x, y, z and system name), they should be able to be transferred just as easily as an e-mail.
Edit: removed silly question
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Bologna Brains
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:04:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Bologna Brains on 12/08/2011 13:05:00
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Bologna Brains solution is quite simple for bring 15km warps: dont allow BM's to be made within XX amount of distance from a jumpgate. This eliminates the need for WTZ bookmarks, and thus addresses your reason for introducing WTZ in the first place.
People had afaik several WTZ BMs per gate depending on which gate they warped from... Why do you think that was the case?
Hint; it has something to do with a very obvious loophole in your idea.
?
Example:
Gate 1 to Gate 2. You need a bookmark at Gate 2.. so you dont allow a bokmark made wihtin 50km of Gate 2. How does this fail?
No loophole in my idea at all; if you cant make a bookmark within 50km of a gate, you cant make WTZ bookmarks at that gate, and as such, you cannot warp closer than 50km to any gate using a bookmark.
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Marchocias
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:12:00 -
[73]
Originally by: Bologna Brains Edited by: Bologna Brains on 12/08/2011 13:05:00
Originally by: Rakshasa Taisab
Originally by: Bologna Brains solution is quite simple for bring 15km warps: dont allow BM's to be made within XX amount of distance from a jumpgate. This eliminates the need for WTZ bookmarks, and thus addresses your reason for introducing WTZ in the first place.
People had afaik several WTZ BMs per gate depending on which gate they warped from... Why do you think that was the case?
Hint; it has something to do with a very obvious loophole in your idea.
?
Example:
Gate 1 to Gate 2. You need a bookmark at Gate 2.. so you dont allow a bokmark made wihtin 50km of Gate 2. How does this fail?
No loophole in my idea at all; if you cant make a bookmark within 50km of a gate, you cant make WTZ bookmarks at that gate, and as such, you cannot warp closer than 50km to any gate using a bookmark.
It has to be no BMs withing 115km for that to work, but it would work. With no BMs within 15km, the nearest you can use a BM to warp in at is warp to 100 with puts you 15km away still. You could make it 150km to be nice and sure. Still warp to zero is actually a good thing. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died? |
Magnus Veyr
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:16:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Bologna Brains Gate 1 to Gate 2. You need a bookmark at Gate 2.. so you dont allow a bokmark made wihtin 50km of Gate 2. How does this fail?
No loophole in my idea at all; if you cant make a bookmark within 50km of a gate, you cant make WTZ bookmarks at that gate, and as such, you cannot warp closer than 50km to any gate using a bookmark.
If you make BM at 100km behind a gate, you can warp to that at 100km landing right on the gate. So for your idea to work the "no BM" zone would have to be 100+km
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Spurty
Caldari V0LTA VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:18:00 -
[75]
U mad bro?
There's only One Zymurgist! |
Takamori Maruyama
Amarr Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:20:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst If we could drag bookmarks into the chat window, and right-click to add bookmark on BMs in the chat window that would make life so much easier.
We could sell safe spots for ISK's
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Bologna Brains
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:20:00 -
[77]
Edited by: Bologna Brains on 12/08/2011 13:21:18
Originally by: Magnus Veyr
Originally by: Bologna Brains Gate 1 to Gate 2. You need a bookmark at Gate 2.. so you dont allow a bokmark made wihtin 50km of Gate 2. How does this fail?
No loophole in my idea at all; if you cant make a bookmark within 50km of a gate, you cant make WTZ bookmarks at that gate, and as such, you cannot warp closer than 50km to any gate using a bookmark.
If you make BM at 100km behind a gate, you can warp to that at 100km landing right on the gate. So for your idea to work the "no BM" zone would have to be 100+km
wrote that very quick to refute the idea that i had a "loophole" in my idea.
Like I said in my original post above, devs can easily implement a XX distance from a jumpgate to prevent bookmark creation and that would solve all this. Dont know why it was never done.
Easy, simple solution instead of having added WTZ. Doubt this solution will get a dev response though.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:28:00 -
[78]
There's nothing wrong with WTZ as is. If you can't adapt your little faux-PvP gatecamps to the system then the problem is more likely to be you than the system.
If you were to take away WTZ, you'd need to buff transports and the like so those poor bastards wouldn't have to spend a week trying to go 10 jumps to Jita.
