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Zagdul
Gallente Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.08.19 10:29:00 -
[1]
Removing local is the most R E T A R D E D idea CCP has ever come up with.
Local helps you FIND fights and the way null is right now, most people put a gang together and can't find one. This will make finding PVP HARDER not EASIER.
It will make ganking easier, but that's not PVP, that's PvCB.
Not only that, but this is going to make black ops easy as, well, you never saw us coming, you didn't see us jump into system and well, you don't have our fleet scouted within range either, cause it's cloaked and you have no local.
Removing local is a bad idea and the morons who make the claim that a delayed local, like in wormholes, is a good idea are dumb as they don't think about how unbalanced and boring null/low sec will be when/if they do.
It doesn't help gang warfare in the slightest.
When I take out a 10-20 man gang, we find our hostiles by going into local/intel channels (which are reported by local counts and normally inaccurate ), counting how many bad dudes and deciding to engage or not.
Without local, and by using an "improved scan system" you're now turning, what could be a fast, fun moving gang into a slow, boring one cause you gotta put your faith into a system we're counting on CCP to develop to function as intended.
Good luck
Local works, leave it.
The tears generated from black ops will be glorious, however, this will be niche and short lived. The rest of EVE Online combat will be difficult and hard to find. You will in essence, ruin finding small gangs to fight, just as there is an upswing on small gang warfare.
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Brooks Puuntai
Minmatar Nomadic Asylum
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Posted - 2011.08.19 10:34:00 -
[2]
It would allow for alot more unexpected fights. Most of the time fights are AVOIDED because of the info they get in local. Say for an example your running a 20 man gang and your scout notices a 40 man gang 2 systems out. Most gangs will log off or run away, there for avoiding conflict. Without local you will probably see more small scale skirmishs due to lack of intel.
However I do agree to a point that it will allow for a lot more ganks, especially on carebears since the carebear will have no idea if their FoF.
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Zagdul
Gallente Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.08.19 10:36:00 -
[3]
Just to reiterate... I look forward to carebear tears when, not if as I have lost confidence in CCP's ability to have a rational thought. However, the idea behind warping in a cloaked ship which they won't have on D-Scan, pointing and bringing my gang in, be it by Cover Ops or through a gate will become very boring, very quick.
The thrill of the hunt will be more cumbersome and you'll remove some of the fun of pvp.
Wake up.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.19 10:39:00 -
[4]
Because using the D-Scan is impossible
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Zagdul
Gallente Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.08.19 10:40:00 -
[5]
Edited by: Zagdul on 19/08/2011 10:41:13 Edited by: Zagdul on 19/08/2011 10:40:26
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai It would allow for alot more unexpected fights. Most of the time fights are AVOIDED because of the info they get in local. Say for an example your running a 20 man gang and your scout notices a 40 man gang 2 systems out. Most gangs will log off or run away, there for avoiding conflict. Without local you will probably see more small scale skirmishs due to lack of intel.
However I do agree to a point that it will allow for a lot more ganks, especially on carebears since the carebear will have no idea if their FoF.
"unexpected"?
This is what covert ops are for or titan bridging. Good alliances who are capable of springing a trap, (see: rooks and kings/evoke/NC./GSF/the list goes on) is already in place.
Removing local would inhibit gang fights as people need to invest more time and effort into pvp. Effort right now in EVE is not what the GAME (we are supposed to be playing one right?) is in need of.
Originally by: baltec1 Because using the D-Scan is impossible
With a covert ops cloak, yep.
Please argue the Wormhole theory.
Cause that theory is easily pooped on. Please, do it.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.19 10:43:00 -
[6]
Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: baltec1 Because using the D-Scan is impossible
With a covert ops cloak, yep.
Please argue the Wormhole theory.
Cause that theory is easily pooped on. Please, do it.
Few people pvp in wormholes because you cant do a quick roam?
But seriously, keep aligned and they cant catch you.
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Tiven loves Tansien
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Posted - 2011.08.19 10:44:00 -
[7]
OP, why not make your bot use directional scan
no need to worry then Signature removed for discussion player bans. Zymurgist |
Jemima Puddlefuck
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.08.19 10:47:00 -
[8]
Apocrypha came out quite a while ago. There is no need to whine about this now.
You don't even know what it is CCP intend for 0.0 local apart from them stating it will NOT be the same implementation as J space. ~~~
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Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.08.19 10:48:00 -
[9]
I actually think it will create the opposite. as the guy above me says it will create alot of skirmishes as people will not (most of the time) know theres a another gang 3 jumps out etc.
All local really does is give you very quick intel. You said it yourself you use local to decide whether or not to engage, so your basically saying if you know your odds on to win your going to attack and if you think they might be a chance of you losing your gonna bail.
The fact that it is hard to find pvp (not for everyone) in 0.0 is that you have large swaves of 0.0 that are blue to each other and you little gang has been reported 20 mintues before you arrive. Most people dock up and do something else or the others try to get a fleet twice the size of yours to completely waste you. Unfortunately PVP for the most part (not all mind) in EVE has become a numbers agme.
I actually think it would help small gang warfare but then again all thats probably going to happen is nobody will roam without 30 plus players in their fleet because they are scared of what might in the next system.
Personally I wouldn't see a problem with it being removed.
Also saying people are "dumb" or "morons" because they don't agree with your point of view doesn't really help your argument.
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Zagdul
Gallente Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.08.19 10:49:00 -
[10]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: baltec1 Because using the D-Scan is impossible
With a covert ops cloak, yep.
Please argue the Wormhole theory.
Cause that theory is easily pooped on. Please, do it.
Few people pvp in wormholes because you cant do a quick roam?
But seriously, keep aligned and they cant catch you.
You're dumb.
"Keep aligned as the cloaked recon points you then lights a cyno and drops a titan on your face, or a black ops fleet, or a gang sitting on a titan."
You can't do that in a wormhole you imbecile.
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Brooks Puuntai
Minmatar Nomadic Asylum
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Posted - 2011.08.19 10:51:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Zagdul Edited by: Zagdul on 19/08/2011 10:41:13 Edited by: Zagdul on 19/08/2011 10:40:26 "unexpected"?
This is what covert ops are for or titan bridging. Good alliances who are capable of springing a trap, (see: rooks and kings/evoke/NC./GSF/the list goes on) is already in place.
Removing local would inhibit gang fights as people need to invest more time and effort into pvp. Effort right now in EVE is not what the GAME (we are supposed to be playing one right?) is in need of.
Even covert drops and hot drops aren't really unexpected. Since you can check local and see that either a single pilot from said alliance or a random NPC corp player is in local. When that happens you can just assume a hot drop is going to happen.
Yes people MIGHT have to spend more time but I honestly don't think so since the unknown aspect is there. Like I said in my first post, ALOT of fights are avoided because of local. If local is removed then people won't have that luxury or intel to avoid fights.
Now just so you know I'm not all for removal of local. However I do think its something that should be explored abit outside of WH. Possibly NPC 0.0 would be a good place to test the theory.
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Jemima Puddlefuck
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.08.19 10:53:00 -
[12]
I would love to know the trick to putting a point on someone while cloaked. Alas I am too dumb to match your intellect. ~~~
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Zagdul
Gallente Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.08.19 10:53:00 -
[13]
Edited by: Zagdul on 19/08/2011 10:54:21
Originally by: Signal11th I actually think it will create the opposite. as the guy above me says it will create alot of skirmishes as people will not (most of the time) know theres a another gang 3 jumps out etc.
All local really does is give you very quick intel. You said it yourself you use local to decide whether or not to engage, so your basically saying if you know your odds on to win your going to attack and if you think they might be a chance of you losing your gonna bail.
The fact that it is hard to find pvp (not for everyone) in 0.0 is that you have large swaves of 0.0 that are blue to each other and you little gang has been reported 20 mintues before you arrive. Most people dock up and do something else or the others try to get a fleet twice the size of yours to completely waste you. Unfortunately PVP for the most part (not all mind) in EVE has become a numbers agme.
I actually think it would help small gang warfare but then again all thats probably going to happen is nobody will roam without 30 plus players in their fleet because they are scared of what might in the next system.
Personally I wouldn't see a problem with it being removed.
Also saying people are "dumb" or "morons" because they don't agree with your point of view doesn't really help your argument.
I'm not sure if you're trolling, but right now... there's a huge upswing in 20-30 man gangs roaming around getting fights. We all use local to engage.
Some alliances further broadcast their fleets via livestream so that people can find them easier.
The current temp in null is not to hide from a fight, rather finding one.
Removing local makes this more work.
Stop making more work in a video game.
Originally by: Jemima Puddle**** I would love to know the trick to putting a point on someone while cloaked. Alas I am too dumb to match your intellect.
yes, you are dumb.
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Thornat
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Posted - 2011.08.19 10:55:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Signal11th I actually think it will create the opposite. as the guy above me says it will create alot of skirmishes as people will not (most of the time) know theres a another gang 3 jumps out etc.
All local really does is give you very quick intel. You said it yourself you use local to decide whether or not to engage, so your basically saying if you know your odds on to win your going to attack and if you think they might be a chance of you losing your gonna bail.
The fact that it is hard to find pvp (not for everyone) in 0.0 is that you have large swaves of 0.0 that are blue to each other and you little gang has been reported 20 mintues before you arrive. Most people dock up and do something else or the others try to get a fleet twice the size of yours to completely waste you. Unfortunately PVP for the most part (not all mind) in EVE has become a numbers agme.
I actually think it would help small gang warfare but then again all thats probably going to happen is nobody will roam without 30 plus players in their fleet because they are scared of what might in the next system.
Personally I wouldn't see a problem with it being removed.
Also saying people are "dumb" or "morons" because they don't agree with your point of view doesn't really help your argument.
Agreed and I think the issue is much larger. Local breaks pretty much every mechanic in the game for which PvP is intended, but in the same token the current ship scanning system is clunky, outdated and not particularly reliable. I think the ship scanning system needs to be improved and made both more interesting by offering ways to add modules, specialize in skills, use specific ships etc.. In short it needs to be cool enough and effective enough to allow for the elimination of local. But as it stands I agree that local as an intel tool is stupid, it pulls you out of the game.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.19 10:58:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Zagdul Edited by: Zagdul on 19/08/2011 10:50:42
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: baltec1 Because using the D-Scan is impossible
With a covert ops cloak, yep.
Please argue the Wormhole theory.
Cause that theory is easily pooped on. Please, do it.
Few people pvp in wormholes because you cant do a quick roam?
But seriously, keep aligned and they cant catch you.
You're dumb.
"Keep aligned as the cloaked recon points you then lights a cyno and drops a titan on your face, or a black ops fleet, or a gang sitting on a titan."
You can't do that in a wormhole you imbecile.
Also.
I am not trying to avoid combat, I'm looking for it.
I'm a sadistic f$ck who would sit in a belt with my gang next door for hours waiting for you to spring your trap. I want PVP, I don't stay aligned. I wait for you to engage me.
This is the point you miss. I want fights and removing local makes it harder for me to find them.
First, if you cannot warp away the second something uncloaks then you were not aligned.
And next, Use the D-scan to find the fights. The loss of local will in no way stop me from roaming and will most likely get me more fights as people cant get instant intel on my gang.
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Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:03:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Zagdul Edited by: Zagdul on 19/08/2011 10:54:21
Originally by: Signal11th I actually think it will create the opposite. as the guy above me says it will create alot of skirmishes as people will not (most of the time) know theres a another gang 3 jumps out etc.
All local really does is give you very quick intel. You said it yourself you use local to decide whether or not to engage, so your basically saying if you know your odds on to win your going to attack and if you think they might be a chance of you losing your gonna bail.
The fact that it is hard to find pvp (not for everyone) in 0.0 is that you have large swaves of 0.0 that are blue to each other and you little gang has been reported 20 mintues before you arrive. Most people dock up and do something else or the others try to get a fleet twice the size of yours to completely waste you. Unfortunately PVP for the most part (not all mind) in EVE has become a numbers agme.
I actually think it would help small gang warfare but then again all thats probably going to happen is nobody will roam without 30 plus players in their fleet because they are scared of what might in the next system.
Personally I wouldn't see a problem with it being removed.
Also saying people are "dumb" or "morons" because they don't agree with your point of view doesn't really help your argument.
I'm not sure if you're trolling, but right now... there's a huge upswing in 20-30 man gangs roaming around getting fights. We all use local to engage.
Some alliances further broadcast their fleets via livestream so that people can find them easier.
The current temp in null is not to hide from a fight, rather finding one.
Removing local makes this more work.
Stop making more work in a video game.
Originally by: Jemima Puddle**** I would love to know the trick to putting a point on someone while cloaked. Alas I am too dumb to match your intellect.
yes, you are dumb.
All I can do is speak from experience of living in 0.0, e.g last night 3 of us, yes that the large fleet of 3 flew into a TEST system where there was at least 15 people in system. We entered, everyone docked up. I mentioned in local that there seemed to be alot of carebears in this system and what happened ...nothing. What actually happened is that a single TEST pilot followed us into our system and said in local "How dare we accuse them of being carebears when in fact we we bigger carebears than them. He then threatened to get the Goontrain to come and kill us.lol pathetic.
Honestly I lived in 0.0 for awhile and all local was used for was to either gank much smaller fleets than us or disengage from much bigger fleets than us.
If local was removed we would have got some juicy kills!
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Ceelah
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:12:00 -
[17]
Edited by: Ceelah on 19/08/2011 11:18:18 OP, when someone pops a cyno and a bazillion m3 of ore lands on you, having or not having local does not help you. It does, however, neut your opportunity to rage / smack in local while you get ****d.
Wanna have better success on a roam? Try using a scout. Use several and spread them around. I hear they have combat probes and can actually see what ships, how many, and exactly where they are in a system.
You know why most people won't fight your 20 man gang? Because they can see you coming in local and run until:
A. They get 40 guys together and blob you (you then post "Waaaaaahhhh! Nerf the blob / supercaps / cynos").
B. You and your 20 Alphanumeric geek names (i.e. "6unsling3R" and "Grumpy McGeekerrage") have left local and are 4 gates away.
See? Having local works both ways, NOT having local works even better for you. Learn some new skills, learn how to apply them, enjoy the fireworks.
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dexington
Caldari Baconoration
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:16:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Zagdul It will make ganking easier, but that's not PVP, that's PvCB.
The risk reward thing should go both ways, if ccp plans on making 0.0 the most lucrative area, it seems fair that it's the most dangerous place to be.
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Brooks Puuntai
Minmatar Nomadic Asylum
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:20:00 -
[19]
Also not having local will allow fleets to actually be able to use different strategies that could actually cause fights.
For example:
Say your sieging a POS. Your actual fleet is 200 strong, however you only initially put 50 on the POS and have the other 150 cloaked up or somewhere else thats not easily scanned out. The defenders look at this and think there is only 50(by being on grid ofc) and decide to set up a counter. The defenders end up sending the 70 people they can muster and start the attack only to find out the actual numbers.
With local the defender sees there are 200 hostiles in local and decide they have no chance of mustering up that kind of numbers and stay docked up.
Another example.
A enemy is sieging a POS once it comes out of RF. They have all gates covered and scouts in surrounding systems watching those gates. However you have a lone(or acouple) people who decided to logoff in system prior to the RF coming out. These pilots end up lighting covert cynos and possibly even titan bridge cynos. The enemy has no idea on numbers so a fight will generally be the outcome.
With local as soon as local spikes either through the covert or titan cyno the enemy now has exact number of hostiles and can then choose to emergency cyno out or warp off to a safe or POS. Another fight avoided.
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:20:00 -
[20]
I don't think CCP is removing local, they are simply changing it somehow, no one knows how.
But I agree kspace is not compatible with wh type delayed local. It works in wormholes, because there is way less traffic and no hotdropping.
Local needs to change, but it can't be completely removed and replaced by nothing, otherwise it will fail miserably.
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Efraya
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:29:00 -
[21]
ITT: Null bears whining about not being able to gather intel via local anymore. Signature removed for not being EVE related. Zymurgist |
Azhpol
Gallente Casa Del Wombat
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:31:00 -
[22]
Originally by: baltec1 And next, Use the D-scan to find the fights. The loss of local will in no way stop me from roaming and will most likely get me more fights as people cant get instant intel on my gang.
Please, for the love of god, tell me how to find out fleet comps from local. That would make ignoring those AFK Cloakers even easier than it already is
And for people saying that people use the intel from local/intel channels to avoid fights when we roam, it couldn't be more wrong. You hear about a fleet twice your size a few systems away and you use that to start getting more people into fleet. We are all dying for a good fight, and knowing that someone has a red fleet in engagement range brings pilots out of the woodwork to get some killmails.
Removing local would make finding goodfights harder, and ganks easier(for a month or 2 til everyone left null).
There is no real fix to AFK cloaking(in the end thats what removing local is about) because there is nothing WRONG with AFK cloaking, and anyone who understands nullsec warfare should understand that. No one will ever win wars/take space without the ability to prevent the enemy from making as much isk/mining as much ore as they can in peacetime.
If you want a change to AFK cloaking and all that, I think an alternate mechanic for disrupting your ability to make isk needs to be put into play to replace it. Got any suggestions? ----------------------------------------------- I don't post on an alt, I post on my forum main! |
Yvenn
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:33:00 -
[23]
@ Zagdul: Please leave your ******ed posts on kug...com, thanks. Remove of local would be the best that could happen to EVE since years ( maybe not for your fleet of Tengu bots up north though ).
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Monstress
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:35:00 -
[24]
Originally by: baltec1
First, if you cannot warp away the second something uncloaks then you were not aligned.
I've caught many naive people like you who don't understand the concept of a bump decloak. You sir have clearly demonstrated your elite PVP skillz.
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Vice Admiral Spreadsheet
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:39:00 -
[25]
CCP have insisted that local will be replaced by other intel tools. Something which benefits from a "net" of intelligence, I'm guessing, as they want intel to be very easily shared. They'll probably change local to delayed, and add other stuff, for null/low/WH. It'll be different for each, probably.
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Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:40:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Monstress
Originally by: baltec1
First, if you cannot warp away the second something uncloaks then you were not aligned.
I've caught many naive people like you who don't understand the concept of a bump decloak. You sir have clearly demonstrated your elite PVP skillz.
She's right you know!
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Denise Le'Slut
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:42:00 -
[27]
pull the sand out your pussies, ccp never said local will just be removed. why is everyone jumping to strange conclusions from the nebula like devblog
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Suiken-user
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:48:00 -
[28]
I would love to see local in null go. Every time i need to do escalation to null, I always seem to run into bubble camp that tries to gank me and my loot once I'm done. And I don't use T3.
All these crybabies are just scared that their null will not be as safe as it used to be. Null full of blues no more will be the safe paradise.. oh gosh.. what will I do.. will have to tremble in fear and check that D-Scan once in awhile. THE HORROR!.
If it was up to me, I would make all hulls up to cruiser class immune to bubbles. When people could not be ganked so easily anymore, then you would see real traffic like it should be and make Null wild wild west and not some safe carebear island fest that it is now.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:51:00 -
[29]
Edited by: baltec1 on 19/08/2011 11:54:09
Originally by: Azhpol
Please, for the love of god, tell me how to find out fleet comps from local. That would make ignoring those AFK Cloakers even easier than it already is
Fleet jumps in and you have instant numbers and if they are in your space you know exactly where they came from. 90% of the time nothing forms up to counter said gangs and of the ones that do form up most either form up too late or never leave the station.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:52:00 -
[30]
Local is a crutch that people have become accustomed to relying on instead of other, more active tools. Bots depend on it for their insta-warp outs. Gank fleets rely on it to find easy prey, and to run away from real fights. Null-bunnies depend on it to know if it's "safe" to undock. If it's removed, or simply changed to a wormhole-type of system where you only appear if you use it, people will adapt. The game will change a little, bots will be a little easier to kill until they learn to use dscan... hell, everyone will have to learn to use dscan. When you see probes you'll actually have to make a decision to stay or go.
It would be come a more challenging, yet more beautiful place.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
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Prince Kobol
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:56:00 -
[31]
I think what the op is trying to say is that I suck at PvP and don't know know how to use D-Scan and combat probes :)
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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:59:00 -
[32]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 12:00:03 Op is an idiot
Removing local and enhancing D-scan might actually save non-blobbing style PVP. People who oppose it tend to be scared of a universe where they can't instantly see a local full of blues with 0 effort and risk on their part.
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Zagdul
Gallente Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.08.19 11:59:00 -
[33]
Originally by: Signal11th
Originally by: Zagdul Edited by: Zagdul on 19/08/2011 10:54:21
Originally by: Signal11th I actually think it will create the opposite. as the guy above me says it will create alot of skirmishes as people will not (most of the time) know theres a another gang 3 jumps out etc.
All local really does is give you very quick intel. You said it yourself you use local to decide whether or not to engage, so your basically saying if you know your odds on to win your going to attack and if you think they might be a chance of you losing your gonna bail.
The fact that it is hard to find pvp (not for everyone) in 0.0 is that you have large swaves of 0.0 that are blue to each other and you little gang has been reported 20 mintues before you arrive. Most people dock up and do something else or the others try to get a fleet twice the size of yours to completely waste you. Unfortunately PVP for the most part (not all mind) in EVE has become a numbers agme.
I actually think it would help small gang warfare but then again all thats probably going to happen is nobody will roam without 30 plus players in their fleet because they are scared of what might in the next system.
Personally I wouldn't see a problem with it being removed.
Also saying people are "dumb" or "morons" because they don't agree with your point of view doesn't really help your argument.
I'm not sure if you're trolling, but right now... there's a huge upswing in 20-30 man gangs roaming around getting fights. We all use local to engage.
Some alliances further broadcast their fleets via livestream so that people can find them easier.
The current temp in null is not to hide from a fight, rather finding one.
Removing local makes this more work.
Stop making more work in a video game.
Originally by: Jemima Puddle**** I would love to know the trick to putting a point on someone while cloaked. Alas I am too dumb to match your intellect.
yes, you are dumb.
All I can do is speak from experience of living in 0.0, e.g last night 3 of us, yes that the large fleet of 3 flew into a TEST system where there was at least 15 people in system. We entered, everyone docked up. I mentioned in local that there seemed to be alot of carebears in this system and what happened ...nothing. What actually happened is that a single TEST pilot followed us into our system and said in local "How dare we accuse them of being carebears when in fact we we bigger carebears than them. He then threatened to get the Goontrain to come and kill us.lol pathetic.
Honestly I lived in 0.0 for awhile and all local was used for was to either gank much smaller fleets than us or disengage from much bigger fleets than us.
If local was removed we would have got some juicy kills!
Because you would have ganked carebears.
Grats on your P versus CB.
This isn't PVP.
Yes, I've mentioned, yet you've failed to read as have MANY people in this thread who are ignorant... this concept, while fun, would quickly become the form of PVP that is the norm. Roaming gangs would happen less where "ganks" would happen more. I'm a fan of ganks just as much as the next guy. However, easy kills that don't fire back are a novelty.
One aspect of EVE and another playstyle you may be forgetting about are the people like myself who actually look for people who will fire back at me and put up a fight.
not just the dudes who dock up. I would much rather avoid ratting systems unless an alliance will put up a defense fleet and fight me.
The single point many of you ill informed and failure to read types miss is that removing local makes it harder to find ~goodfites~.
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:02:00 -
[34]
Edited by: Aelius on 19/08/2011 12:04:18 Oh my... Oh my... I just live in the safest place in EVE and i haven't realize it
Since WH doesn't have local i'm safe to do whatever without risks... and i need to tell my CEO to not bother to make us a killboard since we won't find PVP anywhere.
"because of local"
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Marchocias
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:02:00 -
[35]
Er... you do understand that other things can be created to fill the intel-hole left by removing local, right?
Why not try and imagine other ways in which fight might be found, rather than relying on an obviously flawed mechanic?
---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died? |
Zagdul
Gallente Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:03:00 -
[36]
Edited by: Zagdul on 19/08/2011 12:03:17
Originally by: Prince Kobol I think what the op is trying to say is that I suck at PvP and don't know know how to use D-Scan and combat probes :)
Quite the contrary.
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 12:00:03 Op is an idiot
Removing local and enhancing D-scan might actually save non-blobbing style PVP. People who oppose it tend to be scared of a universe where they can't instantly see a local full of blues with 0 effort and risk on their part.
Again, you're not reading.
Take a few minutes... read what I've written.
Removing local removes one of the tools used to FIND fights.
The fights I've found in the north > western half > south have all been encounters where similar sized fleets of 10 > 30 dudes come together and get a fight.
Blobs these days happen over strategic objectives. Not over a gate.
Originally by: Marchocias Er... you do understand that other things can be created to fill the intel-hole left by removing local, right?
Why not try and imagine other ways in which fight might be found, rather than relying on an obviously flawed mechanic?
And you're putting your faith into CCP to develop that "other thing".
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:07:00 -
[37]
Originally by: Zagdul Removing local removes one of the tools used to FIND fights.
Actually my friend is quite the opposite... wait let me fix it for you
Originally by: Zagdul Removing local removes one of the tools used to RUN FROM fights.
There... you welcome
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Marchocias
|
Posted - 2011.08.19 12:09:00 -
[38]
Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: Marchocias Er... you do understand that other things can be created to fill the intel-hole left by removing local, right?
Why not try and imagine other ways in which fight might be found, rather than relying on an obviously flawed mechanic?
And you're putting your faith into CCP to develop that "other thing".
I'm not putting my faith in anything... I'm just pointing out that your shouty knee-jerk reaction to the concept of removing local isn't particularly rational. A sensible person would try and come up with ideas for better intel tools, which require some input from the user to function. There are hundreds of ideas you COULD have, to add to the conversation constructively, but instead you're bawling at CCP and calling people names. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died? |
Miss Rabblt
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:11:00 -
[39]
Originally by: Jemima Puddle**** I would love to know the trick to putting a point on someone while cloaked. Alas I am too dumb to match your intellect.
yea. you right. you are dumb.
hint: Sb (and some other ships) has 0 (ZERO) time to sensor recalibration after uncloaking.
Still need help with understanding?
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Marchocias
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:13:00 -
[40]
Edited by: Marchocias on 19/08/2011 12:14:18
Originally by: Miss Rabblt
Originally by: Jemima Puddle**** I would love to know the trick to putting a point on someone while cloaked. Alas I am too dumb to match your intellect.
yea. you right. you are dumb.
hint: Sb (and some other ships) has 0 (ZERO) time to sensor recalibration after uncloaking.
Still need help with understanding?
You still have to be uncloaked to actually put it on though. Calling someone dumb when they are technically correct isn't exactly appropriate. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died? |
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:13:00 -
[41]
Originally by: Miss Rabblt
yea. you right. you are dumb.
hint: Sb (and some other ships) has 0 (ZERO) time to sensor recalibration after uncloaking.
Still need help with understanding?
Many have tried and all have failed to lock me before I hit warp.
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Azhpol
Gallente Casa Del Wombat
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:16:00 -
[42]
Originally by: Marchocias
Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: Marchocias Er... you do understand that other things can be created to fill the intel-hole left by removing local, right?
Why not try and imagine other ways in which fight might be found, rather than relying on an obviously flawed mechanic?
And you're putting your faith into CCP to develop that "other thing".
I'm not putting my faith in anything... I'm just pointing out that your shouty knee-jerk reaction to the concept of removing local isn't particularly rational. A sensible person would try and come up with ideas for better intel tools, which require some input from the user to function. There are hundreds of ideas you COULD have, to add to the conversation constructively, but instead you're bawling at CCP and calling people names.
You are putting your faith, actually, because you are assuming that whatever else will be better than what we have now. This has never been the case in eve, any mechanic that is revamped, improved, or replaced ends up only being half developed and a quarter implemented. I'd rather have the devil I know, personally. ----------------------------------------------- I don't post on an alt, I post on my forum main! |
Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:18:00 -
[43]
Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 12:00:03 Op is an idiot
Removing local and enhancing D-scan might actually save non-blobbing style PVP. People who oppose it tend to be scared of a universe where they can't instantly see a local full of blues with 0 effort and risk on their part.
Again, you're not reading.
Take a few minutes... read what I've written.
Removing local removes one of the tools used to FIND fights.
The fights I've found in the north > western half > south have all been encounters where similar sized fleets of 10 > 30 dudes come together and get a fight.
Blobs these days happen over strategic objectives. Not over a gate.
* Takes a napkin and wipes the drool from Zagdul's bottom lip
I read it just fine, it is the same drivel that gets argued over and over again and quit frankly its complete bull****. An enhanced Dscan and an improved map/statistics would be an improvement over todays current "local intel gathering" fail mechanics.
Now where as you do whatever it is you do in EVE... I actually roam and find fights every day...
U know what I do?
1. I check the map FIRST to see what to expect in the destination systems and more often enough it is bugged.
2. As soon as I jump into a system and hit the D-scan first off to see if anything is hiding just off grid.
3. Local count can be 5 or it can be 50 I don't really care because scoring a kill is not about how many are in system, it is what I can find on D-scan. Fast ships for the win baby, no worries about blobs or carrier hot drops when your whole gang can do 2,000 M/S. Catch me if you can.
So you see... you just don't realize of "pvp-carebear-failsauce" your assertion actually is. Nor do I expect you to, some people just don't get it and never will. So just keep on blobbing and be a happier "PVP-bear"
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Marchocias
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:24:00 -
[44]
Originally by: Azhpol You are putting your faith, actually, because you are assuming that whatever else will be better than what we have now. This has never been the case in eve, any mechanic that is revamped, improved, or replaced ends up only being half developed and a quarter implemented. I'd rather have the devil I know, personally.
So, your saying that because (in your opinion) CCP never do anything right, that this is an appropriate reason to cut off any further debate about how the game might be improved? How... progressive. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died? |
N'oah
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:27:00 -
[45]
Originally by: Zagdul Removing local is the most R E T A R D E D idea CCP has ever come up with.
Local helps you FIND fights and the way null is right now, most people put a gang together and can't find one. This will make finding PVP HARDER not EASIER.
It will make ganking easier, but that's not PVP, that's PvCB.
Not only that, but this is going to make black ops easy as, well, you never saw us coming, you didn't see us jump into system and well, you don't have our fleet scouted within range either, cause it's cloaked and you have no local.
Removing local is a bad idea and the morons who make the claim that a delayed local, like in wormholes, is a good idea are dumb as they don't think about how unbalanced and boring null/low sec will be when/if they do.
It doesn't help gang warfare in the slightest.
When I take out a 10-20 man gang, we find our hostiles by going into local/intel channels (which are reported by local counts and normally inaccurate ), counting how many bad dudes and deciding to engage or not.
Without local, and by using an "improved scan system" you're now turning, what could be a fast, fun moving gang into a slow, boring one cause you gotta put your faith into a system we're counting on CCP to develop to function as intended.
Good luck
Local works, leave it.
The tears generated from black ops will be glorious, however, this will be niche and short lived. The rest of EVE Online combat will be difficult and hard to find. You will in essence, ruin finding small gangs to fight, just as there is an upswing on small gang warfare.
Its like..Everything you say here is a good argument to bury local forever. When did Eve start attracting lazy wow bunnies anyway?
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:35:00 -
[46]
Edited by: Aelius on 19/08/2011 12:38:57
I just need to reply again to this thread...
I will give a hypothetical situation, with and without local.
With Local:
You "Zagdul" come to an hostile system... asa you enter system you notice X amounts of hostiles in local. You press D-Scan and see a hulk fleet and some cans.
You rapidly warp to the belts... but too late... they all warped out before u could get there.
You wait in system, with the hope that they resume the mining... but nothing happens... BUT you waited too long... soon you and your 6 buddies look at local and see a 20 hostiles entering system... and they don't have hulks...
You are forced to flee without engage (because you aren't stupid to go 7 vs 20)
End result = 0 ships lost to PVP, and no fight.
Without Local:
You "Zagdul" come to an hostile system... asa you enter system you notice X amounts of hostiles on D-Scan and see a hulk fleet and some cans.
You rapidly warp to the belts... Yep they are still there mining away, because they hadn't see it coming. You gank some hulks and get some pods.
You wait in system, with the hope that more action arrives... soon you and your 6 buddies using D-Scan notice more hostiles arrive with combat ships to avenge they fallen comrades... You count around 10 ships (they think you are only 3 because you only used 3 ships to gank the hulks)
Using superior tactics you and your buddies are able to get into a fight 10 VS 7... and because you have a better fleet (you had Falcon present that they didn't knew it was there) you are able to get a good victory over them.
End result: Several Hulks and pods destroyed, a few more combat ships destroyed on both parts and a good fight that you managed to win.
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:36:00 -
[47]
Local has gone from being used as a tool to being used by tools. It's a drug addiction people are afraid to break. There are a variety of means of gathering intel without relying on the momma-bird of local regurgitating it directly into your crop.
CCP should experiment with a "local down for two weeks for preventive maintenance" period and see how it goes. Would be interesting...
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Killer Gandry
Caldari Shadow of the Pain
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:36:00 -
[48]
Let me translate the OP to a langage everyone can understand.
"I have a dream, a dream in which me and my friends get easy targets thrown into our laps without effort or risk." "I have a dream, a dream in which me and my friends don't get hotdropped or pulled into a fight we can't win." "I have a dream, a dream in which all this can be accomplished without having the need to use more than one braincell."
Do not fear death so much but rather the inadequate life. |
Billy Endashi
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:41:00 -
[49]
yeah, make null a little bit scary. remove the local.
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Azhpol
Gallente Casa Del Wombat
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:41:00 -
[50]
Originally by: Marchocias
Originally by: Azhpol You are putting your faith, actually, because you are assuming that whatever else will be better than what we have now. This has never been the case in eve, any mechanic that is revamped, improved, or replaced ends up only being half developed and a quarter implemented. I'd rather have the devil I know, personally.
So, your saying that because (in your opinion) CCP never do anything right, that this is an appropriate reason to cut off any further debate about how the game might be improved? How... progressive.
My stance is that we should push from a new system that will likely be deployed in a broken state because people are hounding CCP to make it go live ASAP, instead of leaving it alone til they have a chance to make something that actually works. Personally, I'd rather they fix things alot more broken before changing something that, when you get down to it, works as long as afk cloakers get to stay too(supercap proliferation and moongoo bottlenecks come to mind)
Can't say if it ain't broke, don't fix it, but it is not low hanging fruit(a fix will not be as easy as any of us like) nor is it game breaking the way other things are. We NEED the ability to gather intel in a passive way, or no one will live in 0.0 because we will have to spend all our time gathering said intel. No one is going to hold sov if we aren't able to tell, easily, when someone come into our space so we can defend. The only people who talk about how easy etc it is are talking about single ganks and jumping carebears, no one has actually told how gangs would end up fighting.
baltec, your a goon, can you imagine trying to organize a group based on 'we think someone might be here, but we can't be certain because we have no way of gathering intel without banning people from pve'? Its hard enough to get a goon fleet thats together to keep flying in the same direction :P ----------------------------------------------- I don't post on an alt, I post on my forum main! |
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0oO0oOoOo0o
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:43:00 -
[51]
That's good if true. I'm tired of those "OMG !! 35 reds in local, we have 32 in fleet, let's run, they came in superior numbers !!11!!".
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Ceelah
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:43:00 -
[52]
Edited by: Ceelah on 19/08/2011 12:46:37
Originally by: Killer Gandry Let me translate the OP to a langage everyone can understand.
"I have a dream, a dream in which me and my friends get easy targets thrown into our laps without effort or risk." "I have a dream, a dream in which me and my friends don't get hotdropped or pulled into a fight we can't win." "I have a dream, a dream in which all this can be accomplished without having the need to use more than one braincell."
BLAM!!!! SPLOOOEY!!!!
Dream dies to glass tank Nemesis because brilliant public speaker was semi-afk in nullsec instead of spamming D-Scan. |
Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:44:00 -
[53]
Originally by: Aelius Edited by: Aelius on 19/08/2011 12:38:57
I just need to reply again to this thread...
I will give a hypothetical situation, with and without local.
With Local:
You "Zagdul" come to an hostile system... asa you enter system you notice X amounts of hostiles in local. You press D-Scan and see a hulk fleet and some cans.
You rapidly warp to the belts... but too late... they all warped out before u could get there.
You wait in system, with the hope that they resume the mining... but nothing happens... BUT you waited too long... soon you and your 6 buddies look at local and see a 20 hostiles entering system... and they don't have hulks...
You are forced to flee without engage (because you aren't stupid to go 7 vs 20)
End result = 0 ships lost to PVP, and no fight.
Without Local:
You "Zagdul" come to an hostile system... asa you enter system you notice X amounts of hostiles on D-Scan and see a hulk fleet and some cans.
You rapidly warp to the belts... Yep they are still there mining away, because they hadn't see it coming. You gank some hulks and get some pods.
You wait in system, with the hope that more action arrives... soon you and your 6 buddies using D-Scan notice more hostiles arrive with combat ships to avenge they fallen comrades... You count around 10 ships (they think you are only 3 because you only used 3 ships to gank the hulks)
Using superior tactics you and your buddies are able to get into a fight 10 VS 7... and because you have a better fleet (you had Falcon present that they didn't knew it was there) you are able to get a good victory over them.
End result: Several Hulks and pods destroyed, a few more combat ships destroyed on both parts and a good fight that you managed to win.
Another hypothetical situation: 1. You are ratting in your ship, whatever it is. 2. Recon decloaks and bumps you. 3. Recon lights a covert cyno. 4. You are ****d by a black ops fleet.
You lose a ship and you had no chance to avoid this at any time. It would be fun for black ops, perhaps I would even fly my widow, but all the economic activities in null would halt.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:47:00 -
[54]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Another hypothetical situation: 1. You are ratting in your ship, whatever it is. 2. Recon decloaks and bumps you. 3. Recon lights a covert cyno. 4. You are ****d by a black ops fleet.
You lose a ship and you had no chance to avoid this at any time. It would be fun for black ops, perhaps I would even fly my widow, but all the economic activities in null would halt.
Said fleet tries this one too many times and gets couter dropped because they tackled a brick abaddon with a cyno.
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Jenn aSide
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:48:00 -
[55]
Originally by: Signal11th
I actually think it would help small gang warfare but then again all thats probably going to happen is nobody will roam without 30 plus players in their fleet because they are scared of what might in the next system.
I've said it before, but CCP (the MASTERS of unintended consequences) could use a staff psychologist to go along with that economist lol.
People are generally risk-averse. People know carebears are, but even PVPrs are, most will not commit to a fight unless the odds are very much in their favor of winning. Taking away local will do for pvp what taking away concord would do for hi-sec......
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:49:00 -
[56]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Another hypothetical situation: 1. You are ratting in your ship, whatever it is. 2. Recon decloaks and bumps you. 3. Recon lights a covert cyno. 4. You are ****d by a black ops fleet.
You lose a ship and you had no chance to avoid this at any time. It would be fun for black ops, perhaps I would even fly my widow, but all the economic activities in null would halt.
Wow, I must have been doing it wrong back when I ratted. My ship was always moving, which would have made it harder for someone to decloak and bump right away. Of course, I'd still have to align and warp and hope I wasn't scrammed, but hey, that's like life in wormholes. You never know when it's coming and hope you can stay alert enough to react when it does.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Ceelah
|
Posted - 2011.08.19 12:49:00 -
[57]
Edited by: Ceelah on 19/08/2011 12:49:28
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Another hypothetical situation: 1. You are ratting in your ship, whatever it is. 2. Recon decloaks and bumps you. 3. Recon lights a covert cyno. 4. You are ****d by a black ops fleet.
You lose a ship and you had no chance to avoid this at any time. It would be fun for black ops, perhaps I would even fly my widow, but all the economic activities in null would halt.
Not really, because that is the nature of EVE and people who know how to EVE (and enjoy it) accept it. Economic activites continue as before. |
Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
|
Posted - 2011.08.19 12:49:00 -
[58]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Another hypothetical situation: 1. You are ratting in your ship, whatever it is. 2. Recon decloaks and bumps you. 3. Recon lights a covert cyno. 4. You are ****d by a black ops fleet.
You lose a ship and you had no chance to avoid this at any time. It would be fun for black ops, perhaps I would even fly my widow, but all the economic activities in null would halt.
So what your saying is that you were not paying attention to your overview, you were no where near being aligned to anything and you are also saying that ships that jump a Cyno have 0 delay from the time that you see them to the time that they can lock you?
U fail to. Get better at eve.
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:54:00 -
[59]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Another hypothetical situation: 1. You are ratting in your ship, whatever it is. 2. Recon decloaks and bumps you. 3. Recon lights a covert cyno. 4. You are ****d by a black ops fleet.
You lose a ship and you had no chance to avoid this at any time. It would be fun for black ops, perhaps I would even fly my widow, but all the economic activities in null would halt.
Wow, I must have been doing it wrong back when I ratted. My ship was always moving, which would have made it harder for someone to decloak and bump right away. Of course, I'd still have to align and warp and hope I wasn't scrammed, but hey, that's like life in wormholes. You never know when it's coming and hope you can stay alert enough to react when it does.
Yes, except you have to probe out every exit in a wormhole, you can't simply go an a roam through all the systems. Not to mention you can't hotdrop in a wormhole.
I'm all for removal of local, I'm just scared that CCP will **** it up by not replacing it by any other tool.
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Jenn aSide
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:54:00 -
[60]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Another hypothetical situation: 1. You are ratting in your ship, whatever it is. 2. Recon decloaks and bumps you. 3. Recon lights a covert cyno. 4. You are ****d by a black ops fleet.
You lose a ship and you had no chance to avoid this at any time. It would be fun for black ops, perhaps I would even fly my widow, but all the economic activities in null would halt.
Said fleet tries this one too many times and gets couter dropped because they tackled a brick abaddon with a cyno.
Which is moot the damage is done. How many people would stay in null sec to rat under such a situation where there is NO hope of defending yourself when you could just plop that ratting alt in empire and make boatlods of isk in incursions or slightly smaller boatloads in missions in near perfect safety?
If you thought the anom nerf was bad (I still know lots of people who moved alts to empire to make isk), remove local and see what happens lol.
Very Very short sighted thinking here. CCP would litterally have to change the way cloaking and maybe even warping works to keep from killing null sec. Delayed local only works in wormholes because you can't get into a wormhole via a gate.
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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:57:00 -
[61]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 12:57:22
Originally by: Jenn aSide Delayed local only works in wormholes because you can't get into a wormhole via a gate.
You can't get into your main sanctum system via a gate?
When did that happen
For god's sake learn to defend your assets you loathsome destroyers of all fun in EVE Online.
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:57:00 -
[62]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Another hypothetical situation: 1. You are ratting in your ship, whatever it is. 2. Recon decloaks and bumps you. 3. Recon lights a covert cyno. 4. You are ****d by a black ops fleet.
You lose a ship and you had no chance to avoid this at any time. It would be fun for black ops, perhaps I would even fly my widow, but all the economic activities in null would halt.
So what your saying is that you were not paying attention to your overview, you were no where near being aligned to anything and you are also saying that ships that jump a Cyno have 0 delay from the time that you see them to the time that they can lock you?
U fail to. Get better at eve.
Like I said, recon bumps you, alignment is gone. After that even a fast ship would need a few seconds to align. And if you are ratting in anything bigger than bs then you are most definitely doomed.
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.19 12:59:00 -
[63]
Edited by: Aelius on 19/08/2011 13:09:29
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Another hypothetical situation: 1. You are ratting in your ship, whatever it is. 2. Recon decloaks and bumps you. 3. Recon lights a covert cyno. 4. You are ****d by a black ops fleet.
You lose a ship and you had no chance to avoid this at any time. It would be fun for black ops, perhaps I would even fly my widow, but all the economic activities in null would halt.
Why the hell do i need a cyno and bumping??! a few bombers and some Tengus can do just the same or any other combination of covert ops... hell i will scramble you so fast that even aligned you will have a very hard time to get out before the point hits you.
And BTW... YES you have ways to avoid this, if you are smart... just plant a few cans/probes around your ship at a considerable distance to uncloak that ship. or use the asteroids to your advantage to do the same... and watch D-Scan. Use some stabs on your PVE setup (0.0 rats are butter compared to sleepers so you can do it)... Ofcourse none of the above is 100% secure... in comparison with the 100% secure all seeing Local right?!
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
|
Posted - 2011.08.19 13:00:00 -
[64]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 13:00:43
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Like I said, recon bumps you, alignment is gone. After that even a fast ship would need a few seconds to align. And if you are ratting in anything bigger than bs then you are most definitely doomed.
I am just going to come right out an say it, you are imagining this scenario in your head. That technique will work like 1 out of 10 tries if the target is doing what he or she is supposed to be doing. For cereal.
AND.... RAT IN A PVP CAPABLE SHIP!!!!
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:00:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Jenn aSide
Which is moot the damage is done. How many people would stay in null sec to rat under such a situation where there is NO hope of defending yourself when you could just plop that ratting alt in empire and make boatlods of isk in incursions or slightly smaller boatloads in missions in near perfect safety?
If you thought the anom nerf was bad (I still know lots of people who moved alts to empire to make isk), remove local and see what happens lol.
Very Very short sighted thinking here. CCP would litterally have to change the way cloaking and maybe even warping works to keep from killing null sec. Delayed local only works in wormholes because you can't get into a wormhole via a gate.
It wouldn't be moot to the black ops people who lost their ships to the trap. Do this a few times and they would most likely go somewhere else to do it. Just like the AFK campers that gave up after I killed them a few times.
