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Bongo Debbie
Minmatar In Praise Of Shadows
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:22:00 -
[1]
This is a no brainer really.
CCP have made an arbitrary decision to move ALL Ice mining out to 0.0 space, which is inaccessible to the 80% (or so) of people that choose to live in Empire where they are free from griefing.
The ramifications are huge. People that choose to live out of POS in an effort to avoid use of stations wherever possible, due to the pointless changes of Incarna and the poisonous addition of RMT in the NEX store (which is the only reason to have a station environment in the first place), will be getting the shaft. These people will not be able to reasonably afford to operate out of POS and inevitably will be forced back into using stations.
It is my belief that this is little more than a cash grab attempt by CCP to get more people using the highly unpopular station environments. ~~~
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Alina Wize
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:26:00 -
[2]
Originally by: Bongo Debbie This is a no brainer really.
CCP have made an arbitrary decision to move ALL Ice mining out to 0.0 space, which is inaccessible to the 80% (or so) of people that choose to live in Empire where they are free from griefing.
The ramifications are huge. People that choose to live out of POS in an effort to avoid use of stations wherever possible, due to the pointless changes of Incarna and the poisonous addition of RMT in the NEX store (which is the only reason to have a station environment in the first place), will be getting the shaft. These people will not be able to reasonably afford to operate out of POS and inevitably will be forced back into using stations.
It is my belief that this is little more than a cash grab attempt by CCP to get more people using the highly unpopular station environments.
Can you explain how Ice Mining is tied to the NeX store? If you can't have your bots mine ice in high sec why don't you just move them to a belt and grab ore instead?
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Aaron Aardvark
Amarr
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:30:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Alina Wize
Originally by: Bongo Debbie This is a no brainer really.
CCP have made an arbitrary decision to move ALL Ice mining out to 0.0 space, which is inaccessible to the 80% (or so) of people that choose to live in Empire where they are free from griefing.
The ramifications are huge. People that choose to live out of POS in an effort to avoid use of stations wherever possible, due to the pointless changes of Incarna and the poisonous addition of RMT in the NEX store (which is the only reason to have a station environment in the first place), will be getting the shaft. These people will not be able to reasonably afford to operate out of POS and inevitably will be forced back into using stations.
It is my belief that this is little more than a cash grab attempt by CCP to get more people using the highly unpopular station environments.
Can you explain how Ice Mining is tied to the NeX store? If you can't have your bots mine ice in high sec why don't you just move them to a belt and grab ore instead?
Why are you pretending to be so dumb?
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Forum Worrier
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:30:00 -
[4]
Originally by: Bongo Debbie This is no brain.
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Haulin Aussie
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:31:00 -
[5]
removal of abc ores from low class WH also for this reason
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The Offerer
Minmatar
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:31:00 -
[6]
Edited by: The Offerer on 23/08/2011 10:33:37 They won't completely remove the ice. They are thinking more towards the idea of making it depletable (like asteroids are now).
edit: quote http://eve-search.com/thread/1565827/author/CCP#2
Quote: Thinking about it a bit, not sure where we're going to go. We might not change it at all, we might just make hisec belts deplete (and regen as normal) so they can roughly meet hisec demand.
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Tea Leaves
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:32:00 -
[7]
CCP won't remove it. It would take out 50% of the highsec bots in the game and then the PLEX prices would plummet and the chinese 'gold' ice farmers would DDOS the server into oblivion.
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Alina Wize
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:32:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Aaron Aardvark
Originally by: Alina Wize
Originally by: Bongo Debbie This is a no brainer really.
CCP have made an arbitrary decision to move ALL Ice mining out to 0.0 space, which is inaccessible to the 80% (or so) of people that choose to live in Empire where they are free from griefing.
The ramifications are huge. People that choose to live out of POS in an effort to avoid use of stations wherever possible, due to the pointless changes of Incarna and the poisonous addition of RMT in the NEX store (which is the only reason to have a station environment in the first place), will be getting the shaft. These people will not be able to reasonably afford to operate out of POS and inevitably will be forced back into using stations.
It is my belief that this is little more than a cash grab attempt by CCP to get more people using the highly unpopular station environments.
Can you explain how Ice Mining is tied to the NeX store? If you can't have your bots mine ice in high sec why don't you just move them to a belt and grab ore instead?
Why are you pretending to be so dumb?
Hi, maybe you can explain the connection between Ice Mining and NeX? I'm not seeing the correlation here.
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Kitty McKitty
Gallente In Praise Of Shadows
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:33:00 -
[9]
Edited by: Kitty McKitty on 23/08/2011 10:35:47
Originally by: Alina Dumb
Can you explain how Ice Mining is tied to the NeX store?