There is no monocle. |
Abrazzar
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:43:00 -
[79]
Originally by: CCP Prism X I'm not promising anything on behalf of Team BFF or anybody for that matter. Just fishing for ideas.
If you are redoing the bookmark system, you could add support for moving celestials by adding information relating to a celestial into the bookmark. For example: Bookmark [name]; in relation to [celestial]; [tick]rotation and location; [tick] location only.
Maybe add stations and POSes and such, too instead of only celestials as those may be orbiting, too.
And slap some sense into whoever can't drop the up/down orientation of space, I want full 3D free fall open space. --------
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Taleris Kline
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Posted - 2011.08.12 13:50:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Abrazzar
Originally by: CCP Prism X I'm not promising anything on behalf of Team BFF or anybody for that matter. Just fishing for ideas.
If you are redoing the bookmark system, you could add support for moving celestials by adding information relating to a celestial into the bookmark. For example: Bookmark [name]; in relation to [celestial]; [tick]rotation and location; [tick] location only.
Maybe add stations and POSes and such, too instead of only celestials as those may be orbiting, too.
And slap some sense into whoever can't drop the up/down orientation of space, I want full 3D free fall open space.
I think the problem with the up/down orientation of the camera is due to only being able to control the camera in two dimensions. You can pitch the camera up and down and yaw it side to side, but there is currently no way to roll the camera clockwise/counter clockwise around the current pitch/yaw point (as far as I remember). If the ability to roll the camera was added, I think that would fix the up/down orientation of space.
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Simetraz
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:08:00 -
[81]
Edited by: Simetraz on 12/08/2011 14:09:34
NO thanks, I was very happy to lose my bookmarks.
If you bring it back it just means old tactics will return.
ie. Groups use a scout who warps ahead of the group and sits on the gate while everyone warps to them. Scouts have better uses then wasting time on navigation. See it is very easy to get around warp to 15 or 50 km for that matter.
All it does is make things more irritating for the vast majority while helping the few who obviously just can't figure it out.
Oh yeh I would love to be able to create bookmarks for corp and alliance that you can right click and use like a normal one. Now THAT would be great. Even the ability to selectively grant certain bookmarks and deny others. Prism if you can do that......and think of how your current bookmark count would go way down.
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Viceroy
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:11:00 -
[82]
WTZ was a terrible solution to instajumps that removed the databse cluttering while reinforcing the actual game breaking aspect of instajumps; that they provide super fast, super safe travel at no cost and require extraordinary effort to counter. This in turn made EVE much much smaller than it used to be, and made every ship roughly the same in terms of travel speed and safety, greatly reducing tactical, strategic and logistical variation and basically dumbing the game down so that carebears could have faster access to more content without as much risk.
There was one simple solution to instajumps that CCP ignored back then, and the same solution will work today for WTZ. Make it impossible to warp closer than 15km to gates. Bubbles already do this, just use the same code and the entire discussion about bookmarks becomes irrelevant. I find it hilarious that CCP coded bubbles as a counterweight to WTZ after removing instajumps, but failed to realize that simply adding the same mechanic to gates would have fixed instajumps in the first place without any need for bubbles or WTZ.
All the miserable carebears in this thread who are crying their eyes out and pooping their pants over the prospect of WTZ being removed and piracy/ganking becoming easier are automatically wrong because whilst before WTZ you could run a blockade with a properly fitted/sized fast ship and some planning, after WTZ the size and fitting of your ship became entirely irrelevant thanks to bubbles.
The primary reason why WTZ broke the game though isn't about travel safety. Ultimately, WTZ didn't make travel so much safer as much as it made it simpler and dumber (greater sins by far). Before WTZ smart people would scout ahead and avoid trouble, as they do now. The unprepared and stupid would die. The difference was the extent to which you could prepare (using a smaller and faster ship to run blockades vs. just waiting because there is a bubble) or take risks (running blockade = variable chance of dying based on your setup and the enemy vs. jumping into a bubble = 99% instadeath). It just became a simpler equation with WTZ, which made the game worse and the instant-gratification crowd extremely happy.