The loss of local will only force the spineless into high sec which is fine by me because it means more room for me.
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Sandviched
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:02:00 -
[66]
10/10 you seemed to have got a lot of people conned..
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bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:04:00 -
[67]
Removing local would also come with a huge bonus never mentioned here yet: No more whine threads over AFK cloakers
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:04:00 -
[68]
Originally by: Aelius
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Another hypothetical situation: 1. You are ratting in your ship, whatever it is. 2. Recon decloaks and bumps you. 3. Recon lights a covert cyno. 4. You are ****d by a black ops fleet.
You lose a ship and you had no chance to avoid this at any time. It would be fun for black ops, perhaps I would even fly my widow, but all the economic activities in null would halt.
Why the hell do i need a cyno and bumping??! a few bombers and some Tengus can do just the same or any other combination of covert ops... hell i will scramble you so fast that even aligned you will have a very hard time to get out before the point hits you.
Because that's what the cool kids do, and also it's easier to slip in a single ship.
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:06:00 -
[69]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
AND.... RAT IN A PVP CAPABLE SHIP!!!!
When CCP will give regular rats a sleeper AI I will do that. Until then any PVP capable ship is absolutely useless for ratting.
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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:07:00 -
[70]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 13:07:45
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
AND.... RAT IN A PVP CAPABLE SHIP!!!!
When CCP will give regular rats a sleeper AI I will do that. Until then any PVP capable ship is absolutely useless for ratting.
Says you. It works just fine on my end. Maybe you need more Sp in the correct combinations?
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Jenn aSide
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:08:00 -
[71]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 12:57:22
Originally by: Jenn aSide Delayed local only works in wormholes because you can't get into a wormhole via a gate.
You can't get into your main sanctum system via a gate?
???
English next time lol.
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Jenn aSide
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:12:00 -
[72]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Jenn aSide
Which is moot the damage is done. How many people would stay in null sec to rat under such a situation where there is NO hope of defending yourself when you could just plop that ratting alt in empire and make boatlods of isk in incursions or slightly smaller boatloads in missions in near perfect safety?
If you thought the anom nerf was bad (I still know lots of people who moved alts to empire to make isk), remove local and see what happens lol.
Very Very short sighted thinking here. CCP would litterally have to change the way cloaking and maybe even warping works to keep from killing null sec. Delayed local only works in wormholes because you can't get into a wormhole via a gate.
It wouldn't be moot to the black ops people who lost their ships to the trap. Do this a few times and they would most likely go somewhere else to do it. Just like the AFK campers that gave up after I killed them a few times.
The loss of local will only force the spineless into high sec which is fine by me because it means more room for me.
As I said, short sighted thinking. I actully LIKE having people to shoot at. As it is now we have to go at least 12 jumps to have a hope of someone being around.
The goal should be MORE fights, not less. As it is now we can still jump in to a system and have a chance at a juicy target in a sanctum or haven (especially if they are dumb enough to get stuck on something and can't warp, it still happens lol).
With no local there might be LESS of this (because of even more people fleeing to empire to make 100mil an hour in an incursion), and that's just stupid.
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Newt Rondanse
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:13:00 -
[73]
Doing away with local does away with public tear harvests, and tears shared are all the sweeter.
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:13:00 -
[74]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Originally by: Aelius
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Another hypothetical situation: 1. You are ratting in your ship, whatever it is. 2. Recon decloaks and bumps you. 3. Recon lights a covert cyno. 4. You are ****d by a black ops fleet.
You lose a ship and you had no chance to avoid this at any time. It would be fun for black ops, perhaps I would even fly my widow, but all the economic activities in null would halt.
Why the hell do i need a cyno and bumping??! a few bombers and some Tengus can do just the same or any other combination of covert ops... hell i will scramble you so fast that even aligned you will have a very hard time to get out before the point hits you.
Because that's what the cool kids do, and also it's easier to slip in a single ship.
And BTW... YES you have ways to avoid this, if you are smart... just plant a few cans/probes around your ship at a considerable distance to uncloak that ship. or use the asteroids to your advantage to do the same... and watch D-Scan. Use some stabs on your PVE setup (0.0 rats are butter compared to sleepers so you can do it)... Ofcourse none of the above is 100% secure... in comparison with the 100% secure all seeing Local right?!
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:17:00 -
[75]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 13:19:03 Target: "Oh my god I am tackled what do I do!!!" Friend 1: "Dear god I don't know!!!" Friend 2: "sorry bud" The other 10 in system: "Meh, he is screwed who cares" The 7 in the neighboring system: "That's one jump away I'll just dock up" The 8 others 4 jumps away in the next outpost: "LOL that moron"
Target dies in a fire...
The problem? Local creates an easy peasy environment where you are not required to defend your assets only your massive EHP sov structures from supercapitals. That is a big problem for any game. Defending your space, defending your people and defending your faucets of ISK should be priority 1 in nullsec.
If you can't handle that move over because someone else will be able to.
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Miss Rabblt
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:31:00 -
[76]
Originally by: Marchocias You still have to be uncloaked to actually put it on though. Calling someone dumb when they are technically correct isn't exactly appropriate.
well. technically i didn't call him "dumb". i have just writed it on internet forum targeted something virtual named "avatar".
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:35:00 -
[77]
Originally by: Aelius
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Originally by: Aelius
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Another hypothetical situation: 1. You are ratting in your ship, whatever it is. 2. Recon decloaks and bumps you. 3. Recon lights a covert cyno. 4. You are ****d by a black ops fleet.
You lose a ship and you had no chance to avoid this at any time. It would be fun for black ops, perhaps I would even fly my widow, but all the economic activities in null would halt.
Why the hell do i need a cyno and bumping??! a few bombers and some Tengus can do just the same or any other combination of covert ops... hell i will scramble you so fast that even aligned you will have a very hard time to get out before the point hits you.
Because that's what the cool kids do, and also it's easier to slip in a single ship.
And BTW... YES you have ways to avoid this, if you are smart... just plant a few cans/probes around your ship at a considerable distance to uncloak that ship. or use the asteroids to your advantage to do the same... and watch D-Scan. Use some stabs on your PVE setup (0.0 rats are butter compared to sleepers so you can do it)... Ofcourse none of the above is 100% secure... in comparison with the 100% secure all seeing Local right?!
Stabs? Lol. That would seriously reduce dps and also isk/h. Cans? Good luck with that if you are moving. Asteroids? I'd hate to get stuck on one if I have to warp off. D-scan? I did that while living in a wh, but it's maddening.
The problem is not that it would be a certain suicide to rat in null without local, but that there's no good reason to increase your chance of losing a ship over only slight increase in profit over highsec. Not to mention wh's are more profitable and if suddenly all null is without local, you might as well go there, as they would become safer.
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Spurty
Caldari V0LTA VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:40:00 -
[78]
Edited by: Spurty on 19/08/2011 13:41:08 Scout jumps into a system:
Scout: only one ship on d scan, warping to his belt ... He's here.. Tackled.. Warp to me
Two things happen
20 man welp fleet jumps in
300 people pile out of the station and warp to bait
The next couple of seconds are initially interesting, but after a month of this we get...
... Bring back local FFS ...
Yet we all know, once it's gone, it ain't coming back in under two years lol Happy Birthday! |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:44:00 -
[79]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Stabs? Lol. That would seriously reduce dps and also isk/h.Cans? Good luck with that if you are moving. Asteroids? I'd hate to get stuck on one if I have to warp off. D-scan? I did that while living in a wh, but it's maddening.
I think the bolded part shows where the real problem lies, and it's not the fault of local, afk cloaking, whatever.
You don't want to adapt. You want easy comfort mode, in null sec.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:45:00 -
[80]
Originally by: Spurty Edited by: Spurty on 19/08/2011 13:41:08 Scout jumps into a system:
Scout: only one ship on d scan, warping to his belt ... He's here.. Tackled.. Warp to me
Two things happen
20 man welp fleet jumps in
300 people pile out of the station and warp to bait
The next couple of seconds are initially interesting, but after a month of this we get...
... Bring back local FFS ...
Yet we all know, once it's gone, it ain't coming back in under two years lol
So a 20 man gank squad can't kill a single ship and warp off before the 300man team from a station (it's hard enough getting 20 people to undock) arrives to kill them? Whats the 20 man team flying .badgers?
That stuff happens all the time "with" a local and nobody bothers to come out of the station.
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Tiven loves Tansien
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:46:00 -
[81]
I hope they remove local from hi-sec too
I really do Signature removed for discussion player bans. Zymurgist |
Jenn aSide
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:47:00 -
[82]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
The problem is not that it would be a certain suicide to rat in null without local, but that there's no good reason to increase your chance of losing a ship over only slight increase in profit over highsec. Not to mention wh's are more profitable and if suddenly all null is without local, you might as well go there, as they would become safer.
Well said. That's the main point.
It's not that I don't see things ever changing, hell, GOOD changes would be great. Life in null isn't supposed to be safe or even easy.
But there is a point when you go to far. Delayed local in null sec while not changing the insane amounts you can make in the safety of hi-sec or the myriad ways you can already gank null sec ratters would have a chilling effect on null sec. That's not an improvement at all.
Me, I'd adjust just like I have after the anom nerf, but there are already to few targets in null to begin with.
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Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:49:00 -
[83]
Originally by: Jenn aSide
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
The problem is not that it would be a certain suicide to rat in null without local, but that there's no good reason to increase your chance of losing a ship over only slight increase in profit over highsec. Not to mention wh's are more profitable and if suddenly all null is without local, you might as well go there, as they would become safer.
Well said. That's the main point.
It's not that I don't see things ever changing, hell, GOOD changes would be great. Life in null isn't supposed to be safe or even easy.
But there is a point when you go to far. Delayed local in null sec while not changing the insane amounts you can make in the safety of hi-sec or the myriad ways you can already gank null sec ratters would have a chilling effect on null sec. That's not an improvement at all.
Me, I'd adjust just like I have after the anom nerf, but there are already to few targets in null to begin with.
If they remove local in null I would be quite happy for 0.0 to receive a buff in rat bounties. More risk more reward and all that
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Miss Rabblt
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:53:00 -
[84]
Edited by: Miss Rabblt on 19/08/2011 13:54:30
Originally by: Signal11th So a 20 man gank squad can't kill a single ship and warp off before the 300man team from a station (it's hard enough getting 20 people to undock) arrives to kill them?
yea. because "300 ships bait fleet" is sitting cloaked 30km away. as tackler took target and d-scan is spiked by enemy ships fleet just uncloaks and prepares to fight. By the time gank lands on grid sensor recalibration finished and fleet is ready to action.... Tackler see what's going on but nothing can stop ships already in warp.....
Well. i'm starting to like this idea.
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:56:00 -
[85]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Stabs? Lol. That would seriously reduce dps and also isk/h.Cans? Good luck with that if you are moving. Asteroids? I'd hate to get stuck on one if I have to warp off. D-scan? I did that while living in a wh, but it's maddening.
I think the bolded part shows where the real problem lies, and it's not the fault of local, afk cloaking, whatever.
You don't want to adapt. You want easy comfort mode, in null sec.
Null is not wh, it's not that profitable, if by doing sanctums in null I only get a slight increase in profit from level 4 missions, risk should also increase only slightly.
For outright removal in local to make sense you should at the very least double the bounties.
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Takamori Maruyama
Amarr Red Federation RvB - RED Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:57:00 -
[86]
Hey guys whats going on in this intelligent and logical thread?
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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:58:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Jenn aSide
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
The problem is not that it would be a certain suicide to rat in null without local, but that there's no good reason to increase your chance of losing a ship over only slight increase in profit over highsec. Not to mention wh's are more profitable and if suddenly all null is without local, you might as well go there, as they would become safer.
Well said. That's the main point.
It's not that I don't see things ever changing, hell, GOOD changes would be great. Life in null isn't supposed to be safe or even easy.
But there is a point when you go to far. Delayed local in null sec while not changing the insane amounts you can make in the safety of hi-sec or the myriad ways you can already gank null sec ratters would have a chilling effect on null sec. That's not an improvement at all.
Me, I'd adjust just like I have after the anom nerf, but there are already to few targets in null to begin with.
NOT WELL SAID
This is complete bull****. Gathering together and defending both your space and each other would improve the game. If you want more isk and less community by all means go to empire, if less people like you lived in null I might be arsed to go take some myself under new mechanics.
And less supercarriers online ofc...
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ITTigerClawIK
Amarr Galactic Rangers Galactic-Rangers
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Posted - 2011.08.19 13:59:00 -
[88]
to first quote wikipedia.
A covert operation (also known as CoveOps or covert ops) is a military, intelligence or law enforcement operation that is carried clandestinely and, often, outside of official channels. Covert operations aim to fulfill their mission objectives without any parties knowing who sponsored or carried out the operation.
know on to the point of; im pretty sure that local intel negates the purpose of carrying out an operation undetected thus why you get mass hysteria whenever someone enters local and you cant see the guy, the purpose of a cov ops ship is to go in undetected, local makes that impossable.
if i had it my way there would be no more local in ANY system and the scanner would be a hell of alot more advanced.
This is coming from a carebear whos director of science and industry btw.
Sig space reclaimed in the name of me -courtesy of Tiggy Personal information removed from sig. Zymurgist |
Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:05:00 -
[89]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Originally by: Jenn aSide
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
The problem is not that it would be a certain suicide to rat in null without local, but that there's no good reason to increase your chance of losing a ship over only slight increase in profit over highsec. Not to mention wh's are more profitable and if suddenly all null is without local, you might as well go there, as they would become safer.
Well said. That's the main point.
It's not that I don't see things ever changing, hell, GOOD changes would be great. Life in null isn't supposed to be safe or even easy.
But there is a point when you go to far. Delayed local in null sec while not changing the insane amounts you can make in the safety of hi-sec or the myriad ways you can already gank null sec ratters would have a chilling effect on null sec. That's not an improvement at all.
Me, I'd adjust just like I have after the anom nerf, but there are already to few targets in null to begin with.
NOT WELL SAID
This is complete bull****. Gathering together and defending both your space and each other would improve the game. If you want more isk and less community by all means go to empire, if less people like you lived in null I might be arsed to go take some myself under new mechanics.
And less supercarriers online ofc...
For people to want to defend that space, it needs to be worth defending.
Give us proper intel tools (dscan is not one of them) increase null profitability and I will be happy to see the local go, until then removing local doesn't make sense.
Agree about the supercarriers though.
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:06:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Stabs? Lol. That would seriously reduce dps and also isk/h.Cans? Good luck with that if you are moving. Asteroids? I'd hate to get stuck on one if I have to warp off. D-scan? I did that while living in a wh, but it's maddening.
I think the bolded part shows where the real problem lies, and it's not the fault of local, afk cloaking, whatever.
You don't want to adapt. You want easy comfort mode, in null sec.
Correct... people just want null to be high isk, low risk and everything done to correct that is bad... Personally i wouldn't mind that CCP removed the bounties on highsec missions and make them lowsec/null exclusive.
Plus 0.0 on high risk (no local) would make the rewards must more valuable since if you are lucky to find a named spawn, the profit would be much greater from the drops. Not to mention the profit from mining ABC on 0.0.
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:11:00 -
[91]
Originally by: Aelius
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Stabs? Lol. That would seriously reduce dps and also isk/h.Cans? Good luck with that if you are moving. Asteroids? I'd hate to get stuck on one if I have to warp off. D-scan? I did that while living in a wh, but it's maddening.
I think the bolded part shows where the real problem lies, and it's not the fault of local, afk cloaking, whatever.
You don't want to adapt. You want easy comfort mode, in null sec.
Correct... people just want null to be high isk, low risk and everything done to correct that is bad... Personally i wouldn't mind that CCP removed the bounties on highsec missions and make them lowsec/null exclusive.
Plus 0.0 on high risk (no local) would make the rewards must more valuable since if you are lucky to find a named spawn, the profit would be much greater from the drops. Not to mention the profit from mining ABC on 0.0.
Yes, sure, I am so eager to hunt for officers. I will get my payout once a month while I die several times during no-drops streak. Not to mention, my love of mining is undying. My army of hulk alts will swarm every null system.
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:21:00 -
[92]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
Originally by: Aelius
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara Stabs? Lol. That would seriously reduce dps and also isk/h.Cans? Good luck with that if you are moving. Asteroids? I'd hate to get stuck on one if I have to warp off. D-scan? I did that while living in a wh, but it's maddening.
I think the bolded part shows where the real problem lies, and it's not the fault of local, afk cloaking, whatever.
You don't want to adapt. You want easy comfort mode, in null sec.
Correct... people just want null to be high isk, low risk and everything done to correct that is bad... Personally i wouldn't mind that CCP removed the bounties on highsec missions and make them lowsec/null exclusive.
Plus 0.0 on high risk (no local) would make the rewards must more valuable since if you are lucky to find a named spawn, the profit would be much greater from the drops. Not to mention the profit from mining ABC on 0.0.
Yes, sure, I am so eager to hunt for officers. I will get my payout once a month while I die several times during no-drops streak. Not to mention, my love of mining is undying. My army of hulk alts will swarm every null system.
So let me see what you want:
1st- You want to make Isk in 0.0 (considered a dangerous part of EVE).
2nd- But you don't want it to be dangerous, because you don't want to die.
3rd- Local provides the n¦2, so you don't want it removed.
4th- "Evolve" and "Adapt" aren't words in your dictionary.
5th- You are a carebear, but you think you are cooler than your highsec counterparts because you operate in nullsec.
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:23:00 -
[93]
Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 14:25:03 Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 14:24:21
Originally by: Aelius 5th- You are a carebear, but you think you are cooler than your highsec counterparts because you operate in nullsec.
QFT... epic win Aelius.
You get a big Brutor Kiss!!! Mwhaaa!!!
@ Jaari Val'Dara A clicky D-scan is stupid, we need something more like a ships radar that has the same range as the D-scan.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:26:00 -
[94]
Originally by: Jenn aSide
As I said, short sighted thinking. I actully LIKE having people to shoot at. As it is now we have to go at least 12 jumps to have a hope of someone being around.
The goal should be MORE fights, not less. As it is now we can still jump in to a system and have a chance at a juicy target in a sanctum or haven (especially if they are dumb enough to get stuck on something and can't warp, it still happens lol).
With no local there might be LESS of this (because of even more people fleeing to empire to make 100mil an hour in an incursion), and that's just stupid.
Those people dont undock to fight anyway so its not much of a loss.
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Zebediah Orly
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:27:00 -
[95]
The only problem with removing local, would be doing missions for pirate factions, if you are in a frig and undock, how do you know there isn't a dictor waiting for you? (i'm talking lvl 1 missions here) I don't mind getting scanned down or scanning people down, but camping outside a station, when you can 'redock' seems to be a gamble to me.
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Marchocias
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:28:00 -
[96]
Originally by: Newt Rondanse Doing away with local does away with public tear harvests, and tears shared are all the sweeter.
You can still have the tear harvests with hidden local, you just dont get the intel. ---- Will 2011-06-24 go down as the day CCP stood still, or the day the dream died? |
Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:28:00 -
[97]
Originally by: Zebediah Orly The only problem with removing local, would be doing missions for pirate factions, if you are in a frig and undock, how do you know there isn't a dictor waiting for you? (i'm talking lvl 1 missions here) I don't mind getting scanned down or scanning people down, but camping outside a station, when you can 'redock' seems to be a gamble to me.
You don't understand how aggression mechanics and undock timers work then do you?
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buee
Gallente Valor Inc. Nulli Secunda
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:29:00 -
[98]
Wtf, where is this information comming from? Since when did CCP decide that removing local should be in any patch?
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Jaari Val'Dara
Caldari Deep Space Nomads Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:35:00 -
[99]
Originally by: Aelius
So let me see what you want:
1st- You want to make Isk in 0.0 (considered a dangerous part of EVE).
2nd- But you don't want it to be dangerous, because you don't want to die.
3rd- Local provides the n¦2, so you don't want it removed.
4th- "Evolve" and "Adapt" aren't words in your dictionary.
5th- You are a carebear, but you think you are cooler than your highsec counterparts because you operate in nullsec.
1. I haven't done a sanctum in quite a while. 2. You wan't to make null way more dangerous while keeping profits low. 3. I'd like local to be removed very much, I would just prefer if it didn't drive out all the economic activities back to high sec. I hate missions so very very much.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:42:00 -
[100]
Originally by: Jaari Val'Dara
1. I haven't done a sanctum in quite a while. 2. You wan't to make null way more dangerous while keeping profits low. 3. I'd like local to be removed very much, I would just prefer if it didn't drive out all the economic activities back to high sec. I hate missions so very very much.
Well then good news!
High sec is getting a nerf
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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:45:00 -
[101]
Originally by: Zagdul Removing local is the most R E T A R D E D idea CCP has ever come up with.
Local helps you FIND fights and the way null is right now, most people put a gang together and can't find one. This will make finding PVP HARDER not EASIER.
It will make ganking easier, but that's not PVP, that's PvCB.
Not only that, but this is going to make black ops easy as, well, you never saw us coming, you didn't see us jump into system and well, you don't have our fleet scouted within range either, cause it's cloaked and you have no local.
Removing local is a bad idea and the morons who make the claim that a delayed local, like in wormholes, is a good idea are dumb as they don't think about how unbalanced and boring null/low sec will be when/if they do.
It doesn't help gang warfare in the slightest.
When I take out a 10-20 man gang, we find our hostiles by going into local/intel channels (which are reported by local counts and normally inaccurate ), counting how many bad dudes and deciding to engage or not.
Without local, and by using an "improved scan system" you're now turning, what could be a fast, fun moving gang into a slow, boring one cause you gotta put your faith into a system we're counting on CCP to develop to function as intended.
Good luck
Local works, leave it.
The tears generated from black ops will be glorious, however, this will be niche and short lived. The rest of EVE Online combat will be difficult and hard to find. You will in essence, ruin finding small gangs to fight, just as there is an upswing on small gang warfare.
I just have this to say about it;
If you are saying what is going to happen when one system gets replaced with another, but do not know what they new system will encompass, you are talking out of your ass. . Adapt and overcome or become a monkey on an evolution poster.
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Jemima Puddlefuck
Caldari In Praise Of Shadows
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:46:00 -
[102]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 14:25:03 Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 14:24:21
Originally by: Aelius 5th- You are a carebear, but you think you are cooler than your highsec counterparts because you operate in nullsec.
QFT... epic win Aelius.
You get a big Brutor Kiss!!! Mwhaaa!!!
@ Jaari Val'Dara A clicky D-scan is stupid, we need something more like a ships radar that has the same range as the D-scan.
I would normally say that would be OP nonsense but if they removed local and provided that in its place it could be awesome. Make it require a certain degree of skill but still let a talented soloer pinpoint targets quickly (WITH EFFORT) and it would be fantastic. You get an idea of the composition of a system but no idea about their alliances or if they are working together (unless they are all at one celestial). Really would be cool. ~~~
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CaldariCitizen19082011
Caldari In Praise Of Shadows
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:46:00 -
[103]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 14:25:03 Edited by: Eternum Praetorian on 19/08/2011 14:24:21
Originally by: Aelius 5th- You are a carebear, but you think you are cooler than your highsec counterparts because you operate in nullsec.
QFT... epic win Aelius.
You get a big Brutor Kiss!!! Mwhaaa!!!
@ Jaari Val'Dara A clicky D-scan is stupid, we need something more like a ships radar that has the same range as the D-scan.
I would normally say that would be OP nonsense but if they removed local and provided that in its place it could be awesome. Make it require a certain degree of skill but still let a talented soloer pinpoint targets quickly (WITH EFFORT) and it would be fantastic. You get an idea of the composition of a system but no idea about their alliances or if they are working together (unless they are all at one celestial). Really would be cool. ~~~
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Eight Sinn
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:47:00 -
[104]
Local I believe was intended for the purposes of communication when CCP put it in, it's being used for Intel now. Given that there are scanning mechanics to find people, with local being gone I would say that you will find more fights than less.
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Zebediah Orly
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Posted - 2011.08.19 14:57:00 -
[105]
Originally by: Eternum Praetorian
Originally by: Zebediah Orly The only problem with removing local, would be doing missions for pirate factions, if you are in a frig and undock, how do you know there isn't a dictor waiting for you? (i'm talking lvl 1 missions here) I don't mind getting scanned down or scanning people down, but camping outside a station, when you can 'redock' seems to be a gamble to me.
You don't understand how aggression mechanics and undock timers work then do you?
It seems you don't really have a clue, let me enlighten you, when you undock in a FRIG you are hardly going to have a long fight are you? or last untill you can dock again, Especially if you get caught in a dictor bubble the moment you undock.
Please know what you are talking about.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:01:00 -
[106]
Originally by: Zebediah Orly
It seems you don't really have a clue, let me enlighten you, when you undock in a FRIG you are hardly going to have a long fight are you? or last untill you can dock again, Especially if you get caught in a dictor bubble the moment you undock.
Please know what you are talking about.
Its funny because you have no idea about the 30 seconds you have where they cannot lock you.
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Jenn aSide
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:07:00 -
[107]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Jenn aSide
As I said, short sighted thinking. I actully LIKE having people to shoot at. As it is now we have to go at least 12 jumps to have a hope of someone being around.
The goal should be MORE fights, not less. As it is now we can still jump in to a system and have a chance at a juicy target in a sanctum or haven (especially if they are dumb enough to get stuck on something and can't warp, it still happens lol).
With no local there might be LESS of this (because of even more people fleeing to empire to make 100mil an hour in an incursion), and that's just stupid.
Those people dont undock to fight anyway so its not much of a loss.
I'd rather have people who don't undock but do pay subs (so that a company in Iceland thinks it's financially viable to keep my favorite pass time going) than to have people who don't pay subs because they don't play the game at all.
Last QEN I read said only 11% of characters lived in null sec. Null sec is my favorite part of the game, fewer people in it means less fun.
Like I said, some very short sighted thinking in this tread. There are a number of good changes CCP could make that would make removing local (and other things I don't care for, like High Sec :) ) not turn into a disaster, and CCP keeps hinting that they are working on such things.
But I don't have much faith that those things would be done. CCP's track record on such things isn't good.
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Raneru
Combat and Recon
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:14:00 -
[108]
Originally by: Zagdul
Local helps you FIND fights and the way null is right now, most people put a gang together and can't find one. This will make finding PVP HARDER not EASIER.
Use the map, it tells you how many people were in space in a system within the last 30 mins, which at least gives you an indication of where to head for a fight.
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Tal Rann
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:29:00 -
[109]
Ha, it's always the same with these 'tough' types. It's fine to gang up on lil ol miners out strollin in the park but everytime stuff happens to ***** your PvP prowess you turn into the lil whinners you really are. No local make it harder for you -aaahhhhh-never mind get over it. More fights you didn't see comin -get into em. Lose some ships -just get some more.
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artsjitaalt
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:31:00 -
[110]
Originally by: Aelius
5th- You are a carebear, but you think you are cooler than your highsec counterparts because you operate in nullsec.
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai .
However I do agree to a point that it will allow for a lot more ganks, especially on carebears since the carebear will have no idea if their FoF.
Originally by: Efraya ITT: Null bears whining about not being able to gather intel via local anymore.
Originally by: Aelius Edited by: Aelius on 19/08/2011 12:38:57
I just need to reply again to this thread...
I will give a hypothetical situation, with and without local.
With Local:
You "Zagdul" come to an hostile system... asa you enter system you notice X amounts of hostiles in local. You press D-Scan and see a hulk fleet and some cans.
You rapidly warp to the belts... but too late... they all warped out before u could get there.
You wait in system, with the hope that they resume the mining... but nothing happens... BUT you waited too long... soon you and your 6 buddies look at local and see a 20 hostiles entering system... and they don't have hulks...
You are forced to flee without engage (because you aren't stupid to go 7 vs 20)
End result = 0 ships lost to PVP, and no fight.
Without Local:
You "Zagdul" come to an hostile system... asa you enter system you notice X amounts of hostiles on D-Scan and see a hulk fleet and some cans.
You rapidly warp to the belts... Yep they are still there mining away, because they hadn't see it coming. You gank some hulks and get some pods.
You wait in system, with the hope that more action arrives... soon you and your 6 buddies using D-Scan notice more hostiles arrive with combat ships to avenge they fallen comrades... You count around 10 ships (they think you are only 3 because you only used 3 ships to gank the hulks)
Using superior tactics you and your buddies are able to get into a fight 10 VS 7... and because you have a better fleet (you had Falcon present that they didn't knew it was there) you are able to get a good victory over them.
End result: Several Hulks and pods destroyed, a few more combat ships destroyed on both parts and a good fight that you managed to win.
Just out of curiosity, where do you think all of these PVP ships are coming from? When you wipe out all of the miners (Which everyone seems to think will be great fun), you'll then be *****ing about the lack of ships and why your tengu now costs 12 billion isk. Then you'll blame CCP for breaking the economy.
When you're blowing up 5 billion isk jump freighters left and right, it won't take very long for the supply chain to dry up and disappear. You seem to be missing the fact that your ability PVP relies on the very carebears you want to kill in this operation.
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:50:00 -
[111]
Edited by: Aelius on 19/08/2011 15:56:34
Originally by: artsjitaalt
Originally by: Aelius
5th- You are a carebear, but you think you are cooler than your highsec counterparts because you operate in nullsec.
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai .
However I do agree to a point that it will allow for a lot more ganks, especially on carebears since the carebear will have no idea if their FoF.
Originally by: Efraya ITT: Null bears whining about not being able to gather intel via local anymore.
Originally by: Aelius Edited by: Aelius on 19/08/2011 12:38:57
I just need to reply again to this thread...
I will give a hypothetical situation, with and without local.
With Local:
You "Zagdul" come to an hostile system... asa you enter system you notice X amounts of hostiles in local. You press D-Scan and see a hulk fleet and some cans.
You rapidly warp to the belts... but too late... they all warped out before u could get there.
You wait in system, with the hope that they resume the mining... but nothing happens... BUT you waited too long... soon you and your 6 buddies look at local and see a 20 hostiles entering system... and they don't have hulks...
You are forced to flee without engage (because you aren't stupid to go 7 vs 20)
End result = 0 ships lost to PVP, and no fight.
Without Local:
You "Zagdul" come to an hostile system... asa you enter system you notice X amounts of hostiles on D-Scan and see a hulk fleet and some cans.
You rapidly warp to the belts... Yep they are still there mining away, because they hadn't see it coming. You gank some hulks and get some pods.
You wait in system, with the hope that more action arrives... soon you and your 6 buddies using D-Scan notice more hostiles arrive with combat ships to avenge they fallen comrades... You count around 10 ships (they think you are only 3 because you only used 3 ships to gank the hulks)
Using superior tactics you and your buddies are able to get into a fight 10 VS 7... and because you have a better fleet (you had Falcon present that they didn't knew it was there) you are able to get a good victory over them.
End result: Several Hulks and pods destroyed, a few more combat ships destroyed on both parts and a good fight that you managed to win.
Just out of curiosity, where do you think all of these PVP ships are coming from? When you wipe out all of the miners (Which everyone seems to think will be great fun), you'll then be *****ing about the lack of ships and why your tengu now costs 12 billion isk. Then you'll blame CCP for breaking the economy.
When you're blowing up 5 billion isk jump freighters left and right, it won't take very long for the supply chain to dry up and disappear. You seem to be missing the fact that your ability PVP relies on the very carebears you want to kill in this operation.
No.. you wrong... with the increase of mineral values it may well be worth to mine... nowadays people just use bots... and if that is not breaking the economy my friend, i don't know what is...
It will mean who has the work to mine gets the rewards, not the bots.
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Lazrim
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Posted - 2011.08.19 15:57:00 -
[112]
Newb question here. If d-scan is akin to local then why not just change the name 'local' to 'directional scan'?
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centurion zulu
Phantom Squad Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.08.19 16:12:00 -
[113]
CCP has stated multiple times over the years that removing local isn't going to happen.
They claim it has something to do with their CODE, GM access to their tools, etc. etc.
Not sure what the excitement is about here.
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Selinate
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.08.19 16:17:00 -
[114]
You shouldn't see the black ops coming. It defeats the purpose of a black ops fleet.
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Eofina
Minmatar DEATH'S LEGION Mayhem.
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Posted - 2011.08.19 16:21:00 -
[115]
I'd like to see Local removed or delayed from Low-sec also.
Imagine those tears!
"Evil will always triumph, because good is dumb." ~ Dark Helmet
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MouseBeast
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Posted - 2011.08.19 16:25:00 -
[116]
Thoughts:
This would be a difficult change to apply first the the test server, since it deals more with group psychology rather than a straight-up game mechanic/module/etc.
Mining fleets already have PvP patrols/guards. Why shouldnt PvE folks have to do the same to make their ISK?
'Ship Radar' isn't a horrible idea. How about being able to set your drone orbit distance (to prevent the decloak bump)?
Consider skills that allow ship radar to increase radius (up to whole system)? Also, have said radar allow alerts for things like jump gate activation (if it's within radar scan radius)?
Deployables that can alert their owners to things like gate activation, or just ship presence on the same grid as the deployable?
How about sov upgrades that allow for some more visibility than you would have otherwise? You might not be able to have 5 constantly respawing grav sites in your Industrial systems, but would you sacrifice those for the ability to have jump gate activation flash on your ship's radar?
Apologies for the ramble. There's plenty CCP can do to balance this out game-wise... and plenty that players can do as well. Risk/Reward still reigns supreme.
Just my two cents...
~~(__)8>
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Alayla Nightfall
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Posted - 2011.08.19 16:32:00 -
[117]
I'm all for removing local. Just think how awesome it'd be in Jita.
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Zebediah Orly
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Posted - 2011.08.19 16:34:00 -
[118]
Edited by: Zebediah Orly on 19/08/2011 16:35:00
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Zebediah Orly
It seems you don't really have a clue, let me enlighten you, when you undock in a FRIG you are hardly going to have a long fight are you? or last untill you can dock again, Especially if you get caught in a dictor bubble the moment you undock.
Please know what you are talking about.
Its funny because you have no idea about the 30 seconds you have where they cannot lock you.
It's funny, because you have no idea, it's not 30 seconds.
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captain dirka
Caldari Sinister Elite Raining Doom
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Posted - 2011.08.19 16:41:00 -
[119]
taking local out of null sec is as stupid as expecting players to not use worm holes for logistics. ccp you will only make your player base even more angry at you. and you will loose more paying subscriptions. listen to your players that pay your light bills...
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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
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Posted - 2011.08.19 16:41:00 -
[120]
Originally by: Zebediah Orly Edited by: Zebediah Orly on 19/08/2011 16:35:00
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Zebediah Orly
It seems you don't really have a clue, let me enlighten you, when you undock in a FRIG you are hardly going to have a long fight are you? or last untill you can dock again, Especially if you get caught in a dictor bubble the moment you undock.
Please know what you are talking about.
Its funny because you have no idea about the 30 seconds you have where they cannot lock you.
It's funny, because you have no idea, it's not 30 seconds.
What's really funny is that you don't have a clue
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Rhinanna
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.08.19 16:42:00 -
[121]
Simple fact
Local removed. Everyone has to spam D-scan every few seconds. People get fed up having to constantly click one button and quit.
Seriously, its fecking annoying!
I'm all for removing local, but it needs a complete scanner overhaul at the same time.
The scanner should automatically (without clicks) show: Number of ships in system - (Not who althrough you could have an option to reveal that to friendlies via transponder) and approx sig size (Mini, Frig, Cruiser, BS, Cap, SCap)
The closer ships get vs your sig strength the more information you get.
There should be a warning when ANY detected warp tunnel opens to on your grid.
Also cloak would really need looking at because without local the cloak is overpowered really.
And for anyone saying that been able to see the number of ships in local or seeing warp tunnels is overpowered, you have to remember that Interceptors warp at 13 au/s, it doesn't take them long to land on your, they would still have MUCH less warning than currently and also brings another usage for cloakies.
Also hot-drops would need to be prevented as well for this local change, otherwise it will just be, SB, point, cyno, hot-drop. Game over. Really no point in playing anything other than Caps. Number of cloaked ships in system - No details at all -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.19 16:55:00 -
[122]
Zag, I couldn't disagree with you more. Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER SO THAT I CAN HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD |
Tali Arayla
Caldari
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Posted - 2011.08.19 17:02:00 -
[123]
Edited by: Tali Arayla on 19/08/2011 17:07:24 Been spending quite a bit of time in wh and spamming the dscan all the time does get annoying, if they added an automatic setting to the dscan which could do a sweep every 30 seconds I would be pleased. No real need to reinvent the wheel in this case.
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bitters much
Nekkid Inc.
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Posted - 2011.08.19 17:04:00 -
[124]
Originally by: Lykouleon Zag, I couldn't disagree with you more.
Another Tengu botter, who is surprised ?
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Jenn aSide
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Posted - 2011.08.19 18:20:00 -
[125]
Originally by: MouseBeast Thoughts:
This would be a difficult change to apply first the the test server, since it deals more with group psychology rather than a straight-up game mechanic/module/etc.
Mining fleets already have PvP patrols/guards. Why shouldnt PvE folks have to do the same to make their ISK?
'Ship Radar' isn't a horrible idea. How about being able to set your drone orbit distance (to prevent the decloak bump)?
Consider skills that allow ship radar to increase radius (up to whole system)? Also, have said radar allow alerts for things like jump gate activation (if it's within radar scan radius)?
Deployables that can alert their owners to things like gate activation, or just ship presence on the same grid as the deployable?
How about sov upgrades that allow for some more visibility than you would have otherwise? You might not be able to have 5 constantly respawing grav sites in your Industrial systems, but would you sacrifice those for the ability to have jump gate activation flash on your ship's radar?
Apologies for the ramble. There's plenty CCP can do to balance this out game-wise... and plenty that players can do as well. Risk/Reward still reigns supreme.
Just my two cents...
~~(__)8>
I could very much go for the ship radar idea. But how cloaking works would have to change. Like maybe changing "cloaking" to "Stealth". So the longer you set your radar (so you can "see" the gate", the less resolution, so you might see gate fire but not detech the ship warping in your direction till it was too late. A tighter radar range would do the opposite, not let you "see" the gate but detect a ship initiating warp.
Like I said, lots of ideas could work and be fun too. I don't know if any o f it will ever happen though. till then local needs to stay. |
Jenn aSide
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Posted - 2011.08.19 18:23:00 -
[126]
Originally by: Rhinanna Simple fact
Local removed. Everyone has to spam D-scan every few seconds. People get fed up having to constantly click one button and quit.
Seriously, its fecking annoying!
Amen, why put up with that for maybe a little more isk than mission running when you can just go to empire.
Quote:
I'm all for removing local, but it needs a complete scanner overhaul at the same time.
The scanner should automatically (without clicks) show: Number of ships in system - (Not who althrough you could have an option to reveal that to friendlies via transponder) and approx sig size (Mini, Frig, Cruiser, BS, Cap, SCap)
The closer ships get vs your sig strength the more information you get.
There should be a warning when ANY detected warp tunnel opens to on your grid.
Also cloak would really need looking at because without local the cloak is overpowered really.
And for anyone saying that been able to see the number of ships in local or seeing warp tunnels is overpowered, you have to remember that Interceptors warp at 13 au/s, it doesn't take them long to land on your, they would still have MUCH less warning than currently and also brings another usage for cloakies.
Also hot-drops would need to be prevented as well for this local change, otherwise it will just be, SB, point, cyno, hot-drop. Game over. Really no point in playing anything other than Caps. Number of cloaked ships in system - No details at all
Amen + 2. |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.19 18:24:00 -
[127]
Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 19/08/2011 18:26:47
Originally by: Tali Arayla Edited by: Tali Arayla on 19/08/2011 17:07:24 Been spending quite a bit of time in wh and spamming the dscan all the time does get annoying, if they added an automatic setting to the dscan which could do a sweep every 30 seconds I would be pleased. No real need to reinvent the wheel in this case.
It does? I hit it out of habit every 10 to 15 seconds at most and don't even realize I'm doing it anymore. Can be a pain when I'm in high sec and all those damnable wrecks show up...
... and who's the damned fool that thinks it's a good idea to give warnings if someone initiates warp to your grid?! What the hell, you want your bots to be uncatchable now? By the gods, please stop talking, you're leaking stupid on the carpet. |
Spurty
Caldari V0LTA VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.19 19:09:00 -
[128]
Originally by: Signal11th
Originally by: Spurty Edited by: Spurty on 19/08/2011 13:41:08 Scout jumps into a system:
Scout: only one ship on d scan, warping to his belt ... He's here.. Tackled.. Warp to me
Two things happen
20 man welp fleet jumps in
300 people pile out of the station and warp to bait
The next couple of seconds are initially interesting, but after a month of this we get...
... Bring back local FFS ...
Yet we all know, once it's gone, it ain't coming back in under two years lol
So a 20 man gank squad can't kill a single ship and warp off before the 300man team from a station (it's hard enough getting 20 people to undock) arrives to kill them? Whats the 20 man team flying .badgers?
That stuff happens all the time "with" a local and nobody bothers to come out of the station.
You seem to think a bait ship, when dead means everyone dock up
It's *bait * no, you won't kill it *before* forces coming often a shorter distance arrive, rep it
Old thinking going to get your fleet welped
(so does bubbling your own guys, but that's a different story eh neverts?)
Happy Birthday! |
Kengutsi Akira
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Posted - 2011.08.19 19:13:00 -
[129]
so where did they say they were gonna do this? Or obvious trollery ------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass" |
Leisen
Caldari Interrobang Inc.
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Posted - 2011.08.19 20:35:00 -
[130]
Don't care whether they remove local or not, I just want it set to delayed, so you can't see everyone in system. Only people that speak.
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Michelle Corin
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Posted - 2011.08.19 20:36:00 -
[131]
Edited by: Michelle Corin on 19/08/2011 20:36:03 Local should be removed from Null Sec. I wish it functioned like WH space.
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Rhinanna
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.08.19 20:59:00 -
[132]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 19/08/2011 18:26:47
Originally by: Tali Arayla Edited by: Tali Arayla on 19/08/2011 17:07:24 Been spending quite a bit of time in wh and spamming the dscan all the time does get annoying, if they added an automatic setting to the dscan which could do a sweep every 30 seconds I would be pleased. No real need to reinvent the wheel in this case.
It does? I hit it out of habit every 10 to 15 seconds at most and don't even realize I'm doing it anymore. Can be a pain when I'm in high sec and all those damnable wrecks show up...
... and who's the damned fool that thinks it's a good idea to give warnings if someone initiates warp to your grid?! What the hell, you want your bots to be uncatchable now? By the gods, please stop talking, you're leaking stupid on the carpet.
And this is worse than them warping out as soon as you enter system instead why?
Try using your brain before accusing others of been dumb, might require some tactics to catch people but still a lot easier than previously. You don't HAVE to start warp from the other side of the solar system you do realise, you can quite easily warp to just off grid then warp onto them or use a cloaky to tackle and they would get virtually no warning. Think it takes about 3 seconds to cover 500km via warp. If they aren't aligned then thats not sufficient time to get out.
There again, you are amarrian so I suppose we can't expect an IQ at least in the double figures from you ;)
-The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.19 21:02:00 -
[133]
Originally by: Kengutsi Akira so where did they say they were gonna do this?
this... is this speculation or what? -------- Dammit, they killed the post where Sreegs says personal attacks are against the rules. I wanted to lol at him for that |
Tokyo Rose
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Posted - 2011.08.19 21:10:00 -
[134]
Five pages of whaa whaa whaa my local backbone is gone and not a peep about the absolute chaos this will cause the botters.
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Kengutsi Akira
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Posted - 2011.08.19 21:37:00 -
[135]
Originally by: Tokyo Rose Five pages of whaa whaa whaa my local backbone is gone and not a peep about the absolute chaos this will cause the botters.
or the chaos the griefers will cause everywhere lol
anyhoo... proof or stfu? Yes its 5 pages of QQ if its just someone trolling by posting the topic. IS there an actual cause for this thread or what?
------------------------------------ "You know, my foot oughta vandilize your ass" |
HaydenJD
Gallente Sons Of 0din Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.08.20 01:20:00 -
[136]
It's a simple case of "If it's not broken, don't try to fix it".
I'm betting most of the people here saying they don't care if local is removed/changed from nul or they want it removed/changed probally don't live in nul. Just becuase you get your arsed kicked for being in someone's system doesn't mean you can change the game mechanics in your favour so you can live a bit longer and not QQ as much.
I for one like the way local works at the moment for nulsec as it's fair for all no matter what is said and If I wanted it more like it is in WH's I would go to a WH. The rest of you should do the same.
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Kewso
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Posted - 2011.08.20 01:26:00 -
[137]
no huge deal
I have a Nostromo N52 gamepad I setup the macro software to automate the directional scanner for me so while im doing stuff on keyboard and mouse the nostromo is keeping the directional scanner going automatically for me
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A Dysfunctional Playground |
Inipinipocoloco
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Posted - 2011.08.20 01:36:00 -
[138]
nullsec is full of whiney *****es, take their local away and let them cry
if u cant adapt u are not fit
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.20 01:39:00 -
[139]
OP you are correct. Small gang pvp does not need to be harder it needs a buff. Removing local will just boost blobbing.
Yes for people who look for good small scale pvp local is very important.
This thread will soon fill up with people who cry every time they show up in their blob and no one comes to fight them. They want local gone so they have a better chance to blob others.
This thread will also fill up with people who's only idea of pvp is ganking pve ships and industrials.