She already did but obviously you fail at reading. Regardless, looking at your post history you are a complete waste of space and if you attempt to derail or otherwise disrupt this thread I will report you.
EDIT: for clarity : Get out. ~~~
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Alina Wize
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:38:00 -
[10]
Originally by: Kitty McKitty Edited by: Kitty McKitty on 23/08/2011 10:33:27
Originally by: Alina Dumb
Can you explain how Ice Mining is tied to the NeX store?
She already did but obviously you fail at reading. Regardless, looking at your post history you are a complete waste of space and if you attempt to derail or otherwise disrupt my thread I will report you.
EDIT: for clarity : Get out.
I'm merely trying to participate in your controversial thread, I believe it's my right to be here. You have claimed that there is a connection between Ice Mining & the NeX store. I am simply trying to figure out how you came to this conclusion. I apologize for being so skeptical but I can't just flat out believe everything you say without proof. I would hope that no one else would either. For the sake of your argument and your thread, please provide the data you used to come up with your allegations.
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Kunming
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E Xenon-Empire
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:42:00 -
[11]
Despite hating NeX and CQ and everything entitled to it... your arguement seems to be far fetched.
CCP wants ppl to live in 0.0 build empires and become carebears under the protection of player empires not the other way around. POS in secure space only takes away another reason for someone to venture out into 0.0.
You can argue that you dont want to be forced to 0.0, but then again this is a game and it needs to have a golden ratio of risk vs reward, atm the majority of players hang in secure space and get almost the same rewards as someone living in 0.0 and having to defend his turf at the same time.
There are OFC serious game breaking issues like the tech-moon goo, this allows alliances to replace their members' ships, including titans, inculding fitting, (unless the alliance leaders are involved in illegal RMT). And super capitals in general.. These issues need to be addressed BEFORE removing ICE from empire. At that point I can agree to an extend.
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Malcolm Slayton
Amarr Royal Amarr Institute
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:43:00 -
[12]
Isn't ice mining useful only for POS? So what's the point in mining ice if you do not have a POS? Just to sell it in the market?
Excuse my noob question, I'm quite new ^^
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Prince Kobol
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:43:00 -
[13]
Moving Ice has nothing to do with the Nex Store but everything to do with giving null sec alliances even more control over materials and enabling to earn even more billions of isk.
Think about for a minute.. the availability of ice on the market will drop massively and the price will go through the roof.
Null sec alliances will able to control the price and the amount of Ice 100%
The number of pos's in both High and low will fall dramatically as most people will no longer be able to afford the fuel costs.
This is in turn will effect inventions, BPC copies, research and cap ship production as most of this is done in high sec with the use of pos's.
The only people who will be able to run pos's will be those corps who belong to the null sec alliances as they will be the only people able to run a large number of pos's, which in turns means the null sec alliances have even more control.
I guess that is what happens when the CSM is controlled by the null sec alliances.
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Bongo Debbie
Minmatar In Praise Of Shadows
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:48:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Malcolm Slayton Isn't ice mining useful only for POS? So what's the point in mining ice if you do not have a POS? Just to sell it in the market?
Excuse my noob question, I'm quite new ^^
No problem, thank you for asking. If you re-read my original post you will note that I am talking specifically about POS owners. If people are to be allowed POS in High security space but can only access the fuel to run these in 0.0 security space then that is unrealistic. POS are long overdue a fix and this change precedes even that, leading to a considerable (deliberate and considered) nerf to POS ownership in high-sec. This combats the people that have chosen POS live over station living in objection of the pointless update to WiS and the subsequent overheating issues and generally poor optimisation of the new expansion.
As stated it is also my belief that this ties in with the various blatant cas-grab attempts to force people into accepting and using the NEX store. TO THE OVERWHELMING DETRIMENT TO THE BALANCE OF THE ACTUAL GAME. ~~~
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Alina Wize
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:51:00 -
[15]
Originally by: Kunming atm the majority of players hang in secure space and get almost the same rewards as someone living in 0.0
Some of your assumptions may be correct but I think you're wrong thinking the Nullsec grunts are making the same isk as highsec publets. In properly run nullsec alliances the moon mining revenue goes into ship reimbursement to subsidize losses. Null has all of the risk and only some of the rewards. Most isk is made with belt ratting and systems are crowded so it isn't consistent. You can currently run level 4 missions in highsec with zero risk, we can't do that out here. A lot of our members have had to move to lowsec to make isk, running incursions. Basically, you can't make anything out here unless you have the ability to run complex's or can find a sanctum before someone else does.