No, the reason WTZ broke the game is because it utterly and completely screwed up travel times. It not only made travel absolutely faster for every ship, but it also shrank the travel time differential between bigger and smaller ships down to negligibility (aka warp speed). Travel fittings no longer mattered, fleets didn't need to fit MWDs to travel fast, and large ships went almost as fast as frigates. This in turn made the universe much much smaller, conflicts less consequental, planning less complex, space less vast, 0.0 less scary, the frontier less daunting, and sapped a lot of things that made EVE unique and exciting. Instead we got a dose of the treadmill & instant-gratification culture that proliferates certain games with goddamn elves and dwarves.
Prism, if you want a side project, adopt the cause of removing WTZ and fixing travel times in EVE. The benefit of making bookmarks easier to trade is a drop of irrelevant water compared to the sea of carebear tears and torrents of joy that would flow at the funeral of WTZ.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:15:00 -
[83]
ITT: Tears of the unadaptable and failed ePirates.
There is no monocle. |
Spacing Cowboy
Caldari Rule of Five Vera Cruz Alliance
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:17:00 -
[84]
null Dear CCP Prism X. :)
My idea, make a radio-ui ( box like drone control ) - make your current location drag-able like solar system to Chat and eve-mail.
Program wise, i assume our spaceship is at a X,Y,Z location in system Y. Hence, info already in the cnull lient, no need for extra server mods. ( right? )
Able to fly a ship with railguns, the size of a small flat, but not able to tell anybody where i am exacly, have been a inmersion killer since the day i found out what bookmark really did in this game. ( week 1 :p )
Peace
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Maxpie
Metaphysical Utopian Society Explorations
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:20:00 -
[85]
Ah, this thread brings back memories...
-Sitting on a gate, bored to tears, waiting to pop the rare traveler who didn't have instas just so corpmates could feel good about themselves
-Spending countless hours making instas. I became quite good at it actually
-Not traveling anywhere in lowsec or 0.0 without first making instas in a shuttle
-Rarely leaving my home system in high-sec, unless I had instas to the destination, because of the utter boredom involved in traveling
No. Sorry. I doubt I'd still be playing this game if WTZ had not been introduced. He put... creatures... in our bodies... to control our minds. He made us... say lies... do things. |
Bologna Brains
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:22:00 -
[86]
Originally by: Maxpie Ah, this thread brings back memories...
-Sitting on a gate, bored to tears, waiting to pop the rare traveler who didn't have instas just so corpmates could feel good about themselves
-Spending countless hours making instas. I became quite good at it actually
-Not traveling anywhere in lowsec or 0.0 without first making instas in a shuttle
-Rarely leaving my home system in high-sec, unless I had instas to the destination, because of the utter boredom involved in traveling
No. Sorry. I doubt I'd still be playing this game if WTZ had not been introduced.
All of which you would never have to do if bookmarks are not creatable within 100km of jumpgates. ;)
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Spacing Cowboy
Caldari Rule of Five Vera Cruz Alliance
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:27:00 -
[87]
Regarding the wtz fail-vet tears, Learn to bubble and investigate the module named Sensor Booster. For advanced use, you might want to look at the topic " ways to decloak" .
Gawt, so long in this game, and a 09 noob has to educate your ass? Undock more!?
Then try to gatecamp again
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Andreus Ixiris
Gallente Mixed Metaphor
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:36:00 -
[88]
Warp to Zero is never getting removed.
Deal with it. ----- Andreus Ixiris CEO, Mixed Metaphor
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Bologna Brains
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:40:00 -
[89]
Edited by: Bologna Brains on 12/08/2011 14:41:45
Originally by: Andreus Ixiris Warp to Zero is never getting removed.
Deal with it.
Even if this is true, just calling out CCP Prism on his rationale for the removal of warp to 15 with the fact that if they were really concerend about bookmark clutter, they could have disabled bookmarks from being created 100km surrounding a gate instead of the carebear option WTZ.
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Bologna Brains
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Posted - 2011.08.12 14:42:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Spacing Cowboy Regarding the wtz fail-vet tears, Learn to bubble and investigate the module named Sensor Booster. For advanced use, you might want to look at the topic " ways to decloak" .
Gawt, so long in this game, and a 09 noob has to educate your ass? Undock more!?
Then try to gatecamp again
except bubbles cant be placed in low sec?
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