People who say the scanner should automatically update are really just asking for a form of local. But it would still be a boost to blobs because by the time they show up on the scanner they are already in warp about to land on you.
Also its important to know if the other ships are hostile. Otherwise you will spend your time trying to scan someone down just to find out they are friendly. ffs.
The removal of local will definitely be aother huge hit to small scale pvp. Anyone who disagrees just doesn't know what they are talking about or pefer blobs and ganks.
Ok now we can go back to the cool stories "this one time I went into a system with only a few guys and everyone docked up!" Well guys maybe they were in mining barges or maybe they were doing pve and didn't have a point fit on their ships. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Sassums
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.20 02:01:00 -
[140]
No it makes life in Null Sec more dangerous.
Just like removing ABC ores from WH space is stupid.
If us in the wormholes get screwed, I'm glad you are getting screwed as well.
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.08.20 02:17:00 -
[141]
Originally by: centurion zulu CCP has stated multiple times over the years that removing local isn't going to happen.
No, they haven't. They've stated that they're not going to remove it without immediately replacing it with something that serves similar purposes.
Quote: They claim it has something to do with their CODE, GM access to their tools, etc. etc.
No.
Quote: Not sure what the excitement is about here.
The fact that they're working towards a removal of local, and that there is a rather interesting thread going on about what/how to introduce more interesting intel tools that actually provide some gameplay and which opens up for the ability to also have counter-intelligence. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
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Wu Tarot
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Posted - 2011.08.20 02:24:00 -
[142]
Originally by: Tippia The fact that they're working towards a removal of local,
where? I wanna see actual info on this not "omgtheskyisfalling"
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Jackson Millenius
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Posted - 2011.08.20 02:28:00 -
[143]
Bad bots Bad bots,
Whatcha gonna do?
Whatcha gonna do, when they warp on you?
'But I don't want to go among mad people,' said Alice. 'Oh, you can't help that,' said the cat. 'We're all mad here.' |
Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.08.20 02:33:00 -
[144]
Edited by: Tippia on 20/08/2011 02:36:40
Originally by: Wu Tarot where? I wanna see actual info on this not "omgtheskyisfalling"
The CSM meeting minutes from May and the many, many threads about the nullsec revamp plan.
edit: Oh, and it's not a case of the sky falling ù quite the opposite. It's about removing something that inhibits actual gamplay and development of new tools and mechanics, and replacing it with something doesà well, the exact opposite. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
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Jackson Millenius
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Posted - 2011.08.20 02:35:00 -
[145]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Wu Tarot where? I wanna see actual info on this not "omgtheskyisfalling"
The CSM meeting minutes from may and the many, many threads about the nullsec revamp plan.
And I dont know wtf everyone is scared about.
We have delayed local in WH space, and there is an ass ton of pvp that goes down in there. You just need a prober.
'But I don't want to go among mad people,' said Alice. 'Oh, you can't help that,' said the cat. 'We're all mad here.' |
Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.08.20 02:40:00 -
[146]
Originally by: Jackson Millenius And I dont know wtf everyone is scared about.
No longer being spoon-fed. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
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Wu Tarot
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Posted - 2011.08.20 02:47:00 -
[147]
Originally by: Jackson Millenius
We have delayed local in WH space, and there is an ass ton of pvp that goes down in there. You just need a prober.
lol you said ass and probe in the same sentence
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Tuggboat
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Posted - 2011.08.20 05:41:00 -
[148]
Please remove local from Jita
X
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Tetragammatron Prime
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Posted - 2011.08.20 06:09:00 -
[149]
Too many people in null sec use local to completely avoid pvp with the only way around it afk cloaking till they finally can no longer resist the urge for isk and start ratting with neuts in local. That isn't how the game should be.
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Adonis Peverell
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Posted - 2011.08.20 06:41:00 -
[150]
To be honest I'm really excited to see what new scanning system CCP comes up with. I mean, c'mon, we're thousands of years in the future with starships and we still have to hit "scan" every few seconds. So much for the future of ergonomics. I agree though; Local chat is a really dumb cop-out for a real intelligence gathering system. There's no uncertainty, no finesse, and just no fun in watching local. Scouting should be more interactive. Frankly, I think it's really stupid that we have advanced cloaking devices, but we can't just turn off our ship's radio :/ Anyway, I'm looking forward to a change.
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Adonis Peverell
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Posted - 2011.08.20 06:43:00 -
[151]
Originally by: Tetragammatron Prime Edited by: Tetragammatron Prime on 20/08/2011 06:20:09 Too many people in null sec use local to completely avoid pvp with the only way around it afk cloaking till they finally can no longer resist the urge for isk and start ratting with neuts in local. That isn't how the game should be.
I don't see a problem with have delayed local along with an ihub upgrade to have immediate local (make it same kind of requirement as jump bridge perhaps). Ratters can have see what is happening in their upgraded systems and still stay pretty safe. Bots will no longer be able to operate in npc/unupgraded space.
That just means that large alliances would grow even more disproportionately because of their monopoly on "bot safe" space. It just encourages profiting from organized crime.
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Mallak Azaria
Three 6 MaFiA KRYSIS.
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Posted - 2011.08.20 07:04:00 -
[152]
Originally by: Zagdul Removing local is the most ******ED idea CCP has ever come up with.
I stopped reading here. Learn to D-scan.
================================================== I love and hate 0.0 these days and feel CCP is taking a big **** on my chest every time i see super carriers. ~Tipsy McStagger |
Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.20 07:14:00 -
[153]
Originally by: bitters much
Originally by: Lykouleon Zag, I couldn't disagree with you more.
Another Tengu botter, who is surprised ?
I'm pro-removing local. Reading comprehension helps. Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER SO THAT I CAN HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD |
Harener
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Posted - 2011.08.20 08:01:00 -
[154]
Originally by: Mallak Azaria
Originally by: Zagdul Removing local is the most ******ED idea CCP has ever come up with.
I stopped reading here. Learn to D-scan.
How do you dscan cloakies?
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Iggy Stooge
Gallente Federal Navy Academy
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Posted - 2011.08.20 08:10:00 -
[155]
ITT people who haven't thought further than 'woohoo, ill be able to sneak up on people and kill them', without thinking what players reaction to this condition will be. All that removing local will accomplish is to make people even more cautious and fight shy. And yes, I love WH space, but if you can't see the difference between sneaking into a WH, and roaming null, well sorry I can't help.
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.08.20 08:23:00 -
[156]
Originally by: Iggy Stooge All that removing local will accomplish is to make people even more cautious and fight shy.
No more cautious than they are today, since the same tools used to track them down and attack them will be usable to detect the attackers and stay away from them.
It will just not be automatic and infallible (in either direction) the way it is today. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.20 08:35:00 -
[157]
Originally by: Harener
Originally by: Mallak Azaria
Originally by: Zagdul Removing local is the most ******ED idea CCP has ever come up with.
I stopped reading here. Learn to D-scan.
How do you dscan cloakies?
Same way you do now. Only with no local a cov ops can live up to its name.
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Harener
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Posted - 2011.08.20 08:40:00 -
[158]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Harener
Originally by: Mallak Azaria
Originally by: Zagdul Removing local is the most ******ED idea CCP has ever come up with.
I stopped reading here. Learn to D-scan.
How do you dscan cloakies?
Same way you do now. Only with no local a cov ops can live up to its name.
Then why would I "Learn to D-scan" when it wouldn't do anything to prevent gankers?
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.08.20 08:45:00 -
[159]
Originally by: Harener Then why would I "Learn to D-scan" when it wouldn't do anything to prevent gankers?
Because even cloakers must find you before they can attack you. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.20 08:51:00 -
[160]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Harener Then why would I "Learn to D-scan" when it wouldn't do anything to prevent gankers?
Because even cloakers must find you before they can attack you.
and most things hunting out there don't have a cloak
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Kogh Ayon
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Posted - 2011.08.20 08:56:00 -
[161]
Originally by: Harener
Originally by: Mallak Azaria
Originally by: Zagdul Removing local is the most ******ED idea CCP has ever come up with.
I stopped reading here. Learn to D-scan.
How do you dscan cloakies?
He is cheating
Originally by: Michelle Corin Edited by: Michelle Corin on 19/08/2011 20:36:03 Local should be removed from Null Sec. I wish it functioned like WH space.
I wish CCP makes all the high-sec stations destroyable.
Originally by: Tetragammatron Prime Edited by: Tetragammatron Prime on 20/08/2011 06:20:09 Too many people in null sec use local to completely avoid pvp with the only way around it afk cloaking till they finally can no longer resist the urge for isk and start ratting with neuts in local. That isn't how the game should be.
I don't see a problem with have delayed local along with an ihub upgrade to have immediate local (make it same kind of requirement as jump bridge perhaps). Ratters can have see what is happening in their upgraded systems and still stay pretty safe. Bots will no longer be able to operate in npc/unupgraded space.
You mean no body should rat in NPC space? I just hide a Arazu 20km at the belt, any battleship will have to take around 15 seconds from arrive to escape. Oh you goods do not rat. that's cool, why not just petition to remove the rats from npc space?
Originally by: Eofina I'd like to see Local removed or delayed from Low-sec also.
Imagine those tears!
Delete everything in jita station will works better
Originally by: Eight Sinn Local I believe was intended for the purposes of communication when CCP put it in, it's being used for Intel now. Given that there are scanning mechanics to find people, with local being gone I would say that you will find more fights than less.
Just remove everything from jita that you will find more players or not
Originally by: Aelius
1st- You want to make Isk in 0.0 (considered a dangerous part of EVE). 2nd- But you don't want it to be dangerous, because you don't want to die.
0.0 is so dangerous that any a spy should be able to place a bomb in the station and ruin it, isn't it?
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Harener
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Posted - 2011.08.20 08:58:00 -
[162]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Harener Then why would I "Learn to D-scan" when it wouldn't do anything to prevent gankers?
Because even cloakers must find you before they can attack you.
Alright, that just proved you are a highsec carebear. You don't need probes for anomalies.
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:07:00 -
[163]
Edited by: Tippia on 20/08/2011 09:07:56
Originally by: Harener Alright, that just proved you are a highsec carebear. You don't need probes for anomalies.
That just proved that you don't know anything about EVE. I suggest you start learning by acquiring some D-scan skills. Oh, and a free lesson along the way: anomalies exist in all sec levels.
And the fact remains: even cloakers must find you before they can attack you. So you'll have to learn to do the same, because the information will not be free for either of you any more. Whether that finding bit will make use of the D-Scan or something new remains to be seen.
àand if that new detection method leaves out cloakers, that's good too. That would mean that they can actually do what they're meant to do. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
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Harener
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:11:00 -
[164]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 20/08/2011 09:07:56
Originally by: Harener Alright, that just proved you are a highsec carebear. You don't need probes for anomalies.
That just proved that you don't know anything about EVE. I suggest you start learning by acquiring some D-scan skills. Oh, and a free lesson along the way: anomalies exist in all sec levels.
And the fact remains: even cloakers must find you before they can attack you. So you'll have to learn to do the same, because the information will not be free for either of you any more. Whether that finding bit will make use of the D-Scan or something new remains to be seen.
àand if that new detection method leaves out cloakers, that's good too. That would mean that they can actually do what they're meant to do.
The fact remains: cloakers can find you without you ever being able to detect them. Again, you have no idea how anomalies work. "Dscan"? lol.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:16:00 -
[165]
Originally by: Harener
The fact remains: cloakers can find you without you ever being able to detect them. Again, you have no idea how anomalies work. "Dscan"? lol.
So you stay aligned then.
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:16:00 -
[166]
Edited by: Tippia on 20/08/2011 09:17:32
Originally by: Harener The fact remains: cloakers can find you without you ever being able to detect them.
That is not a fact. It's just you assuming things because you don't know how EVE works. Also, stop sucking and secure your area.
And again: why do think they will be able to do that just because local is removed? And if they do, good: undetectable ships become undetectable. Sounds like it would be working as intended.
As for not knowing about anomalies, I quite clearly know more about them than you doà ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
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Harener
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:20:00 -
[167]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Harener
The fact remains: cloakers can find you without you ever being able to detect them. Again, you have no idea how anomalies work. "Dscan"? lol.
So you stay aligned then.
They can point instantly after decloaking, and you can't be aligned all the time due to range issues.
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Harener The fact remains: cloakers can find you without you ever being able to detect them.
That is not a fact. It's just you assuming things because you don't know how EVE works. Also, stop sucking and secure your area.
And again: why do think they will be able to do that just because local is removed? And if they do, good: undetectable ships become undetectable. Sounds like it would be working as intended.
That is a fact. "You clearly don't know how EVE works" is not a retort, learn to argue. You can't secure space from cloakies, especially ones with nullifiers, especially 24/7.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:21:00 -
[168]
Originally by: Harener
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Harener
The fact remains: cloakers can find you without you ever being able to detect them. Again, you have no idea how anomalies work. "Dscan"? lol.
So you stay aligned then.
They can point instantly after decloaking, and you can't be aligned all the time due to range issues.
I manage to keep aligned with a maelstrom and nothing can lock me in time, not even frigates.
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Harener
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:23:00 -
[169]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Harener
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Harener
The fact remains: cloakers can find you without you ever being able to detect them. Again, you have no idea how anomalies work. "Dscan"? lol.
So you stay aligned then.
They can point instantly after decloaking, and you can't be aligned all the time due to range issues.
I manage to keep aligned with a maelstrom and nothing can lock me in time, not even frigates.
When you move 100km+ away, you have to warp back though. In this time a cloaky with eyes on you can easily point you.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:27:00 -
[170]
Originally by: Harener
When you move 100km+ away, you have to warp back though. In this time a cloaky with eyes on you can easily point you.
I never have this issue because I have set up bookmarks to align to. I am always in range and always aligned.
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:29:00 -
[171]
Originally by: Harener They can point instantly after decloaking, and you can't be aligned all the time due to range issues.
No they can't, and yes you can. You see, there are things that need to happen before you can actually apply that pointà I leave it as an exercise for the reader to find out what.
Quote: That is a fact.
Nope. If it were, this thread (and many on related topics that came before it) wouldn't exist.
Quote: "You clearly don't know how EVE works" is not a retort
So why did you use it?
Quote: You can't secure space from cloakies
Yes you can. You see, there are things cloakers can't do, and which you can use to your advantage. Again, I leave this as an exercise for the reader. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
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Gefen Orion
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:31:00 -
[172]
I thought CCP's intention was to promote nullsec as a viable place for players to live in? Removing local is regressive. Nullsec without local is twice dangerous and do you think people will be enticed to live in this space more so than now?
70% or 80% of eve's population is in highsec...making it more difficult to live in nullsec will push the people living here back to carebear kingdom...
With the current game mechanics...people in nullsec and lowsec are enjoying pvp as it is. why mess with this set up?
why not address more important issues like gallente hybrid weapons, drone mods, ewar adjustments, mining boost, ship skins (for the love of everything that is holy...pls remodel those ugly ships)...
leave nullsec as it is...
or
try to make nullsec more enticing for highsec peepz...
the problem in nullsec is not about the game mechanics...we have too few people living in nullsec...
you want PVP? put 20,000 people in nullsec and you will have a party...nuff said
"Right here, right now." |
Harener
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:31:00 -
[173]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Harener
When you move 100km+ away, you have to warp back though. In this time a cloaky with eyes on you can easily point you.
I never have this issue because I have set up bookmarks to align to. I am always in range and always aligned.
When you are turning around to re-align to a different bookmark, you are vulnerable. It takes a BS 15 secs to align.
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Harener They can point instantly after decloaking, and you can't be aligned all the time due to range issues.
No they can't, and yes you can. You see, there are things that need to happen before you can actually apply that pointà I leave it as an exercise for the reader to find out what.
Quote: That is a fact.
Nope. If it were, this thread (and many on related topics that came before it) wouldn't exist.
Quote: "You clearly don't know how EVE works" is not a retort
So why did you use it?
Quote: You can't secure space from cloakies
Yes you can. You see, there are things cloakers can't do, and which you can use to your advantage. Again, I leave this as an exercise for the reader.
You are wrong on all accounts, this is left as an exercise for the reader to figure out why.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:36:00 -
[174]
Originally by: Harener
I never have this issue because I have set up bookmarks to align to. I am always in range and always aligned.
When you are turning around to re-align to a different bookmark, you are vulnerable. It takes a BS 15 secs to align.
Yea if the BM is behind you and you're flying a brick. Mine are placed so I only have a quick alteration to do. I have also yet to meet a pilot who will wait after warping to a target before decloaking to get tackle.
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Harener
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:41:00 -
[175]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Harener
I never have this issue because I have set up bookmarks to align to. I am always in range and always aligned.
When you are turning around to re-align to a different bookmark, you are vulnerable. It takes a BS 15 secs to align.
Yea if the BM is behind you and you're flying a brick. Mine are placed so I only have a quick alteration to do. I have also yet to meet a pilot who will wait after warping to a target before decloaking to get tackle. Yea in a tengu it's easier but to have bookmarks spaced around a specific sanctum such that you only have to slightly change alignment to stay in range (effectively turning 360 degrees eventually) isn't possible because they're placed randomally. Even a shift of say 30 degrees totally breaks alignment and will cause you to waste a lot of time trying to warp, which is 10-15 secs in a BS, even the 5 secs it takes a tengu is enough to point it.
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Harener
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:44:00 -
[176]
A simple solution of course would be to make anomalies require probes, just like missions.
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:45:00 -
[177]
Originally by: Harener You are wrong on all accounts, this is left as an exercise for the reader to figure out why.
You mean apart from the fact that it is not just possible, but unavoidable to detect cloakers (which may or may not change, we don't know yet); the fact that a cloaker can't "point instantly" after decloaking, especially ones with nullifiers; the fact that it's trivial to stay aligned without going out of range; the fact that you can secure areas of space ù especially deadspace and other types of dungeons ù from cloaking ships; and the fact that you just ran out of arguments?
Well, aside from thatà oh wait, there is nothing left to figure out now. Well, maybe some obscure reason why you are allowed to use "you obviously don't know" as a retort, but not I, but I just put this down to misapplied bravado. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:46:00 -
[178]
Originally by: Harener
Yea if the BM is behind you and you're flying a brick. Mine are placed so I only have a quick alteration to do. I have also yet to meet a pilot who will wait after warping to a target before decloaking to get tackle.
Yea in a tengu it's easier but to have bookmarks spaced around a specific sanctum such that you only have to slightly change alignment to stay in range (effectively turning 360 degrees eventually) isn't possible because they're placed randomally. Even a shift of say 30 degrees totally breaks alignment and will cause you to waste a lot of time trying to warp, which is 10-15 secs in a BS, even the 5 secs it takes a tengu is enough to point it.
It takes 9 seconds to do a full 180 and get into warp in my BS. To change direction I tend to only move 30 degrees and I am already up to full speed so getting into warp takes seconds. The vast bulk of the time I am aligned so get into warp instantly.
For someone to land on me while I am aligning to a different BM is very slim.
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Harener
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:50:00 -
[179]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Harener You are wrong on all accounts, this is left as an exercise for the reader to figure out why.
You mean apart from the fact that it is not just possible, but unavoidable to detect cloakers (which may or may not change, we don't know yet); the fact that a cloaker can't "point instantly" after decloaking, especially ones with nullifiers; the fact that it's trivial to stay aligned without going out of range; the fact that you can secure areas of space ù especially deadspace and other types of dungeons ù from cloaking ships; and the fact that you just ran out of arguments?
Well, aside from thatà oh wait, there is nothing left to figure out now. Well, maybe some obscure reason why you are allowed to use "you obviously don't know" as a retort, but not I, but I just put this down to misapplied bravado.
You are trying so hard to be witty, it's cute.
It is impossible to prevent cloakers from entering your space and logging of in it, and of course it is also impossible to prevent cloakers from warping to your location and pointing you, they could have been logged off in the system for a week, so monitoring gates would do no good. The fact is it is impossible to prevent someone from warping in on you and pointing you at an opportune time, such as when you are re-aligning or are pointed by NPCs.
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:53:00 -
[180]
Edited by: Tippia on 20/08/2011 09:53:47
Originally by: Harener It is impossible to prevent cloakers from entering your space and logging of in it,
Another lesson for you: ôareaö ≠ ôspaceö. So: stop sucking and secure your area.
Quote: it is also impossible to prevent cloakers from warping to your location and pointing you
No, it's not, for the simple reason that you can quite easily prevent them from pointing you. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
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Harener
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Posted - 2011.08.20 09:56:00 -
[181]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 20/08/2011 09:53:47
Originally by: Harener It is impossible to prevent cloakers from entering your space and logging of in it,
Another lesson for you: ôareaö ≠ ôspaceö. So: stop sucking and secure your area.
Quote: it is also impossible to prevent cloakers from warping to your location and pointing you
No, it's not, for the simple reason that you can quite easily prevent them from pointing you.
Nope, impossible to secure "area" of cloakers. And again, no you can't prevent them from pointing you, simple fact is you have to re-align which takes time and NPCs can also point you.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.20 10:02:00 -
[182]
Originally by: Harener
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 20/08/2011 09:53:47
Originally by: Harener It is impossible to prevent cloakers from entering your space and logging of in it,
Another lesson for you: ôareaö ≠ ôspaceö. So: stop sucking and secure your area.
Quote: it is also impossible to prevent cloakers from warping to your location and pointing you
No, it's not, for the simple reason that you can quite easily prevent them from pointing you.
Nope, impossible to secure "area" of cloakers. And again, no you can't prevent them from pointing you, simple fact is you have to re-align which takes time and NPCs can also point you.
Kill the cloakers and the area becomes secure.
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.08.20 10:02:00 -
[183]
Edited by: Tippia on 20/08/2011 10:03:01
Originally by: Harener Nope, impossible to secure "area" of cloakers.
Again, you're showing your ignorance about basic functionality and game mechanics. Just decloak them.
<edit>That said, baltec1's solution is even betterà </edit>
Quote: And again, no you can't prevent them from pointing you.
And again, yes you can, just prep your area and/or fly with due amount of caution. Picking the right equipment will also help you.
It sounds more and more like you haven't actually tried to solve any of the problems you're facing and have just resigned to some imagined fate. Stop giving up so easily and you'll quickly notice that there is more you can do than you think. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
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Harener
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Posted - 2011.08.20 10:06:00 -
[184]
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 20/08/2011 10:03:01
Originally by: Harener Nope, impossible to secure "area" of cloakers.
Again, you're showing your ignorance about basic functionality and game mechanics. Just decloak them.
<edit>That said, baltec1's solution is even betterà </edit>
Quote: And again, no you can't prevent them from pointing you.
And again, yes you can, just prep your area and/or fly with due amount of caution. Picking the right equipment will also help you.
It sounds more and more like you haven't actually tried to solve any of the problems you're facing and have just resigned to some imagined fate. Stop giving up so easily and you'll quickly notice that there is more you can do than you think.
More ad hominems, keep it up. You can't kill an afk cloaker, since they will pick engagements they can only win. Basic game mechanics, you see. So your alt "baltec1" is also wrong in the fact that you can't bait them, since they are there for weeks at a time.
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Wu Jiaqiu
Minmatar Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.20 10:08:00 -
[185]
Local in Low-Sec. Delayed local in Null.
End.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.20 10:15:00 -
[186]
Edited by: baltec1 on 20/08/2011 10:15:01
Originally by: Harener
More ad hominems, keep it up. You can't kill an afk cloaker, since they will pick engagements they can only win. Basic game mechanics, you see. So your alt "baltec1" is also wrong in the fact that you can't bait them, since they are there for weeks at a time.
Me and tippia dont agree on everything.
Also this
All you need is the right bait and you soon find out if they are AFK or not.
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Harener
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Posted - 2011.08.20 10:17:00 -
[187]
Originally by: baltec1 Edited by: baltec1 on 20/08/2011 10:15:01
Originally by: Harener
More ad hominems, keep it up. You can't kill an afk cloaker, since they will pick engagements they can only win. Basic game mechanics, you see. So your alt "baltec1" is also wrong in the fact that you can't bait them, since they are there for weeks at a time.
Me and tippia dont agree on everything.
Also this
All you need is the right bait and you soon find out if they are AFK or not.
It is not a matter of whether they are afk or not, it is that they could become active at any time. You could bait them for 10 hours, and nothing might happen. But the hour or two after that they may become active.
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.20 10:21:00 -
[188]
Originally by: Harener
It is not a matter of whether they are afk or not, it is that they could become active at any time. You could bait them for 10 hours, and nothing might happen. But the hour or two after that they may become active.
If I can be bothered to guard my home systems so can you. The great thing about no local is you wont know they are even there so there is no point in AFK cloaking while you go to work.
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.08.20 10:21:00 -
[189]
Originally by: Harener More ad hominems, keep it up.
No. Ad hominem = your argument is invalid because you are ignorant (or some other personal characteristic, as opposed to because the argument itself is erroneous). What I'm saying is pretty much the opposite: by employing an erroneous argument, you display a fair amount of ignorance about the issue.
And if you don't like these types of arguments, maybe you shouldn't have started down that particular path to begin withà
Quote: You can't kill an afk cloaker
àbecause there is no way to locate him, but on the other hand there is no need to locate him since he can't do anything, what with being AFK and all. Once he stops being an AFK cloaker and actually attacks, you can kill him just fine.
Quote: they will pick engagements they can only win
So make sure they can't win it. Or (for even more fun) make him think he can win it, then kill him.
Quote: So your alt "baltec1"
Ah, the old "I am being attacked from more than one front, so they must all be alts" argument. Yeah, no. The problem here is that you're just plain old wrong, and more than one person has noticed this fact. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
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Harener
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Posted - 2011.08.20 10:26:00 -
[190]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Harener More ad hominems, keep it up.
No. Ad hominem = your argument is invalid because you are ignorant (or some other personal characteristic, as opposed to because the argument itself is erroneous). What I'm saying is pretty much the opposite: by employing an erroneous argument, you display a fair amount of ignorance about the issue.
No. You have no valid arguments so you resort to things like calling me "ignorant", as you can see here.
Originally by: Tippia àbecause there is no way to locate him, but on the other hand there is no need to locate him since he can't do anything, what with being AFK and all. Once he stops being an AFK cloaker and actually attacks, you can kill him just fine.
Actually, no, a ratter cannot kill them. Of course you can't bait 24/7.
Originally by: Tippia So make sure they can't win it. Or (for even more fun) make him think he can win it, then kill him.
Again, they are there for weeks at a time, you cannot bait 24/7 for weeks.
Originally by: Tippia Ah, the old "I am being attacked from more than one front, so they must all be alts" argument. Yeah, no. The problem here is that you're just plain old wrong, and more than one person has noticed this fact.
Which is ironic considering all you do is call me "ignorant" and "wrong", and other such ad hominems.
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chekerss
Minmatar Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
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Posted - 2011.08.20 10:27:00 -
[191]
Edited by: chekerss on 20/08/2011 10:28:37 Edited by: chekerss on 20/08/2011 10:28:11 I'd love local to be removed if they could add an effective compromise.
I'd like to see some sort of "scanner" added to the overview where it would show general information about how many ships are in the system outside of the local grid. Something with a great deal more generalized information like how many ships are powered/in use/moving out there. You could even have it give less information and just give out the mass of the ships instead of the number. It would be a great deal better if it did not show cloaked ships.
That's a good compromise to giving some information about how much is in a system but not giving out who and what is in the system. This would open up a lot more of an opportunity for different tactics and keeping fresh the combat in null sec. Getting rid of d-scan completley in this scenario would be great and add a great deal to the whole combat scanning profession.
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.08.20 10:34:00 -
[192]
Originally by: Harener No. You have no valid arguments so you resort to things like calling me "ignorant", as you can see here.
Aside from the fact that I have presented plenty of arguments, that doesn't make it an ad hominem.
Quote: Actually, no, a ratter cannot kill them.
Sure he can. Shooting helps.
Quote: Again, they are there for weeks at a time, you cannot bait 24/7 for weeks.
And why on earth would you do that, even if you could? You bait when you bait, and if he's not AFK and bites, you reel him in.
Quote: Which is ironic considering all you do is call me "ignorant" and "wrong", and other such ad hominems.
And again: that's not an ad hominem. This is just you being ignorant about what the term actually means ù see above for the distinction. The reason I call you ignorant and wrong is because what you say is wrong, and this makes you seem ignorant. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
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baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.20 10:35:00 -
[193]
Originally by: Harener
Which is ironic considering all you do is call me "ignorant" and "wrong", and other such ad hominems.
That tends to happen when you are both ignorant and wrong.
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Harener
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Posted - 2011.08.20 10:40:00 -
[194]
Edited by: Harener on 20/08/2011 10:41:47
Originally by: Tippia Aside from the fact that I have presented plenty of arguments, that doesn't make it an ad hominem.
Actually, saying "you don't know how EVE works", "stop sucking", etc. are, in fact, ad hominems.
Originally by: Tippia Sure he can. Shooting helps.
Arguing a PVE ship can take on a PVP gang. Nope.
Originally by: Tippia And why on earth would you do that, even if you could? You bait when you bait, and if he's not AFK and bites, you reel him in.
"You bait when you bait"? No really? The thing is, you can't bait for weeks, 24/7.
Originally by: Tippia And again: that's not an ad hominem. This is just you being ignorant about what the term actually means ù see above for the distinction. The reason I call you ignorant and wrong is because what you say is wrong, and this makes you seem ignorant.
I just quoted what you said above, which disproves that, and you calling me ignorant yet failing to provide evidence that stands up to arguments is indeed that.
edit: it has been over an hour, and I have to log now. Let's do this again sometime
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.08.20 10:51:00 -
[195]
Edited by: Tippia on 20/08/2011 10:53:00
Originally by: Harener Actually, saying "you don't know how EVE works", "stop sucking", etc. are, in fact, ad hominems.
No. Those are just jabs at you, based on things you say that are at odds with what you can do in the game.
Again: an ad hominem is when I dismiss your argument based on some characteristic in your person (shoe size, favourite ice cream flavour, average yearly exposure to rain), rather than dismissing your argument because of flaws in the argument itself. I'm doing the opposite: I'm dismissing you because of a characteristic in your argument (most notably, it being wrong) ù different thing.
Quote: Arguing a PVE ship can take on a PVP gang.
See, the problem here is that you keep moving the goal posts. It was once an AFK cloaker; now it's a gang.
Quote: The thing is, you can't bait for weeks, 24/7.
And again: why on earth would you do that, even if you could? Or, put another way, the thing is, you don't need to bait for weeks, 23.5/7.
Quote: I just quoted what you said above
Referring to what, exactly?
Quote: which disproves that
Nope.
Quote: and you calling me ignorant yet failing to provide evidence that stands up to arguments is indeed that.
Nope. And I have provided plenty of ôevidenceö that you have chosen to either ignore or try to disprove through the use of obviously false claims. So it still largely sounds that you've given up without actually trying to improve your situation. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
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Wu Tarot
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Posted - 2011.08.20 11:44:00 -
[196]
Edited by: Wu Tarot on 20/08/2011 11:47:46 Edited by: Wu Tarot on 20/08/2011 11:45:41
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Harener Then why would I "Learn to D-scan" when it wouldn't do anything to prevent gankers?
Because even cloakers must find you before they can attack you.
I dont have a cloak.. you cant use the scanners while cloaked?
Originally by: Kogh Ayon
Originally by: Harener
Originally by: Mallak Azaria
Originally by: Zagdul Removing local is the most ******ED idea CCP has ever come up with.
I stopped reading here. Learn to D-scan.
How do you dscan cloakies?
He is cheating
so you report ppl that cloak? lol Id love to see the GM response on that ticket
"Youre... reporting someone for using an in game item?"
Quote:
I wish CCP would make high sec stations destroyable"
youre one of those guys that kills questgivers in WoW huh? also I bet you wish theyd make CONCORD completely tankable so you can get yer rocks off killing noobs
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Russell Casey
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Posted - 2011.08.20 13:53:00 -
[197]
People can't find fights because of local. Nobody will go against you until they've put together a proper gang that outnumbers yours 3 to 1 with ECM and a cyno-drop on standby. This takes hours by the way while the FC tries to figure out what he's up against and put together a good counter-fleet in addition to it just being ridiculously larger than the other guy.
See, people hate to lose, and in EVE losing hurts. We claim it's harsh and that we're better than WoW players because we risk all our stuff when we fight, but we're not any better. We hide, gank, and run away just as much as they do. And we grind, oh Lord, do we grind.
People don't want to fight until they're "good and ready" and good and ready means "auto-win." Arguably even these roamers are guilty because they're basically hoping to run into some poor sod who's jumping through the wrong gate at the wrong time or got up to use the crapper when the gang was called out in intel or hit a nasty patch of lag and didn't realize the dock command on his third hulk didn't go through.
Anyway, don't fret my little bears, locals not going away and it's not getting delayed. CCP only ever nerfs piracy, they don't buff it. That's why it's fun for me.
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Mutnin
Amarr Mutineers
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Posted - 2011.08.20 13:59:00 -
[198]
Originally by: baltec1 Because using the D-Scan is impossible
Noo, because wasting 5 to 8 mins in every system I travel though by having to warp to all the belts & planets off my scanner is a total waste of time. Even more wasted time figuring out if the ship on scan is actually piloted or just floating empty in a POS.
The funny thing is many of us have asked for a buff to low sec. I can just about bet you anything that if null sec goes "no local" most gangs will go to low sec for their PVP leave null with even less occupants.
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Nieero
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Posted - 2011.08.20 15:24:00 -
[199]
Anatomy of this thread: 10% discussion of how local influences small gang pvp 90% future life of the 0.0 carebear
Also op is wrong. I can't be arsed to repeat all the valid arguments only to be confronted with a bunch of platitutes. Furthermore there's a lot of people who seem to have missed BFF's 0.0 blogs.
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Wu Tarot
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Posted - 2011.08.20 15:36:00 -
[200]
0.0 carebear? never heard THAT term before... all the carebears live in Hisec lol http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1559306&page=3#71 CCP read the comments, remember SWG. They thought THEY knew what was best for THEIR game too........ |
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Brainless Bimbo
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.20 15:50:00 -
[201]
local should be at the discretion of the sov holder.
high sec, local stays same, low sec and npc 0.0 just turn it to delayed and give sov holders the rights to configure down to linking it to standing as to effects, bad standing meaning no local not even delayed that could make for interesting times. CCP Shadow 24/06/2010 17:30:40: We do not have plans to go microtransaction with EVE. October 2010 CSM Virtual Goods unveiled
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Wu Tarot
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Posted - 2011.08.20 16:20:00 -
[202]
Originally by: Brainless Bimbo local should be at the discretion of the sov holder.
high sec, local stays same, low sec and npc 0.0 just turn it to delayed and give sov holders the rights to configure down to linking it to standing as to effects, bad standing meaning no local not even delayed that could make for interesting times.
I say no cause thats whats it called system defending itself and not us defensing system? cause thered be no way to sneak in unless youve gotten blue with them. I LIKE the idea of no local in 0.0. http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1559306&page=3#71 CCP read the comments, remember SWG. They thought THEY knew what was best for THEIR game too........ |
Herpes Sweatrash
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Posted - 2011.08.21 14:55:00 -
[203]
Improve probing mechanics so you make it only pick up ships that are piloted so with a deepspace probe you can pick up if there are people in system and not have to look at every ship at pos etc. That kind of thing imo along with delayed local would be awesome.
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Ikonz
Caldari Coristati
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Posted - 2011.08.21 15:12:00 -
[204]
where does it say that they want to remove local?
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.21 16:55:00 -
[205]
Edited by: Cearain on 21/08/2011 16:55:36
Originally by: Tippia And again, yes you can, just prep your area and/or fly with due amount of caution. .
Yep you'll need more work for pvp. And you'll need more caution. There is already too much of both in eve as it is.
No local will really make eve a horribly stupid game. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.21 16:59:00 -
[206]
Originally by: Ikonz where does it say that they want to remove local?
In the csm minutes they said something about not having it due to incarna. They say they will replace it with something similar.
Its hard to see how this won't be a boost to blobbing. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.08.21 23:44:00 -
[207]
Originally by: Cearain Edited by: Cearain on 21/08/2011 16:55:36
Originally by: Tippia And again, yes you can, just prep your area and/or fly with due amount of caution. .
Yep you'll need more work for pvp. And you'll need more caution. There is already too much of both in eve as it is.
No local will really make eve a horribly stupid game.
Nice to see you've backed up that ground breaking statement with plenty of evidence.
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Nematisu
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Posted - 2011.08.22 21:07:00 -
[208]
Edited by: Nematisu on 22/08/2011 21:07:35 Removing local = glorious. No more blobbing and thinking you're invincible... no more safing up as soon as you see someone enter local. The carebears will obviously not like this, but PvPers have to be happy about it. 0.0 is supposed to be lawless space, and as such there should be some *real* worry about flying there. W-space pvp is more fun because you never know what you're going to find, and it emphasized having great scouts / intel. No local in 0.0 will bring that same element.
"Removing local is a bad idea and the morons who make the claim that a delayed local, like in wormholes, is a good idea are dumb as they don't think about how unbalanced and boring null/low sec will be when/if they do."
-This is your opinion, and you're more than entitled to it. But I happen to think that W-space PvP is MUCH more entertaining.
As with every change, PvP tactics will need to evolve. I think it should be an interesting show.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.22 21:11:00 -
[209]
Edited by: Sullen Skoung on 22/08/2011 21:14:16
Originally by: Ikonz where does it say that they want to remove local?
Yeah my alt asked that like 3 times an never got answered
Oh the CSM cause theyre so ground breakingly in control of the game... CCP wouldnt release something for the game without putting it past them first right? Or ignore them completely when putting something into the game. They wouldnt do that either. CSM are there for a face saving measure. Theyre anti spin. Hell the CSM is a joke compared to the impossible tank they were made for in the first place lol -------- Dammit, they killed the post where Sreegs says personal attacks are against the rules. I wanted to lol at him for that |
Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
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Posted - 2011.08.22 21:17:00 -
[210]
i only see yes and no's why not have both?
add more space with no local and new pirats?
add a i hub upgrade witch make local visible
Fix Black Op's |
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XIRUSPHERE
Gallente Deadly Intent.
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Posted - 2011.08.22 21:40:00 -
[211]
The amount of hand wringing and obfuscation coming from people who can't stand not having their security blankets is amazing. EVE has been dumbed down for years and has focused nigh entirely on making the game friendlier to the bears that infest it.
Local as the end all Intel tool in this game makes it dull and boring when engagements are called before ships even ever encounter one another. It caters to the game play that has allowed inflation to run rampant and all the whining from players used to having a gold spoon in their mouths.
I sincerely hope those that are so frightened by the prospect do leave when the changes come, keep crying wolf about how no one will get the tools of war because those who want easy mode can't be assed to use the wetware between their ears. When you do leave it will only foster opportunity for others.
The only thing that would make it better is if you removed concord protection from NPC corporations. If you want to be in the largest corporations in the game that can't be decced you should have to start somewhere with learning how to defend yourself and work together or do the right thing and find people to work with rather than hiding behind a steel curtain while you ignore everyone in the game and learn nothing about it's mechanics while hording ISK.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.22 23:13:00 -
[212]
Originally by: XIRUSPHERE The amount of hand wringing and obfuscation coming from people who can't stand not having their security blankets is amazing. EVE has been dumbed down for years and has focused nigh entirely on making the game friendlier to the bears that infest it.
Ah those bears that make up 70-80% of the playerbase you mean? Yeah, we totally should kick them from the game so CCP can shut the game down an start real work on WoD
What you dont think that'll happen if 70% of the playerbase leaves? Yeah... SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left. -------- Dammit, they killed the post where Sreegs says personal attacks are against the rules. I wanted to lol at him for that |
XIRUSPHERE
Gallente Deadly Intent.
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Posted - 2011.08.23 02:44:00 -
[213]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: XIRUSPHERE The amount of hand wringing and obfuscation coming from people who can't stand not having their security blankets is amazing. EVE has been dumbed down for years and has focused nigh entirely on making the game friendlier to the bears that infest it.
Ah those bears that make up 70-80% of the playerbase you mean? Yeah, we totally should kick them from the game so CCP can shut the game down an start real work on WoD
What you dont think that'll happen if 70% of the playerbase leaves? Yeah... SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left.
If that many people left because they can't handle the game outside running bots and being addicted to the PVE grind it would be absolutely awesome. Id love to see an eve with 5-10k players online, CCP forced to abandon dust, wod, and anything not related to FIS. The gorgeous thing is the game would function just fine without that element.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.23 03:31:00 -
[214]
Originally by: XIRUSPHERE
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: XIRUSPHERE The amount of hand wringing and obfuscation coming from people who can't stand not having their security blankets is amazing. EVE has been dumbed down for years and has focused nigh entirely on making the game friendlier to the bears that infest it.
Ah those bears that make up 70-80% of the playerbase you mean? Yeah, we totally should kick them from the game so CCP can shut the game down an start real work on WoD
What you dont think that'll happen if 70% of the playerbase leaves? Yeah... SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left.
If that many people left because they can't handle the game outside running bots and being addicted to the PVE grind it would be absolutely awesome.
Yet in all reality what would happen is theyd move into full production on WoD as theyd mark EVE up as a failure. I love all the ppl that hate this game so much theyd love CCP to shut it down apparently. The only real troll of CCP is when they put a Goon in as head of security and then listened to the one on the CSM lol
-------- Dammit, they killed the post where Sreegs says personal attacks are against the rules. I wanted to lol at him for that |
XIRUSPHERE
Gallente Deadly Intent.
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Posted - 2011.08.23 03:42:00 -
[215]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: XIRUSPHERE
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: XIRUSPHERE The amount of hand wringing and obfuscation coming from people who can't stand not having their security blankets is amazing. EVE has been dumbed down for years and has focused nigh entirely on making the game friendlier to the bears that infest it.
Ah those bears that make up 70-80% of the playerbase you mean? Yeah, we totally should kick them from the game so CCP can shut the game down an start real work on WoD
What you dont think that'll happen if 70% of the playerbase leaves? Yeah... SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left.
If that many people left because they can't handle the game outside running bots and being addicted to the PVE grind it would be absolutely awesome.
Yet in all reality what would happen is theyd move into full production on WoD as theyd mark EVE up as a failure. I love all the ppl that hate this game so much theyd love CCP to shut it down apparently. The only real troll of CCP is when they put a Goon in as head of security and then listened to the one on the CSM lol
I say let it burn now, the faster it crashes and burns the faster the IP will be ignored so people with a passion for it can resurrect it in the form of a private server free of the burden of a suicidal ceo, cfo, and share holders.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.23 04:12:00 -
[216]
Originally by: XIRUSPHERE
I say let it burn now, the faster it crashes and burns
You sure youre not a Goon? Thats what they are all about... or used to be -------- Dammit, they killed the post where Sreegs says personal attacks are against the rules. I wanted to lol at him for that |
Demon Azrakel
Gallente Defiant.. Narwhals Ate My Duck
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Posted - 2011.08.23 04:13:00 -
[217]
I am fully in favor of removing local, as it is an instant zero risk intel tool than makes doing most anything in 0.0 (mining, ratting, running anomalies) risk free and even more risk free to bot.
Nullsec players SCREAM risk v. reward so often, but they don't realize, or care I guess, that there is no risk to ratting in a bubble immune Tengu (or botting in one).
Nullsec needs to be a darker place where people have to support each other, read intel channels, and check dscan, not "warp-to-safe-cloak-neener-neener-neener" at the first sign of trouble before they can possibly be harmed.
It is also a nerf to the AFK cloakers, as they have to go to some level of effort to see if they are disrupting something and have to actually disrupt something to get noticed (and thus disrupt something).
I do wonder if it would be fair to give nullsec players a notification every time the gate fires without saying if it is blue or not, that would really **** with bots.
Also, perfect intel means less of a chance of a weaker fleet ever engaging a stronger one, or of two fleets of similar size engaging each other (EVE pilots being risk averse as they are). If you have the perfect intel of local, little fighting will (does) actually happen.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.23 04:15:00 -
[218]
Originally by: Demon Azrakel
Nullsec players SCREAM risk v. reward so often, but they don't realize, or care I guess, that there is no risk to ratting in a bubble immune Tengu (or botting in one).
I always think its so funny how loud the 0.0 ppl scream that in threads where the bears wanna be left alone then you see them screaming all the louder in a thread like this...
-------- Dammit, they killed the post where Sreegs says personal attacks are against the rules. I wanted to lol at him for that |
XIRUSPHERE
Gallente Deadly Intent.
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Posted - 2011.08.23 04:19:00 -
[219]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: XIRUSPHERE
I say let it burn now, the faster it crashes and burns
You sure youre not a Goon? Thats what they are all about... or used to be
Goons are just another cult, empty ideology always falls flat on it's face.
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Soldarius
Caldari Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.08.23 05:00:00 -
[220]
Folks are wprried about how powerful cloak-fitted fleets will be with no/delayed local.
LEts look at the module, Improved Cloak.
In short, 20 second sensor recalibration delay, and 40% reduced scan resolution.
Scenario 1: duder is baiting in a belt. Undetected small gang warps in and tackles. Cloaked gang is sitting on grid and decloaks to engage. .......... 20 seconds later they can start targeting. .......... 10-20 seconds later, they get locks, assuming the baited fleet is still there. If so, cool. Trap success because red FC is confident of his fleet's ability to win. If not, sucks. Trap fail. Red FC isn't confident of a win and orders warp out.