The reason nullsec had a push for CSM is because we've been getting nerfed for years, while highsec has been getting buffed. Now we have threads like this complaining about ice mining, of all things...
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Alina Wize
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:53:00 -
[16]
Originally by: Bongo Debbie
Originally by: Malcolm Slayton Isn't ice mining useful only for POS? So what's the point in mining ice if you do not have a POS? Just to sell it in the market?
Excuse my noob question, I'm quite new ^^
No problem, thank you for asking. If you re-read my original post you will note that I am talking specifically about POS owners. If people are to be allowed POS in High security space but can only access the fuel to run these in 0.0 security space then that is unrealistic. POS are long overdue a fix and this change precedes even that, leading to a considerable (deliberate and considered) nerf to POS ownership in high-sec. This combats the people that have chosen POS live over station living in objection of the pointless update to WiS and the subsequent overheating issues and generally poor optimisation of the new expansion.
As stated it is also my belief that this ties in with the various blatant cas-grab attempts to force people into accepting and using the NEX store. TO THE OVERWHELMING DETRIMENT TO THE BALANCE OF THE ACTUAL GAME.
Let's say you're correct that people will move out of their POS and into a station. How does this force people to particpate in NeX? Are you aware that it is purely optional and vanity only?
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Brooks Puuntai
Minmatar Nomadic Asylum
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:57:00 -
[17]
Its for when CCP add faction tower BPCs to the NeX store. Since ice products will go up in price, it will make faction towers more lucrative.
And no I'm not serious. At least I hope not.
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Kunming
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E Xenon-Empire
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Posted - 2011.08.23 10:59:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Prince Kobol Moving Ice has nothing to do with the Nex Store but everything to do with giving null sec alliances even more control over materials and enabling to earn even more billions of isk.
Think about for a minute.. the availability of ice on the market will drop massively and the price will go through the roof.
Null sec alliances will able to control the price and the amount of Ice 100%
The number of pos's in both High and low will fall dramatically as most people will no longer be able to afford the fuel costs.
This is in turn will effect inventions, BPC copies, research and cap ship production as most of this is done in high sec with the use of pos's.
The only people who will be able to run pos's will be those corps who belong to the null sec alliances as they will be the only people able to run a large number of pos's, which in turns means the null sec alliances have even more control.
I guess that is what happens when the CSM is controlled by the null sec alliances.
Null sec alliances should be the end game. The problem here is that they have so many FREEBIES that outsiders have no chance of budging one out of its region and the ones already there dont need any conflict because of the MASSIVE FREEBIES, hence the NAP-FEST.
What freebies am I talking about?
- Super capitals: you cant compete without them and you cant build them unless you have 0.0 SOV, it becomes a catch-22 quickly.
- Jump bridge/networks: projection of power is too easy and fast, fighting guerilla style, no matter how good you are, is impossible
- Moon Goo: Especially tech-moons... Oh god, I wanna shoot the dev in the face who thought about this, ok, not literally. Before T2 production and all the moon goo stuff ppl used to work to get their ships and equipment; I used to crunch numbers day and night to make our corp battleship replacement program work. Now its all free ISK for almost ZERO EFFORD. Its also the number 1 income source to build super capitals, those requirements cant be afforded by non 0.0 dwellers.
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Bongo Debbie
Minmatar In Praise Of Shadows
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Posted - 2011.08.23 11:01:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Brooks Puuntai Its for when CCP add faction tower BPCs to the NeX store. Since ice products will go up in price, it will make faction towers more lucrative.
And no I'm not serious. At least I hope not.
Good lord, let's not give them any further ideas ~~~
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Thebriwan
LUX Uls Xystus
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Posted - 2011.08.23 11:04:00 -
[20]
OP: You can say that the removing of SOME ice products from high sec is bad. But you can not bind this to the NEX store. Because there is no connection. Regardless of your (multiple) statements.
You stated that people living in a POS will be forced to live in a station. But you failed in explaining why this is tied to the NEX store. You know that you can CQ off? You know you don't have to leave your quarter? You know you don't have to purchase anything on the NEX store?
(And just for the sake of argument: RMT was introduced with PLEX...)
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Kunming
Amarr T.H.U.G L.I.F.E Xenon-Empire
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Posted - 2011.08.23 11:13:00 -
[21]
Originally by: Alina Wize
Originally by: Kunming atm the majority of players hang in secure space and get almost the same rewards as someone living in 0.0
Some of your assumptions may be correct but I think you're wrong thinking the Nullsec grunts are making the same isk as highsec publets. In properly run nullsec alliances the moon mining revenue goes into ship reimbursement to subsidize losses. Null has all of the risk and only some of the rewards. Most isk is made with belt ratting and systems are crowded so it isn't consistent. You can currently run level 4 missions in highsec with zero risk, we can't do that out here. A lot of our members have had to move to lowsec to make isk, running incursions. Basically, you can't make anything out here unless you have the ability to run complex's or can find a sanctum before someone else does.