Scenario 2: duder is sitting in a belt baiting. Red fleet warps in and tackles. Cloaked gank squad is sitting off grid. Bait calls on coms saying hook has been taken. They decloak, hit warp........ wait for it...... warp starts....... bit more warping, probably the reds don't notice because they're too busy shooting to dscan. Gank squad arrives and reds go "Oh, ****!" Gank squad starts targeting because they spent their 20 second recal time warping. Slow targets get locked. goodfites ensue.
Scenario 3: Bots rating it up in a nice truesec system off the beaten path. Cloaky scout arrives to take a look at all the NPC kills he saw on dotlan. Dscan shows Tengus and Ravens with numerically sequential names. Warping to a sanctum/belt, he waits patiently. Bit later, bot warps in. Gank, kasplooey. -1 bot.
Scenario 4: Bots rating it up in a nice truesec system off the beaten path. Cloaky scout arrives to take a look at all the NPC kills he saw on dotlan. Bots see non-blue in local and log/warp to POS long before scout ever gets a fix on them. Boring bots win. DRF goes on to curb-stomp all of nul.
Other tactics have been mentioned in this thread. It won't break nul. It will change tactics. It will make nul more fluid. People, actual people, might have to actually work together.
I think its time for local to go away. "The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage missiles." - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1 amended
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Alina Wize
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.23 06:15:00 -
[221]
Posting in a Zagdul tears thread.
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Alxea
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Posted - 2011.08.23 07:45:00 -
[222]
Originally by: Zagdul Removing local is the most ******ED idea CCP has ever come up with.
Local helps you FIND fights and the way null is right now, most people put a gang together and can't find one. This will make finding PVP HARDER not EASIER.
It will make ganking easier, but that's not PVP, that's PvCB.
Not only that, but this is going to make black ops easy as, well, you never saw us coming, you didn't see us jump into system and well, you don't have our fleet scouted within range either, cause it's cloaked and you have no local.
Removing local is a bad idea and the morons who make the claim that a delayed local, like in wormholes, is a good idea are dumb as they don't think about how unbalanced and boring null/low sec will be when/if they do.
It doesn't help gang warfare in the slightest.
When I take out a 10-20 man gang, we find our hostiles by going into local/intel channels (which are reported by local counts and normally inaccurate ), counting how many bad dudes and deciding to engage or not.
Without local, and by using an "improved scan system" you're now turning, what could be a fast, fun moving gang into a slow, boring one cause you gotta put your faith into a system we're counting on CCP to develop to function as intended.
Good luck
Local works, leave it.
The tears generated from black ops will be glorious, however, this will be niche and short lived. The rest of EVE Online combat will be difficult and hard to find. You will in essence, ruin finding small gangs to fight, just as there is an upswing on small gang warfare.
Please do not evade the profanity filter. Zymurgist
See this is where your wrong hun, because me and my mates have no local in w-space and we find kills all the time. Here is what local is really for... to get insta intel wile your ratting and carebearing if you should safe up and cloak up the moment a neut comes into the system.
You'd be mad bro if your local was suddenly taken away and you wouldn't have insta warning. Carebears are silly how they troll and whine. The moment ccp removes local from null sec and lowsec will be fun. Because its people like you who are too lazy to use D-Scan or be a man and die like one to a surprise cloaky tackler.
W-Space is the most fun because it gives like... the element of surprise and all that. In 0.0 and lowsec you instantly know whats coming because of local and that's pretty broken. Fights are more fun because of the unknown.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.24 10:16:00 -
[223]
Originally by: Alxea Carebears are silly how they troll and whine.
Yeahh...... cause hardcores never troll nor whine....
Oh wait no, they do it at least 80% more cause theyre the ones look like the majority in this game (when youre not) |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.24 12:03:00 -
[224]
You don't need to remove local... just have cloaked ships disappear from local. Hey, they're cloaked, they shouldn't be picked up by local in the first place.
To counter that being OP, have a 30 to 60 second delay in activating a cyno after decloaking, regardless of the cloak type. |
Mary Astell
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Posted - 2011.08.24 12:56:00 -
[225]
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai It would allow for alot more unexpected fights. Most of the time fights are AVOIDED because of the info they get in local. Say for an example your running a 20 man gang and your scout notices a 40 man gang 2 systems out. Most gangs will log off or run away, there for avoiding conflict. Without local you will probably see more small scale skirmishs due to lack of intel.
However I do agree to a point that it will allow for a lot more ganks, especially on carebears since the carebear will have no idea if their FoF.
You have outlined the reason that local should not be removed without realising it. It will help larger fleets blob smaller fleets that are not quite as well scouted. All i know is that when we roam we will engage any fleet that we are equal ore if we can bait them, greater than.
The only gameplay you will encourage by removing local is grossly uneven fights. This will make people blob up even more.
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Miss Rabblt
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Posted - 2011.08.24 13:04:00 -
[226]
Edited by: Miss Rabblt on 24/08/2011 13:07:52 well. i'm travelling again throught AAA, Red.Overlord, other south alliances territory.... Almost no one around. With 30 jumps i found 2-3 systems with people inside.
Most of systems a: Strategy 5, Military 0, Industry 0 level.
I think this is what all of "remove local" warriors want? Empty systems without any one?
Without local (or with seriously reduced intel tool) people will leave even more systems. Good luck with roaming
PS: now i can talk with people in system i pass. They talk to me even when we are red to each one! Why? Because it is too little people around. Simply empty universe. Make local like in WH (appear in local only if you speak something) or something non-instant will make simply dead universe. You login into empty system and you cry desperately "Is there anybody here?????".
No thanks.....
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Tippia
Caldari Sunshine and Lollipops
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Posted - 2011.08.24 13:06:00 -
[227]
Edited by: Tippia on 24/08/2011 13:07:14
Originally by: Mary Astell The only gameplay you will encourage by removing local is grossly uneven fights. This will make people blob up even more.
Local already does that, since people know instantly whether it's time to flee or not. What you're saying is that, without local, some of those fights would instead accidentally happen. Uneven or not, this is a good thing.
àand the old fights will still happen for the same reason they happen now.
That said, your scenario hinges on the idea that people will blob up because that is (supposedly) the only cure for no intel. The problem with this idea, of course, is that same intel will be available, only it won't be served on a silver platter.
Originally by: Miss Rabblt Without local (or with seriously reduced intel tool) people will leave even more systems. Good luck with roaming
In other words, people will remain in the systems and the roaming will be more fun since it actually becomes a chase. ùùù ôIf you're not willing to fight for what you have in ≡v≡ you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.ö ù Karath Piki
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Eight Sinn
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Posted - 2011.08.24 13:28:00 -
[228]
Originally by: Soldarius Folks are wprried about how powerful cloak-fitted fleets will be with no/delayed local.
I think they are worried about Stealth Bombers (solo or fleet). Covops zero delay on lock after decloak. Personally I think local was meant to facilitate communication, but people being adaptive are using it for intel. Wrong, right? Who is to say really.
I think I might explore more if there wasn't a local because people are also inherently lazy when it comes right down to it and will start to use the old scanner less which does two things: a) keep me alive b) gives me more potential targets.
EVE prides itself on PVP, I'm cool with that. Local just makes it sort of PVP carebear gimptastic if you ask me. Just my opinion. |
Miss Rabblt
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Posted - 2011.08.24 13:37:00 -
[229]
Originally by: Eight Sinn
Originally by: Soldarius Folks are wprried about how powerful cloak-fitted fleets will be with no/delayed local.
I think they are worried about Stealth Bombers (solo or fleet). Covops zero delay on lock after decloak.
+ you don't need to target anything to drop bubble from your dictor. + you don't need to target anything to launch bomb from your SB.
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Russell Casey
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Posted - 2011.08.24 13:51:00 -
[230]
Edited by: Russell Casey on 24/08/2011 13:51:51 Edited by: Russell Casey on 24/08/2011 13:51:35 Edited by: Russell Casey on 24/08/2011 13:51:02 People losing crap left and right would be good for this game.
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daisy cutta
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Posted - 2011.08.24 14:14:00 -
[231]
Oh dear , all the tears about no local in null sec
Yet, these same ppl probably feel that WH space that has no local should lose ABC ores
So for the null bears, you will have to mine your ore without local but still be in alliance space and be able to move as much ore as you like to the market
Here's a thing null bears, your in 0.0 its not safe space
Get used to it
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Psymn
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Posted - 2011.08.24 15:34:00 -
[232]
Edited by: Psymn on 24/08/2011 15:36:06
Originally by: Tippia Edited by: Tippia on 24/08/2011 13:07:14
Originally by: Mary Astell The only gameplay you will encourage by removing local is grossly uneven fights. This will make people blob up even more.
Local already does that, since people know instantly whether it's time to flee or not. What you're saying is that, without local, some of those fights would instead accidentally happen. Uneven or not, this is a good thing.
àand the old fights will still happen for the same reason they happen now.
That said, your scenario hinges on the idea that people will blob up because that is (supposedly) the only cure for no intel. The problem with this idea, of course, is that same intel will be available, only it won't be served on a silver platter.
Originally by: Miss Rabblt Without local (or with seriously reduced intel tool) people will leave even more systems. Good luck with roaming
In other words, people will remain in the systems and the roaming will be more fun since it actually becomes a chase.
i dont know if this is your forum alt but for someone who has zero pvp experience your opinion on this seems unduly confident.
In low sec at least i dont see local as a problem. We get plenty of pvp and ganks. Proper bait and other tactics as well as using that little known mod, known as a point, is all thats required to stop someone from leaving when the tide turns against them.
If anything fix gate / station aggression mechanics to make de-agressing while under fire a non-viable option. This would lead to more combat losses / less unsporting tactics than anything to do with local channels.
People in null can argue all they want. In my area of low sec all that will happen is that muppet ninjas will hot drop every single target they can sneak up on. For example last time they baited us into aggressing:
There should be easy intel to avoid this, local is working as intended - thats 10billion + isk worth of ships to kill 2 cruisers and a bc.
You might say they caught us anyway, even with local. True. But they havent caught us with this particular tactic since. If you think that is a bad thing then you are endorsing the end of all small scale pvp in my area of low-sec and we might as well all join the main pirate power blocks. I cant remember the last time we rolled in anything bigger than frigs that a covert pirate ship wasnt -1'ing us to cyno on top of us if we aggressed anything.
I understand your perspective, its just simplistic and based in ignorance. Without specific details on what will replace local, arguing for its removal is pretty dumb.
I will wait to see what they are going to replace local with tbh.
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Jith
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Posted - 2011.08.24 15:45:00 -
[233]
Im all for removing local.
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Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.24 16:00:00 -
[234]
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Miss Rabblt Without local (or with seriously reduced intel tool) people will leave even more systems. Good luck with roaming
In other words, people will remain in the systems and the roaming will be more fun since it actually becomes a chase.
wow... you fail at reading comprehension -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
Bluekiller Mcawoxer Sklor
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Posted - 2011.08.24 16:06:00 -
[235]
Originally by: Zagdul Edited by: Zagdul on 19/08/2011 10:50:42
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Zagdul
Originally by: baltec1 Because using the D-Scan is impossible
With a covert ops cloak, yep.
Please argue the Wormhole theory.
Cause that theory is easily pooped on. Please, do it.
Few people pvp in wormholes because you cant do a quick roam?
But seriously, keep aligned and they cant catch you.
You're dumb.
"Keep aligned as the cloaked recon points you then lights a cyno and drops a titan on your face, or a black ops fleet, or a gang sitting on a titan."
You can't do that in a wormhole you imbecile.
Also.
I am not trying to avoid combat, I'm looking for it.
I'm a sadistic f$ck who would sit in a belt with my gang next door for hours waiting for you to spring your trap. I want PVP, I don't stay aligned. I wait for you to engage me.
This is the point you miss. I want fights and removing local makes it harder for me to find them.
i'm not reading this whole thread.
but if you REALLY wanted PvP you'd stop being a goon pet in the middle of a sea of blues and go independent. you don't want small gang fights, you want small gang ganks. you want KB efficiency.
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Zagdul
Gallente Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.08.24 16:07:00 -
[236]
Edited by: Zagdul on 24/08/2011 16:18:30
Originally by: Alxea
Originally by: Zagdul Removing local is the most ******ED idea CCP has ever come up with.
Local helps you FIND fights and the way null is right now, most people put a gang together and can't find one. This will make finding PVP HARDER not EASIER.
It will make ganking easier, but that's not PVP, that's PvCB.
Not only that, but this is going to make black ops easy as, well, you never saw us coming, you didn't see us jump into system and well, you don't have our fleet scouted within range either, cause it's cloaked and you have no local.
Removing local is a bad idea and the morons who make the claim that a delayed local, like in wormholes, is a good idea are dumb as they don't think about how unbalanced and boring null/low sec will be when/if they do.
It doesn't help gang warfare in the slightest.
When I take out a 10-20 man gang, we find our hostiles by going into local/intel channels (which are reported by local counts and normally inaccurate ), counting how many bad dudes and deciding to engage or not.
Without local, and by using an "improved scan system" you're now turning, what could be a fast, fun moving gang into a slow, boring one cause you gotta put your faith into a system we're counting on CCP to develop to function as intended.
Good luck
Local works, leave it.
The tears generated from black ops will be glorious, however, this will be niche and short lived. The rest of EVE Online combat will be difficult and hard to find. You will in essence, ruin finding small gangs to fight, just as there is an upswing on small gang warfare.
Please do not evade the profanity filter. Zymurgist
See this is where your wrong hun, because me and my mates have no local in w-space and we find kills all the time. Here is what local is really for... to get insta intel wile your ratting and carebearing if you should safe up and cloak up the moment a neut comes into the system.
You'd be mad bro if your local was suddenly taken away and you wouldn't have insta warning. Carebears are silly how they troll and whine. The moment ccp removes local from null sec and lowsec will be fun. Because its people like you who are too lazy to use D-Scan or be a man and die like one to a surprise cloaky tackler.
W-Space is the most fun because it gives like... the element of surprise and all that. In 0.0 and lowsec you instantly know whats coming because of local and that's pretty broken. Fights are more fun because of the unknown.
I'm not saying it will be a headshot to PVP, however it will make more effort to participate in pvp.
I don't disagree that local as an intelligence tool is stupid and could use something new, I would love for "something" new. The problem is, removing it completely is far more dumb than keeping it in place for the time being.
However, the removal of it without a tool in place, be it a ship radar of some sort then, relying on CCP to do it properly and work is far more risky than what works right now. As I said in my earlier post,
Quote:
The argument of local being removed/delayed is moot. There are far more things in EVE that would contribute to more PVP and local's "fix" may have an effect on PvP, however weather it will add or detract is all speculation.
1000 paper-cuts would help pvp just by focusing on ship balance, broken UI elements, corp management, and getting people out of POS's and out into fleets. There are so many boring, mundane and repetitive tasks that you do in EVE that make logging in and fleeting up seem like even more.
The way to get more people into pvp, is remove the ******ed things you do in EVE that prohibit you from actually participating.
I strongly believe that there are far more things CCP could do that would require much less effort on their part and need fixing that would contribute to positive participation in PVP before removing local would.
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Corvus Dove
Caldari Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.08.24 16:26:00 -
[237]
Edited by: Corvus Dove on 24/08/2011 16:33:28 I remember days where local wasn't auto-join.
Not only was there less lag (watch local populate in JITA and you'll get my meaning) but there were more professions built around PvP.
I myself was a belt pirate .
Yes, you can point out that's PvCB. Yes, it is, and yes, it was fun. It was also fun when a victim turned out to be bait and you found yourself running like hell. The lack of local works both ways, it just means both sides have to think a little more. Any argument against thinking, imho, is an argument in favor of ignorance.
Belt piracy was pretty active. Smart corps worked together to cover their lowsec mining operations, fun was had by both sides as long as both sides used their brains. Some people even ransomed mining rights in lowsec, and the stations actually had more than 5 people in them at a time from different corporations.
I also remember the day that died. I read the "patch notes" thread for that patch and autolocal was not something I remembered seeing. There, 7 posts down, a rather well known pirate (a female character, as I recall), announced the death of dynamic lawlessness and the inception of gatecamping and ganking in one sentence.
"Thank you, CCP, for making sure everyone can now see me when I enter the system."
I might be a little off on specifics but there it is. Auto-local is why 90% of PvP is at a gate, why massive blobs are favored in alliance CTAs, and why you can't do **** in a system for days because some red AFK'd in it just to be a prick and you have no idea when he's watching and when he isn't. Supercaps need a nerf (turn off that damn immunity to ECM) but the biggest problem with sov warfare is that most of the battles are fought by the counter at the top of local, and those that aren't are partially fought by the lag of LOADING local.
And it doesn't break the game to remove local. Look at wormholes. Those clearly are profitable and people have fun in them, and they don't have auto-join to local. Anyone screaming that the sky is falling just because of a loss of local is spending way too much time in hisec.
EDIT: YOU HAVE A SHIP RADAR ALREADY. It's called d-scan. And there's a rule about it. If it appears on d-scan it's too late. Same would be true of an auto-loading radar....that little white blip coming at you is already in warp and has weapons and tackle hot. ------------------------------------ I like long walks, a good book before bed, and human entrails served cold with a side order of scrap metal. |
Packe
Minmatar Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.
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Posted - 2011.08.24 16:45:00 -
[238]
Removing local removes Bots. People complain about tech moons, but the real isk is running bots in all that unvisited space. Bots rely on local changes to log/warp. For this reason alone CCP should do it. I suspect all the "dont remove local" whiners in this thread also run bots.
To Adapt:
People travelling in Null sec better have gate load ups and the ability to use D-Scan. Cloaks will become more prelevent. Scouts will become more important, tracking a tempest fleet fit with cloaks for instance will become crucial. Black ops fleets will become really useful Ratting/Mining - wow - man I can see that it's risky to do, but how easy to set up bait? You probably want to make sure you have a cyno on your ratting drake tho :P
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations
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Posted - 2011.08.24 16:50:00 -
[239]
Originally by: Packe
Removing local removes Bots. People complain about tech moons, but the real isk is running bots in all that unvisited space. Bots rely on local changes to log/warp. For this reason alone CCP should do it. I suspect all the "dont remove local" whiners in this thread also run bots.
To Adapt:
People travelling in Null sec better have gate load ups and the ability to use D-Scan. Cloaks will become more prelevent. Scouts will become more important, tracking a tempest fleet fit with cloaks for instance will become crucial. Black ops fleets will become really useful Ratting/Mining - wow - man I can see that it's risky to do, but how easy to set up bait? You probably want to make sure you have a cyno on your ratting drake tho :P
The bots are pulling information from the server packets so unless the server packets contain 0 meta data about pilot ships entering the system, the bots will still know when it occurs.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.24 16:53:00 -
[240]
Originally by: Corvus Dove Yes, you can point out that's PvCB. Yes, it is, and yes, it was fun. It was also fun when a victim turned out to be bait and you found yourself running like hell. The lack of local works both ways, it just means both sides have to think a little more. Any argument against thinking, imho, is an argument in favor of ignorance.
As you take away intel there is less thinking involved and more luck. Those who want to take away local are those in favor of ignorance.
When you see local you may have noticed the same person there from 50 minutes ago. Hence he is likely docked up and not there with the new person you see on scan. Of course with no local none of this intel would be available so every fight will just be a coin toss.
What is the only way to increase your chances in this new game with less intel? Get the biggest blob you can.
Flipping a coin and guessing heads or tails doesn't take much thought. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
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HyShade
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Posted - 2011.08.24 17:02:00 -
[241]
I think the inevitable "solution" for CCP is to remove everything from EvE everywhere, except their NEX store and walking in stations. That way, nothing can be abused, exploited, botted, or ganked, ever.
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Corvus Dove
Caldari Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.08.24 17:41:00 -
[242]
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Corvus Dove Yes, you can point out that's PvCB. Yes, it is, and yes, it was fun. It was also fun when a victim turned out to be bait and you found yourself running like hell. The lack of local works both ways, it just means both sides have to think a little more. Any argument against thinking, imho, is an argument in favor of ignorance.
As you take away intel there is less thinking involved and more luck. Those who want to take away local are those in favor of ignorance.
I agree with the first statement somewhat, less with the second. There is nothing Intel does now that having a dude in an Anathema cloaked in a safespot can't do, other than make the intel effortless to receive, and therein lies the issue. The only exception would be cloaking devices, but they have their own cluster of nerfs that prevent them from being a win button.
Quote:
When you see local you may have noticed the same person there from 50 minutes ago. Hence he is likely docked up and not there with the new person you see on scan. Of course with no local none of this intel would be available so every fight will just be a coin toss.
That is a lowsec-only assumption and in itself a rare instance. If they are docked, you can dock and see for yourself. In fact, not only are they likely NOT going to be docked, but this is still intel that can be gained simply by having someone out there with probes. Probes eliminate the "need" for local.
Quote:
What is the only way to increase your chances in this new game with less intel? Get the biggest blob you can.
This is true regardless of intel. The bigger the fleet, the more DPS/Logi/ECM you have. However, our engagements against superior numbers (ATLAS and Cascade Imminent being "us") in Delve and Querious actually prove that fleet size matters less than fleet composition and competent FC's. In nearly all of these engagements, the intel had less to do with local and a lot more to do with having a cloaked scout in position observing the enemy, and bringing the right tools for the job. Your point simply doesn't exist in the real world.
Quote: Flipping a coin and guessing heads or tails doesn't take much thought.
There will always be a degree of luck involved. That's part of the point. Every time you go through a gate without a scout you flip a coin anyway. Local's presence doesn't change any of that. But neither should a chat channel be used as a method to tell whether or not you should flip the coin in advance. That's not intel, that's saying you won't flip it unless it's double-headed and you get to be heads.
Intel, real intel, is obtained through the efforts of the players, or at least should be. The map used to tell you instantly how many there were in a system and CCP put in a delay because people used the map like people use Local now. Luck is a component of risk, and the risk/reward ratio is what keeps EVE spinning when it's at its best. ------------------------------------ I like long walks, a good book before bed, and human entrails served cold with a side order of scrap metal. |
Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.24 17:47:00 -
[243]
Originally by: Packe
Removing local removes Bots.
Sounds like the BS Helicity was saying about H'geddon not being about griefing
same argument same lies -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
Corvus Dove
Caldari Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.08.24 18:22:00 -
[244]
Originally by: Sullen Skoung
Originally by: Packe
Removing local removes Bots.
Sounds like the BS Helicity was saying about H'geddon not being about griefing
same argument same lies
Time and time again, CCP has come out and said they encourage scamming, backstabbing, hostility, violence, tomfoolery, asshattery, and general acts of questionable morality in EVE-Online. Hell, even the alliance tourney was openly rigged after months spent on espionage and manipulation, and what did CCP do to those who won 1st and 2nd place?
Gave them their badass AF and AHAC prizes and a pat on the back for a job well done.
TL;DR = EVE is a game where griefing is rewarded. Love it or leave.
If you've never been called a griefer in EVE for something you did, be it on the market or in space or whathaveyou, yer doin it wrong. ------------------------------------ I like long walks, a good book before bed, and human entrails served cold with a side order of scrap metal. |
Burtzum
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Posted - 2011.08.24 18:26:00 -
[245]
Remove local and remove gate camps and this game would be a lot more fun.
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Corvus Dove
Caldari Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.08.24 18:36:00 -
[246]
Originally by: Burtzum Remove local and remove gate camps and this game would be a lot more fun.
One helps resolve the other. Removing local would lower the number of gatecamps as it would no longer be necessary to sit on a gate to be able to hit a target. You would be able to catch them at various points in the system.
The other issue with gatecamps, however, is no matter what, they'll exist to a degree. It's still the inbound path from any other system unless a jump bridge is present or a wh, and the bridges are only in 0.0.
The only way you could get rid of them completely is for all inbound jumps to put you at a random point WAY off the grid in a system, such as where one might log in if logged out in space. That would make camping a gate without a dictor bubble or warp dis. bubble (again, 0.0 only) really pointless, and just make it necessary for fleets to form back up after each jump (easily done "warp to x location as soon as you go through" in TS).
------------------------------------ I like long walks, a good book before bed, and human entrails served cold with a side order of scrap metal. |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.24 19:03:00 -
[247]
Originally by: Corvus Dove
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Corvus Dove Yes, you can point out that's PvCB. Yes, it is, and yes, it was fun. It was also fun when a victim turned out to be bait and you found yourself running like hell. The lack of local works both ways, it just means both sides have to think a little more. Any argument against thinking, imho, is an argument in favor of ignorance.
As you take away intel there is less thinking involved and more luck. Those who want to take away local are those in favor of ignorance.
I agree with the first statement somewhat, less with the second. There is nothing Intel does now that having a dude in an Anathema cloaked in a safespot can't do, other than make the intel effortless to receive, and therein lies the issue. The only exception would be cloaking devices, but they have their own cluster of nerfs that prevent them from being a win button.
Well you need an extra person to sit in that anathema don't you? So pvp is requiring more people.
Also not all "effort" equals good game play. Probing and having to hit the dscan button every 2 seconds is not really good gameplay. Those things are just a pain in the neck that local helps solve.
Its all really hard to find any sort of quality pvp in eve. The last thing we need is to boost the amount of effort needed. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.24 19:10:00 -
[248]
Originally by: Corvus Dove
Originally by: Cearain
What is the only way to increase your chances in this new game with less intel? Get the biggest blob you can.
This is true regardless of intel. The bigger the fleet, the more DPS/Logi/ECM you have. However, our engagements against superior numbers (ATLAS and Cascade Imminent being "us") in Delve and Querious actually prove that fleet size matters less than fleet composition and competent FC's. In nearly all of these engagements, the intel had less to do with local and a lot more to do with having a cloaked scout in position observing the enemy, and bringing the right tools for the job. Your point simply doesn't exist in the real world.
Actually unlike in eve with no local real armies often have to be stationed at different places and that leads to smaller battles. Eve with no local you will just get every single soldier into one huge army are go blobbing.
Yes eve is already like that now to some extent. The question is do we want to make that even more the case. Thanks to local smaller groups can attack others and have decent smaller fights. Now when you see a ship there and want to attack you will have no way to tell if there are 50 of his friends cloaked right there on grid. It's just stupid. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.24 19:17:00 -
[249]
Originally by: Corvus Dove
There will always be a degree of luck involved. That's part of the point. Every time you go through a gate without a scout you flip a coin anyway. Local's presence doesn't change any of that. But neither should a chat channel be used as a method to tell whether or not you should flip the coin in advance. That's not intel, that's saying you won't flip it unless it's double-headed and you get to be heads.
Yes it will effect your chances. There is calculated risk and there is dumb luck risk. No local will make more pvp into "dumb luck risk" catagory.
There is already plenty of risk in doing small gang and solo pvp. Local gives you some chance not to get blobbed every time. But you will still get blobbed plenty of times. If you haven't tried it, you should. You will see there is already plenty of risk doing solo or small gang pvp. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Corvus Dove
Caldari Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.08.24 19:35:00 -
[250]
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Corvus Dove
There will always be a degree of luck involved. That's part of the point. Every time you go through a gate without a scout you flip a coin anyway. Local's presence doesn't change any of that. But neither should a chat channel be used as a method to tell whether or not you should flip the coin in advance. That's not intel, that's saying you won't flip it unless it's double-headed and you get to be heads.
Yes it will effect your chances. There is calculated risk and there is dumb luck risk. No local will make more pvp into "dumb luck risk" catagory.
There is already plenty of risk in doing small gang and solo pvp. Local gives you some chance not to get blobbed every time. But you will still get blobbed plenty of times. If you haven't tried it, you should. You will see there is already plenty of risk doing solo or small gang pvp.
I do it all, from massive 800 man fleets in nullsec to trolling around null and low in a self-sufficient T3 to sitting in a pilgrim while a buddy mines, waiting for the can flipper to show up. The key is always tactics and really, local being autojoin has just led to less diverse fights.
I have also been around both before and after Local went auto-join.
From that perspective:
The primary problem with pvp is ALWAYS finding something to kill.
The secondary problem is finding something you CAN kill.
Local is the cause of the first. It was a problem before, and one had to 'hunt' to do the job, but it was fun. Imagine a hunter with a bow stalking grazing deer. Most would run, he might nail a deer or two but once one goes down the rest split. EVE, however, gave the deer the opportunity to go pick up assault rifles and come back for the hunter.
Once local went auto-join, it was akin to the hunter driving through the forest in a bulldozer slamming the horn over and over and wondering why the deer were nowhere to be seen. The result? Blobs. We had blobs before, don't get me wrong. Mo0's legendary camp of Mara (if you don't know it it's worth a look) showed that a well placed blob was a more uncommon thing but did occur way before sentry guns, auto-local, and all the other pro-carebear nerfs that were bought with twice as many tears. Some of these I agree with, but auto-local I do not.
Because of said hunter with said bulldozer and said horn, blobs became essential. This was aggravated with the advent of battlecruisers due to a sudden spike in weenies with huge tanks. You had to overwhelm the deer by surrounding the entire field with hunters and bulldoze the **** out of it just to make sure you killed anything, much less everything (i.e. gatecamps). There was a definite and noticeable INCREASE in blobbing due to auto-local.
Yes, you'll need that extra person. That's what corps are for. Before auto-local, busy systems at dropoffs had people who would scout ahead just for the asking. Half of eve has alts that never train past t1 frigates to pop cynos and scout. In all things in EVE there is a calculated risk that is preemptive to any dumb luck risk.
A fundament of game design is this: "can the players do this feasibly without creating a mechanic". If so, you don't create the mechanic. Can players gather constant intel on an entire system without local? Yes. How long will it take? a 7 second cycle on a covert frig. Thus, is the mechanic needed? No. Does local aggravate lag? Yes, tremendously so when over 300 people. The solution is clear. ------------------------------------ I like long walks, a good book before bed, and human entrails served cold with a side order of scrap metal. |
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yopparai
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Posted - 2011.08.24 20:03:00 -
[251]
Zagdul you are the biggest douche bag in this game. That is all.
Yopp
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.24 20:11:00 -
[252]
Originally by: Corvus Dove ....Yes, you'll need that extra person. ...
Yep forget about solo pvp.
I and many others often don't have time to wait around for fleets to form. We jsut get in a ship and roam around. No local will pretty much make this game an unplayable pia for us.
Also your whole post is just assuming pvcb. All this talk of hunting deer. There is other pvp.
No local will effect how big of a gang you can go out in. And the effect will be much less small scale or solo pvp. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Corvus Dove
Caldari Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.08.24 20:17:00 -
[253]
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Corvus Dove ....Yes, you'll need that extra person. ...
Yep forget about solo pvp.
I and many others often don't have time to wait around for fleets to form. We jsut get in a ship and roam around. No local will pretty much make this game an unplayable pia for us.
Also your whole post is just assuming pvcb. All this talk of hunting deer. There is other pvp.
No local will effect how big of a gang you can go out in. And the effect will be much less small scale or solo pvp.
I was speaking from my perspective pre-autojoin yes. But it doesn't just apply there. Clearly you ignored everything else I said.
I was doing solo pvp before local was auto-join. Succesfully. How? "Kills in the last hour" on the map. Combine that with "ships in space in the last hour" and you've got a formula for knowing what's on the other side of that gate. I know, it's amazing these tools exist that people forgot about.
Why?
Because now they just check local. ------------------------------------ I like long walks, a good book before bed, and human entrails served cold with a side order of scrap metal. |
Rhinanna
Minmatar Brutor Tribe
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Posted - 2011.08.24 20:51:00 -
[254]
Or perhaps because they nerfed them and they aren't accurate anymore?
But yeah, keep making huge assumptions without checking please ;) -The sword is only as sharp as the one who wields it. Drenzul (My normal internet tag) |
Corvus Dove
Caldari Di-Tron Heavy Industries Atlas.
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Posted - 2011.08.24 20:54:00 -
[255]
Originally by: Rhinanna Or perhaps because they nerfed them and they aren't accurate anymore?
But yeah, keep making huge assumptions without checking please ;)
They did nerf them, to make them no longer real-time accurate, to counter blobbing and reduce server load.
Thus the "last hour" bit. They still function, but you have to use your brain. Is that 100 man fleet that was there an hour ago still there? Well, how many kills happened in the last 30 minutes....oh....so they might be, they might not be....
And here's where calculated risk enters the equation. Not dumb luck as has been suggested. ------------------------------------ I like long walks, a good book before bed, and human entrails served cold with a side order of scrap metal. |
Sullen Skoung
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Posted - 2011.08.24 21:35:00 -
[256]
Originally by: Corvus Dove
TL;DR = EVE is a game where griefing is rewarded. Love it or leave.
I believe that was my point, glad you agree lol -------- CCP knows better than the players whats good for their game. SOE knew what was best for SWG too. Better than all those players that left too. |
Bootleg Jack
Potters Field
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Posted - 2011.08.24 21:44:00 -
[257]
Disagree with OP, 4 accounts, mind made up, don't care how many people he calls dumb.
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Russell Casey
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Posted - 2011.08.25 00:06:00 -
[258]
Originally by: Cearain Now when you see a ship there and want to attack you will have no way to tell if there are 50 of his friends cloaked right there on grid.
Or if they're waiting in the system next door. Does anyone in here ever actually use a D-scan? Or designate scouts in their roams to use d-scan.
Y'know, d-scan. Not probing for half an hour, I mean just flying around popping d-scan in a fast ship like it's intended to?
Or do they blast right on to the next system if there's less than 5 people in local (and you wonder why you keep running into ambushes as it is)?
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Sloppy Podfarts
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Posted - 2011.08.25 03:18:00 -
[259]
DEATH TO LOCAL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.25 13:07:00 -
[260]
Originally by: Corvus Dove
Originally by: Rhinanna Or perhaps because they nerfed them and they aren't accurate anymore?
But yeah, keep making huge assumptions without checking please ;)
They did nerf them, to make them no longer real-time accurate, to counter blobbing and reduce server load.
Thus the "last hour" bit. They still function, but you have to use your brain. Is that 100 man fleet that was there an hour ago still there? Well, how many kills happened in the last 30 minutes....oh....so they might be, they might not be....
And here's where calculated risk enters the equation. Not dumb luck as has been suggested.
I fail to see how kills in the last hour helps a solo pvper.
I have never been in a fleet that sat in the same system for longer than probably 30 minutes (other than where we were forming up)
Now for killing carebears perhaps looking at npcs killed in the last hour is helpful.
Otherwise going into the buggy map interface is not worth it.
Also its been mentioned before gate camping will get a boost from this. Your logic that "they won't have to gate camp" is not well taken. Nobody has to gate camp now. People gate camp because it involves the least amount of risk.
If there is no local all other pvp will involve much more risk and gate camping only slightly more risk. In other words gate camping will be even more attractive.
But yeah all pvp will involve more risk that you can't mitigate other than blobbing up. This will make pvp even more based on dumb luck and uninviting to a risk averse playerbase. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.25 13:09:00 -
[261]
Originally by: Corvus Dove
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Corvus Dove ....Yes, you'll need that extra person. ...
Yep forget about solo pvp.
I and many others often don't have time to wait around for fleets to form. We jsut get in a ship and roam around. No local will pretty much make this game an unplayable pia for us.
Also your whole post is just assuming pvcb. All this talk of hunting deer. There is other pvp.
No local will effect how big of a gang you can go out in. And the effect will be much less small scale or solo pvp.
I was speaking from my perspective pre-autojoin yes. But it doesn't just apply there. Clearly you ignored everything else I said.
I was just picking out something we can both agree on. You won't be able to go solo anymore.
I did read the rest of your post and explained your longwinded analogy of deer and hunter applies to pvcb not pvp.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Saladin Boneslash
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Posted - 2011.08.25 15:40:00 -
[262]
Originally by: Cearain No local will effect how big of a gang you can go out in. And the effect will be much less small scale or solo pvp.
The one place in EvE with no local right now is w-space. And we all know that pvp in w-space is mostly blobs, right? Very little solo and small gang pvp there, for sure.
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.25 15:49:00 -
[263]
Clearly the OP and the others against removing local are only worried about their SOLO "0.0 carebear way of life" and they don't see the big picture.
1st- Bots will have alot more trouble to do their job 2nd- Piracy in nullsec is dead because of local, removing it may resurrect it from the grave. 3rd- If bots don't work or are harder to make work, the actual player ratting/mining will see their income increase due the increase of named modules/mineral prices. 4th- Force the 0.0 alliances to defend their space and carebear members from small roaming gangs, what will actually add to more PVP (consensual or otherwise).
Now stop looking at your own belly button and try to see the big picture of 0.0 without local. Dangerous, mysterious, unpredictable and exciting, where the ones that adapt win the isk and fortune and where the weak and unwilling to adapt die.
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Newt Rondanse
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Posted - 2011.08.25 16:02:00 -
[264]
Originally by: Aelius Edited by: Aelius on 25/08/2011 15:49:57 Clearly the OP and the others against removing local are only worried about their SOLO "0.0 carebear way of life" and they don't see the big picture.
1st- Bots will have alot more trouble to do their job 2nd- Piracy in nullsec is dead because of local, removing it may resurrect it from the grave. 3rd- If bots don't work or are harder to make work, the actual player ratting/mining will see their income increase due the increase of named modules/mineral prices. 4th- Force the 0.0 alliances to defend their space and carebear members from small roaming gangs, what will actually add to more PVP (consensual or otherwise).
Now stop looking at your own belly button and try to see the big picture of 0.0 without local. Dangerous, mysterious, unpredictable and exciting, where the ones that adapt win the isk and fortune. Where the weak and unwilling to adapt die.
Interesting assertions.
Unfortunately, totally false.
Bots would have an advantage in adapting to a loss of the intel feature of local since dscan is quite bot friendly, and rather annoying for humans (besides covering a large portion of screen real estate with a plain, ugly window).
Bots also have no need to communicate with players that might be passing through the system. Quite a few players actually like saying hi to blues (or even neuts) as they fly into or through a system. Taunting reds might even be a possibility, as it could result in a roam stopping to hunt you, which can be a desirable action for many reasons.
I might suggest you stop staring at your own belly button and consider that in a social game there is a need for more means of interaction than "I shot you! You're dead now!"
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Shepard Book
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Posted - 2011.08.25 16:02:00 -
[265]
Remove the local!
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DoctorDanny
TunDraGon
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Posted - 2011.08.25 16:04:00 -
[266]
1) Remove Local. 2) Learn to use the scanner. 3) Fun!
Anyone saying anything other hasn't taken step 2) yet.
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Newt Rondanse
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Posted - 2011.08.25 16:08:00 -
[267]
Originally by: DoctorDanny 1) Remove Local. 2) Learn to use the scanner. 3) Fun!
Anyone saying anything other hasn't taken step 2) yet.
Obviously you have no need to talk to people.
Given your keen demonstration of persuasive skills, I'm not surprised.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.25 17:17:00 -
[268]
Originally by: Saladin Boneslash
Originally by: Cearain No local will effect how big of a gang you can go out in. And the effect will be much less small scale or solo pvp.
The one place in EvE with no local right now is w-space. And we all know that pvp in w-space is mostly blobs, right? Very little solo and small gang pvp there, for sure.
The only thing we know is there is very little pvp there at all. We know this from the QEN's.
If we move away from the facts and into speculation. I would bet a much larger percent of the "pvp" in wormholes actually involves "pvcb" than in null or low sec.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations
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Posted - 2011.08.25 17:27:00 -
[269]
Edited by: Mendolus on 25/08/2011 17:29:02 Edited by: Mendolus on 25/08/2011 17:27:56
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Saladin Boneslash
Originally by: Cearain No local will effect how big of a gang you can go out in. And the effect will be much less small scale or solo pvp.
The one place in EvE with no local right now is w-space. And we all know that pvp in w-space is mostly blobs, right? Very little solo and small gang pvp there, for sure.
The only thing we know is there is very little pvp there at all. We know this from the QEN's.
If we move away from the facts and into speculation. I would bet a much larger percent of the "pvp" in wormholes actually involves "pvcb" than in null or low sec.
I think as someone pointed out elsewhere, there is a healthy amount of PvP in wormholes per capita.
If this is true, it means that while there may be less PvP in wormholes than the rest of the game, there is a high percentage of it per player in wormholes compared to that same percentage of players in k-space.
I do agree with you though, using wormholes as an excuse for why no local would work is an oversimplification of two very different and complex systems. No local works in wormholes because... they are wormholes. No local in k-space, specifically in 0.0? Troubling at best.
Not necessarily because it may or may not facilitate more or less PvP, but more so from a design perspective.
The last thing we need in an MMO are fewer ways for players to interact directly or get a sense of social strata when they logon to the game, i.e. as someone pointed out in this thread I think, who wants to logon to EVE and never know if there is anyone out there in space with you or not? It is fine that you can get these experiences in wormholes, but for the entirety of 0.0?
It's a step backwards, which is what I think most people can agree on, there needs to be better intelligence gathering tools, not less of them, period.
A net gain is what most people want I think, whether that means local goes on delayed mode but we get some seriously slick automated tools based on skills, fittings, and settings in order to detect other ships in space or use some sort of player controlled infrastructure like POS modules, that update sovereign holders and their deep blues with ship scan results in their directional scanner interfaces or whatever... a net gain over what we have is the common goal, whatever that may be, we shall find out in a few months.
I can assure you that the likelihood of CCP backing down from whatever it is they are actually planning is exceptionally low, so let's just wait for it to hit SiSi before we spend weeks debating intangibles, at least until we have something concrete to go on.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.25 17:33:00 -
[270]
I will try to break this down as much as I can.
For the sake of argument lets say I agree with many anti-local peoples claims: 1)removing local will increase the risk of engaging in pvp. (Specifically you will have an increased risk of getting blobbed.)
2)removing local will increase the chances of being able to gank a carebear that is in low or null sec.
What effect will this have?
Consider the first point. Do you think increasing the risk (especially the risk of getting blobbed) will make an already risk adverse group more likely to engage in that activity? Eve pvp is already hard enough to find. The problem is the playerbase is risk adverse as it is. Increasing the chances that you will lose your ship to a sensless blobbing will not increase the pvp.
Now consider the second point. Do you think this will drive more people to do missions/industry in low sec and null sec or fewer? Is it better to have more or fewer people in pvp areas of new eden?
Lets say you are going to make your isk in low sec or null sec anyway. You will now have to constantly click on your d scanner making it even more of a hassle to earn your isk. Are you going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more or less? If you are going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more are you more likely or less likely to engage in even higher risk pvp?
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.25 17:54:00 -
[271]
Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 25/08/2011 17:30:32
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Saladin Boneslash
Originally by: Cearain No local will effect how big of a gang you can go out in. And the effect will be much less small scale or solo pvp.
The one place in EvE with no local right now is w-space. And we all know that pvp in w-space is mostly blobs, right? Very little solo and small gang pvp there, for sure.
The only thing we know is there is very little pvp there at all. We know this from the QEN's.
If we move away from the facts and into speculation. I would bet a much larger percent of the "pvp" in wormholes actually involves "pvcb" than in null or low sec.
I think as someone pointed out elsewhere, there is a healthy amount of PvP in wormholes per capita.
If this is true....
Its not true. Here are the facts based on the QENs:
Here is the third quater distribution according to the 4th quater report of population (page 10) and the 3rd quarter report of kills per part of eve.http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q3-2010.pdf (page 9):
low sec: 6.95% of the population but accounts for 29% of all the kills Null sec: 11.07 of the population and accounts for 51% of the kills wh 2.42% of the population and accounts for only 4% of the kills.
So we get: 4.17 kills per pilot low sec 4.6 kills per pilot null sec and 1.65 kills per pilot wh
Its clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for pvp.
Do these facts have any effect on your opinion?
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation Eternal Evocations
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Posted - 2011.08.25 18:05:00 -
[272]
Originally by: Cearain
So we get: 4.17 kills per pilot low sec 4.6 kills per pilot null sec and 1.65 kills per pilot wh
Its clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for pvp.
Do these facts have any effect on your opinion?
It depends, are we concerned with discrete points of data or continuous patterns of consistent warfare? It is my understanding that even though you can see nearly half of all ship losses in the game out in null, that it is skewed due to blobbing.
What I think people in this thread are most concerned about is the continued viability of small to medium sized gang warfare. Now when you think about wormholes, sure I know of plenty of corporations that live in relatively large quantities (think a couple hundred, but only half that active at any given time) out in wormholes exclusively.
The issue I think would be is there more small to medium gang combat per capita in wormholes than there is in a null, and why? It certainly is not explicitly due to their being no local I imagine, but more due to the high cost of living there in time and energy that differs from null at present.
Numbers mean something in null, but in wormholes, you stuff a thousand dudes in a C3 and you're going to have a ton of bellyaching and boredom, so the numbers in holes reflect more accurately what that space can and cannot support, whereas in null you got a thousand dudes in a fleet defending a few systems that can only technically support a small fraction of those players, but represents a slice of a larger pie. In wormholes, your hole basically IS the pie.
So I understand the numbers sure, but those numbers will not tell us whether there is more small to medium gang warfare in holes per capita compared to null sec. Need more data for that.
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Welsige
Gallente Ad Vita Noctu Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.25 18:21:00 -
[273]
Originally by: Cearain
Its not true. Here are the facts based on the QENs:
Here is the third quater distribution according to the 4th quater report of population (page 10) and the 3rd quarter report of kills per part of eve.http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q3-2010.pdf (page 9):
low sec: 6.95% of the population but accounts for 29% of all the kills Null sec: 11.07 of the population and accounts for 51% of the kills wh 2.42% of the population and accounts for only 4% of the kills.
So we get: 4.17 kills per pilot low sec 4.6 kills per pilot null sec and 1.65 kills per pilot wh
Its clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for pvp.
Do these facts have any effect on your opinion?
The only benefit i see about removing local functionality is making it harder to make a life in low sec. I see a reduction in mining and industry, and ratting also, afterall the grunts have to earn isk to get ships.
I really dont see myself taking my tengu for a ride at the next system if theres no intel about it, that way it will be far more harder to get isk to fund my pvp activities.
The benefited ones will be gankers and griefers that come to null systems in the hope of killing people that make other things in null then pvp without warning or consequence - since its far easier to gankers to evade defense fleets since no one knows where they are -, and ccp that will see a rise in plex sells because the carebears will start buying plex instead of ratting.
Things that arent broken should not be fixed. Give me a way to track cloakies that stay too much time idleing in the systems consuming precious server cpu power, that would be fun to pop.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.25 22:57:00 -
[274]
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Cearain
So we get: 4.17 kills per pilot low sec 4.6 kills per pilot null sec and 1.65 kills per pilot wh
Its clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for pvp.
Do these facts have any effect on your opinion?
It depends, are we concerned with discrete points of data or continuous patterns of consistent warfare? .....
So I understand the numbers sure, but those numbers will not tell us whether there is more small to medium gang warfare in holes per capita compared to null sec. Need more data for that.
Low sec is pretty much all small gang pvp. It has well over 2xs as much pvp per capita as worm holes.
Like I said this is what we know. We can speculate beyond that but we shouldn't forget what we know. And we know that you can get over 2xs as much pvp per capita in low sec.
I would speculate that in worm holes allot of the lossmails have ships that are not fit for pvp. It's just people ganking pve ships and industrials so its really pvcb.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.26 06:57:00 -
[275]
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Cearain
So we get: 4.17 kills per pilot low sec 4.6 kills per pilot null sec and 1.65 kills per pilot wh
Its clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for pvp.
Do these facts have any effect on your opinion?
It depends, are we concerned with discrete points of data or continuous patterns of consistent warfare? .....
So I understand the numbers sure, but those numbers will not tell us whether there is more small to medium gang warfare in holes per capita compared to null sec. Need more data for that.
Low sec is pretty much all small gang pvp. It has well over 2xs as much pvp per capita as worm holes.
Like I said this is what we know. We can speculate beyond that but we shouldn't forget what we know. And we know that you can get over 2xs as much pvp per capita in low sec.
I would speculate that in worm holes allot of the lossmails have ships that are not fit for pvp. It's just people ganking pve ships and industrials so its really pvcb.
What makes WH have such a low percentile is not the absence of local, but the need to scan the WHs and targets (usually the targets are somewhere only warpable after scan). We all know how scanning is boring and time consuming. I would bet my life if WH had local that the percentile would be even lower.
0.0 doesn't have the "scan to find a route/target" problem, thus it will be PVP on steroids. Trust me on this, i know EVE and i can guarantee you that no local means more PVP, because most of times PVP is not consensual. It must be fueled by the unpredictable and the unexpected. A 50 VS 10 fight will never happen in the current state of things (with local), but without local certain about wining or losing is no longer there and a 50 VS 10 may actually happen.
And one more thing, no local is not equal to more blobs, because a small mobile force can outrun/outsmart a big fleet. Bringing the biggest blob wont insure victory, because without local, surprises may happen.
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
baltec1
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Posted - 2011.08.26 07:12:00 -
[276]
Originally by: Cearain
So we get: 4.17 kills per pilot low sec 4.6 kills per pilot null sec and 1.65 kills per pilot wh
Its clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for pvp.
Do these facts have any effect on your opinion?
No because people dont pvp in WH because of the fact that you cannot have a quick roam then go home.
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.26 07:45:00 -
[277]
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Cearain
So we get: 4.17 kills per pilot low sec 4.6 kills per pilot null sec and 1.65 kills per pilot wh
Its clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for pvp.
Do these facts have any effect on your opinion?
No because people dont pvp in WH because of the fact that you cannot have a quick roam then go home.
Exactly baltec.
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.26 14:08:00 -
[278]
Edited by: Cearain on 26/08/2011 14:08:53
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Cearain
So we get: 4.17 kills per pilot low sec 4.6 kills per pilot null sec and 1.65 kills per pilot wh
Its clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for pvp.
Do these facts have any effect on your opinion?
No because people dont pvp in WH because of the fact that you cannot have a quick roam then go home.
That is one reason. But the worm holes are rigt there in many systems. Solo roamers and small gangs could easilly jump in and see whats happening and jump out.
But then there is the other problem. No local. Most pvp roamers (especially solo) don't want to have to waste a high slot to fit a probe launcher to their ship in order to simply see if anyone is even there. They don't want to waste time scanning down systems just to find out no one is even there.
Finding pvp is hard enough with local. Very few people on a pvp roam want the extra hassle of not having a local to tell them if anyone is even in the system.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.08.26 14:37:00 -
[279]
Edited by: Signal11th on 26/08/2011 14:43:35
Originally by: Cearain Edited by: Cearain on 26/08/2011 14:08:53
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Cearain
So we get: 4.17 kills per pilot low sec 4.6 kills per pilot null sec and 1.65 kills per pilot wh
Its clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for pvp.
Do these facts have any effect on your opinion?
No because people dont pvp in WH because of the fact that you cannot have a quick roam then go home.
That is one reason. But the worm holes are rigt there in many systems. Solo roamers and small gangs could easilly jump in and see whats happening and jump out.
But then there is the other problem. No local. Most pvp roamers (especially solo) don't want to have to waste a high slot to fit a probe launcher to their ship in order to simply see if anyone is even there. They don't want to waste time scanning down systems just to find out no one is even there.
Finding pvp is hard enough with local. Very few people on a pvp roam want the extra hassle of not having a local to tell them if anyone is even in the system.
Your obviously just not getting it???
So what you need to fit a launcher ?? it's no biggie? I would hope if they removed local they would give you a better set of scanning tools? Anyone worth his salt could scan a system in under 30 seconds and see if anyone is there?
There is a saying "Don't knock it until you try it" it's obvious the current system isn't working so why not try something different. If it works great if it doesn't try something else.
PVP is hard to find because of local,It's an instant intel tool which tells people someone appeared in their system, time to dock up or wait 20 mintues to form a 30 man blob to kill them. You remove local, yes you will make large blobs a problem (gatecampers on pipes are excluded) but small and solo will benefit so much.
What your missing out on is the inherent greediness of most players, you remove local they hide after a week of no isk they will venture out.
As it stands deep in 0.0 you have 10 minutes pre warning of any neutrals/reds so everyone docks up and either logs or tries to arrange uber fleet to kill the neut gang. After reading alot of the replies it just seems that it's people that want trouble free ratting in 0.0 are moaning.
0.0 is suppossed to be a lawless cold unknown frontier at the moment it's like sitting in front of a fire with your grandparents being fed sweets. It's a warm fuzzy place full of nice blues , intel channels and convienent pipes in to satisfy easy ganks.
All it reeks of is laziness, I want to rat in peace, I want shiny shiny. When I started in EVE you read on the forums/in game about 0.0 being this scary place full of the best pilots that eve has to offer, well after spending a couple of years in 0.0 I've found it full of a hardcore of great players/CEO's but the majority being lazy ass mofo's who just want to rat all day and are mysteriously logged off when a CTA or roam is called.
Get rid of local and make 0.0 the place it's suppossed to be not the place it's been made into.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.26 15:28:00 -
[280]
Remove the numbers of kills that occur due to gate camps in low/null sec, recalculate then report back.
Wormhole PvP is something you go looking for, not waiting for defenseless ships to happen to come across your gate camp.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.26 15:55:00 -
[281]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst Remove the numbers of kills that occur due to gate camps in low/null sec, recalculate then report back.
Wormhole PvP is something you go looking for, not waiting for defenseless ships to happen to come across your gate camp.
The percentage of kills due to gate camps without local will only go up. With local you can often avoid gate camps. With out it they are going to be a real pain.
I would bet a much higher percent of the kills in worm holes are p-v-cb. I dont think these are just as bad as gate camp ganks.
Like I said we can both speculate about the types of kills. But I would like those in the anti- local camp to answer these questions that I posed earlier in this thread and got no responses:
For the sake of argument lets say I agree with many anti-local peoples claims: 1)removing local will increase the risk of engaging in pvp. (Specifically you will have an increased risk of getting blobbed.)
2)removing local will increase the chances of being able to gank a carebear that is in low or null sec.
What effect will this have?
Consider the first point. Do you think increasing the risk (especially the risk of getting blobbed) will make an already risk adverse group more likely to engage in that activity? Eve pvp is already hard enough to find. The problem is the playerbase is risk adverse as it is. Increasing the chances that you will lose your ship to a sensless blobbing will not increase the pvp.
Now consider the second point. Do you think this will drive more people to do missions/industry in low sec and null sec or fewer? Is it better to have more or fewer people in pvp areas of new eden?
Lets say you are going to make your isk in low sec or null sec anyway. You will now have to constantly click on your d scanner making it even more of a hassle to earn your isk. Are you going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more or less? If you are going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more are you more likely or less likely to engage in even higher risk pvp?
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Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.08.26 16:08:00 -
[282]
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Ingvar Angst Remove the numbers of kills that occur due to gate camps in low/null sec, recalculate then report back.
Wormhole PvP is something you go looking for, not waiting for defenseless ships to happen to come across your gate camp.
The percentage of kills due to gate camps without local will only go up. With local you can often avoid gate camps. With out it they are going to be a real pain.
I would bet a much higher percent of the kills in worm holes are p-v-cb. I dont think these are just as bad as gate camp ganks.
Like I said we can both speculate about the types of kills. But I would like those in the anti- local camp to answer these questions that I posed earlier in this thread and got no responses:
For the sake of argument lets say I agree with many anti-local peoples claims: 1)removing local will increase the risk of engaging in pvp. (Specifically you will have an increased risk of getting blobbed.)
2)removing local will increase the chances of being able to gank a carebear that is in low or null sec.
What effect will this have?
Consider the first point. Do you think increasing the risk (especially the risk of getting blobbed) will make an already risk adverse group more likely to engage in that activity? Eve pvp is already hard enough to find. The problem is the playerbase is risk adverse as it is. Increasing the chances that you will lose your ship to a sensless blobbing will not increase the pvp.
Now consider the second point. Do you think this will drive more people to do missions/industry in low sec and null sec or fewer? Is it better to have more or fewer people in pvp areas of new eden?
Lets say you are going to make your isk in low sec or null sec anyway. You will now have to constantly click on your d scanner making it even more of a hassle to earn your isk. Are you going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more or less? If you are going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more are you more likely or less likely to engage in even higher risk pvp?
You posted this I think on another thread but either way it's still wrong.
One you mention gate camps, gate camps occur whether local is there or not. With local you still have to scout your way into a system, The scout still has to jump in to a potential bubble but hey thats what a scout is for. You remove local he still has to jump into a potential bubble. Having local or removing local makes no difference to gate camps.. If your scout can't use the on board scanner then he's not a scout he's a lemming.
You mention people having to click d-scan repeatedly,, ok again so what all your post seems to come across is that people in 0.0 are lazy and want to rat in peace but that's not what 0.0 is suppossed to be, it's not easy, it's not safe. You want that 1bil drop from a plex work for it!.
I think if local gets removed then bounties in high sec should be lowered to counter the risk that 0.0 now represents.
Again so what if the playerbase is risk averse, you bypass the mega fleet and go deeper into 0.0 for the ratter who thinks he's safe. You still get that now with local in place so what's the difference?
Blobbing on really occurs when people camp pipes and have great intel usually from ...yes you guessed it "local" It's hard enough to get 20 people to go on a 2 hour roam at the best of times.
Your posts just seem to scream out your afraid of change. Get rid of local and give it 6 months if it turns out the way you suggest I will apologise but until you try you will never know.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.26 16:14:00 -
[283]
Edited by: Cearain on 26/08/2011 16:17:28 Signal11th
I typically don't use scouts.
And people will go to mega blobs for safety. But your other solution of having to roam even farther out to find fights is terrible.
Are you going to actually answer any of the questions I put to the anti-local camp? -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.26 16:34:00 -
[284]
Have cloaked ships disappear from local and not be able to use local to see anyone else. Have Cynos on a 30 or 60 second delay after uncloaking.
It's now a better universe.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.28 05:40:00 -
[285]
Originally by: Cearain Edited by: Cearain on 26/08/2011 14:08:53
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Cearain
So we get: 4.17 kills per pilot low sec 4.6 kills per pilot null sec and 1.65 kills per pilot wh
Its clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for pvp.
Do these facts have any effect on your opinion?
No because people dont pvp in WH because of the fact that you cannot have a quick roam then go home.
That is one reason. But the worm holes are rigt there in many systems. Solo roamers and small gangs could easilly jump in and see whats happening and jump out.
But then there is the other problem. No local. Most pvp roamers (especially solo) don't want to have to waste a high slot to fit a probe launcher to their ship in order to simply see if anyone is even there. They don't want to waste time scanning down systems just to find out no one is even there.
Finding pvp is hard enough with local. Very few people on a pvp roam want the extra hassle of not having a local to tell them if anyone is even in the system.
1st- You don't need a probe to see if someone is in system, just use your D-Scan (if the system is big warp to planets and D-Scan). This is even better because you don't want to alarm anyone by popping probes in space. First you D-Scan possible targets and narrow them down without being seen... then you use probes for the minimum time possible to avoid detection.
2nd- As you see by the above, if i want to find PVP i do it quietly, simply because PVP in EVE is rarely consensual, because this is not a consensual PVP game where you have arenas, where everyone PVPs without the risk of losing stuff (ships/modules).
Clearly you or don't know EVE or your urge to find PVP is a lie and what you really want is to avoid it. Because you CAN find PVP without local, but you CAN'T escape PVP without it
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Solj RichPopolous
Amarr Templars of Space Northern Associates.
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Posted - 2011.08.28 10:44:00 -
[286]
Edited by: Solj RichPopolous on 28/08/2011 10:54:52
Idea: Local becomes delayed like wormholes. D-Scan is revamped has greater range (25 or 35 au??) or could stay the same with skills to increase it maybe through some sort of scouting type skillset and auto-scans every 3 seconds. D-Scan also gets the option to scan by either AUs or KMs.
Some kind of IDing system is created to determine friendlies. - Corporations, alliances, and players with good standings appear with either a + (under a standings tab) or the scan signature is highlighted in some color such as blue or both. - Some kind of new rig, module, or skills are created that will allow D-Scan to detect a cloaked ship but can not determine standings or ship type. Maybe an option is given that allows a cloaked ship to broadcast itself to people with good standing using the method above to determine what ships are friendly?
Also cloaked ships will have a shorter D-Scan detection range (3 AU?) making them very viable for scouting. Which would allow the introduction of skills that increase that range maybe (scout skillset?).
This would remove local and make D-Scan very useful for gathering intel but would require work to gain said intel and someone wouldn't be able to jump into a system and automatically know who all is there.
Critiques and comments?
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Wizlawz
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Posted - 2011.08.28 11:52:00 -
[287]
After reading alot of this i wonder then if local is removed and not in effect of delayed chat then will concord cease to exist?
as i am assuming this would affect high sec and if it does do we go back to when all of EVE Space was chaos BEFORE the Sec Stats and Before Cord? ( i am going on what i once heard )
so then will the roid belts be dissolved as im sure no miner is going to want to sit there hitting D-Scan constantly for those who are not cloaked...what i am getting at on this note is will another way of getting matts for manufacture / sell be implemented?
on that point then i can see MAYBE it could affect macros and cease and decist them.(for mining anyway)
OR will this end up being a PURE PVP realm? after all PVP is inevitable at some point.
I mean if Local is absolutley nerfed to non existant then where are the eve mail and pm (CSP charges i think?) going to go? into players wallets?, i hope so. And what will this do for ppl looking to join a corp or looking to find like minded players INVITE ONLY???
I am thinking the ONLY way this would make ANY sense to me is to join up to this realm and get right in the fight all out war. reminds of an FPS in a sense.
hell i wouldn't subscribe, plenty of other realms to play in that style.
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Hired Assasin
Black Aces Against ALL Authorities
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Posted - 2011.08.28 11:57:00 -
[288]
if 0.0 had no local, imagine the massive spike of JF's being ganked at cyno gens or just normal cyno's due to the now massive mass of 0.0 cloakers.
0.0 markets will then die out causing more and more people to either quite the game or move to empire reducing the amount of targets while increasing the time it takes to find targets. if there is no local then pritty much every pvp ship will be cloaky and ninja cyno hotdrops will increase alot due to no one being able to see them coming.
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Solj RichPopolous
Amarr Templars of Space Northern Associates.
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Posted - 2011.08.28 12:12:00 -
[289]
Edited by: Solj RichPopolous on 28/08/2011 12:12:54
Originally by: Hired Assasin if 0.0 had no local, imagine the massive spike of JF's being ganked at cyno gens or just normal cyno's due to the now massive mass of 0.0 cloakers.
0.0 markets will then die out causing more and more people to either quite the game or move to empire reducing the amount of targets while increasing the time it takes to find targets. if there is no local then pritty much every pvp ship will be cloaky and ninja cyno hotdrops will increase alot due to no one being able to see them coming.
An expensive and resource consuming POS module that can be linked to cyno beacon to send a realtime scan of space surrounding the beacon to capital ships within jump range upon request?
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stranac
Amarr Most Wanted INC White Noise.
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Posted - 2011.08.28 12:19:00 -
[290]
Edited by: stranac on 28/08/2011 12:24:01 as expected. crying from careberish alliances.))))
removing local is awesome idea. would give so much to eve like larger space, scouts would finally have role instead of there 20 man gang there according to local number lets make 40man gang and **** them. black ops recons etc would have their proper role. if u werent sucha noob and know to use onboard scanner u would get more kills without local then with it. u would still have your intel channels that reporting gangs just this time u would need to find that gang instead using cheat and looking at local numbers. its a boost too all small alliances out there in empire encouraging them to enter 0.0 and have some fun instead of sitting in empire or low sec. it would be easier for them to move undetected till atleast first kill they made:P whoever is pvper and likes small gang roamin would see this as a great thing
ps. bots wont work anymore.PP think that is the problem that bugging op:))
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Wizlawz
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Posted - 2011.08.28 12:22:00 -
[291]
Originally by: Solj RichPopolous Edited by: Solj RichPopolous on 28/08/2011 12:12:54
Originally by: Hired Assasin if 0.0 had no local, imagine the massive spike of JF's being ganked at cyno gens or just normal cyno's due to the now massive mass of 0.0 cloakers.
0.0 markets will then die out causing more and more people to either quite the game or move to empire reducing the amount of targets while increasing the time it takes to find targets. if there is no local then pritty much every pvp ship will be cloaky and ninja cyno hotdrops will increase alot due to no one being able to see them coming.
An expensive and resource consuming POS module that can be linked to cyno beacon to send a realtime scan of space surrounding the beacon to capital ships within jump range upon request?
SYSTEM SCANNING ARRAY
would be sweet to re-implement, if it ever was
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Darknesss
V0LTA VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.28 13:51:00 -
[292]
I agree with removing local.
0.0 is far too safe at the moment, its easy to see gangs coming and its too easy for people npcing or plexing to dodge enemies while making large ISK.
It would also help in the fight against macro ratters.
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Zagdul
Gallente Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
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Posted - 2011.08.28 14:34:00 -
[293]
Originally by: Solj RichPopolous Edited by: Solj RichPopolous on 28/08/2011 12:14:36
Idea: Local becomes delayed like wormholes.
D-Scan is revamped to operate like a real radar system, has greater range (25 or 35 au??) or could stay the same with skills to increase it maybe through some sort of scouting type skillset and auto-scans every 3 seconds. D-Scan also gets the option to scan by either AUs or KMs. No more having to do quick math and type 1,350,000,000 KM in to scan a 9 AU circle for example. D-Scan no longer uses overview settings and has its own customizable filters and tabs.
Some kind of IDing system is created to determine friendlies. - Corporations, alliances, and players with good standings appear with either a + (under a standings column) or the scan signature is highlighted in some color such as blue or both. Maybe also an option to broadcast player name to friendlies? - Some kind of new rig, module, or skills are created that will allow D-Scan to detect a cloaked ship but can not determine standings or ship type. Maybe an option is given that allows a cloaked ship to broadcast itself to people with good standing using the method above to determine what ships are friendly?
It will be harder for D-Scan to detect a cloaked ship (3 AU?) making them very viable for scouting without being detected by non-cloaked ships since they can scan max range while staying out of detection radius. In example a cloaked ship wants to keep tabs on a station in a system so he cloaks 5 au off of it to avoid being detected by hostiles while being able to do intel gathering without alerting anyone. Possible introduction of skills for ships to increase their cloaked ship D-scan detection range.
- Possible introduction of a new probe which sole purpose is to be able to determine if there are cloaked ships in its range but CAN NOT probe the ships down. Unsure of a range for the probe but should be VERY limited maybe 3-4 AU with there being a skill to launch 1 probe per level with a max out of 5.
A good use for which would be to form a safety net around groups running anomalies, plexes, or mining. Would require operator to be attentive and constantly rescanning. Results would not appear in D-scan and would take the same amount of time to scan as normal probe operation.
This would remove local and make D-Scan very useful for gathering intel but would require work to gain said intel and someone wouldn't be able to jump into a system and automatically know who all is there.
Critiques and comments?
This is probably the most well thought out post in this entire thread.
The only thing I'd suggest is that D-Scan has the ability to scan down standings as well.
Potentially to where it actually uses overview settings (in fleet/alliance/neutral etc.).
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fgft Athonille
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Posted - 2011.08.28 14:56:00 -
[294]
fa are useless, carebear renters
of course they dont want local removed or they would all be dying to good players. ignore this clown
Originally by: Skippermonkey keep trying and you can be an hero just like fgft Athonille
Originally by: Singeaboot Raj Tbh i am beginning to see the win - it's the haircut, makes people take notice.
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Ben Dourion
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Posted - 2011.08.28 16:51:00 -
[295]
CCP should at least , if not removing local in 0.0, delay it . should also do it in low sec but with less latency .
With jump bridge and local as it is actually, 0.0 is only dangerous for the few individuals who dont live in a particular area.
That should not be the case
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Grath Telkin
Amarr Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
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Posted - 2011.08.28 18:03:00 -
[296]
Zagdul this is funny, because in your first few posts you claim to love PVP and actively look for it with your small gangs, and yet anytime I get close to you in space you run like a girl.
I am confused.
You can admit that the inability to see your enemy coming so you can run and hide terrifies you.
Somebody will hug you I'm sure.
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Taedrin
Gallente Kushan Industrial
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Posted - 2011.08.28 18:17:00 -
[297]
Step 1) Open up the starmap (F10) Step 2) Turn on one of the following filters: - Ships active and in space in the past 30 minutes - NPC ships destroyed in the last hour - jumps in the last hour Step 3) ???? Step 4) profit
Removing local makes it much harder to avoid fights than it does to find fights. ----------
Originally by: Dr Fighter "how do you know when youve had a repro accident"
Theres modules missing and morphite in your mineral pile.
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Russell Casey
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Posted - 2011.08.28 18:36:00 -
[298]
Edited by: Russell Casey on 28/08/2011 18:40:26 Edited by: Russell Casey on 28/08/2011 18:37:59
Originally by: Taedrin
Removing local makes it much harder to avoid fights than it does to find fights.
As a whole, nobody fights in any PvP game unless one of the following two things are true:
1) They've got the advantange (or so they think) and are pretty sure they can either win or run away if they start to lose.
2) They get caught by surprise.
Even with local it's possible to make the second happen, but typically only after the first, hence the rampant blobbage that can be best summed up as "crap, I thought he only had 10 BS's to my 20 but it turns out there were another 40 waiting."
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stevie rae
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Posted - 2011.08.28 21:54:00 -
[299]
Edited by: stevie rae on 28/08/2011 21:54:59 As soon as I saw zagdul posting about PvP I knew it would be full of lolz. The number of times I heard FA pilots say "We need more pilots or we can't have a roam(when we already had 10 in fleet) or the number of times I heard "We need x number of logistics or there is just no point in roaming" is astounding. Though honestly I know it is a bit scary that you won't always be able to flee if you don't have a 2:1 advantage over your opponent it will be ok! Local helps you find ganks or fights you can easily win. It also means you can run away if you see your opponent has equal numbers. It kills PvP and helps the "risk free blob" play style many 0.0 alliances use. If local gets switched to delayed mode I think we will see 0.0 populations drop as people who are too scared to really fight flee back to highsec. Not sure if this would end in a good situation for eve sub wise but none of us can really know that unless it happens. I don't see adding effort to scouting as a bad thing. It will make black ops possible and make cloaking actually allow you to hide. While maybe other intel tools will need to be added (radar/improved Dscan/others I havn't thought of) I don't see switching local to delayed "killing PVP" as so many 0.0 dwellers seem to.
Edit: my shoddy typing skills
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Mara Rinn
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Posted - 2011.08.28 23:35:00 -
[300]
Originally by: Corvus Dove Removing local would lower the number of gatecamps as it would no longer be necessary to sit on a gate to be able to hit a target. You would be able to catch them at various points in the system.
Removing local would increase the number of gate camps as it would be necessary to sit on a gate to know who is entering your system.
[ Australian players join channel ANZAC ] |
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Justified Cause
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Posted - 2011.08.29 03:17:00 -
[301]
Originally by: stevie rae Edited by: stevie rae on 28/08/2011 21:54:59 As soon as I saw zagdul posting about PvP I knew it would be full of lolz. The number of times I heard FA pilots say "We need more pilots or we can't have a roam(when we already had 10 in fleet) or the number of times I heard "We need x number of logistics or there is just no point in roaming" is astounding. Though honestly I know it is a bit scary that you won't always be able to flee if you don't have a 2:1 advantage over your opponent it will be ok! Local helps you find ganks or fights you can easily win. It also means you can run away if you see your opponent has equal numbers. It kills PvP and helps the "risk free blob" play style many 0.0 alliances use. If local gets switched to delayed mode I think we will see 0.0 populations drop as people who are too scared to really fight flee back to highsec. Not sure if this would end in a good situation for eve sub wise but none of us can really know that unless it happens. I don't see adding effort to scouting as a bad thing. It will make black ops possible and make cloaking actually allow you to hide. While maybe other intel tools will need to be added (radar/improved Dscan/others I havn't thought of) I don't see switching local to delayed "killing PVP" as so many 0.0 dwellers seem to.
Edit: my shoddy typing skills
You think x amount of logi was bad. In widot, gata*** didn't leave without 7 logi and 4 recons
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Catheryn Martobi
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Posted - 2011.08.29 07:15:00 -
[302]
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Corvus Dove Removing local would lower the number of gatecamps as it would no longer be necessary to sit on a gate to be able to hit a target. You would be able to catch them at various points in the system.
Removing local would increase the number of gate camps as it would be necessary to sit on a gate to know who is entering your system.
Exactly, and no body is going to do that.
Mara is right you know. The point of a gatecamp isn't to keep people out of your space. That's impossible. The point is to catch scoutless players unaware and bend them over a barrel. No local means you have an easier time of catching players unaware of your presence.
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.29 07:51:00 -
[303]
Edited by: Aelius on 29/08/2011 07:51:26
Originally by: Mara Rinn
Originally by: Corvus Dove Removing local would lower the number of gatecamps as it would no longer be necessary to sit on a gate to be able to hit a target. You would be able to catch them at various points in the system.
Removing local would increase the number of gate camps as it would be necessary to sit on a gate to know who is entering your system.
yeah yeah... good luck gate camping every gate and WH on your alliance territory. I tend to repeat myself when i say that local DOES NOT PROMOTE PVP, IT'S A TOOL TO AVOID IT
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.29 12:26:00 -
[304]
Originally by: Aelius
Originally by: Cearain Edited by: Cearain on 26/08/2011 14:08:53
Originally by: baltec1
Originally by: Cearain
So we get: 4.17 kills per pilot low sec 4.6 kills per pilot null sec and 1.65 kills per pilot wh
Its clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for pvp.
Do these facts have any effect on your opinion?
No because people dont pvp in WH because of the fact that you cannot have a quick roam then go home.
That is one reason. But the worm holes are rigt there in many systems. Solo roamers and small gangs could easilly jump in and see whats happening and jump out.
But then there is the other problem. No local. Most pvp roamers (especially solo) don't want to have to waste a high slot to fit a probe launcher to their ship in order to simply see if anyone is even there. They don't want to waste time scanning down systems just to find out no one is even there.
Finding pvp is hard enough with local. Very few people on a pvp roam want the extra hassle of not having a local to tell them if anyone is even in the system.
1st- You don't need a probe to see if someone is in system, just use your D-Scan (if the system is big warp to planets and D-Scan). This is even better because you don't want to alarm anyone by popping probes in space. First you D-Scan possible targets and narrow them down without being seen... then you use probes for the minimum time possible to avoid detection.
2nd- As you see by the above, if i want to find PVP i do it quietly, simply because PVP in EVE is rarely consensual, because this is not a consensual PVP game where you have arenas, where everyone PVPs without the risk of losing stuff (ships/modules).
Clearly you or don't know EVE or your urge to find PVP is a lie and what you really want is to avoid it. Because you CAN find PVP without local, but you CAN'T escape PVP without it
According to battleclinic you were on 118 killmails since 2005! If that is anything close to accurate you should not be telling people how to find fights quickly.
Warping to different celestials to use dscan just find out the system is empty (or worse just to find out you scanned down a friendly) is an even bigger waste of time.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.29 12:28:00 -
[305]
Edited by: Cearain on 29/08/2011 12:28:40
Originally by: Cearain I will try to break this down as much as I can.
For the sake of argument lets say I agree with many anti-local peoples claims: 1)removing local will increase the risk of engaging in pvp. (Specifically you will have an increased risk of getting blobbed.)
2)removing local will increase the chances of being able to gank a carebear that is in low or null sec.
What effect will this have?
Consider the first point. Do you think increasing the risk (especially the risk of getting blobbed) will make an already risk adverse group more likely to engage in that activity? Eve pvp is already hard enough to find. The problem is the playerbase is risk adverse as it is. Increasing the chances that you will lose your ship to a sensless blobbing will not increase the pvp.
Now consider the second point. Do you think this will drive more people to do missions/industry in low sec and null sec or fewer? Is it better to have more or fewer people in pvp areas of new eden?
Lets say you are going to make your isk in low sec or null sec anyway. You will now have to constantly click on your d scanner making it even more of a hassle to earn your isk. Are you going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more or less? If you are going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more are you more likely or less likely to engage in even higher risk pvp?
I see no anti-local people want to address the questions I ask in this post. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Grarr Dexx
Amarr Kumovi The G0dfathers
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Posted - 2011.08.29 13:01:00 -
[306]
0.0 security.
Zero point zero percent security rating. Hell, most systems even have a NEGATIVE security status. You're not supposed to be safe.
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Shadowsword
The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva
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Posted - 2011.08.29 13:25:00 -
[307]
Originally by: Grarr Dexx 0.0 security.
Zero point zero percent security rating. Hell, most systems even have a NEGATIVE security status. You're not supposed to be safe.
The thing is, 0.0 dwellers are supposed to be able to make a living out of it, and they won't if they get popped three times a day. I'm okay with the whole risk vs reward theory, but there is a point where too much risk will prevent you from reaping rewards, however big they might be.
And then there's the whole "making your own home, your own" concept to take into account. One thing a lot of people forget is that 0.0 areas that are considered "safe", are safe only because a lot of people have sweated a lot to make it so. It's not a state of things that have been served to them on a platter. ------------------------------------------
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Thornat
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Posted - 2011.08.29 13:38:00 -
[308]
Originally by: Shadowsword
Originally by: Grarr Dexx 0.0 security.
Zero point zero percent security rating. Hell, most systems even have a NEGATIVE security status. You're not supposed to be safe.
The thing is, 0.0 dwellers are supposed to be able to make a living out of it, and they won't if they get popped three times a day. I'm okay with the whole risk vs reward theory, but there is a point where too much risk will prevent you from reaping rewards, however big they might be.
And then there's the whole "making your own home, your own" concept to take into account. One thing a lot of people forget is that 0.0 areas that are considered "safe", are safe only because a lot of people have sweated a lot to make it so. It's not a state of things that have been served to them on a platter.
Agreed. I find 0.0 Dwellers (Sov Owning Corps) are accussed of being lazy and having it "easy" which is insane to me, and probobly is to anyone else who has ever actually tried to claim some space. Its the hardest, most riskiest and most costly thing you can do in Eve. Any rewards you gain from actually owning 0.0 space and being out their is quickly overshadowed by the insane costs. People don't make ISK in 0.0, but in the same token, they aren't out their fighting for space to earn ISK. They are out their because its fun to be out their. Its exciting, ****s happening. The game is interesting out their. Thats what people who never go out their don't understand.
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.29 16:54:00 -
[309]
Edited by: Aelius on 29/08/2011 16:56:35
Originally by: Cearain
According to battleclinic you were on 118 killmails since 2005! If that is anything close to accurate you should not be telling people how to find fights quickly.
Warping to different celestials to use dscan just find out the system is empty (or worse just to find out you scanned down a friendly) is an even bigger waste of time.
Yes because killmails are everything in EVE.
Yes, with local you can find right away if there are targets in system. The problem comes after when you try to get them to fight if the odds are not in their favor.
OFC you can always enter a system alone with 10 hostiles in local... and try to stay alive... i mean no... ofc you will kill them all because of your uber killmails record... right?! I bet you wont run with the tail between your legs, because you want PVP.
And D-Scan?! Hell no! Thats for "118 kills since 2005" persons... I think your corp name says it all "The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION"
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.29 17:01:00 -
[310]
This happened Saturday. In the static C2 (had a high hole, was using it) and notice near the hole on DScan there's a ship. OK, I'm in my scanner on this char, drop combats and get it to 100%, it's a destroyer salvaging a combat site he ran apparently in a different ship. OK, fine... warp over to go look at him for lulz (warp to 100). Warp there and cloak... he still hasn't noticed me.
Okay... get on my combat alt, fly into the static and warp to 20 off this guy in my drake. He's still toodling along, salvaging like I'm not there. More . Warp to a wreck he's approaching (was over 150K away), target, tackle and start firing... finally he starts trying to get away.
This should never have happened. This was a pilot in from high sec so reliant on local that even with me visible on the overview he didn't realize I was there. This is why local needs to go... it's dragging the intelligence of the community way, way down.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.29 17:21:00 -
[311]
Edited by: Aelius on 29/08/2011 17:21:27
Originally by: Ingvar Angst This happened Saturday. In the static C2 (had a high hole, was using it) and notice near the hole on DScan there's a ship. OK, I'm in my scanner on this char, drop combats and get it to 100%, it's a destroyer salvaging a combat site he ran apparently in a different ship. OK, fine... warp over to go look at him for lulz (warp to 100). Warp there and cloak... he still hasn't noticed me.
Okay... get on my combat alt, fly into the static and warp to 20 off this guy in my drake. He's still toodling along, salvaging like I'm not there. More . Warp to a wreck he's approaching (was over 150K away), target, tackle and start firing... finally he starts trying to get away.
This should never have happened. This was a pilot in from high sec so reliant on local that even with me visible on the overview he didn't realize I was there. This is why local needs to go... it's dragging the intelligence of the community way, way down.
NO! Cearain "wants" to PVP and he needs the local. Please teach him your mojo! How the hell did you managed that?! Have PVP without local?! OMG!!!
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.29 17:43:00 -
[312]
Originally by: Aelius Edited by: Aelius on 29/08/2011 16:56:35
Originally by: Cearain
According to battleclinic you were on 118 killmails since 2005! If that is anything close to accurate you should not be telling people how to find fights quickly.
Warping to different celestials to use dscan just find out the system is empty (or worse just to find out you scanned down a friendly) is an even bigger waste of time.
Yes because killmails are everything in EVE.
I'm not saying they are everything. But they are an indication of how much you pvp or at least how successfull you are at finding fights.
If you barely have over 100 kills after 6 years of this game, I don't think you are the one to talk to about how to find pvp.
Getting your 1 kill per month is not the pace many want to go at. There are allot of people with a much better record of solo and small gang pvp telling you no local will adversely effect small gang and solo pvp. Why don't you listen to any of them?
Why don't you try to think through the questions I posted? -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.29 17:50:00 -
[313]
I'm not sure how much intelligence it takes to spam a d-scan button.
Imagine an iq test.
People set up a game where you sit there and click a button over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and overand over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over.
At the end of this session the people giving the test ask the participant: How would you like to buy this game?
Now do you think the people who buy the game are going to have a higher iq than those who say no thanks?
Originally by: Ingvar Angst This happened Saturday. In the static C2 (had a high hole, was using it) and notice near the hole on DScan there's a ship. OK, I'm in my scanner on this char, drop combats and get it to 100%, it's a destroyer salvaging a combat site he ran apparently in a different ship. OK, fine... warp over to go look at him for lulz (warp to 100). Warp there and cloak... he still hasn't noticed me.
Okay... get on my combat alt, fly into the static and warp to 20 off this guy in my drake. He's still toodling along, salvaging like I'm not there. More . Warp to a wreck he's approaching (was over 150K away), target, tackle and start firing... finally he starts trying to get away.
This should never have happened. This was a pilot in from high sec so reliant on local that even with me visible on the overview he didn't realize I was there. This is why local needs to go... it's dragging the intelligence of the community way, way down.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.29 17:57:00 -
[314]
Apparently, Caerain, it takes more intelligence than people are displaying. What happened Saturday should have been this...
Destroyer pilot <click> sees ship on DScan, and, not being fit for combat, warps to the hole and leaves. The End.
You're mocking user action required for intel. You want it all to be all warmed up and hand delivered in a nice sterile bottle for you to suckle on. The nice thing with DScan is that you learn to click it absent-mindedly and you're mind gets trained for "different" to show up on the scan result. You look at different, you see the different, you react. That's when you're sitting in one place doing some activity. You can also use it as an effective hunting tool to find PvP, especially if you have your covops going. You'll be able to find PvP opportunities that local completely denies you simply by giving away your presence.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.29 18:09:00 -
[315]
Edited by: Cearain on 29/08/2011 18:10:07 Ingvar
I know how to use dscan. It can be useful in combination with local. I am not mocking people who use dscan. I am pointing out that creating the game to revolve around constantly clicking that button would make it a pretty mind numbing game to play. I doubt many intelligent people would care to play it.
Local does not spoon feed you all the intel you need. It does however at least let you know if 1) if there is a huge blob in the system and 2) if you are in a system with someone you *may* want to attack. It does not tell you what ship they are in or where in the system they are. It just tells you there is somone there.
That way you don't have to spend the time warping from belt to belt only to find the system is empty.
Like I said before there are people in eve who are actually looking to pvp against something other than an industrials or a destroyer with its high slots full of salvagers. For those players removing local will all but ruin the game.
Why don't you give the questions I asked earlier a shot? -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.29 18:21:00 -
[316]
Of course it spoon feeds you all the intel. You click on the guy in local, you have his corp, alliance, kill boards, etc. You get a ton of free intel simply by having his name. You can see if he regularly kills in blobs, showing he may be bait. You can see if he's an industrial carebear without a kill to his name.
How can you claim to know anything at all about the game if you don't know this?
You also over-emphasize DScan regarding the game. It wouldn't be the defining part of the game, simply one of the primary intel gathering tools there for you to use or not (at your peril). Blobs show up on it. Single ships show up on it. However, if you want the rest of the free intel, you'd need to get off your duff and go earn it. Simple as that.
Eh... what question are you refering to?
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Welsige
Gallente Ad Vita Noctu Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.29 18:42:00 -
[317]
All I see is pvp griefers wanting to do more grief (cause warping a cloakie on a system and killing a miner isnt pvp in my book), wasnt the infinite logged cloackies 'locking' down systems enough.
I pvp and loose my fair ammount of ships as it is. I really dont want to be clicking every seccond on d-scan while making isk for future pvp. That's insane. I dont want to stop playing because my finger is hurting of insane every seccond clicking.
I dont see this enabling more small gang warfare, cause reports benefit it, i see it only benefiting gankers wanting quick and easy kills.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.29 18:53:00 -
[318]
If clicking DScan is enough to hurt your finger you have more things to worry about than losing a ship in Eve.
It's surprising how many people couldn't cut it in a wormhole. It really is. You're missing a truly great Eve experience.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.29 19:03:00 -
[319]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst Of course it spoon feeds you all the intel. You click on the guy in local, you have his corp, alliance, kill boards, etc. You get a ton of free intel simply by having his name. You can see if he regularly kills in blobs, showing he may be bait. You can see if he's an industrial carebear without a kill to his name.
How can you claim to know anything at all about the game if you don't know this?
You also over-emphasize DScan regarding the game. It wouldn't be the defining part of the game, simply one of the primary intel gathering tools there for you to use or not (at your peril). Blobs show up on it. Single ships show up on it. However, if you want the rest of the free intel, you'd need to get off your duff and go earn it. Simple as that.
Eh... what question are you refering to?
We just play the game differently. I almost never even bother to see what corp the guy is in so long as he is a target. I simply see if the ship he is flying is within my engagment envelope. If it is I try to find him. If its not I move to the next system.
Local does not give you his killboard. Its true, you can, if you are very risk adverse and have lots of time, see the person in local, open up a browser and surf over to the killboard to try to search and study his killboard if you wish. I almost never look them up on the kill boards. Its usually not worth the time and it is a distracting hassle.
Basically I'm willing to take some risks in this game and just have fun.
Just because someone flew in a blob last time they were out doesn't mean they are doing that now. From local I do start to recognize people and if they are always in a blob. So if I get blobbed a few times I learn that way. Doing that of course means you use your rl intelligence and memory and experience. Instead of a button to push and leave the rest to dumb luck.
Also Its not that people canÆt "cut it" in a wormhole. ItÆs just that they like to use their head when they pvp instead of just hoping their blob is bigger than the other guys blob. They also donÆt like to waste time scanning down empty systems.
Why are you ignoring the questions I put to the anti-local crowd?
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Zenith Intaki
Gallente Zenith Intaki Tech
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Posted - 2011.08.29 19:05:00 -
[320]
Edited by: Zenith Intaki on 29/08/2011 19:06:08 Leave local channel the way it is in W-space to all sec spaces.
Remove the instant list for good and in all sec spaces.
Solution is that simple, and being used in W-space and it's purely awesome!
ALSO, REMOVE D-SCAN!
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.29 19:29:00 -
[321]
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Ingvar Angst Of course it spoon feeds you all the intel. You click on the guy in local, you have his corp, alliance, kill boards, etc. You get a ton of free intel simply by having his name. You can see if he regularly kills in blobs, showing he may be bait. You can see if he's an industrial carebear without a kill to his name.
How can you claim to know anything at all about the game if you don't know this?
You also over-emphasize DScan regarding the game. It wouldn't be the defining part of the game, simply one of the primary intel gathering tools there for you to use or not (at your peril). Blobs show up on it. Single ships show up on it. However, if you want the rest of the free intel, you'd need to get off your duff and go earn it. Simple as that.
Eh... what question are you refering to?
We just play the game differently. I almost never even bother to see what corp the guy is in so long as he is a target. I simply see if the ship he is flying is within my engagment envelope. If it is I try to find him. If its not I move to the next system.
Local does not give you his killboard. Its true, you can, if you are very risk adverse and have lots of time, see the person in local, open up a browser and surf over to the killboard to try to search and study his killboard if you wish. I almost never look them up on the kill boards. Its usually not worth the time and it is a distracting hassle.
Basically I'm willing to take some risks in this game and just have fun.
Just because someone flew in a blob last time they were out doesn't mean they are doing that now. From local I do start to recognize people and if they are always in a blob. So if I get blobbed a few times I learn that way. Doing that of course means you use your rl intelligence and memory and experience. Instead of a button to push and leave the rest to dumb luck.
Also Its not that people canÆt "cut it" in a wormhole. ItÆs just that they like to use their head when they pvp instead of just hoping their blob is bigger than the other guys blob. They also donÆt like to waste time scanning down empty systems.
Why are you ignoring the questions I put to the anti-local crowd?
Like I said... spoon-fed intel. You don't want to do anything fo rit... just blindly fly from belt to belt until you find him. (Hint: Dscan can even speed that process up). Um... blobs in wormholes? Really? You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? Dumb luck using DScan? You know it gives you all ships withing 14AU and you can use it to narrow down their location as well, right? You know, so you're not guessing what belt they're in using dumb luck? With local, you run around or run away. Without local, you hunt.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Welsige
Gallente Ad Vita Noctu Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.29 19:43:00 -
[322]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst If clicking DScan is enough to hurt your finger you have more things to worry about than losing a ship in Eve.
It's surprising how many people couldn't cut it in a wormhole. It really is. You're missing a truly great Eve experience.
Man... i use dscan. I dont want to use it every second. There's a diference and by whats being sugested playing eve is bound to be the most dull experience ever for activities that are already boring enough.
No matter what is done, whats being proposed put too much power on the hunter and leave the prey in a very bad position game wise as the cloaking devices do. By game wise i mean not having fun by having to play the click frenzy dscan.
Imo this pretty much will kill industry/mining in null, cause i doubt players will want to click click click endless and in the end it will payout to live in high sec.
You can say "oh carebears crying'. Well, carebears can say in return that griefers are crying too. Dont never forget you need the carebears, cause thay fuel the markets.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.29 19:51:00 -
[323]
Just FYI, I am, for the most part, a carebear. This is my main, and he's industrial. The combat alt is developing nicely though.
I still think the simplest solution of all and offers the best of all worlds...
1. When a ship cloaks, the disappear from local and, in exchange, cannot see local. You disappear but cannot see who's in local either. This allows a cloaked ship to truly be cloaked and also requires it to actively seek out intel if it wants to get any.
2. When you decloak there's a 30 to 60 second delay in lighting a cyno. This prevents the invisible person from dropping a fleet on top of someone before they have a chance to see you and respond.
Just these two changes could do wonders for null, imo, and best of all... nothing to break current wormhole mechanics.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Welsige
Gallente Ad Vita Noctu Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.29 20:02:00 -
[324]
The only instance i see they removing local working is IF they provide better tools to tackle the space surounding the ship.
Dscan dosent cut it. Clicking dosent cut it.
There must be a tool that pings the space and report usefull and organized data. Otherwise unless you are pvp'ing I would see no other use of null as far as indy goes, they would be too exposed.
I am curious about wormholes, but really dont care about them.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.29 21:15:00 -
[325]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst Like I said... spoon-fed intel. You don't want to do anything fo rit....
I suppose you think I should have to push a button. Is that the price I should pay? That seems to be the big concern. Players in eve are not required to do enough button mashing.
Originally by: Ingvar Angst Um... blobs in wormholes? Really? You really have no idea what you're talking about, do you? .
The amount of force is relative. If you have 5 BCs against an assault frigate the AF was blobbed.
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Dumb luck using DScan? You know it gives you all ships withing 14AU and you can use it to narrow down their location as well, right? You know, so you're not guessing what belt they're in using dumb luck? With local, you run around or run away. Without local, you hunt.
You should learn the game mechanics. Dscan does not show all ships within 14 au. It doesn't give you cloaked ships or ships that are cloaked due to jumping in from a gate.
Why must you pretend to tell everyone about how mechanics will boost or hurt pvp? I don't go in threads about industry and pretend to tell everyone what changes should be made there.
Also now I guess you can't answer the questions I posted for the anti-local group. I guess you want to pretend they aren't there. But it just makes you look bad. If you think about the questions I ask you will be able to tell no local will reduce the amount of pvp and increase the amount of blobbing in eve.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Just Lilly
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Posted - 2011.08.29 21:43:00 -
[326]
No local, can be kind of creepy, but I like it |
Ephemeron
Caldari Provisions
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Posted - 2011.08.29 21:59:00 -
[327]
It's safe to say that any real nerf to local will come with scanner improvements.
I'm certain that even the least competent game designers at CCP will not force people to press the Scan button every second.
Local needs to go, scanner needs to be improved, and range limits imposed.
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Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.08.30 08:02:00 -
[328]
Edited by: Signal11th on 30/08/2011 08:04:58
Originally by: Cearain Edited by: Cearain on 29/08/2011 12:28:40
Originally by: Cearain I will try to break this down as much as I can.
For the sake of argument lets say I agree with many anti-local peoples claims: 1)removing local will increase the risk of engaging in pvp. (Specifically you will have an increased risk of getting blobbed.)
2)removing local will increase the chances of being able to gank a carebear that is in low or null sec.
What effect will this have?
Consider the first point. Do you think increasing the risk (especially the risk of getting blobbed) will make an already risk adverse group more likely to engage in that activity? Eve pvp is already hard enough to find. The problem is the playerbase is risk adverse as it is. Increasing the chances that you will lose your ship to a sensless blobbing will not increase the pvp.
Now consider the second point. Do you think this will drive more people to do missions/industry in low sec and null sec or fewer? Is it better to have more or fewer people in pvp areas of new eden?
Lets say you are going to make your isk in low sec or null sec anyway. You will now have to constantly click on your d scanner making it even more of a hassle to earn your isk. Are you going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more or less? If you are going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more are you more likely or less likely to engage in even higher risk pvp?
I see no anti-local people want to address the questions I ask in this post.
Already answered some of those questions in a previous post.
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Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.08.30 08:04:00 -
[329]
Edited by: Signal11th on 30/08/2011 08:04:32 Yowzer double postaroony!
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.30 09:04:00 -
[330]
Originally by: Cearain
Also now I guess you can't answer the questions I posted for the anti-local group. I guess you want to pretend they aren't there. But it just makes you look bad. If you think about the questions I ask you will be able to tell no local will reduce the amount of pvp and increase the amount of blobbing in eve.
Simple answer. How many 0.0 alliances have the manpower to blob every system they own, expecting to be hit by a small gang that may or may not come? Nowadays with local asa they spot your small gang in local it's just a matter of time before they blob you. They intel channel will read "hostile gang spotted in local at X system, ASSEMBLE THE BLOB"
I presume you are an intelligent person Cearain. Would you engage someone if local says you are outnumbered 3 to 1, or would you run? Without local you never know who exactly is in system, thus it all comes down to tactics, and as you say not many people are proficient with D-Scan or can be hassle to click it. You can turn that to your advantage to set up ambushes to a superior force. Divide and conquer. Unpredictable PVP outcome is much more fun.
I will give you an example mate. While running a sleeper site on a C5 using spider Domis and DPS BS, our corp got probed down by some 0.0 folk without we noticing. Not soon after we got jumped by a fleet 5 times ours. We reacted returned fire, hold for a while and as we were better fitted to coop with the sleeper damage and with the help of them (sleepers changed targets) we managed to kill 3/4 of their fleet before all our ships went up in flames. Although we lost all our ships it was good fight, with a better outcome than we could ever expected. Now if there was local in WH this would never had happen because we would warp out when we saw such a large fleet coming to gank us.
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
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chekerss
Minmatar Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
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Posted - 2011.08.30 09:32:00 -
[331]
Get rid of local and replace it with a different way of gathering in-system intel. My suggestion for this would be to have some sort of mass indicator on the overview. Basically a graph showing how much stuff is in space. Not exacly what is in space but how much of it. Basically a frigate would have a very low impact on that graph and a battleship would be bigger. You can't tell if they are blue, red, neut, but you are able to tell when a large blob lands in system.
I also like the idea of when jumping in to a system making this scanner require a bit of time to calibrate to the mass of the planets and such in system. This gives the defenders or ratters and such in system time to form a defense or get safe.
You still have the chance and ability to find fights bye knowing how much is in there but finding out what you are fighting takes more creativity and team work.
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Thornat
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Posted - 2011.08.30 09:41:00 -
[332]
Edited by: Thornat on 30/08/2011 09:42:26 There are some great arguments here both for and against local, but for me most of the issue with local is simply that it just doesn't fit the gameplay.
Local is free information that has nothing to do with my character, his skills, what ship I'm flying, what modules I have or what kind of operation I'm running or tactics I'm using. There is no defense against it, and it has nothing to do with the game mechanic in any way. Its free intel that reveals information players shouldn't have. Its that simple for me.
It just doesn't fit. What ever effects not having local would have, thats what it should be. Wormhole space feels a whole lot better, it gives the game an atmosphere that not only gives the game presence and makes it feel bigger but it creates more strategic and tactical options for players which they can control.
To me any gameplay element that has an impact on gameplay but cannot be controlled through gameplay is bad and intel, such a vital thing in Eve is given away freely and outside of the scope of the mechanic. Its never felt right to me.
The faster its tossed out the better.
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Cheesy Feet
Minmatar The Hells Bells Club
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Posted - 2011.08.30 11:59:00 -
[333]
Edited by: Cheesy Feet on 30/08/2011 11:59:48 ^^^ What she said 10/10
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.30 12:06:00 -
[334]
there are clearly 2 schools- those feeling threatened by this idea, and those ready to kill all the juicy carebears.
As a combat pilot, I'm sure many of you can agree.. for 25 or more systems Scout jumps in Scout works dscan if the locals are complete noobs then someone gets caught in sanctum/haven/hub etc else pos and/ or station docked, instantly
Noting is easier than than getting safe as soon as someone hits local.. Guys suggesting it will take pvp away have never roamed null sec, clearly. Remove local and watch the kills come in by the thousands. And it really is completely counter immersive. If you think you need local to pvp you must be one of those types who won't fight unless your side has 20 times as many, and you rely on someone else to tell you exactly how many there are. Talk about risk vs reward, pvp is not a scripted mission. Sometimes you go in not knowing everything.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.30 12:25:00 -
[335]
Originally by: Cearain
I suppose you think I should have to push a button. Is that the price I should pay? That seems to be the big concern. Players in eve are not required to do enough button mashing.
For intel? Yes, it should be actively acquired, not a free gift that allows you far too much knowledge for little to no effort.
Originally by: Cearain You should learn the game mechanics. Dscan does not show all ships within 14 au. It doesn't give you cloaked ships or ships that are cloaked due to jumping in from a gate.
Why must you pretend to tell everyone about how mechanics will boost or hurt pvp? I don't go in threads about industry and pretend to tell everyone what changes should be made there.
Also now I guess you can't answer the questions I posted for the anti-local group. I guess you want to pretend they aren't there. But it just makes you look bad. If you think about the questions I ask you will be able to tell no local will reduce the amount of pvp and increase the amount of blobbing in eve.
Of course it doesn't give you cloaked ships. They're cloaked. That's what cloaking does. Why should it give you cloaked ships? That's insane.
As for your questions, I'm pretty sure I answered them at least once and was ignored, but for argument's sake if you'd repeat them I'll have yet another crack at it.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.30 12:32:00 -
[336]
Edited by: Spumantii on 30/08/2011 12:34:14
With the way things are of late it's already hard to find an actual fight because of local.. Unless you enjoy blob warfare, which boils down to nothing more than a single brain controlling 1000 f1 mashing thumb-sucker monkeys with 0 actual pilot skill, all fed free intel by a couple of cloaked ships.
What changes would no local bring? Some people will have to lean to be aware of their surroundings and stop being ankle biting coat-tail riders, and fcs will need more scouts, fights might actually happen more often as groups move around and or move into each other, rather than the current state, which is wait wait wait ok we have 1000 drakes to their 100 let's go- OR oh they have 1000 drakes we sit here and do nothing. Null combat is supposed to involve risk, and the current state does nothing but cater to those with the lowest level of awareness and pilot skill.
Carthage must be destroyed.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.30 13:02:00 -
[337]
Edited by: Cearain on 30/08/2011 13:02:47
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain
I suppose you think I should have to push a button. Is that the price I should pay? That seems to be the big concern. Players in eve are not required to do enough button mashing.
For intel? Yes, it should be actively acquired, not a free gift that allows you far too much knowledge for little to no effort.
Ok we are in a sci fi universe where we can travel faster than light but we have to constantly push a button for intel about what is in our system. Concord who runs the gates knows who is in the system and even if they have agressed before the timer is up but its impossible that they could share that info with other pilots??
No instead we have these ships with a big red button that you have to keep pushing in order to get any information about what is around you in space - constantly pushing that big red button. No one was ever even bright enough to put a rock on that big red button so that it would constantly stream information. Nope you have to keep pushing the button for intel. Does this make any sense to you?
Originally by: Cearain You should learn the game mechanics. Dscan does not show all ships within 14 au. It doesn't give you cloaked ships or ships that are cloaked due to jumping in from a gate.
Why must you pretend to tell everyone about how mechanics will boost or hurt pvp? I don't go in threads about industry and pretend to tell everyone what changes should be made there.
Also now I guess you can't answer the questions I posted for the anti-local group. I guess you want to pretend they aren't there. But it just makes you look bad. If you think about the questions I ask you will be able to tell no local will reduce the amount of pvp and increase the amount of blobbing in eve.
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Of course it doesn't give you cloaked ships. They're cloaked. That's what cloaking does. Why should it give you cloaked ships? That's insane.
Then why did you say we see all ships within 14 au when we hit the dscan? We don't.
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
As for your questions, I'm pretty sure I answered them at least once and was ignored, but for argument's sake if you'd repeat them I'll have yet another crack at it.
here they are again.
Originally by: Cearain I will try to break this down as much as I can.
For the sake of argument lets say I agree with many anti-local peoples claims: 1)removing local will increase the risk of engaging in pvp. (Specifically you will have an increased risk of getting blobbed.)
2)removing local will increase the chances of being able to gank a carebear that is in low or null sec.
What effect will this have?
Consider the first point. Do you think increasing the risk (especially the risk of getting blobbed) will make an already risk adverse group more likely to engage in that activity? Eve pvp is already hard enough to find. The problem is the playerbase is risk adverse as it is. Increasing the chances that you will lose your ship to a sensless blobbing will not increase the pvp.
Now consider the second point. Do you think this will drive more people to do missions/industry in low sec and null sec or fewer? Is it better to have more or fewer people in pvp areas of new eden?
Lets say you are going to make your isk in low sec or null sec anyway. You will now have to constantly click on your d scanner making it even more of a hassle to earn your isk. Are you going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more or less? If you are going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more are you more likely or less likely to engage in even higher risk pvp?
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.30 13:15:00 -
[338]
Originally by: Cearain Ok we are in a sci fi universe where we can travel faster than light but we have to constantly push a button for intel about what is in our system. Concord who runs the gates knows who is in the system and even if they have agressed before the timer is up but its impossible that they could share that info with other pilots??
No instead we have these ships with a big red button that you have to keep pushing in order to get any information about what is around you in space - constantly pushing that big red button. No one was ever even bright enough to put a rock on that big red button so that it would constantly stream information. Nope you have to keep pushing the button for intel. Does this make any sense to you?
You're in a spaceship with limited resources. Yes, you have to activate systems that consume power. You don't constantly burn resources when all you have is what's on your ship.
Originally by: Cearain
Then why did you say we see all ships within 14 au when we hit the dscan? We don't.
Is there anyone that doesn't already realize that cloaked ships don't show up on dscan? I assume basic intelligence as a rule.
Originally by: Cearain
For the sake of argument lets say I agree with many anti-local peoples claims: 1)removing local will increase the risk of engaging in pvp. (Specifically you will have an increased risk of getting blobbed.)
2)removing local will increase the chances of being able to gank a carebear that is in low or null sec.
What effect will this have?
Consider the first point. Do you think increasing the risk (especially the risk of getting blobbed) will make an already risk adverse group more likely to engage in that activity? Eve pvp is already hard enough to find. The problem is the playerbase is risk adverse as it is. Increasing the chances that you will lose your ship to a sensless blobbing will not increase the pvp.
Now consider the second point. Do you think this will drive more people to do missions/industry in low sec and null sec or fewer? Is it better to have more or fewer people in pvp areas of new eden?
Lets say you are going to make your isk in low sec or null sec anyway. You will now have to constantly click on your d scanner making it even more of a hassle to earn your isk. Are you going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more or less? If you are going to value and protect that harder to earn isk more are you more likely or less likely to engage in even higher risk pvp?
There's the problem. Your questions are based on assumptions you are presuming to be true. Those that disagree can't answer your questions because they're based on (what are seen as) falsehoods.
To be honest, I think things could be fixed nicely without removing local. Simply remove cloaked ships from local. When you cloak, your cloak also separates you from the communications grid. Additional side effect, the cloaked ship cannot see local either... they have to actively gather intel. No seeing who enters or leaves the system (unless you're cloaked at a gate). No free lunch... cloaking hides you much more effectively, with give and take. Finally, put a delay on the ability to activate a cyno when decloaking of 30 to 60 seconds. This prevents the "surprise" hot drop on an unsuspecting ship, allowing them time to react.
Cloaking should make you seen only when you want to be seen, but also hinder your ability to see.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.30 13:45:00 -
[339]
Edited by: Spumantii on 30/08/2011 13:45:55 Is it really this hard for you to imagine a *gasp* new dscan setting with auto scan ping every 5-10 seconds? Why the insistence on the status quo? We're talking about changes that would come not *just* to the local chat window, no? Like sov strategic upgrades that allow immediate local with level 5? Do you deny local the way it is makes it FAR too easy in an area of space supposed to be equated to frontier life? Even in the wild west there were scouts. Farmers still had to protect themselves. They didn't have bandit sensing radar systems with a 200 AU radius. Why the adamant refusal of the logic behind what is so obvious?? Null sec alliances that do all the carebearing ALSO do all the blobbing. Fair is fair. If their carebears can't handle a few simple steps to ensure their safety then they should get no sympathy when their blob size shrinks and all the risk averse people bail out to hi sec. You won't be missed, the more capable will replace you.
Carthage must be incinerated.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.30 13:49:00 -
[340]
Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 30/08/2011 13:49:32
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 30/08/2011 13:45:55 Is it really this hard for you to imagine a *gasp* new dscan setting with auto scan ping every 5-10 seconds? Why the insistence on the status quo? We're talking about changes that would come not *just* to the local chat window, no? Like sov strategic upgrades that allow immediate local with level 5? Do you deny local the way it is makes it FAR too easy in an area of space supposed to be equated to frontier life? Even in the wild west there were scouts. Farmers still had to protect themselves. They didn't have bandit sensing radar systems with a 200 AU radius. Why the adamant refusal of the logic behind what is so obvious?? Null sec alliances that do all the carebearing ALSO do all the blobbing. Fair is fair. If their carebears can't handle a few simple steps to ensure their safety then they should get no sympathy when their blob size shrinks and all the risk averse people bail out to hi sec. You won't be missed, the more capable will replace you.
This is the only part I dislike... it nerfs the frontier aspect of wormholes. Free intel is for the weak. Possibly it could be limited to certain ships only, such as dedicated scanners, and have the drawback of making you exposed to everyone else in the system... but don't be nerfing my hole, bro.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.30 13:53:00 -
[341]
Edited by: Spumantii on 30/08/2011 13:57:22
I am also a wh man through and through.. Nothing against your hole brosef. Limit the ping idea to covert ops ships so the ratters' alts can do it, maybe bring back the system scanner pos module, there are many ways to make that work, my point is it is obvious that constantly hitting the button would be annoying- (we already do this in wspace and survival is not that difficult)
(directed at the pro-local trogs) -But why assume that is never going to change, if local gets removed? Even with my limited faith in ccp I do believe they would know better than to leave dscan unimproved if they limited immediate local to sov upgrades in null. Maybe add a fittable module that allows scan features like an auto ping, or extended range scan for example, so a ratter can choose to fit it, or diaf for not paying attention..
Raze Carthage.
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Thornat
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Posted - 2011.08.30 14:04:00 -
[342]
I completetly agree that when eliminating local, things will have to be added to ensure the intel local provided is still available, but it should be part of the game mechanic.. Aka controlled by player decesion.
I see it something like this.
You have the directional scanner. This is a detailed look that can be used activily.
You have scanner probes which allow you to scan out specific ships so that you can warp to them (more detailed scans).
What we need is a module that can be mounted that gives us very general, but very quick information that can be activated and left active feeding you information. A spaciial sonar of sorts. All you get is "red dots" of ships within a certain distance that should be determined by the quality of the module and the skills related to that module usage. Aka is there someone in the system approaching me or not. This way you still have the protection that local offered without all the extra information about the character, corps etc... all you know is someone is coming and now you can make decesions. Scan them out, warp away .. etc..
See I'm not really against the idea of getting information I just think it should be appropriatly broken down into player decesions. I don't have any issue with someone knowing I just entered the system, but it shouldn't be spoon fed to them with all kinds of info, realistically they shouldn't have.
The related modules should have drawbacks as well.. for example actively using it should make you appear larger on the rader and their should be some sort of "anti" equipment as well that works similiar to electronic warfare, say a module that has a chance to block sonars. Perhaps stealth ships have natural defense.
I mean these are just ideas, but what Im saying is.. keep it in the players hands. Give us gameplay not ... a local chat that reveals all with no drawback. Local takes away from the games emersion and it takes away from the gameplay.
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Shadowsword
The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva
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Posted - 2011.08.30 14:06:00 -
[343]
Originally by: Spumantii
Noting is easier than than getting safe as soon as someone hits local.. Guys suggesting it will take pvp away have never roamed null sec, clearly. Remove local and watch the kills come in by the thousands.
This reasonning is shortsighted in the extreme. Yes, you will have kills in the thousands. For the whole first week. And then what? Farmers will compare what they gained with what they lost, and the time involved in doing the logistics to replace their ship several times (it's not only isks).
Then they will look at high-sec, where you can use pimped pirate BS, +5 implants and hardwirings that would be foolish to use in null-sec, and they are going to look at the 50+M/hour some dedicaced mission-runners are pulling. Are you foolish enough to think they'll stay in their null-sec belts for you to pop them again and again?
In addition, you seem to view pvp only as catching farmers. But that's ganking, no real pvp. Real pvp is when you have two hostiles gangs seeking each other, and in that case, local help their scouts, (or friendly informers on intel channels) to know where the other gang is, and where it is headed.
I'm in favor for removing local ONLY if some powerfull, automated mean of early warning replace it. It could give info on the incoming ship type, vector and distance instead of pilot information, for example. Like the D-scan, but automated and with a bit more range. ------------------------------------------
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.30 14:08:00 -
[344]
I agree to an extent. I fully agree it should be left in player hands
but.. None of the pro-local guys seemed to remember..
All you need to do is keep eyes on your in-gates. If you can't be bothered, it's your loss. Any cloaky can do it. Any scout for a pvp gang can do it.
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Miss Rabblt
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Posted - 2011.08.30 14:10:00 -
[345]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
To be honest, I think things could be fixed nicely without removing local. Simply remove cloaked ships from local. When you cloak, your cloak also separates you from the communications grid. Additional side effect, the cloaked ship cannot see local either... they have to actively gather intel. No seeing who enters or leaves the system (unless you're cloaked at a gate). No free lunch... cloaking hides you much more effectively, with give and take.
first good idea about local
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.30 14:11:00 -
[346]
Edited by: Spumantii on 30/08/2011 14:15:57
Originally by: Shadowsword Are you foolish enough to think they'll stay in their null-sec belts for you to pop them again and again?
In addition, you seem to view pvp only as catching farmers. But that's ganking, no real pvp. Real pvp is when you have two hostiles gangs seeking each other, and in that case, local help their scouts, (or friendly informers on intel channels) to know where the other gang is, and where it is headed.
Exactly as I just said. If they can't be bothered to watch the in gates they deserve all the ganks they get. As for 'real pvp' all you need is an extra scout or two, big deal. Ships still enter system and have an uncloak before they can get in and cloak, IF they are recon or bomber etc. It may force a killmail ***** out of his dps ship to ensure your gang survival, boo hoo, it's worth it.
"I'm in favor for removing local ONLY if some powerfull, automated mean of early warning replace it. It could give info on the incoming ship type, vector and distance instead of pilot information, for example. Like the D-scan, but automated and with a bit more range."
Basically you are saying you're ONLY ok with removing local if something just as EASY replaces it. What exactly is the use of this? A guy above said it should be fully based on player decision, not a mandatory mechanic available to everyone regardless of ship or fitting, which is right on. Automated safety is biased in favor of the lazy and incompetent.
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Shadowsword
The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva
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Posted - 2011.08.30 14:33:00 -
[347]
Edited by: Shadowsword on 30/08/2011 14:33:38
Originally by: Spumantii Exactly as I just said. If they can't be bothered to watch the in gates they deserve all the ganks they get.
Your reasoning is still flawed, because you seem to view farmers as npcs who have no alternative but to farm.
Why does a farmer farm? To gain isks. Putting a scout on each entry gate means shared isks. (And extremely boring gameplay for the scouts) Shared isks means that farming become far less profitable than other ways to gain isks. Will the farmer keep farming? of course not, it's not worth it.
Quote:
Basically you are saying you're ONLY ok with removing local if something just as EASY replaces it. What exactly is the use of this? A guy above said it should be fully based on player decision, which is right on. Automated safety is biased in favor of the lazy and incompetent.
Not necessarily as easy. A system like that would open the way for a whole new gameplay dimension, since you could create modules to reduce your detection signature or increase your radar range. Or even force the basic scanner user to compromise between range and reliability. But replacing local with nothing would reduce 0.0 life to gate camps and moon wars. Hardly interesting. ------------------------------------------
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Ya Huei
Imperial Collective
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Posted - 2011.08.30 14:37:00 -
[348]
nullsec should get more non-solo pve content with higher rewards paired with the removal of local so that the net income per pilot (scouts and actual mission runners) is on par, or higher than what it currently is.
Encouragement of teamplay is never a bad thing.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.30 14:38:00 -
[349]
Edited by: Spumantii on 30/08/2011 14:45:03 Edited by: Spumantii on 30/08/2011 14:39:13 "Putting a scout on each entry gate means shared isks. (And extremely boring gameplay for the scouts)"
nothing about having a scout means shared isk. Use your alt. Assign a new player to the job. Again, it's supposed to be a risk living in null sec. You have the choice to be aware and have scouts watching gates, or not be aware and get ganked.
I think having scan upgrades for certain ships is good but it still requires someone to cover that job, which imo is the way it should be. No global window allowing instant safety. You have all the upgrades, you have 10 ratters in system, assign a scout or get ganked. There's no isk sharing like in missions in null sec so I'm not sure what you mean by that anyway, unless you have an isk pooling system- which benefits the lazy....
"replacing local with nothing would reduce 0.0 life to gate camps and moon wars." Describe how this is any different from what we have now, and then describe exactly how removing local would encourage that behaviour, again, the behaviours of the least creative most lazy types. Safety comes at a cost of effort it is that simple. PvP awareness comes at the cost of having more scouts, no big loss if you have a boatload of drakes anyway. You have the sov, you have the ratting systems, you have the blobs. Get some scouts. You can't have it all for nothing.
Risk vs reward. Carthage must burn.
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GankYouAlot AndYouBegFor
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Posted - 2011.08.30 20:03:00 -
[350]
Originally by: Azhpol
Originally by: baltec1
Removing local would make finding goodfights harder, and ganks easier(for a month or 2 til everyone left null).
I'm lazy and I'll quote you're comment you're idea.
it is very good that CCP is trying more people to go to null sec, where they have to suck c**ck to big alliances to live there and be renters of my big alliance, as the previous dominion patch that was supposed to give smaller alliances a chance to hold a piece of sovereignty failed so completely and had a worst effect.
now people don't need overview, so they don't see my gang sneaking in they're systems so we can log on, kill some carebears, have our pew-pew and go to bead after pawning some dumb noob, like what it matters if they spent they're time mining, building and moving stuff? I really like to show up and pawn the living c**p out of them because they are carebears, low life's that build stuff and deserve to die, even if they build the ships and guns that I'm using now to shoot them with. that is funny as hell
it is time for ccp to remove the Local overview, because i am tiered of actually work the locals, until they trust me not to hotdrop them, and them boom ! there goes a sneaky hotdrop in they're carebear ships! that is tiring for me, and i want to pawn them for yesterday !
Removing the local overview should fall right along side with other brilliant ideas that was shoved in to ccp mind, with one purpose and had a different result, like the super caps bomber drones. that was indeed a great idea. i just hop in my spercap with my supercap budys and make a big bloob and pawn any other fleet, and flip stations and systems in five minutes and then go to bead and leave others grinding for hours ! thank you ccp for that, now please, make a way others don't run from my supercaps hotdrops and the game will be much better for me, because i am tiered of waiting hours and the carebears keep running from my cyno hotdropers. oh ... yes, remove local, so they don't see my cyno alt coming.
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Narisa Bithon
Caldari The Motley Crew Reborn
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Posted - 2011.08.30 20:07:00 -
[351]
removing local will only make it easier for bot operators. as they already dont use local as a way to detect if a player is in system they use system server -> client updates to detect players. all it would do is make it harder for players to find and report them.
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Kity Kity
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Posted - 2011.08.30 20:42:00 -
[352]
Removing Local ...
How about .... no !?
you save you're self extra work, doing something that will not be appreciated by the majority, would introduce new problems, help boters and only some lasy bums getting easy kills because they don't want to work smart to get they're kills, and would drive away people that actually like to use they're mind to achieve goals, in a fair fight.
besides, ccp would save a lot of "hate posts" and "why don't you go do something useful like fixing lag" by leaving as it is.
local view in null sec is part of the game accepted mechanics for a long time, and changing it to something not up to pair, would only demean the game experience and cause a lot of riot anger.
certainly those ideas about removing the local overview can only come from the pvp'rs that wine about how people docked up instead of being killed by the roaming gang. well, who would want to go fight an organised pvp gang, when people on you're side are not organised and would only provide easy kills to the other side ? who would want to be someone else's punching bag ? if people demand a Good fight, it certainly can't be that.
well, some people say that carebear tears are sweet ... but i think pirate tears are the sweeter
in this case, keeping the good old rule "K.I.S.S." (Keep It Simple Stupid) might be the most wise thing to do.
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GankYouAlot AndYouBegFor
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Posted - 2011.08.30 20:55:00 -
[353]
removing the "Local" would make the game more fun.
how about if ccp removes Local in null sec and introduce a special scanner with "amunition" bought in the Aurum shop and that would allow you to see who's in Local ?
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.30 22:28:00 -
[354]
Edited by: Spumantii on 30/08/2011 22:36:52
Originally by: Kity Kity Removing Local ...
How about .... no !?
you save you're self extra work, doing something that will not be appreciated by the majority, would introduce new problems, help boters and only some lasy bums getting easy kills because they don't want to work smart to get they're kills, and would drive away people that actually like to use they're mind to achieve goals, in a fair fight.
besides, ccp would save a lot of "hate posts" and "why don't you go do something useful like fixing lag" by leaving as it is.
local view in null sec is part of the game accepted mechanics for a long time, and changing it to something not up to pair, would only demean the game experience and cause a lot of riot anger.
certainly those ideas about removing the local overview can only come from the pvp'rs that wine about how people docked up instead of being killed by the roaming gang. well, who would want to go fight an organised pvp gang, when people on you're side are not organised and would only provide easy kills to the other side ? who would want to be someone else's punching bag ? if people demand a Good fight, it certainly can't be that.
well, some people say that carebear tears are sweet ... but i think pirate tears are the sweeter
in this case, keeping the good old rule "K.I.S.S." (Keep It Simple Stupid) might be the most wise thing to do.
how about.. you get organized instead of crying about it? It sounds like 'working smart' is something you types are incapable of, and apparently you should gtfo of null sec. Beautiful use of the English language. I bet you're one of those guys docked up in one of those stations and this is the only thing you can say about it because you are unwilling to get organized
get off your carebear butt and work for your safety, earn your keep or gtfo of null. Amazing. You have the rats, the plexes, the blobs, the stations, all that jazz but it's still not good enough for you to defend yourself? Guess what? There is risk living in risky space..
Carthage is full of risk averse noobs- nuke them.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.30 22:37:00 -
[355]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst There's the problem. Your questions are based on assumptions you are presuming to be true. Those that disagree can't answer your questions because they're based on (what are seen as) falsehoods.
I numbered the two assumptions. Which one do you disagree with?
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.30 22:53:00 -
[356]
Edited by: Spumantii on 30/08/2011 22:55:20 What part of combat in null sec is using your wits, given that most of the alliances ONLY fight when they have massive numerical advantage?
Only those who avoid fighting fail to see that small scale pvp takes far more skill than your blob warfare. In case you missed it, there is no 'fighting fair' in null. What planet are you on?
Carthage is null sec and shall be purged
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Sean Digsel
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Posted - 2011.08.30 22:59:00 -
[357]
Edited by: Sean Digsel on 30/08/2011 23:04:09 Edited by: Sean Digsel on 30/08/2011 23:02:04
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 30/08/2011 12:34:14
With the way things are of late it's already hard to find an actual fight because of local.. Unless you enjoy blob warfare, which boils down to nothing more than a single brain controlling 1000 f1 mashing thumb-sucker monkeys with 0 actual pilot skill, all fed free intel by a couple of cloaked ships.
What changes would no local bring? Some people will have to lean to be aware of their surroundings and stop being ankle biting coat-tail riders, and fcs will need more scouts, fights might actually happen more often as groups move around and or move into each other, rather than the current state, which is wait wait wait ok we have 1000 drakes to their 100 let's go- OR oh they have 1000 drakes we sit here and do nothing. Null combat is supposed to involve risk, and the current state does nothing but cater to those with the lowest level of awareness and pilot skill.
Carthage must be destroyed.
+1. If null is supposed to be where the real money is made, it should also come with added danger. Scouts would have to do MORE work to find targets (right now, "system empty - jump jump" or +3 in local, checking belts etc). The defenders would have the advantage if they had eyes on gate, or they could dscan like a champ and align\warp when they get a hit. "But what about our big slow shiny battleships?" well, if you have shinies out, you should pick up a scout. If you want mobility, use smaller ships.
removing local has nothing to do with getting 'free \ easy \ lazy' kills. It'd reward the people who were more organized and penalize people who aren't very aware - on both sides.
Not to mention you could do things like bait pirates with a nice big killmail on the belts, while you have a hidden fleet ready to pounce on them.
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.31 10:53:00 -
[358]
Edited by: Aelius on 31/08/2011 11:03:36
Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 30/08/2011 14:33:38
Originally by: Spumantii Exactly as I just said. If they can't be bothered to watch the in gates they deserve all the ganks they get.
Your reasoning is still flawed, because you seem to view farmers as npcs who have no alternative but to farm.
Why does a farmer farm? To gain isks. Putting a scout on each entry gate means shared isks. (And extremely boring gameplay for the scouts) Shared isks means that farming become far less profitable than other ways to gain isks. Will the farmer keep farming? of course not, it's not worth it.
Quote:
Basically you are saying you're ONLY ok with removing local if something just as EASY replaces it. What exactly is the use of this? A guy above said it should be fully based on player decision, which is right on. Automated safety is biased in favor of the lazy and incompetent.
Not necessarily as easy. A system like that would open the way for a whole new gameplay dimension, since you could create modules to reduce your detection signature or increase your radar range. Or even force the basic scanner user to compromise between range and reliability. But replacing local with nothing would reduce 0.0 life to gate camps and moon wars. Hardly interesting.
I for once i'm in favor of making 0.0 NPC's drop more bounties to coop with the increase "dangerousness" of having no local, and make highsec rats not drop bounties. That will balance risk vs reward in null without local.
When it comes to mining the market will respond to your needs, because the ones using a group effort will be rewarded by low casualties, and because the solo ones will be ganked more often the prices will increase ,rewarding the group.
Edited just to say that o personally won't mind CCP removing ABC from C1 to C4 WHs if that means removing local from null. Just to make mining in null more worth it without local.
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Kity Kity
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Posted - 2011.08.31 11:20:00 -
[359]
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 30/08/2011 22:36:52
Originally by: Kity Kity Removing Local ... How about .... no !?
how about.. you get organized instead of crying about it? It sounds like 'working smart' is something you types are incapable of, and apparently you should gtfo of null sec. Beautiful use of the English language. I bet you're one of those guys docked up in one of those stations and this is the only thing you can say about it because you are unwilling to get organized
get off your carebear butt and work for your safety, earn your keep or gtfo of null. Amazing. You have the rats, the plexes, the blobs, the stations, all that jazz but it's still not good enough for you to defend yourself? Guess what? There is risk living in risky space..
Carthage is full of risk averse noobs- nuke them.
Who are you to respond like if you knew what i really do ?
seems that you're the one not being able to organize you and you're budys to sneak by and jump on people in null sec, because you're so fail and have to come wine to ccp : "oh please ccp, remove local so i can sneack by and go pawn someone and have my 15$ worth of fun pawning someone "
well, people that choose to live in null sec do get organized and pawn you at the gate and relieve you from you're plex bought arazu, curse or cynabal.
by the way, you're curse whas delicious mnhom mnhom mnhom
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Shadowsword
The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva
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Posted - 2011.08.31 11:33:00 -
[360]
Edited by: Shadowsword on 31/08/2011 11:33:35
Originally by: Aelius I for once i'm in favor of making 0.0 NPC's drop more bounties to coop with the increase "dangerousness" of having no local, and make highsec rats not drop bounties. That will balance risk vs reward in null without local.
Another great idea, eh?
Remove high-sec bounties -> Eve lose at the very least a large minority of it's population (80% of players are in high-sec, and most aren't miners or traders) -> Great financial difficulties for CCP, with all sorts of drastic cost-cutting initiatives incoming.
How about the next you think about the consequences of what you're suggesting before you post it? ------------------------------------------
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Kity Kity
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Posted - 2011.08.31 11:34:00 -
[361]
Originally by: Sean Digsel Edited by: Sean Digsel on 30/08/2011 23:04:09 Edited by: Sean Digsel on 30/08/2011 23:02:04
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 30/08/2011 12:34:14
With the way things are of late it's already hard to find an actual fight because of local.. Unless you enjoy blob warfare, which boils down to nothing more than a single brain controlling 1000 f1 mashing thumb-sucker monkeys with 0 actual pilot skill, all fed free intel by a couple of cloaked ships.
What changes would no local bring? Some people will have to lean to be aware of their surroundings and stop being ankle biting coat-tail riders, and fcs will need more scouts, fights might actually happen more often as groups move around and or move into each other, rather than the current state, which is wait wait wait ok we have 1000 drakes to their 100 let's go- OR oh they have 1000 drakes we sit here and do nothing. Null combat is supposed to involve risk, and the current state does nothing but cater to those with the lowest level of awareness and pilot skill.
Carthage must be destroyed.
+1. If null is supposed to be where the real money is made, it should also come with added danger. Scouts would have to do MORE work to find targets (right now, "system empty - jump jump" or +3 in local, checking belts etc). The defenders would have the advantage if they had eyes on gate, or they could dscan like a champ and align\warp when they get a hit. "But what about our big slow shiny battleships?" well, if you have shinies out, you should pick up a scout. If you want mobility, use smaller ships.
removing local has nothing to do with getting 'free \ easy \ lazy' kills. It'd reward the people who were more organized and penalize people who aren't very aware - on both sides.
Not to mention you could do things like bait pirates with a nice big killmail on the belts, while you have a hidden fleet ready to pounce on them.
removing local will tip the scalle on the side of the atackers, being them campers or roamers.
the game is balanced as it is.
overview is useful for a lot of things, other than see if there's hostiles, like possible fleet members or friendly s to organize operations.
for those that don't want "local" there's a place for you, wormholes. or do you or you don't like wormholles and being told to go there ? then what makes you think you have the right of wanting to impose how others should choose what to do or to live?
the game already covers several different choices.
nothing needs to be fixed there! problem solved ! feel free to send me iskys for solving it !
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Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.08.31 12:01:00 -
[362]
Originally by: Kity Kity
Originally by: Sean Digsel Edited by: Sean Digsel on 30/08/2011 23:04:09 Edited by: Sean Digsel on 30/08/2011 23:02:04
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 30/08/2011 12:34:14
With the way things are of late it's already hard to find an actual fight because of local.. Unless you enjoy blob warfare, which boils down to nothing more than a single brain controlling 1000 f1 mashing thumb-sucker monkeys with 0 actual pilot skill, all fed free intel by a couple of cloaked ships.
What changes would no local bring? Some people will have to lean to be aware of their surroundings and stop being ankle biting coat-tail riders, and fcs will need more scouts, fights might actually happen more often as groups move around and or move into each other, rather than the current state, which is wait wait wait ok we have 1000 drakes to their 100 let's go- OR oh they have 1000 drakes we sit here and do nothing. Null combat is supposed to involve risk, and the current state does nothing but cater to those with the lowest level of awareness and pilot skill.
Carthage must be destroyed.
+1. If null is supposed to be where the real money is made, it should also come with added danger. Scouts would have to do MORE work to find targets (right now, "system empty - jump jump" or +3 in local, checking belts etc). The defenders would have the advantage if they had eyes on gate, or they could dscan like a champ and align\warp when they get a hit. "But what about our big slow shiny battleships?" well, if you have shinies out, you should pick up a scout. If you want mobility, use smaller ships.
removing local has nothing to do with getting 'free \ easy \ lazy' kills. It'd reward the people who were more organized and penalize people who aren't very aware - on both sides.
Not to mention you could do things like bait pirates with a nice big killmail on the belts, while you have a hidden fleet ready to pounce on them.
removing local will tip the scalle on the side of the atackers, being them campers or roamers.
the game is balanced as it is.
overview is useful for a lot of things, other than see if there's hostiles, like possible fleet members or friendly s to organize operations.
for those that don't want "local" there's a place for you, wormholes. or do you or you don't like wormholles and being told to go there ? then what makes you think you have the right of wanting to impose how others should choose what to do or to live?
the game already covers several different choices.
nothing needs to be fixed there! problem solved ! feel free to send me iskys for solving it !
Makes me chuckle you're whole post was about how easy it was to do things. You're in big bad scary 0.0 it's not supossed to be easy or am I wrong in the assumption? Been on plenty of roams and blobs and local is only ever used for intel and smack, you have corp/alliance/fleets chat to organize so don't BS me you need local to do that.
I lived in 0.0 and wormholes and I wouldn't bat an eyelid if they removed local, local is for lazy people who want to rat in peace or for fc/scouts who want quick intel without actually scanning for anything.
How many times have people had "local" spike and then been told to haul a s s to a safer system? Local is used as an intel tool now in 0.0 nothing else, christ you even get chewed in most alliances if you even talk in local (exception for the Goons of course).
If you can't talk in local or at least dissuaded from talking in local then whats the point of having it if not just for intel?
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Spurty
Caldari V0LTA VOLTA Corp
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Posted - 2011.08.31 12:15:00 -
[363]
Local fills a void.
The map could solve one part of this problem (have it real time).
The social part however, that's going away at a HUGE cost. So huge that you, like an ANT being told about how a motor car works, can't even begin to fathom even the most basic concepts of.
But I'm alright mate, I only use local to read tears (although thanks for you in game mails. Suggest google translate because I'm actually English).
CCP have been trying to dream up an acceptable replacement for years. When that arrives, local can go away as it'll be playing second fiddle anyway.
Dotlan = more intel than local by the way. The map is just a horrendous blur when looking at large numbers.
Meet CCP Rick Roller |
Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.31 12:32:00 -
[364]
Edited by: Aelius on 31/08/2011 12:43:49
Originally by: Shadowsword Edited by: Shadowsword on 31/08/2011 11:33:35
Originally by: Aelius I for once i'm in favor of making 0.0 NPC's drop more bounties to coop with the increase "dangerousness" of having no local, and make highsec rats not drop bounties. That will balance risk vs reward in null without local.
Another great idea, eh?
Remove high-sec bounties -> Eve lose at the very least a large minority of it's population (80% of players are in high-sec, and most aren't miners or traders) -> Great financial difficulties for CCP, with all sorts of drastic cost-cutting initiatives incoming.
How about the next you think about the consequences of what you're suggesting before you post it?
And if i retract the "remove bounties from highsec" idea and only buff the null ones?! And remove ALL ABC from ALL the WHS?
I bet won't be ok by you, because no matter what ideas i throw to the table you just want your "all seeing eye" untouched in null. Right?!
Ideas are thrown to the table but none fits you. Want proof?
We say: "Ok... Local will detect all ships except the cloaked ones."
You reply: "No because CCP story line says that gates record jumps and bla bla bla, so no."
We remind you: "WH don't have gates so the story line won't affect a cloaked ship coming from there."
You reply: "No because local is like God that sees everything, and WHs apply by the rules of God. So they must show up in Local."
ETC ETC ETC.
God damn it just admit that you want an easy, always available, 100% secure tool to warp before you are engaged in any activity you might be doing in nullsec. JUST ADMIT IT
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.31 12:37:00 -
[365]
Originally by: Aelius And if i retract the "remove bounties from highsec" idea and only buff the null ones?! And remove ALL ABC from ALL the WHS?
I bet won't be ok by you, because no matter what ideas i trow to the table you just want your "all seeing eye" untouched in null. Right?!
You realize the "remove all ABC from holes", even C1 to C4, is a horrible idea that cripples T3 production, right? Just tossing that out there.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Kity Kity
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Posted - 2011.08.31 12:43:00 -
[366]
Edited by: Kity Kity on 31/08/2011 12:46:25
Originally by: Signal11th
Originally by: Kity Kity
Originally by: Sean Digsel Edited by: Sean Digsel on 30/08/2011 23:04:09 Edited by: Sean Digsel on 30/08/2011 23:02:04
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 30/08/2011 12:34:14
removing local will tip the scalle on the side of the atackers, being them campers or roamers.
the game is balanced as it is.
overview is useful for a lot of things, other than see if there's hostiles, like possible fleet members or friendly s to organize operations.
for those that don't want "local" there's a place for you, wormholes. or do you or you don't like wormholles and being told to go there ? then what makes you think you have the right of wanting to impose how others should choose what to do or to live?
the game already covers several different choices.
nothing needs to be fixed there! problem solved ! feel free to send me iskys for solving it !
Makes me chuckle you're whole post was about how easy it was to do things. You're in big bad scary 0.0 it's not supossed to be easy or am I wrong in the assumption? Been on plenty of roams and blobs and local is only ever used for intel and smack, you have corp/alliance/fleets chat to organize so don't BS me you need local to do that.
I lived in 0.0 and wormholes and I wouldn't bat an eyelid if they removed local, local is for lazy people who want to rat in peace or for fc/scouts who want quick intel without actually scanning for anything.
How many times have people had "local" spike and then been told to haul a s s to a safer system? Local is used as an intel tool now in 0.0 nothing else, christ you even get chewed in most alliances if you even talk in local (exception for the Goons of course).
If you can't talk in local or at least dissuaded from talking in local then whats the point of having it if not just for intel?
No need to chuckle for not seeing the obvious, just pay more attention and use the brains to understand. Waite, i put it in a simple way, for you're brain to grasp :
first: overview works = don't touch it so it doesn't break = good work or: if you touch it and it breaks = bad work and effort = wasted time and resources
0.0 is not easy, but removing local would make it easier. like allowing you to travel unnoticed in you're warp cloacky stealth bomber, unless there was a 24h gatecamp in you're path, and now one wants to do a 24h gatecamp or keep an eye 24h in a row, scouting a gate, when it only takes 1-2 seconds for you're stealth bomber to recloack after jump the gate.
no, that is not making null sec more dangerous, is making it easyer and safer for you.
all you pilots posting about wanting to remove "local" claiming it's to make it more dangerous, are wrong, you just want to make it easier for you, to find other pilots to kill, get you're easy kills and talk in the killmail posts how big is you're shrimp because you cough this or that and look how big i am.
well, what if local provides Intel ? it does it both ways, and has been like that for a long time and it's good as it is. go wine to you're mama about it.
the game is balanced as it is.
there's no "local" in wormholes but it's necessary good probing skills and there are sighs like wormhole exits/ entrances that provide some sort of alert for those that seek.
if null sec would loose the "local" there would be no indication what so ever of activity, that there was someone in the system, unless you where scouting the gate 24h without blinking the eyes and no one want to play a game like that.
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.31 12:46:00 -
[367]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Aelius And if i retract the "remove bounties from highsec" idea and only buff the null ones?! And remove ALL ABC from ALL the WHS?
I bet won't be ok by you, because no matter what ideas i trow to the table you just want your "all seeing eye" untouched in null. Right?!
You realize the "remove all ABC from holes", even C1 to C4, is a horrible idea that cripples T3 production, right? Just tossing that out there.
It's just to make a point Ingvar. You could nerf the entire EVE space and 1000% buff nullsec and people would still want local, because its cuddly safe.
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Kity Kity
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Posted - 2011.08.31 12:51:00 -
[368]
Originally by: Aelius
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Aelius And if i retract the "remove bounties from highsec" idea and only buff the null ones?! And remove ALL ABC from ALL the WHS?
I bet won't be ok by you, because no matter what ideas i trow to the table you just want your "all seeing eye" untouched in null. Right?!
You realize the "remove all ABC from holes", even C1 to C4, is a horrible idea that cripples T3 production, right? Just tossing that out there.
It's just to make a point Ingvar. You could nerf the entire EVE space and 1000% buff nullsec and people would still want local, because its cuddly safe.
cuddle safe or not, people do seem to prefer it to stay. but, ccp could do something to please everyone's taste.
they could add an option to enable/disable the "local" in null sec, and each one would play as they like.
so, some that are keeping eyes in local could use it to see when a cloacky enters system or to look for friendly. and cloacky pawats could disable it to feel more challenged. it would be like playing in higher difficulty level.
so everywone would be happy.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.31 12:52:00 -
[369]
Originally by: Aelius
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Aelius And if i retract the "remove bounties from highsec" idea and only buff the null ones?! And remove ALL ABC from ALL the WHS?
I bet won't be ok by you, because no matter what ideas i trow to the table you just want your "all seeing eye" untouched in null. Right?!
You realize the "remove all ABC from holes", even C1 to C4, is a horrible idea that cripples T3 production, right? Just tossing that out there.
It's just to make a point Ingvar. You could nerf the entire EVE space and 1000% buff nullsec and people would still want local, because its cuddly safe.
Oh, my apologies. I'm a little touchy with regards to people messing with my hole. That's a completely valid point. People want null to be as carebear as high sec without the sec status for when they feel like pretending their space-pirates.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 12:56:00 -
[370]
Originally by: Kity Kity
cuddle safe or not, people do seem to prefer it to stay. but, ccp could do something to please everyone's taste.
they could add an option to enable/disable the "local" in null sec, and each one would play as they like.
so, some that are keeping eyes in local could use it to see when a cloacky enters system or to look for friendly. and cloacky pawats could disable it to feel more challenged. it would be like playing in higher difficulty level.
so everywone would be happy.
Simplest tweak that would add the most to the game (my opinion, of course), I'll reiterate:
1. Cloaked ships disappear from local. You can't see them anymore, you don't know for sure if they're in system. 2. Cloaked ships lose access to local. They're cloaked, electronically cut off... they can't use local as an intel tool. They'll need to actively gather intel by other means if that's their goal. 3. Cynos get a 30 to 60 second delay before they can be activated when you decloak. Prevents the excessive advantage a cloaked ship not on local would have, allows some reaction time or a call for help.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.31 13:01:00 -
[371]
Edited by: Aelius on 31/08/2011 13:33:14
Originally by: Kity Kity
No need to chuckle for not seeing the obvious, just pay more attention and use the brains to understand. Waite, i put it in a simple way, for you're brain to grasp :
first: overview works = don't touch it so it doesn't break = good work or: if you touch it and it breaks = bad work and effort = wasted time and resources
0.0 is not easy, but removing local would make it easier. like allowing you to travel unnoticed in you're warp cloacky stealth bomber, unless there was a 24h gatecamp in you're path, and now one wants to do a 24h gatecamp or keep an eye 24h in a row, scouting a gate, when it only takes 1-2 seconds for you're stealth bomber to recloack after jump the gate.
no, that is not making null sec more dangerous, is making it easyer and safer for you.
all you pilots posting about wanting to remove "local" claiming it's to make it more dangerous, are wrong, you just want to make it easier for you, to find other pilots to kill, get you're easy kills and talk in the killmail posts how big is you're shrimp because you cough this or that and look how big i am.
well, what if local provides Intel ? it does it both ways, and has been like that for a long time and it's good as it is. go wine to you're mama about it.
the game is balanced as it is.
there's no "local" in wormholes but it's necessary good probing skills and there are sighs like wormhole exits/ entrances that provide some sort of alert for those that seek.
if null sec would loose the "local" there would be no indication what so ever of activity, that there was someone in the system, unless you where scouting the gate 24h without blinking the eyes and no one want to play a game like that.
No need to chuckle for not seeing the obvious, just pay more attention and use the brains to understand. Waite, i put it in a simple way, for you're brain to grasp :
It's a STEALTH bomber Pretty much a glass cannon, if you ratting in a BS i doubt 1 stealth bomber will kill you. About mining ops just have a few armored escorts guarding the op (fast locking frigs will negate the stealth bomber).
Although i need to admit that the last scenario is hard to counter, mainly because belts are not grav sites in WH, and there's no scanning involved in order to warp there, thus negating the warning of scanner probes on your D-Scan. Although you would still see the stealth bomber pilot in Local for the brief moment that he uncloaks from the jump and recloaks.
I think the best option is to introduce some type of module that will give a warning when a stealth ship is X kms (+ skills) from you ship. It wont decloak it but it will give you a warning like "Warning, cloaked ship detected within 30 Kms radius"
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Signal11th
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 13:40:00 -
[372]
Edited by: Signal11th on 31/08/2011 13:53:32
No need to chuckle for not seeing the obvious, just pay more attention and use the brains to understand. Waite, i put it in a simple way, for you're brain to grasp :
first: overview works = don't touch it so it doesn't break = good work or: if you touch it and it breaks = bad work and effort = wasted time and resources 0.0 is not easy, but removing local would make it easier. like allowing you to travel unnoticed in you're warp cloacky stealth bomber, unless there was a 24h gatecamp in you're path, and now one wants to do a 24h gatecamp or keep an eye 24h in a row, scouting a gate, when it only takes 1-2 seconds for you're stealth bomber to recloack after jump the gate. no, that is not making null sec more dangerous, is making it easyer and safer for you. all you pilots posting about wanting to remove "local" claiming it's to make it more dangerous, are wrong, you just want to make it easier for you, to find other pilots to kill, get you're easy kills and talk in the killmail posts how big is you're shrimp because you cough this or that and look how big i am.
well, what if local provides Intel ? it does it both ways, and has been like that for a long time and it's good as it is. go wine to you're mama about it.
the game is balanced as it is.
there's no "local" in wormholes but it's necessary good probing skills and there are sighs like wormhole exits/ entrances that provide some sort of alert for those that seek.
if null sec would loose the "local" there would be no indication what so ever of activity, that there was someone in the system, unless you where scouting the gate 24h without blinking the eyes and no one want to play a game like that.
Pro Tip:
If your going to tell someone to use their brains at least check your spelling!
I've spent 2 years in 0.0, its easy, not an assumption this is from experience. By this I mean its easy for the individual player, I'm not talking about setting up JBs/logistics etc (alliances/corps work damn hard at this) In fact its that easy its boring but wait the much vaunted 0.0 elite tell the rest of us how to live but when a change is proposed to their safe little bubbles the usual diatribe of crap comes out telling us "we" don't know how hard 0.0 is already.
How exactly is removing local making it safer for me? Its levels the playing field nobody has an advantage.
Christ, compared to low-sec/wormholes/Jita 4-4/ 0.0 is like that little area you had in Ultima Online when you first started. Most PVP'ers in 0.0 I have known wouldn't give two hoots about removing local because guess what they aren't interested in ratting 24/7 and actually know how to PVP without using local.
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.31 14:18:00 -
[373]
Originally by: Kity Kity
cuddle safe or not, people do seem to prefer it to stay. but, ccp could do something to please everyone's taste.
they could add an option to enable/disable the "local" in null sec, and each one would play as they like.
so, some that are keeping eyes in local could use it to see when a cloacky enters system or to look for friendly. and cloacky pawats could disable it to feel more challenged. it would be like playing in higher difficulty level.
so everywone would be happy.
By "people" you mean you and the others in favor of Local. Me and others are not part of that "people".
"please everyone's taste": I have a personal taste for gasing C320 in Jita, so CCP should make it available for me. You others that feel that gasing C320 in WH dangerous space is more challenging should disable that option.
Only if you had brains the size of your boobs...
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Spumantii
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 14:24:00 -
[374]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 14:34:31
Originally by: Kity Kity
Originally by: Aelius
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Aelius And if i retract the "remove bounties from highsec" idea and only buff the null ones?! And remove ALL ABC from ALL the WHS?
I bet won't be ok by you, because no matter what ideas i trow to the table you just want your "all seeing eye" untouched in null. Right?!
You realize the "remove all ABC from holes", even C1 to C4, is a horrible idea that cripples T3 production, right? Just tossing that out there.
It's just to make a point Ingvar. You could nerf the entire EVE space and 1000% buff nullsec and people would still want local, because its cuddly safe.
cuddle safe or not, people do seem to prefer it to stay. but, ccp could do something to please everyone's taste.
they could add an option to enable/disable the "local" in null sec, and each one would play as they like.
so, some that are keeping eyes in local could use it to see when a cloacky enters system or to look for friendly. and cloacky pawats could disable it to feel more challenged. it would be like playing in higher difficulty level.
so everywone would be happy.
You are an idiot. You certainly talk like you know what you're talking about, but you don't have a clue, you keep talking about people 'getting smart' and at the same time you defend a system that protects all the dummies out there like you. You assume anyone doing any small scale pvp is brainless and incompetent, when they make you mad enough they are clearly more competent than you.
How long have you been in null, how many kills do you have, have you ever led a fleet? Do you do anything other than rat? Your lack of understanding and clearly indignant rage at anything that might hurt your precious little sanctum farming shows you are nothing but one of the types I posted earlier. Only someone who has no clue would claim what you've said. Local makes it easy, EASY for you types to BUG OUT as soon as someone enters local. Exactly how does 'getting smart' have anything at all to do with this?
Am I supposed to hot drop your pos to make you come out? Siege your station because you hide in it all day? Grow some balls and be accountable for your space- trog. Your idea of smart must be using dev hax. 3 years of roaming has taught us some pretty clever tricks mind you, and judging by your tone, they've worked on you on multiple occasions. Far more clever than your local riding..
What curse are you talking about? Come back and talk when you have 1000 kills in small gangs. CCP, remove local and these uncreative idiots will quit, and the game will be so much better for all of us.
"if null sec would loose the "local" there would be no indication what so ever of activity, that there was someone in the system, unless you where scouting the gate 24h without blinking the eyes and no one want to play a game like that."
Man you just don't seem to get it, nothing comes without a price. Pay the price or GTFO and stop crying. This thread is already full of how you can see people without an immediate local chat, but I suspect your reading skill is not up to par.
TL:DR We don't need local to get kills. Trog needs local in order to insta dock and safe up, and call anyone else stupid for trying- when the global chat is stupid to begin with.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 14:28:00 -
[375]
Wow this thread is just overun with stupid. Unfortunately no one in the anti-local group wants to actually engage in dialogue. I suppose that would inform them that killing local will in fact hurt pvp.
But please keep posting your cool stories about how one time you entered a system, the mining barges docked up, and you were sad. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 14:29:00 -
[376]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 14:30:56
Originally by: Cearain Wow this thread is just overun with stupid. Unfortunately no one in the anti-local group wants to actually engage in dialogue. I suppose that would inform them that killing local will in fact hurt pvp.
But please keep posting your cool stories about how one time you entered a system, the mining barges docked up, and you were sad.
There's plenty of dialogue. Watch your in gates and you don't have to click click click, or did you selectively ignore that most obvious point? Have you never actually been a scout? Intel comes from (should come from) player activity, not an instant feed drip local trough of greedy docking pig joy.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 14:36:00 -
[377]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 14:48:28 Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 14:37:15 We don't need local to get kills. Trog needs local in order to insta dock and safe up, and call anyone else stupid for trying- when the global chat is stupid to begin with. Thus, pvp will be more frequent against idiots and smart people alike, and it will reward the most organized and punish the stupid. Or are you people also the types who don't believe in natural selection?
The lengths you people go to to pretend this game wasn't DESIGNED to be dangerous is truly amazing. Grow balls and adapt/quit.
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Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.08.31 14:47:00 -
[378]
Edited by: Signal11th on 31/08/2011 14:48:43
Originally by: Cearain Wow this thread is just overun with stupid. Unfortunately no one in the anti-local group wants to actually engage in dialogue. I suppose that would inform them that killing local will in fact hurt pvp.
But please keep posting your cool stories about how one time you entered a system, the mining barges docked up, and you were sad.
Jesus mate you post the same stuff over and over and what I can see the only people coming up with ideas are the anti's. Humm I think I shall go for CSM on the platform of getting rid of local in 0.0 and giving Mittani a good kicking.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.31 14:57:00 -
[379]
Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 15:01:54
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 14:30:56
Originally by: Cearain Wow this thread is just overun with stupid. Unfortunately no one in the anti-local group wants to actually engage in dialogue. I suppose that would inform them that killing local will in fact hurt pvp.
But please keep posting your cool stories about how one time you entered a system, the mining barges docked up, and you were sad.
There's plenty of dialogue. Watch your in gates and you don't have to click click click, or did you selectively ignore that most obvious point? Have you never actually been a scout? Intel comes from (should come from) player activity, not an instant feed drip local trough of greedy docking pig joy.
I have been a scout for years, and am generally in a Helios 90% of the time if I am in a fleet, and I can tell ya I have never seen any FC (worth anything) that will just randomly engage an opposing fleet of any size until they have eyes on ship compositions.
Even if we are a couple dozen strong and a handful of hostiles appear in local from some unknown direction, the FC wants eyes on them first before we so much as bat an eye.
In the age of hotdrops, you should never engage based purely on local, whether you vastly outnumber the hostiles or not. So the idea that local is some magnanimous tool that operates solely for the purpose of providing fights, is not quite the case. What it DOES do is let you track KNOWN fleets all over space, once you have eyes on their fleet composition, you can now actively pursue them from one system to the next so long as you have eyes anywhere in each system.
I think this is what Zagdul is getting at, no one engages unknown fleets period, unless they like being hotdropped, but almost everyone uses local intel reports, to track and pursue hostile fleets once information on that fleet's composition is known.
So beyond that, at best, local or w/e new directional scanner interface we are given simply needs to alert us when something nasty our way comes, numbers are a misnomer, all we really need to know is **** entered the system, and someone needs to get eyes on it.
So the idea is we need a way to track known fleets, beyond that local does not matter. If you cannot efficiently track a known fleet, you cannot fight it. And removing local entirely would hinder this greatly as your scouts would have to start guessing which stargates at clusters or in celestial clusters a hostile fleet warps to, even if they are unaware you are following them and are not even attempting to throw you off, OR have eyes literally on every stargate in and out from every system in a constellation and to be honest, while there are lots of 'eyes' in every system, there are few 'scouts'.
Scouting that I have ever seen is an extremely thankless job, no matter how important, because people like getting on mails, and a good scout (that is two-out) never shows up on mails, ever, cannot tell you how many times I have been the only dedicated scout to ask ahead of time to go two-out, while the FC then had to simply assign the rest of the positions to interceptors or frigates in the fleet, people who may or may not have ever even scouted before.
So requiring fleets to have scouts at every gate in a constellation or pipe just to track a hostile fleet to pursue it for a fight... yea not happening in the EVE I know.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 14:59:00 -
[380]
Originally by: Signal11th Edited by: Signal11th on 31/08/2011 14:48:43
Originally by: Cearain Wow this thread is just overun with stupid. Unfortunately no one in the anti-local group wants to actually engage in dialogue. I suppose that would inform them that killing local will in fact hurt pvp.
But please keep posting your cool stories about how one time you entered a system, the mining barges docked up, and you were sad.
Jesus mate you post the same stuff over and over and what I can see the only people coming up with ideas are the anti's. Humm I think I shall go for CSM on the platform of getting rid of local in 0.0 and giving Mittani a good kicking.
Its actually mainly the three of you - spumatti, ingvar and yourself saying the same things that have already been disproven over and over. Not one of you addressed the questions I put to you, 3 times either. I guess you are afraid to think. IDK.
Please though, another cool story about how you entered a system and the mining barges docked so you couldn't gank them. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:01:00 -
[381]
Originally by: Cearain But please keep posting your cool stories about how one time you entered a system, the mining barges docked up, and you were sad.
I have one of those! Our low hole went into a .1 system, forget the name, a long ways from empire. So I'm sitting there in my mighty magnate seeing assorted ships on DScan when someone says, in local, "Neut in system". The ships went away. Combat probes verified, no ships were in space, yet the people were still in local.
Imagine the panic if my magnate was actually armed? By the gods, I could defeat the Russians alone!
The problem is that local is no longer being used as a tool, it's being used by tools.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:03:00 -
[382]
Originally by: Cearain
Its actually mainly the three of you - spumatti, ingvar and yourself saying the same things that have already been disproven over and over. Not one of you addressed the questions I put to you, 3 times either. I guess you are afraid to think. IDK.
Denial does not equate to disproof, btw.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Potato IQ
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:04:00 -
[383]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst Simplest tweak that would add the most to the game (my opinion, of course), I'll reiterate:
1. Cloaked ships disappear from local. You can't see them anymore, you don't know for sure if they're in system. 2. Cloaked ships lose access to local. They're cloaked, electronically cut off... they can't use local as an intel tool. They'll need to actively gather intel by other means if that's their goal. 3. Cynos get a 30 to 60 second delay before they can be activated when you decloak. Prevents the excessive advantage a cloaked ship not on local would have, allows some reaction time or a call for help.
I do kind of like this idea, but you would also need a cyclic local update. Yes you can break jump cloak and initiate cloak quickly, but the local flicker would be too easy to detect. A 10 second or something refresh should hide this
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Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:06:00 -
[384]
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Signal11th Edited by: Signal11th on 31/08/2011 14:48:43
Originally by: Cearain Wow this thread is just overun with stupid. Unfortunately no one in the anti-local group wants to actually engage in dialogue. I suppose that would inform them that killing local will in fact hurt pvp.
But please keep posting your cool stories about how one time you entered a system, the mining barges docked up, and you were sad.
Jesus mate you post the same stuff over and over and what I can see the only people coming up with ideas are the anti's. Humm I think I shall go for CSM on the platform of getting rid of local in 0.0 and giving Mittani a good kicking.
Its actually mainly the three of you - spumatti, ingvar and yourself saying the same things that have already been disproven over and over. Not one of you addressed the questions I put to you, 3 times either. I guess you are afraid to think. IDK.
Please though, another cool story about how you entered a system and the mining barges docked so you couldn't gank them.
Apart from the fact you haven't disproven anything because there isn't actually anything to disprove, all of this is hypothetical so proof is mute. Check previous posts for answers to some of your questions you not looking hard enough.
Personally I don't care if local stays or goes but the current state of affairs is crap and needs to change. All I can say is that from a 0.0 denizen myself 0.0 is s hite at the moment and I personally think removing local will get rid of the fat from 0.0 and make it the place it should be, cold,dark and dangerous and not the pink fluffy place it is at the moment.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:10:00 -
[385]
look, it's easy to get kills in a wormhole, when the residents are as clueless as the average null sec farmer. there is already proof of this on the killboards.
There is also proof for those of you who have any experience in a wormhole, that it's not too hard to avoid those engagements IF you are aware enough. The question is, do you care enough to be aware or are you being lazy? If so, then you get no sympathy.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:12:00 -
[386]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain
Its actually mainly the three of you - spumatti, ingvar and yourself saying the same things that have already been disproven over and over. Not one of you addressed the questions I put to you, 3 times either. I guess you are afraid to think. IDK.
Denial does not equate to disproof, btw.
The proof is in the thread. I asked you questions, and you avoid them. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Signal11th
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:14:00 -
[387]
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain
Its actually mainly the three of you - spumatti, ingvar and yourself saying the same things that have already been disproven over and over. Not one of you addressed the questions I put to you, 3 times either. I guess you are afraid to think. IDK.
Denial does not equate to disproof, btw.
The proof is in the thread. I asked you questions, and you avoid them.
:-) 8/10 I'm falling for your trolling. Anyway your a low-sec dweller with most kills solo or in small groups so why does removing "local" from 0.0 bother you so much? In fact I would have thought as a mainly solo killer removing local would be more beneficial to you?
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:15:00 -
[388]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 15:18:47
and you ignored mine. Have you, Cearain ever taken the time to be aware of what is coming into system? Or were you too busy farming and let someone else do it for you?
Already been disproven based on what, where? Certainly any wh resident has already proven these things to be correct.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:17:00 -
[389]
Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 31/08/2011 15:35:32
Originally by: Cearain
1)removing local will increase the risk of engaging in pvp. (Specifically you will have an increased risk of getting blobbed.)
2)removing local will increase the chances of being able to gank a carebear that is in low or null sec.
Your questions are based on these assumptions. Assumption 1 is not true in and of itself. It's purely situational. If you're more aware of your surrounding, using the tools on hand for intel while engaging in your activities, you greatly reduce your risk of being blobbed. Assumption 2, same answer. Even carebear characters such as this one can avoid most unwelcomed PvP encounters simply by being aware and using the tools on hand. Questions based on these conditions being true are invalid.
One thing you're forgetting with (1) and the blob scenario is this... you're more likely to be missed by blobs as well. Blobs passing through your system, if you're out of dscan range of the gates, have a good chance to miss you as they pass through unless they specificaly stop to go out of the way looking for you.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:21:00 -
[390]
Originally by: Signal11th Edited by: Signal11th on 31/08/2011 14:48:43
Originally by: Cearain Wow this thread is just overun with stupid. Unfortunately no one in the anti-local group wants to actually engage in dialogue. I suppose that would inform them that killing local will in fact hurt pvp.
But please keep posting your cool stories about how one time you entered a system, the mining barges docked up, and you were sad.
Jesus mate you post the same stuff over and over and what I can see the only people coming up with ideas are the anti's. Humm I think I shall go for CSM on the platform of getting rid of local in 0.0 and giving Mittani a good kicking.
If you do you shall have my votes, and others i'm sure.
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
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Spumantii
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:24:00 -
[391]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 15:24:24
Originally by: Mendolus
So requiring fleets to have scouts at every gate in a constellation or pipe just to track a hostile fleet to pursue it for a fight... yea not happening in the EVE I know.
This is the way it should have been from the beginning tbh, the only reason people defend local is because they are used to how easy it is currently. To suggest people wouldn't adapt is silly when we already have in wh space.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:25:00 -
[392]
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 15:18:47
and you ignored mine. Have you, Cearain ever taken the time to be aware of what is coming into system? Or were you too busy farming and let someone else do it for you?
Already been disproven based on what, where? Certainly any wh resident has already proven these things to be correct.
As for the first question: it depends what you mean. I usually fly solo without a scout. I don't dual box pvp as that seems a real hassle. But I of course use my dscan to see what ships the people are in.
Second question: I use dscan when I pvp and when I pve in low sec.
third question: The actual facts show that there are less than half pvp kills in wormholes per person than in null sec or low sec. That is the only fact we have. The rest is just anecdotal bs. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:26:00 -
[393]
Quote:
If you do you shall have my votes, and others i'm sure.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:28:00 -
[394]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 15:30:42
Originally by: Cearain
third question: The actual facts show that there are less than half pvp kills in wormholes per person than in null sec or low sec. That is the only fact we have. The rest is just anecdotal bs.
The only thing this proves is that wh residents got smart, and a vast number of idiots in null get themselves popped on a daily basis by NOT being smart and refusing to learn. Your statistics ignore player skill and adaptability which you argue against, and for that I truly feel sorry for you.
As for dual boxing, try having your dual in a cov ops, it's actually easy.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:32:00 -
[395]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain
1)removing local will increase the risk of engaging in pvp. (Specifically you will have an increased risk of getting blobbed.)
2)removing local will increase the chances of being able to gank a carebear that is in low or null sec.
Your questions are based on these assumptions. Assumption 1 is not true in and of itself. It's purely situational. If you're more aware of your surrounding, using the tools on hand for intel while engaging in your activities, you greatly reduce your risk of being blobbed. Assumption 2, same answer. Even carebear characters such as this one can avoid most unwelcomed PvP encounters simply by being aware and using the tools on hand. Questions based on these conditions being true are invalid.
OK so you disagree that removing local will generally increase the risk of pvp?
Unfortunately instead of saying you agree or disagree you just said "If you're more aware of your surrounding, using the tools on hand for intel while engaging in your activities, you greatly reduce your risk of being blobbed." Well ok we can both agree with that but that is beside the point.
You disagree with the second assumption? Is local not a usefull tool that carebears use to avoid being ganked? If it is then removing it will if not make pve more dangerous it will at least make it more difficult right? -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:34:00 -
[396]
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 15:30:42
Originally by: Cearain
third question: The actual facts show that there are less than half pvp kills in wormholes per person than in null sec or low sec. That is the only fact we have. The rest is just anecdotal bs.
The only thing this proves is that wh residents got smart, and a vast number of idiots in null get themselves popped on a daily basis by NOT being smart and refusing to learn. Your statistics ignore player skill and adaptability which you argue against, and for that I truly feel sorry for you.
Oh I see the wormhole players are more intelligent and skilled than null sec players. Like I said the fact is there is less than half the pvp in wormholes per player than low sec and null sec the rest is just speculation and BS.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Spumantii
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:36:00 -
[397]
The risk in pvp is based entirely on how well you gather intel. If you can't then yes, it will be risky. If you already can gather intel then no, it will be easier, and pvp will happen more often and more dynamically.
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:36:00 -
[398]
Edited by: Aelius on 31/08/2011 15:53:40
Cearain, as you ask question i will ask you this.
Given a pool that you need to answer for some study:
Dear 0.0 player. You use Local more often for...
A - Smack talk after a fight.
B - As an intel to look for PVP
C - As an intel tool to escape PVP
After 1000 queries which one would have more votes? (considering 100% of the answers were true)
Originally by: Cearain
third question: The actual facts show that there are less than half pvp kills in wormholes per person than in null sec or low sec. That is the only fact we have. The rest is just anecdotal bs.
And this has nothing to do with local... well it has... if there was Local in WH the kills would be reduced to even less. What makes for such low numbers is not the absence of local, BUT the need to scan several WH's out with 15 sigs each until you find possible targets, and you may not know but scanning is both boring and time consuming. Not to mention the 0.0 BLOB WARS where several hundred ships are destroyed in 10 minutes
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:39:00 -
[399]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 15:45:03
Originally by: Cearain
Oh I see the wormhole players are more intelligent and skilled than null sec players. Like I said the fact is there is less than half the pvp in wormholes per player than low sec and null sec the rest is just speculation and BS.
Apparently they are, given that apparently, null sec residents require local to do their fighting. WHers are in WH space for different reasons, and yes, there are fewer idiots- they don't last long, and generally there is far less traffic. Also, there are far fewer people *living* in wormhole space, so the fighting statistics, when it happens, should be based on time spent in system- I guarantee you if you divide your numbers by minutes spent in systems it will show that when people are active pvp is just as common in wh as elsewhere.
I have lived everywhere in this game and I can say the majority of residents in null are inept and can't do anything without someone telling them what to do. Without local you introduce player responsibility and accountability for their own safety when not in a 1000 man drake fleet, which requires a TOTAL of 1 brain to manage.
As for dual boxing, try having your dual in a cov ops, it's actually easy. Like I said before, removing immediate mode in null rewards the organized and punishes the stupid. The way it should be.
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Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:45:00 -
[400]
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 15:30:42
Originally by: Cearain
third question: The actual facts show that there are less than half pvp kills in wormholes per person than in null sec or low sec. That is the only fact we have. The rest is just anecdotal bs.
The only thing this proves is that wh residents got smart, and a vast number of idiots in null get themselves popped on a daily basis by NOT being smart and refusing to learn. Your statistics ignore player skill and adaptability which you argue against, and for that I truly feel sorry for you.
Oh I see the wormhole players are more intelligent and skilled than null sec players. Like I said the fact is there is less than half the pvp in wormholes per player than low sec and null sec the rest is just speculation and BS.
I'd imagine that's because there's alot less people in wormholes and more often than not most people are s hit scared to go into a wormhole. I wouldn't say wh pople are more intelligent but I would say they have more of a "tester" mentality.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:45:00 -
[401]
Originally by: Cearain
OK so you disagree that removing local will generally increase the risk of pvp?
Define risk. Do you mean the chance of PvP or the danger of engaging in PvP you were going to engage in anyhow? For the chance of PvP, it varies depending on the person. A person who's aware will have less chance in being jumped unaware simply because without local he needs to be hunted down and caught. A person less aware won't notice he's being hunted and will wind up a statistic.
Originally by: Cearain You disagree with the second assumption? Is local not a usefull tool that carebears use to avoid being ganked? If it is then removing it will if not make pve more dangerous it will at least make it more difficult right?
Removing it can make it more or less dangerous for the carebear depending on the carebear. If your blob enters a system and sees noone on dscan, that carebear ratting 30AU away has a much better chance of not being caught if the blob fails to actively check the whole system. If the blob checks properly and the carebear has learned to be aware, he still has a good chance to get away, and his heart will be poundign from the near-miss of seeing someone on dscan, warping to the station and seeing the blob on the way. If he's watching TV while mining and doesn't have a sudden group of people show up in local grabbing his attention, he's toast.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Spumantii
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:46:00 -
[402]
Originally by: Signal11th
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 15:30:42
Originally by: Cearain
third question: The actual facts show that there are less than half pvp kills in wormholes per person than in null sec or low sec. That is the only fact we have. The rest is just anecdotal bs.
The only thing this proves is that wh residents got smart, and a vast number of idiots in null get themselves popped on a daily basis by NOT being smart and refusing to learn. Your statistics ignore player skill and adaptability which you argue against, and for that I truly feel sorry for you.
Oh I see the wormhole players are more intelligent and skilled than null sec players. Like I said the fact is there is less than half the pvp in wormholes per player than low sec and null sec the rest is just speculation and BS.
I'd imagine that's because there's alot less people in wormholes and more often than not most people are s hit scared to go into a wormhole. I wouldn't say wh pople are more intelligent but I would say they have more of a "tester" mentality.
Fair enough, that is just an example of adaptability, and player accountability, which seems to be much higher in wh space, apparently.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:49:00 -
[403]
Originally by: Signal11th I'd imagine that's because there's alot less people in wormholes and more often than not most people are s hit scared to go into a wormhole. I wouldn't say wh people are more intelligent but I would say they have more of a "tester" mentality.
I would, but there's reason to suspect that may not be a fully unbiased opinion.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:49:00 -
[404]
Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 15:52:55
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 15:24:24 This is the way it should have been from the beginning tbh, the only reason people defend local is because they are used to how easy it is currently. To suggest people wouldn't adapt is silly when we already have in wh space.
Okay let's say you are trying to defend this constellation. It has one way in and three systems in the pocket, each system connects to every other system. Let's assume you want to cover input and not output.
That requires you are watching >>>B-WPLZ That requires you are watching >>>TU-O0T x3. That requires you are watching >>>E-YCML That requires you are watching >>>Y9-MDG
So that requires six scouts to cover six input gates, not counting mobile scouts to actually report movement in the system itself, provide warp-ins, probing, etc.
So if a gang of six comes into the pocket, I am now required to have a gang of more than twelve just to keep track of which system the hostiles jump to from one moment to the next, since our residents in system cannot simply report that the hostile fleet entered X anymore.
With no tool in place to simply alert our fleet which system the hostiles have traveled to without having permanent eyes at every gate, we are left with no recourse but to wait at the entrance to the pocket for them to come back out.
So instead of encouraging more fluid and dynamic PvP, all the removal of local does is guarantee that is more advantageous for us to simply camp access points even more so than before, because to be honest, why have six stationary and immobile scouts to eye a pocket when those same scouts could be in DPS or Support ships within the fleet? The hostile gang is only six people, and we would need six people to efficiently track their movements with no local in place, why the living hell would we not just gang up in a dozen ships and wait at the exit gate for them? There goes your fluid and dynamic small to medium gang PvP out the door right then and there.
The last thing we want to do is encourage even more camping. It is hard enough to pin down a fleet that does not want to fight without a good number of bubble pilots (which are also rare) let alone if we were to be required to force pilots that were previously part of the main fleet to instead sit motionless at gates to provide constant updates on fleet movements.
We need better tools to alert us when people enter system, but it should be smarter than it is now, so people actually looking for fights can still find them, but people HIDING or AVOIDING fights have to work harder to do so.
Best of both worlds ^ do not literally get rid of local, just dumb it down, and put something better in its place. Better for finding fights, not avoiding them.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Spumantii
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:53:00 -
[405]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 15:56:43
Originally by: Mendolus
It has one way in
One scout wathing the way in, and 1-2 scouts in fleet to pinpoint their current location after entering, by which time a constellation like this SHOULD already have a fleet up, if the players care at all about defending themselves.
I don't get it. You already have the population, is a 12 man fleet too difficult to muster? For those that say yes, high sec is ---> that way..
Decent small gangs don't just camp. Hit and run fast moving engagement of slightly outnumbered fleets, given the right ship type, is the goal. It doesn't change from what we already do. You also forgot the pvp gang will need scouts too.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:55:00 -
[406]
Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 15:57:54
Originally by: Spumantii
Originally by: Mendolus
It has one way in
One scout wathing the way in, and 1-2 scouts in fleet to pinpoint their current location after entering, by which time a constellation like this SHOULD already have a fleet up, if the players care at all about defending themselves.
So you are suggesting that all small to medium gang PvP consist of gatecamps on exit points in constellations or pipes? A hostile fleet can already warp around all over the system willy nilly as much as they want until they are bubbled up, otherwise at the most if they do NOT want to fight, you're just going to pick them off one or two at a time while they run like hell from you, and vice versa.
The last thing we need is to encourage more of this ^
Uh no, I am saying any system that requires you have that many eyes just to find a hostile fleet is going to fail cascade because it is just easier to set them in the fleet and camp the exit point than to do all that work to watch every gate to get adequate intel reports.
There are few enough people that like to scout by profession as it is, what makes you think forcing them into those roles is going to encourage small to medium roaming fleets for both defense and offense? How successful has CCP been thus far in forcing high sec squatters into null sec? They do not want to be there, just like the vast majority of people do not want to scout or sit motionless at a gate while everyone else has the time of their lives and gets on phatty killmails they can then flaunt later.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Spumantii
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:57:00 -
[407]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 15:58:05 Decent small gangs don't just camp. Hit and run fast moving engagement of slightly outnumbered fleets, given the right ship type, is the goal. It doesn't change from what we already do. You also forgot the pvp gang will need scouts too.
The goal in that scenario would be to get in fast and kill people before/as they are forming up and not already organized. Again, it comes down to being organized.
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Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:57:00 -
[408]
Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 15:52:55
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 15:24:24 This is the way it should have been from the beginning tbh, the only reason people defend local is because they are used to how easy it is currently. To suggest people wouldn't adapt is silly when we already have in wh space.
Okay let's say you are trying to defend this constellation. It has one way in and three systems in the pocket, each system connects to every other system. Let's assume you want to cover input and not output.
That requires you are watching >>>B-WPLZ That requires you are watching >>>TU-O0T x3. That requires you are watching >>>E-YCML That requires you are watching >>>Y9-MDG
So that requires six scouts to cover six input gates, not counting mobile scouts to actually report movement in the system itself, provide warp-ins, probing, etc.
So if a gang of six comes into the pocket, I am now required to have a gang of more than twelve just to keep track of which system the hostiles jump to from one moment to the next, since our residents in system cannot simply report that the hostile fleet entered X anymore.
With no tool in place to simply alert our fleet which system the hostiles have traveled to without having permanent eyes at every gate, we are left with no recourse but to wait at the entrance to the pocket for them to come back out.
So instead of encouraging more fluid and dynamic PvP, all the removal of local does is guarantee that is more advantageous for us to simply camp access points even more so than before, because to be honest, why have six stationary and immobile scouts to eye a pocket when those same scouts could be in DPS or Support ships within the fleet? The hostile gang is only six people, and we would need six people to efficiently track their movements with no local in place, why the living hell would we not just gang up in a dozen ships and wait at the exit gate for them? There goes your fluid and dynamic small to medium gang PvP out the door right then and there.
The last thing we want to do is encourage even more camping. It is hard enough to pin down a fleet that does not want to fight without a good number of bubble pilots (which are also rare) let alone if we were to be required to force pilots that were previously part of the main fleet to instead sit motionless at gates to provide constant updates on fleet movements.
We need better tools to alert us when people enter system, but it should be smarter than it is now, so people actually looking for fights can still find them, but people HIDING or AVOIDING fights have to work harder to do so.
Best of both worlds ^ do not literally get rid of local, just dumb it down, and put something better in its place. Better for finding fights, not avoiding them.
Err why not just have a scout on the b-w out gate from kb? according to that map there's only one way in and one way out. (must admit I'm always s hite at reading these things?
If my above premise is correct the scout tells you theres an incoming gang you can safe up and organize a fleet.
If my above premise is wrong I admit I'm a c ock and aplogise!!!
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.31 15:58:00 -
[409]
Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 15:58:44
Originally by: Signal11th Err why not just have a scout on the b-w out gate from kb? according to that map there's only one way in and one way out. (must admit I'm always s hite at reading these things?
If my above premise is correct the scout tells you theres an incoming gang you can safe up and organize a fleet.
If my above premise is wrong I admit I'm a c ock and aplogise!!!
Again, that would mean small to medium gang combat would be reduced to gate camping... what the hell fun is that?
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 15:59:00 -
[410]
Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 15:52:55
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 15:24:24 This is the way it should have been from the beginning tbh, the only reason people defend local is because they are used to how easy it is currently. To suggest people wouldn't adapt is silly when we already have in wh space.
Okay let's say you are trying to defend this constellation. It has one way in and three systems in the pocket, each system connects to every other system. Let's assume you want to cover input and not output.
That requires you are watching >>>B-WPLZ That requires you are watching >>>TU-O0T x3. That requires you are watching >>>E-YCML That requires you are watching >>>Y9-MDG
So that requires six scouts to cover six input gates, not counting mobile scouts to actually report movement in the system itself, provide warp-ins, probing, etc.
So if a gang of six comes into the pocket, I am now required to have a gang of more than twelve just to keep track of which system the hostiles jump to from one moment to the next, since our residents in system cannot simply report that the hostile fleet entered X anymore.
With no tool in place to simply alert our fleet which system the hostiles have traveled to without having permanent eyes at every gate, we are left with no recourse but to wait at the entrance to the pocket for them to come back out.
So instead of encouraging more fluid and dynamic PvP, all the removal of local does is guarantee that is more advantageous for us to simply camp access points even more so than before, because to be honest, why have six stationary and immobile scouts to eye a pocket when those same scouts could be in DPS or Support ships within the fleet? The hostile gang is only six people, and we would need six people to efficiently track their movements with no local in place, why the living hell would we not just gang up in a dozen ships and wait at the exit gate for them? There goes your fluid and dynamic small to medium gang PvP out the door right then and there.
The last thing we want to do is encourage even more camping. It is hard enough to pin down a fleet that does not want to fight without a good number of bubble pilots (which are also rare) let alone if we were to be required to force pilots that were previously part of the main fleet to instead sit motionless at gates to provide constant updates on fleet movements.
We need better tools to alert us when people enter system, but it should be smarter than it is now, so people actually looking for fights can still find them, but people HIDING or AVOIDING fights have to work harder to do so.
Best of both worlds ^ do not literally get rid of local, just dumb it down, and put something better in its place. Better for finding fights, not avoiding them.
The 6 hostiles will be as blind as you, unless they bring scouts. If they don't have scouts it means they are able to take on the risk, why wont you?!
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
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Spumantii
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:00:00 -
[411]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 16:02:41 Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 16:01:47 Mendolus, your point only illustrates the point that null sec residents refuse to get organized. You already outnumber us, it's not so hard, and the space is designed to be dangerous so I'm sorry but you get no sympathy here.
You need a single scout watching one in gate. If you can't be bothered, that's a shame. Welcome to killmails.
As I said, the goal would be to get in fast and capitalize on the lack of organization, not camp the gate waiting to get hot dropped like a bunch of mouth breathers.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:04:00 -
[412]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 16:05:50 Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 16:04:50
Originally by: Mendolus stationary and immobile scouts
You're doing it wrong..
One
One single stationary alt, the rest probers and dscanners on the move with the defense fleet. Come on now, be creative.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:05:00 -
[413]
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 15:58:05 Decent small gangs don't just camp. Hit and run fast moving engagement of slightly outnumbered fleets, given the right ship type, is the goal. It doesn't change from what we already do. You also forgot the pvp gang will need scouts too.
The goal in that scenario would be to get in fast and kill people before/as they are forming up and not already organized. Again, it comes down to being organized.
How are you going to find those fleets without the most simple of information that they are indeed in system? Probing results take time, hell it takes a good minute or two just to warp to a safe, uncloak, deploy probes, recloak, open starmap, position probes, set strength, and start scannning. With no local and so many stargates in most systems that hostile fleets can warp to at random, you would need a prober in every system or eyes on every input gate... good luck with that.
Unless they require people to scan down stargates to get in and out of 0.0 systems, there is no way removing local is going to increase the frequency of PvP.
Wormholes are like fish in a barrel, 0.0 systems are like swiss cheese.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:06:00 -
[414]
Originally by: Spumantii The risk in pvp is based entirely on how well you gather intel. If you can't then yes, it will be risky. If you already can gather intel then no, it will be easier, and pvp will happen more often and more dynamically.
It will be better for players in large fleets with lots of scouts. Small scale and solo pvp will have it really bad. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Signal11th
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:08:00 -
[415]
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Spumantii The risk in pvp is based entirely on how well you gather intel. If you can't then yes, it will be risky. If you already can gather intel then no, it will be easier, and pvp will happen more often and more dynamically.
It will be better for players in large fleets with lots of scouts. Small scale and solo pvp will have it really bad.
Why? If you get past choke points (another thing CCP should change) then small medium gangs could wreak havoc.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:08:00 -
[416]
Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 16:10:17 No Spumantii, you are doing it wrong, I have scouted for fleets for years, and I am telling you exactly how hard it already is to pin down a small to medium sized gang for a fight (without gatecamping), even knowing exactly what system they are in at all times.
Removing local would only make this even more difficult.
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Spumantii The risk in pvp is based entirely on how well you gather intel. If you can't then yes, it will be risky. If you already can gather intel then no, it will be easier, and pvp will happen more often and more dynamically.
It will be better for players in large fleets with lots of scouts. Small scale and solo pvp will have it really bad.
Exactly, it's too easy to get in and out of systems in 0.0 as it is, without removing the simplest tool to know which system a hostile fleet is in from one moment to the next.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Spumantii
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:10:00 -
[417]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 16:13:35 Look- stop looking at it though a toilet paper roll. It will be just as hard for us to find you as it will be for you to find us, and you have the numbers.
I have also been a scout for years, so it's a matter of skill/luck I guess.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:10:00 -
[418]
Originally by: Mendolus [ How are you going to find those fleets without the most simple of information that they are indeed in system? Probing results take time, hell it takes a good minute or two just to warp to a safe, uncloak, deploy probes, recloak, open starmap, position probes, set strength, and start scannning. With no local and so many stargates in most systems that hostile fleets can warp to at random, you would need a prober in every system or eyes on every input gate... good luck with that.
Unless they require people to scan down stargates to get in and out of 0.0 systems, there is no way removing local is going to increase the frequency of PvP.
Wormholes are like fish in a barrel, 0.0 systems are like swiss cheese.
Makes me wonder why that one covops that was watching that one entry gate didn't follow the fleet, discretely of course, to where the fleet headed and report back to everyone else while they organize.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:11:00 -
[419]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Makes me wonder why that one covops that was watching that one entry gate didn't follow the fleet, discretely of course, to where the fleet headed and report back to everyone else while they organize.
Celestial clusters.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:12:00 -
[420]
Originally by: Aelius Edited by: Aelius on 31/08/2011 15:53:40
Cearain, as you ask question i will ask you this.
Given a pool that you need to answer for some study:
Dear 0.0 player. You use Local more often for...
A - Smack talk after a fight.
B - As an intel to look for PVP
C - As an intel tool to escape PVP
After 1000 queries which one would have more votes? (considering 100% of the answers were true)
Originally by: Cearain
third question: The actual facts show that there are less than half pvp kills in wormholes per person than in null sec or low sec. That is the only fact we have. The rest is just anecdotal bs.
And this has nothing to do with local... well it has... if there was Local in WH the kills would be reduced to even less. What makes for such low numbers is not the absence of local, BUT the need to scan several WH's out with 15 sigs each until you find possible targets, and you may not know but scanning is both boring and time consuming. Not to mention the 0.0 BLOB WARS where several hundred ships are destroyed in 10 minutes
I really don't know the answer to your first question. I think we can all speculate.
As for the second point I think there would be more pvp in wormholes if it had local because it would be much more like low sec and null sec.
But again this is speculation. The only fact is that there is less than half the pvp per player in no local wormholes than in low sec and null sec. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:15:00 -
[421]
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Makes me wonder why that one covops that was watching that one entry gate didn't follow the fleet, discretely of course, to where the fleet headed and report back to everyone else while they organize.
Celestial clusters.
If you miss but you're still in the right area you can still use dscan to pinpoint them. If they're continually moving you're left with little choice but to wait at a gate anyhow.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:16:00 -
[422]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain
OK so you disagree that removing local will generally increase the risk of pvp?
Define risk. Do you mean the chance of PvP or the danger of engaging in PvP you were going to engage in anyhow? For the chance of PvP, it varies depending on the person. A person who's aware will have less chance in being jumped unaware simply because without local he needs to be hunted down and caught. A person less aware won't notice he's being hunted and will wind up a statistic.
Originally by: Cearain You disagree with the second assumption? Is local not a usefull tool that carebears use to avoid being ganked? If it is then removing it will if not make pve more dangerous it will at least make it more difficult right?
Removing it can make it more or less dangerous for the carebear depending on the carebear. If your blob enters a system and sees noone on dscan, that carebear ratting 30AU away has a much better chance of not being caught if the blob fails to actively check the whole system. If the blob checks properly and the carebear has learned to be aware, he still has a good chance to get away, and his heart will be poundign from the near-miss of seeing someone on dscan, warping to the station and seeing the blob on the way. If he's watching TV while mining and doesn't have a sudden group of people show up in local grabbing his attention, he's toast.
Risk = losing your ship from a pvp encounter you didn't want. Lets say eiher you were looking for pvp and ended up getting blobbed, or you were pve fit and not looking for pvp at all.
Risk would not include losing your ship to a pvp encounter you intentionally went for.
As for the second part if you are in a blob with no local don't you think someone will have a probe launcher? How long does it take to check an entire system if you have a probe launcher? -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:20:00 -
[423]
Originally by: Cearain As for the second point I think there would be more pvp in wormholes if it had local because it would be much more like low sec and null sec.
But again this is speculation. The only fact is that there is less than half the pvp per player in no local wormholes than in low sec and null sec.
You'd completely lose the "surprise!" PvP aspect... that jumping someone while they run a Sleeper site would be gone completely. You'd lose the rest simply because if someone jumped in your hole and saw they were outnumbered they'd leave, and if they jump in with a superior force you'd wait it out at your pos.
So no... local would effectively end most PvP in wormholes. Wormhole PvP is earned, actively sought and dependent on the awareness and wits of the players involved.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:21:00 -
[424]
Originally by: Cearain
As for the second part if you are in a blob with no local don't you think someone will have a probe launcher? How long does it take to check an entire system if you have a probe launcher?
If there are numerous POS in the system, and the hostile fleet is only a handful of generic ships like T1 cruisers or battlecruisers, they'll have jumped to another system by the time anyone with probes even gets ship class results from their first cluster hit.
I remember the spring before last, a hostile fleet of about half a dozen cruisers and battlecruisers entered a system and warped from safe to safe for half an hour before I even filtered out ships that were at POSs, let alone their fleet, which I would not be able to get a warp in on anyways, since they were warping to a new safe every 1-2 minutes.
People that have not tried stuff like this before have no idea, probing is good for large engagements with relatively slow moving fleets and overconfident FCs, but with smaller gangs, the chances of them staying at a safe or a single location in the system longer than a minute or two is next to none, even the noob gangs know not to do that.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:26:00 -
[425]
Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 31/08/2011 16:26:29
Originally by: Cearain
Risk = losing your ship from a pvp encounter you didn't want. Lets say eiher you were looking for pvp and ended up getting blobbed, or you were pve fit and not looking for pvp at all.
Holy crap, are you serious? You don't want there to be a risk of losing a ship you don't want to lose... in null sec? Afraid you'll spill your Shirley Temple on your skirt? I... wow. Just wow.
Originally by: Cearain
As for the second part if you are in a blob with no local don't you think someone will have a probe launcher? How long does it take to check an entire system if you have a probe launcher?
More time then it takes to see the probes on dscan and get away.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:27:00 -
[426]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 16:29:48 Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 16:28:24 thus, you make it harder for blobs to steamroll small fleets. Thank you for proving my point! This will improve small gang warfare.
Ingvar- I don't think we can really get through to this crowd.. but when the time comes, I'll enjoy ganging with other whers to collect carebear tears AND troll the blobs picking people off, AND occasionally encountering a capable organized group, since there are few WITH LOCAL :D
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:31:00 -
[427]
Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 16:33:34
Originally by: Spumantii thus, you make it harder for blobs to steamroll small fleets. Thank you for proving my point! This will improve small gang warfare.
Small gang warfare will be like The Pit And The Pendulum if they remove local without adding something better in its place. The only difference being the pendulum is a needle in a haystack and the chances of you all inadvertently meeting at the same location in space AND fighting one another is next to none.
We already know that most fleets who find themselves obviously overpowered will not engage the opposing fleet. This is exactly what we are arguing about, that local adds to this exact problem.
...so grab two small fleets, have each fleet warp to random celestials in the system again and again, tell me how long until they meet up at 0m and at almost the exact same moment before the other fleet is already aligned again to warp off before bubbles go up that prevent warpout since the other fleet has delayed exit from their warp bubbles.
Tell me.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:32:00 -
[428]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain As for the second point I think there would be more pvp in wormholes if it had local because it would be much more like low sec and null sec.
But again this is speculation. The only fact is that there is less than half the pvp per player in no local wormholes than in low sec and null sec.
You'd completely lose the "surprise!" PvP aspect... that jumping someone while they run a Sleeper site would be gone completely. You'd lose the rest simply because if someone jumped in your hole and saw they were outnumbered they'd leave, and if they jump in with a superior force you'd wait it out at your pos.
So no... local would effectively end most PvP in wormholes. Wormhole PvP is earned, actively sought and dependent on the awareness and wits of the players involved.
It might reduce the type of pvp you actually get in wormholes now. That is ganks where piloting skill makes no difference. But you would get allot more fun pvp that you see in low sec and null sec. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
|
Posted - 2011.08.31 16:36:00 -
[429]
Originally by: Cearain
It might reduce the type of pvp you actually get in wormholes now. That is ganks where piloting skill makes no difference. But you would get allot more fun pvp that you see in low sec and null sec.
No, you wouldn't. You'd effectively eliminate it. It would solely be about who has more and who runs first. Local in wormholes would kill wormhole PvP. They'd turn into carebear dens. Might as well change the black hole effects to rainbow effects. Turn those Wolf-Rayets into Bunny Lovin's.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:38:00 -
[430]
Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 16:32:28
Originally by: Spumantii thus, you make it harder for blobs to steamroll small fleets. Thank you for proving my point! This will improve small gang warfare.
Small gang warfare will be like The Pit And The Pendulum if they remove local without adding something better in its place. The only difference being the pendulum is a needle in a haystack and the chances of you all inadvertently meeting at the same location in space AND fighting one another is next to none.
We already know that most fleets who find themselves obviously overpowered will not engage the opposing fleet. This is exactly what we are arguing about, that local adds to this exact problem.
...so grab two small fleets, have each fleet warp to random celestials in the system again and again, tell me how long until they meet up at 0m and at almost the exact same moment before the other fleet is already aligned again for bubbles to go up and prevent warpout while the other fleet has delayed exit from their warp bubbles.
Tell me.
This is assuming neither fleet actually wants to engage. If you want to engage you don't need to keep running around just let them come, do things like use bait, align tricks, use snipers at less than 150, or spread your gang out to max logi range etc so only 1 gets warped in on. All it does is change pvp not remove it. Currently people don't even engage without a known numerical advantage the intel of which is instantly available. How does that increase pvp? You also are assuming that people won't max out scan skills, it's already quite easy to scan fleets down if you've got some experience and the skill to boot, not to mention scan implants etc
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:38:00 -
[431]
I get the distinct impression that a lot of the people arguing about improving small to medium gang warfare have very little real experience in it beyond gatecamping and station hugging.
That is unfortunate, hunting (and catching) small (and intelligent) hostile fleets is a fun but time consuming occupation. Anyone can camp gates, however.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:43:00 -
[432]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 16:44:15
Originally by: Mendolus I get the distinct impression that a lot of the people arguing about improving small to medium gang warfare have very little real experience in it beyond gatecamping and station hugging.
I get the distinct impression that those accustomed to large blob fleets don't know how to roll in small fleets. Just look up killboard info on some small scale pvpers. Have a look at what Dirt Nap does/did, Burn Eden, K162 and my own alliance to name just 4, and that's WITH local. We go where the targets are. If you're all in station, that's where we go.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:43:00 -
[433]
Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 16:45:47
Originally by: Spumantii You also are assuming that people won't max out scan skills, it's already quite easy to scan fleets down if you've got some experience and the skill to boot, not to mention scan implants etc
No hostile fleet worth a snot that finds itself outnumbered or overpowered and wants to avoid a fight is going to stay in a single location without aligning to another and warping the moment ships appear on the directional at range which nearly negates the possibility of entrapment on the entire fleet.
And let's face it, the chances of two nearly equally strong fleets meeting at any given time is pretty rare these days, for the exact reason you stated, everyone seeks the numerical advantage, so if you are going to roam in a particular constellation and you already know what the locals are capable of, you are going to bring MORE than enough numbers than they can muster themselves, hence you are already able to wholly expect they will not bother to fleet and respond when they take note of you.
Originally by: Spumantii
Originally by: Mendolus I get the distinct impression that a lot of the people arguing about improving small to medium gang warfare have very little real experience in it beyond gatecamping and station hugging.
I get the distinct impression that those accustomed to large blob fleets don't know how to roll in small fleets. Just look up killboard info on some small scale pvpers. Have a look at what Dirt Nap does/did, Burn Eden, K162 and my own alliance to name just 4, and that's WITH local.
You're are suggesting I have participated in large roaming (+50) fleets more often than not? That's amusing.
One of the roams I went on a week or two ago was just myself in an Onyx and my buddy in an Arbitrator and we STILL could not catch a Pilgrim because they did not want to chance it, even knowing exactly what system they were in at all times in order to attempt baiting them with the Arbitrator. They ran.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Shadowsword
The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:46:00 -
[434]
All the anti-local arguments about being prepared, having scout, and so on, are fail because of just two words: Black Ops. There is no realist defense against cloacked gangs without a tool giving you at least a clue of enemy presence.
And don't even bother trying to compare null-sec with wormhole space. WH aren't visited nearly as much as most 0.0 systems, and that change everything. ------------------------------------------
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:46:00 -
[435]
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Spumantii You also are assuming that people won't max out scan skills, it's already quite easy to scan fleets down if you've got some experience and the skill to boot, not to mention scan implants etc
No hostile fleet worth a snot that finds itself outnumbered or overpowered and wants to avoid a fight is going to stay in a single location without aligning to another and warping the moment ships appear on the directional at range which nearly negates the possibility of entrapment on the entire fleet.
And let's face it, the chances of two nearly equally strong fleets meeting at any given time is pretty rare these days, for the exact reason you stated, everyone seeks the numerical advantage, so if you are going to roam in a particular constellation and you already know what the locals are capable of, you are going to bring MORE than enough numbers than they can muster themselves, hence you are already able to wholly expect they will not bother to fleet and respond when they take note of you.
ok, and the lack of local does nothing but help us move around and kill stragglers, engage partial fleets, and move before the draek blob can find us. Small fleets move fast, big fleets move slow. Advantage: small gang.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:50:00 -
[436]
Originally by: Shadowsword All the anti-local arguments about being prepared, having scout, and so on, are fail because of just two words: Black Ops. There is no realist defense against cloacked gangs without a tool giving you at least a clue of enemy presence.
That tool is called a scout watching the in gate when the cloakies enter system. This has already been stated multiple times. FYI, this is exaclty what BOps were designed for and the reason they are NOT used enough is due to the local chat.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:52:00 -
[437]
Originally by: Spumantii ok, and the lack of local does nothing but help us move around and kill stragglers, engage partial fleets, and move before the draek blob can find us. Small fleets move fast, big fleets move slow. Advantage: small gang.
LOL good luck with that.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:52:00 -
[438]
Originally by: Mendolus They ran.
Because they saw you in local
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 16:55:00 -
[439]
Originally by: Mendolus
LOL good luck with that.
I do it daily. Danger is part of fighting in null sec. Are you saying null sec residents are afraid to participate in small gang warfare? Sounds like it.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:01:00 -
[440]
Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 17:05:05 Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 17:02:11
Originally by: Spumantii
Originally by: Mendolus
LOL good luck with that.
I do it daily. Danger is part of fighting in null sec. Are you saying null sec residents are afraid to participate in small gang warfare? Sounds like it.
I am saying anything that makes it more difficult to find and engage smaller fleets is obviously not going to encourage them.
Originally by: Spumantii
Originally by: Mendolus They ran.
Because they saw you in local
Uh, there were three of us in local including her, she just jumped out of the system behind her to know no one was following her and she saw us sitting there at a gate by ourselves with a bubble up and no one else in local but us, and she ran. She wanted to pick off carebears, she did not want an actual fight, and if there were no local, what are the chances she would ever have stayed to fight under those circumstances?
We were trying to bait her with a silly fleet, what are an Arbitrator and an Onyx with no propulsion gonna do against a Pilgrim? We were banking on her being a poorly skilled and inexperienced pilot (which she was) and that she would engage and lose to the Arbitrator, but she wouldn't even fight us.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:04:00 -
[441]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 17:07:07
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Spumantii
Originally by: Mendolus
LOL good luck with that.
I do it daily. Danger is part of fighting in null sec. Are you saying null sec residents are afraid to participate in small gang warfare? Sounds like it.
I am saying anything that makes it more difficult to find and engage smaller fleets is obviously not going to encourage them.
Originally by: Spumantii
Originally by: Mendolus They ran.
Because they saw you in local
Uh, there were two of us in local, she just jumped out of the system behind her to know no one was following her and she saw us sitting there at a gate by ourselves with a bubble up and no one else in local but us, and she ran. She wanted to pick off carebears, she did not want an actual fight, and if there were no local, what are the chances she would ever have stayed to fight under those circumstances?
If there were no local you would have caught her on the out-gate with bubble and drones out, she would not see you until already in warp if the system is wider than 14 AU.
Small fleets are designed for fast movement. Build a trap. You don't need to gatecamp, come on be more creative! Simply a matter of adapting and breaking old habits. There are multiple ways to get kills.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:18:00 -
[442]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 17:20:02 how to catch a solo pilgrim with an onyx, and a frig: bubble up on gatefire, frig goes for decloak. Win!
Add arby drones for decloak effect.
put cloak on onyx and cloak next to hulk in belt. Arazu long point on grid. pilgrim decloaks to engage. Hulk drones prevent target recloak, onyx and raz decloak, bubble goes up, long point goes on, boom, kill. Otherwise, target runs. Add dramiel if you have to.
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:18:00 -
[443]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain
It might reduce the type of pvp you actually get in wormholes now. That is ganks where piloting skill makes no difference. But you would get allot more fun pvp that you see in low sec and null sec.
No, you wouldn't. You'd effectively eliminate it. It would solely be about who has more and who runs first. Local in wormholes would kill wormhole PvP. They'd turn into carebear dens. Might as well change the black hole effects to rainbow effects. Turn those Wolf-Rayets into Bunny Lovin's.
Except we know that low sec and null sec have local and much more pvp. Probably not as much pvp against mining barges or destroyers with the high slots filled with salvagers, but overall more pvp.
-Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:19:00 -
[444]
Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 17:26:01 Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 17:22:14
Originally by: Spumantii
If there were no local you would have caught her on the out-gate with bubble and drones out, she would not see you until already in warp if the system is wider than 14 AU.
Small fleets are designed for fast movement. Build a trap. You don't need to gatecamp, come on be more creative!
Don't worry about it, you don't get it.
Originally by: Spumantii how to catch a solo pilgrim with an onyx, and a frig: bubble up on gatefire, frig goes for decloak. Win!
Add arby drones for decloak effect.
put cloak on onyx and cloak next to hulk in belt. Arazu long point on grid. pilgrim decloaks to engage. onyx and raz decloak, bubble goes up, long point goes on, boom, kill. Otherwise, target runs. Add dramiel if you have to.
Right, we were two guys, in a system with three outbounds, trying to catch a cloaking Pilgrim that did not want to fight anything but ratters, are you serious? Why when I tell you it was just the two of us do you start talking about gangs of 5-6? It was two people, without local she would never have known it was just us, and without us sitting there in her face, she would never have known we were in a silly fleet, and with three outbounds, you are telling me we should have put a dropout at one and just prayed she warped to it? ... WOW.
Originally by: Spumantii
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Spumantii
If there were no local you would have caught her on the out-gate with bubble and drones out, she would not see you until already in warp if the system is wider than 14 AU.
Small fleets are designed for fast movement. Build a trap. You don't need to gatecamp, come on be more creative!
Don't worry about it, you don't get it.
Apparently not. nothing can stop a pilgrim, you might as well log, since that one guy is going to bring your entire constellation to it's knees. Sad.
I never said that, I said removing local guarantees people exactly like her will rarely get caught, who the **** is going to even know she's there unless you camp the gates 23/7 to see her come through, just like a wormhole, only the entrance/exits are like swiss cheese and anyone can move in and out of them at will with 0 delay beyond warp and session timer itself, moment you spook her she moves over 2-3 systems in a random direction of a couple dozen possible plotted paths, and without eyes on every single gate on every single possible pathway, you are screwed. You'll spend the next hour scanning systems for a cloaking ship that doesn't show up on scans anyways, and with no local, wtf is the point?
I spend enough time chasing ghosts as it is, without having 0 ways to know where anyone is at any time without covering frickin' every gate from here to China.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:21:00 -
[445]
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Spumantii
If there were no local you would have caught her on the out-gate with bubble and drones out, she would not see you until already in warp if the system is wider than 14 AU.
Small fleets are designed for fast movement. Build a trap. You don't need to gatecamp, come on be more creative!
Don't worry about it, you don't get it.
Apparently not. nothing can stop a pilgrim, you might as well log, since that one guy is going to bring your entire constellation to it's knees. Sad.
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Smabs
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:21:00 -
[446]
Removing local would only be good for cloaky gangs and ganks. And even then it'd only take a few weeks for nullsec to cull almost all carebears and solo/very small gang pvp'ers. There would be nothing left but big fleets and hotdrops.
Plus it's hard enough to get fights already. At least I can tentatively engage stuff now and run off if local starts spiking, or I can just not bother with it if I see someone's falcon or cyno alt hanging around in local. There's no way I'd even bother roaming by myself if I couldn't even make and educated guess at how hard I'm about to get blobbed.
Pretty much all fighting would occur on choke point gates as well. If there's no local the only realistic way to find fights would be to scout and follow gangs running through pipes.
Here's a scenario that happens quite often; A couple of people roam through nullsec and start a fight, but local spikes hard and they have to retreat. It's obvious that there's no way out of the system without getting ganked so they wait out fifteen minutes and just log off. Without local the defense gang would be wandering around probing for an hour in the search for ships that don't even exist.
Replacing local with a more effective scanner and map might be cool, though.
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:23:00 -
[447]
Originally by: Cearain
Except we know that low sec and null sec have local and much more blobbing. Probably not as much blobbing against mining barges or destroyers with the high slots filled with salvagers, but overall more blobbing.
corrected for you
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:26:00 -
[448]
Originally by: Spumantii
Originally by: Cearain
Except we know that low sec and null sec have local and much more blobbing. Probably not as much blobbing against mining barges or destroyers with the high slots filled with salvagers, but overall more blobbing.
corrected for you
I doubt that low sec has more blobbing than wormholes. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:26:00 -
[449]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 17:27:19
Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 17:22:14
Originally by: Spumantii
If there were no local you would have caught her on the out-gate with bubble and drones out, she would not see you until already in warp if the system is wider than 14 AU.
Small fleets are designed for fast movement. Build a trap. You don't need to gatecamp, come on be more creative!
Don't worry about it, you don't get it.
Originally by: Spumantii how to catch a solo pilgrim with an onyx, and a frig: bubble up on gatefire, frig goes for decloak. Win!
Add arby drones for decloak effect.
put cloak on onyx and cloak next to hulk in belt. Arazu long point on grid. pilgrim decloaks to engage. onyx and raz decloak, bubble goes up, long point goes on, boom, kill. Otherwise, target runs. Add dramiel if you have to.
Right, we were two guys, in a system with three outbounds, trying to catch a cloaking Pilgrim that did not want to fight anything but ratters, are you serious? Why when I tell you it was just the two of us do you start talking about gangs of 5-6? It was two people, without local she would never have known it was just us, and without us sitting there in her face, she would never have known we were in a silly fleet, and with three outbounds, you are telling me we should have put a dropout at one and just prayed she warped to it? ... WOW.
In case you missed it, that plan involves 2-3 pilots. If you have targets carebearing, and you are short on pilots get them the f*** out of their ratting ships to help you then. Otherwise, use your numbers to prevent a solo tackle. Or is it so hard to get the ratters to help? There is your problem. How bad do you want to get rid of this solo guy?
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:31:00 -
[450]
Edited by: Mendolus on 31/08/2011 17:31:57
Originally by: Spumantii
In case you missed it, that plan involves 2-3 pilots. If you have targets carebearing, and you are short on pilots get them the f*** out of their ratting ships to help you then. Otherwise, use your numbers to prevent a solo tackle. Or is it so hard to get the ratters to help? There is your problem. How bad do you want to get rid of this solo guy?
Are you arguing that I am trying to kill solo PvP while at the same time arguing that I should not be able to PvP without having extra dudes on my side simply because a game mechanic that would require it?
/facepalm
This conversation is over for me.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
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Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:31:00 -
[451]
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Spumantii
Originally by: Cearain
Except we know that low sec and null sec have local and much more blobbing. Probably not as much blobbing against mining barges or destroyers with the high slots filled with salvagers, but overall more blobbing.
corrected for you
I doubt that low sec has more blobbing than wormholes.
I have lived in wh for 3 years with breaks and I can tell you blobbing does not exist in whs that don't have hi sec statics.
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:32:00 -
[452]
Originally by: Cearain
Except we know that low sec and null sec have local and much more pvp. Probably not as much pvp against mining barges or destroyers with the high slots filled with salvagers, but overall more pvp.
Local's not the reason there's more pvp. Gates are. You want to fly through five or six systems looking for action, you go. Try to fly through five or six wormholes. How long's that going to take you?
Trying to credit local for something it actually discourages is disingenuous at best. Easy travel is why the population is so much larger, and the reason why PvP per person is higher.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Spumantii
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Posted - 2011.08.31 17:34:00 -
[453]
Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 17:37:36
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Spumantii
In case you missed it, that plan involves 2-3 pilots. If you have targets carebearing, and you are short on pilots get them the f*** out of their ratting ships to help you then. Otherwise, use your numbers to prevent a solo tackle. Or is it so hard to get the ratters to help? There is your problem. How bad do you want to get rid of this solo guy?
Are you arguing that I am trying to kill solo PvP while at the same time arguing that I should not be able to PvP without having extra dudes on my side simply because a game mechanic that would require it?
/facepalm
no, but removing local makes no difference. You almost always need 2-3 to get rid of a solo cloaky unless you get a lucky point/the target doesn't run fast enough, local or not it makes no difference. How is it you people are so fixed in your ways you fail to see an obvious alternative to the most uncreative possible option?
Even better: a single dramiel at a bubble with decloaking cans out, at your proclaimed single way in. Done. Bait trap. Done. I won't suggest it doesn't take any effort, but how does local make a difference in this case? If she's such a pain in the ass then isn't a tiny bit of effort worth your time?
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Aelius
Caldari Mnemonic Enterprises Dark Matter Coalition
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Posted - 2011.08.31 18:55:00 -
[454]
Edited by: Aelius on 31/08/2011 18:57:34
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain
Except we know that low sec and null sec have local and much more pvp. Probably not as much pvp against mining barges or destroyers with the high slots filled with salvagers, but overall more pvp.
Local's not the reason there's more pvp. Gates are. You want to fly through five or six systems looking for action, you go. Try to fly through five or six wormholes. How long's that going to take you?
Trying to credit local for something it actually discourages is disingenuous at best. Easy travel is why the population is so much larger, and the reason why PvP per person is higher.
Don't bother trying to explain that to him... It's because of the absence local. There. Happy?! Theres no such thing as PVP in WH. Happy?! All bow to LOCAL and it's "All seeing eye"... Amen
PS: i give up trying to explain this to the "seekers of PVP through Local" (lies, what they want is to avoid it), and this is my last post in this thread. To the supporters of a null without local you can contact me if you seek to take action, lets say in a CSM candidacy.
___________________________________________ Hilmar in his childhood Please ensure your signature is within the allowed size of 400 x 120 pixels with a maximum file size of 24,000 bytes. Navigator |
Linear Apocolypse
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Posted - 2011.08.31 19:37:00 -
[455]
As someone who who supports the change to local my main concern is this:
I have a main in 0.0 and a mission running alt. Already I make far more isk/hr in my mission running alt than I do belt/anomaly ratting in 0.0 with my main. I could increase my isk/hour if I ran plexes or grouped up for incursions in 0.0, but that requires an input of effort and organization that would most likely reduce my total isk/hour as I ran around looking for a group.
I earn about 40 mil isk/hour running high sec missions, and that is pretty non-optimized (I'm running misisons in a domi for heavens sake). Once I skillup to a Tengu that amount will increase. Currently I make literally half as much running anomalies in a Drake, have to put up with jamming rats, and also my isk earning time is often interrupted by warpouts if hostiles appear in local.
I don't mind this, but they really need to either buff individual 0.0 income substantially or reduce high-sec income substantially or most folks are just going to do the calculus and run hihgsec alts to fund their lo-sec pvp (perhaps CCP is counting on this). Getting rid of local will just exacerbate this problem.
Make it so a halfway decent skilled person in a Drake can earn around 60 mil an hour doing average activities and you will see a much greater economic incentive for folks to base out of 0.0.
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Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.09.01 07:43:00 -
[456]
Originally by: Linear Apocolypse As someone who who supports the change to local my main concern is this:
I have a main in 0.0 and a mission running alt. Already I make far more isk/hr in my mission running alt than I do belt/anomaly ratting in 0.0 with my main. I could increase my isk/hour if I ran plexes or grouped up for incursions in 0.0, but that requires an input of effort and organization that would most likely reduce my total isk/hour as I ran around looking for a group.
I earn about 40 mil isk/hour running high sec missions, and that is pretty non-optimized (I'm running misisons in a domi for heavens sake). Once I skillup to a Tengu that amount will increase. Currently I make literally half as much running anomalies in a Drake, have to put up with jamming rats, and also my isk earning time is often interrupted by warpouts if hostiles appear in local.
I don't mind this, but they really need to either buff individual 0.0 income substantially or reduce high-sec income substantially or most folks are just going to do the calculus and run hihgsec alts to fund their lo-sec pvp (perhaps CCP is counting on this). Getting rid of local will just exacerbate this problem.
Make it so a halfway decent skilled person in a Drake can earn around 60 mil an hour doing average activities and you will see a much greater economic incentive for folks to base out of 0.0.
As I've said before if they get rid of local I'm quite happy for 0.0 to recieve a rat bounty boost to counter the fact that it's actually now dangerous to fly in 0.0. Personally I would like to see high-sec rat bounties lowered slighty due to the semi safety that mission runners have and 0.0 highered due to the fact they will actually have to scan/work progressively to earn their money.
My real problem with 0.0 is the fact (and I've done this many times in a lowly frigate) it's fairly easy to do 60 jumps all around 0.0 in relative safety, I mean you jump in whats the first thing you check....yep local,
Nothing in here lets move to the next one, without local this then changes completely.
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Kity Kity
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Posted - 2011.09.01 08:10:00 -
[457]
Originally by: Aelius
It's a STEALTH bomber Pretty much a glass cannon, if you ratting in a BS i doubt 1 stealth bomber will kill you.
1 single stealth bomber has a high chance of killing a PVE engaged pilot. there are many killmails with it, if the Stealth bomber knows what he's doing. one big factor is that the battleship takes a long time to lock the stealth bomber.
it can also stay there for days, until rater goes for belt to rat and deploy a cover cyno. i know this for experience ... i was flying the stealth bomber ;)
not having local wile enable the stealth bomber to simply camp a belt until someone passes there and then he strikes, without any possibility what so ever of counter that.
removing "local" will create so much more problems and give a lot more work without really need.
such demands of removing local can only come from people that don't really live in null sec and want it to be a place where they can gank people that live there, easier.
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Kity Kity
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Posted - 2011.09.01 08:16:00 -
[458]
Originally by: Spumantii Edited by: Spumantii on 31/08/2011 15:45:03
Originally by: Cearain
Oh I see the wormhole players are more intelligent and skilled than null sec players. Like I said the fact is there is less than half the pvp in wormholes per player than low sec and null sec the rest is just speculation and BS.
Apparently they are, given that apparently, null sec residents require local to do their fighting. WHers are in WH space for different reasons, and yes, there are fewer idiots- they don't last long, and generally there is far less traffic. Also, there are far fewer people *living* in wormhole space, so the fighting statistics, when it happens, should be based on time spent in system- I guarantee you if you divide your numbers by minutes spent in systems it will show that when people are active pvp is just as common in wh as elsewhere.
I have lived everywhere in this game and I can say the majority of residents in null are inept and can't do anything without someone telling them what to do. Without local you introduce player responsibility and accountability for their own safety when not in a 1000 man drake fleet, which requires a TOTAL of 1 brain to manage.
As for dual boxing, try having your dual in a cov ops, it's actually easy. Like I said before, removing immediate mode in null rewards the organized and punishes the stupid. The way it should be.
so, basicly, because ther's people that don't know how to fly smart in null sec, you want conditions to push them out ? and then what ? someone else want to create conditions that they have to live in null sec ? so basic where are they going ? and way can't be stupid people in null sec ? it helps create a target rich environment. then people start wining there's not enough people in null sec to pvp. are you discriminating that stupid people should not be in null sec ?
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Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.09.01 08:30:00 -
[459]
Edited by: Signal11th on 01/09/2011 08:34:16 Edited by: Signal11th on 01/09/2011 08:31:00
Originally by: Kity Kity
Originally by: Aelius
It's a STEALTH bomber Pretty much a glass cannon, if you ratting in a BS i doubt 1 stealth bomber will kill you.
1such demands of removing local can only come from people that really live in null sec and want it to be a place where they can rat there, easier.
Fixed that quote for you.
Humm I've lived in 0.0 for the last 2 years have taken a 2 week break and I'm heading back there....obviously I haven't got a clue about 0.0
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.09.01 13:03:00 -
[460]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain
Except we know that low sec and null sec have local and much more pvp. Probably not as much pvp against mining barges or destroyers with the high slots filled with salvagers, but overall more pvp.
Local's not the reason there's more pvp. Gates are. You want to fly through five or six systems looking for action, you go. Try to fly through five or six wormholes. How long's that going to take you?
Trying to credit local for something it actually discourages is disingenuous at best. Easy travel is why the population is so much larger, and the reason why PvP per person is higher.
There are allot of wormhole systems spread throughout New eden.
If no local made wormholes such a great place for pvp then people would be jumping into them and pvping.
It is not happening. That is not happening because Wormholes aren't a great place for pvp. They are good for ganking pvers or industrials but thats about it.
When you get some pvp experience you will see that local helps you identify if you can get a good fight in a system or if you are just going to get blobbed if you engage. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
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Cearain
Caldari The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
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Posted - 2011.09.01 13:09:00 -
[461]
Originally by: Smabs Removing local would only be good for cloaky gangs and ganks. And even then it'd only take a few weeks for nullsec to cull almost all carebears and solo/very small gang pvp'ers. There would be nothing left but big fleets and hotdrops.
Plus it's hard enough to get fights already. At least I can tentatively engage stuff now and run off if local starts spiking, or I can just not bother with it if I see someone's falcon or cyno alt hanging around in local. There's no way I'd even bother roaming by myself if I couldn't even make and educated guess at how hard I'm about to get blobbed.
Pretty much all fighting would occur on choke point gates as well. If there's no local the only realistic way to find fights would be to scout and follow gangs running through pipes.
Here's a scenario that happens quite often; A couple of people roam through nullsec and start a fight, but local spikes hard and they have to retreat. It's obvious that there's no way out of the system without getting ganked so they wait out fifteen minutes and just log off. Without local the defense gang would be wandering around probing for an hour in the search for ships that don't even exist.
Replacing local with a more effective scanner and map might be cool, though.
Thanks for posting.
You're of course right. Although as far as a new scanner replacing local - keep in mind that when the scanner picks someone up they will already be in warp to you. That might be significantly less time to escape the blob.
Unfortunately people like yourself who do allot of solo and small gang pvp will have their voices drowned out in this thread. Wormhole carebears and others who rarely do any solo or small gang pvp against anything other than industrials and pve ships are just loving this idea. -Cearain
Make fw pvp not pve http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1329906&page=1 |
Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.09.01 13:15:00 -
[462]
Originally by: Cearain
There are allot of wormhole systems spread throughout New eden.
If no local made wormholes such a great place for pvp then people would be jumping into them and pvping.
It is not happening. That is not happening because Wormholes aren't a great place for pvp. They are good for ganking pvers or industrials but thats about it.
Actually, you're lying. It does happen, and quite often. You'll find many times when you finally get that nice hole into high sec you come back and someone from high is camped inside the hole for that very reason, quick, no rules PvP. The reason it's not statistically as prevalent is simply due to logistics. If you want to do this, you first need to take the time to scan a hole down. The system you're in in empire may or may not have a hole, and that hole may be in various states. If a hole's EoL, for example, you're not going to go in there looking for a fight when there's a higher risk of the door home closing behind you. You can also get in and find no one home, in which case it's not as simple as taking the next gate to the next system... you need to jump back to high, go to another system in your scanner, then scan down another hole, hope you find one, hope it's in good shape, then jump in and hope you find someone home. Also, many of the "allot of owrmhole systems" that you're referring to don't have holes into empire at all, or often their holes are opening into areas with very low population density. Holes that open into deep low or null tend to be visited less simply because no one's looking for them. So please, quit making crap up about wormholes. It's clear to anyone that the logistics of trying to do a wormhole roam makes it tremendously more difficult and simply hopping gate to gate through low or null.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Shadowsword
The Rough Riders Ares Protectiva
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Posted - 2011.09.01 13:26:00 -
[463]
Originally by: Signal11th As I've said before if they get rid of local I'm quite happy for 0.0 to recieve a rat bounty boost to counter the fact that it's actually now dangerous to fly in 0.0.
I'd like to see an increase in active 0.0 income as well (and a decrease to passive income aka moon-goo). my only concerns on that point would be the buff to botting, and a possible inflation on the economy.
Quote:
Personally I would like to see high-sec rat bounties lowered slighty due to the semi safety that mission runners have...
High-sec rat bounties are already significantly lower than those of the same npcs in null-sec, and their loot has recently been nerfed to utter crap, not even worth picking up. Loot ten bs wrecks, and you get maybe 10 scrap metal, 1 large meta gun refining for half of T1, and a dozen random cap mods/web/whatever with negligible value. That is quite enough nerfing. ------------------------------------------
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.09.01 13:51:00 -
[464]
Edited by: Mendolus on 01/09/2011 13:51:24
Anyone arguing that CCP is going to remove local from 0.0 without putting something else in its place and that this would somehow be sooooooooo much better for the game, esp. given that CCP has already made it clear that this is not what they are doing, are like the same people who come here, month after month, year after year, claiming CCP should remove all high sec and turn the entire game into 0.0 space.
Guess what, never gonna happen.
Get over it.
CCP is just going to entire remove local from 0.0 after eight years, without putting additional features into the game that mimic the function players use local for now because they want it that way, whether local was intended for that function at its inception or not?
RIGHT, keep dreaming, you'll be in the same lot as the ones clamoring for high sec removal, bunch of pipe dreams and bridges with no destination.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.09.01 13:59:00 -
[465]
Edited by: Signal11th on 01/09/2011 14:02:04
Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 01/09/2011 13:51:24
Anyone arguing that CCP is going to remove local from 0.0 without putting something else in its place and that this would somehow be sooooooooo much better for the game, esp. given that CCP has already made it clear that this is not what they are doing, are like the same people who come here, month after month, year after year, claiming CCP should remove all high sec and turn the entire game into 0.0 space.
Guess what, never gonna happen.
Get over it.
CCP is just going to entire remove local from 0.0 after eight years, without putting additional features into the game that mimic the function players use local for now because they want it that way, whether local was intended for that function at its inception or not?
RIGHT, keep dreaming, you'll be in the same lot as the ones clamoring for high sec removal, bunch of pipe dreams and bridges with no destination.
err I don't think anyone on this thread has said they want local removed period. It would be stupid to expect local to go completely and have nothing else in return. I would have thought that was a given but obviously I was wrong.
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Miss Rabblt
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Posted - 2011.09.01 14:09:00 -
[466]
Originally by: Spumantii
Originally by: Kity Kity
... so, some that are keeping eyes in local could use it to see when a cloacky enters system or to look for friendly. and cloacky pawats could disable it to feel more challenged. it would be like playing in higher difficulty level.
so everywone would be happy.
You are an idiot. You certainly talk like you know what you're talking about
finally fully agree everyone who think that "pvpers" like challenge is an idiot just read posts from active ones. Where can you find "challenge, skills, experience"? You can see only "MOAR kills!!!!"
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.09.01 14:11:00 -
[467]
Originally by: Signal11th
Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 01/09/2011 13:51:24
Anyone arguing that CCP is going to remove local from 0.0 without putting something else in its place and that this would somehow be sooooooooo much better for the game, esp. given that CCP has already made it clear that this is not what they are doing, are like the same people who come here, month after month, year after year, claiming CCP should remove all high sec and turn the entire game into 0.0 space.
Guess what, never gonna happen.
Get over it.
CCP is just going to entire remove local from 0.0 after eight years, without putting additional features into the game that mimic the function players use local for now because they want it that way, whether local was intended for that function at its inception or not?
RIGHT, keep dreaming, you'll be in the same lot as the ones clamoring for high sec removal, bunch of pipe dreams and bridges with no destination.
err I don't think anyone on this thread has said they want local removed period. It would be stupid to expect local to go completely and have nothing else in return. I would have thought that was a given but obviously I was wrong.
The argument is that local serves a basic function for the player base, whether it was intended functionality or not, it simply lets people know hostiles have entered the system, no one with half a fart in their head engages a hostile fleet without knowing the fleet composition and possible numbers they are dealing with.
Some are arguing that removing this basic function from 0.0 will be better for the game. Removing that function, I see no mention of removing it from local, and adding it to another mechanic. They are arguing that the function of getting cursory information from the local window itself should be removed entirely, ergo even if other features are added to the game, that function itself should be removed.
That function. Removed. Is what they are saying is best. Is this not what so many people have been arguing about... for sixteen pages...
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.09.01 14:22:00 -
[468]
Edited by: Mendolus on 01/09/2011 14:24:13
Originally by: Miss Rabblt ...
So basically, challenge to you means more grinding scan probes or sitting cloaked at gates for hours just to have the hope of finding someone to fight on top of the fleets so rarely engage you as it is if you even remotely outnumber them?
I had a buddy that sat in an empty wormhole for a week after losing his probing ship, hoping someone would have mercy on him and give him an exit to normal space, before someone finally found him in the depths and instead relieved him of his battleship and pod. I do not want that <<< for my EVE, **** that.
I had enough grinding in Warcraft, saw enough of it in Aion to unsub after two weeks, and could smell it in Rift enough that I was turned away from the game, do not tell me EVE needs more grinding, **** that, EVE needs better ways to get a fight, not more grinding hoping for a fight.
Removing local won't change the fact that your average fleet in 0.0 will not engage unless they have a clear expectation of victory, it'll only guarantee that is the first choice they make when they so much as sniff another fleet in their vicinity.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.09.01 14:27:00 -
[469]
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Signal11th
Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 01/09/2011 13:51:24
Anyone arguing that CCP is going to remove local from 0.0 without putting something else in its place and that this would somehow be sooooooooo much better for the game, esp. given that CCP has already made it clear that this is not what they are doing, are like the same people who come here, month after month, year after year, claiming CCP should remove all high sec and turn the entire game into 0.0 space.
Guess what, never gonna happen.
Get over it.
CCP is just going to entire remove local from 0.0 after eight years, without putting additional features into the game that mimic the function players use local for now because they want it that way, whether local was intended for that function at its inception or not?
RIGHT, keep dreaming, you'll be in the same lot as the ones clamoring for high sec removal, bunch of pipe dreams and bridges with no destination.
err I don't think anyone on this thread has said they want local removed period. It would be stupid to expect local to go completely and have nothing else in return. I would have thought that was a given but obviously I was wrong.
The argument is that local serves a basic function for the player base, whether it was intended functionality or not, it simply lets people know hostiles have entered the system, no one with half a fart in their head engages a hostile fleet without knowing the fleet composition and possible numbers they are dealing with.
Some are arguing that removing this basic function from 0.0 will be better for the game. Removing that function, I see no mention of removing it from local, and adding it to another mechanic. They are arguing that the function of getting cursory information from the local window itself should be removed entirely, ergo even if other features are added to the game, that function itself should be removed.
That function. Removed. Is what they are saying is best. Is this not what so many people have been arguing about... for sixteen pages...
Yes but you shouldn't get that information from a part of eve that was never intended for you to get that information from, It's more of a by product of high-sec that wasn't thought about before the 0.0 was implemented. Local is for chatting not getting fleet compostion information from. This should be gotten either through spying/scouting or scanning.
So what players (and theres no numbers to suggest you're in the majority or am I) want it that way?? I wanted carriers to still go through jumpbridges and before that I didn't even want jumpbridges but guess what it got changed.
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Signal11th
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Posted - 2011.09.01 14:34:00 -
[470]
Edited by: Signal11th on 01/09/2011 14:36:33
Originally by: Mendolus Edited by: Mendolus on 01/09/2011 14:24:13
Originally by: Miss Rabblt ...
So basically, challenge to you means more grinding scan probes or sitting cloaked at gates for hours just to have the hope of finding someone to fight on top of the fleets so rarely engage you as it is if you even remotely outnumber them?
I had a buddy that sat in an empty wormhole for a week after losing his probing ship, hoping someone would have mercy on him and give him an exit to normal space, before someone finally found him in the depths and instead relieved him of his battleship and pod. I do not want that <<< for my EVE, **** that.
I had enough grinding in Warcraft, saw enough of it in Aion to unsub after two weeks, and could smell it in Rift enough that I was turned away from the game, do not tell me EVE needs more grinding, **** that, EVE needs better ways to get a fight, not more grinding hoping for a fight.
Removing local won't change the fact that your average fleet in 0.0 will not engage unless they have a clear expectation of victory, it'll only guarantee that is the first choice they make when they so much as sniff another fleet in their vicinity.
You don't obviously listen do you?
As I've said many many many many times before remove local only when other tools are made available.
Your mate got lost in a WH? What the hell does that have to do with removing local? The clown should have just podded himself like anyone would have done.
As with myself you offer no proof only opinions, Until you actually change something you'll never know whether or not its for the best or for the worst but keeping things the same always leads to collapse.
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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
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Posted - 2011.09.01 14:37:00 -
[471]
Originally by: Signal11th ...
I want less grinding, not more grinding, period. As noted by the OP, the issue is not making fights take more time to find than they already do, because it already takes too long to get into a decent fight.
__________________________________________________ ...clearly the Ishukone Watch Scorpion is the fifth horseman of the apocalypse, i.e. The Brown Rider, otherwise known as Poopie. |
Miss Rabblt
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Posted - 2011.09.01 15:18:00 -
[472]
Originally by: Kity Kity
Originally by: Spumantii
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so, basicly, because ther's people that don't know how to fly smart in null sec, you want conditions to push them out ? and then what ?
and then... nothing. Spumantii said many times that he is leaving Eve. His subscription should be out already but i'm not sure. So he doesn't need any people in Eve at all
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