The reason nullsec had a push for CSM is because we've been getting nerfed for years, while highsec has been getting buffed. Now we have threads like this complaining about ice mining, of all things...
In 2003 I joined a corp and went straight to 0.0 together with them, I lived exclusively in 0.0 up until the SC blobs made the sub-cap pilot obsolete. So dont tell me about 0.0...
If your folks need to goto low sec to make ISK, well then there is something wrong in your alliance structure, since the enemy alliance next door to you doesnt have any problem replacing all losses with moon goo, so anything a pilot makes on top of that is his personal profit.
Im a strong opposer of high lvl income in risk free space known as empire (although I hore lvl4s daily now), BUT, also a strong opposer of all the "easy-mode" tools 0.0 folks got.
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Vlad Chistian
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Posted - 2011.08.23 11:15:00 -
[22]
Kindof like how Ice mining is related to the Battle of Sekigahara, it's true
The Battle of Sekigahara to Japan to Wildlife of Japan to Butterfly to The Butterfly Effect to Eve Online to Mining Guide to Ice Mining.
With enough links, you can connect anything to anything. That doesn't mean they're dependant on one another |
Delianora
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Posted - 2011.08.23 11:19:00 -
[23]
The OP is not thinking this thru...
All you need to do is have a POS fuel modifier script...
If sector status is .5 and above, then fuel costs are at 50%...
That way you can remove high sec ice AND keep all the pubbies in empire...
Furthermore, ice will also be in low sec... I know it is hard to mine there, but dark glitter is already in low sec... Back in the day, I used to mine 2 billion a month in a quiet, empty low sec system, so I know it is possible.
The more important thing is that the 0.0 crowd will be forced to mine more ice instead of anomolies...
Ice belt you can warp to and mackinaws/hulks are a lot easier to kill then macro tengus in plexes...
Furthermore, ice is a "must mine" material...
When I raid 0.0, the carebears just POS up and sit there instead of plexing...
If they have to mine ice then they cant afford to sit in their pos and NOT mine...
With the small number of ice belts per region, a dedicated gang of afk cloakers can shut down a region in a matter of weeks. This means that you force the 0.0 crowd to stop plexing and use isk to buy high sec ice.
Since they cant buy non-existant hi sec ice, and they can't mine the ice itself (you're afk cloaking), then their pos's will eventually drop.
I forsee that they will have to consolodate sov (i.e. drop the most non essential pos's first), which will free up more space for "small holdings"...
Now for those that think AFK cloaking will not stop ice mining, the best afk cloak is a hurricane cloaked about 250km off a 0.0 ice belt.
When you get back to the PC, you just warp to a roid, and suicide gank a mackinaw. It's a great ratio of isk exchange, and totally works... In the event the ice people all "run" then you just pop 20 cans of ice.
Back when bob owned delve, they would have chinese macro ice farmers for them mining with 20 macks/hulks in dead end ice systems. In that case, the prefered tactic was to log off a cheap dictor like an eris in the belts and try to kill them before the macros could warp them.
Removing ICE from hi sec is a must have for this game btw...
The game needs to "reset" back to its core principles of *hi sec--more safe, less reward *low sec (whatever that should be) *null sec (low safe, hi reward)
The current system is killing the game just as much as CCP's failed nex store stuff...
What you have now is a isk-arms race between people who carebear all day in hi sec at 30mil isk per hour versus tengu bots and people ratting in safe systems at 30mil per hour...
Now the final tweak at the ice mining can come in MANY flavors...
*ice is moved to special grav sites--in hi sec u scan them *in 0.0 sec, you have to use a "ice detection array" -------------> so now, the ice detection array costs 50 000 000 isk in sov upkeep bills AND the ice detection array takes almost ALL the cpu of a pos... -------------> thus the "ice tower" is practically defenseless
The key thing for people to understand is this--as the game "resets" then you must not panic. If everyone is making less isk, then flying battlecruisers and t1 cruisers becomes more and more viable...
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Alina Wize
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.23 11:21:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Alina Wize on 23/08/2011 11:25:31
Originally by: Kunming
Null sec alliances should be the end game. The problem here is that they have so many FREEBIES that outsiders have no chance of budging one out of its region and the ones already there dont need any conflict because of the MASSIVE FREEBIES, hence the NAP-FEST.
What freebies am I talking about?
- Super capitals: you cant compete without them and you cant build them unless you have 0.0 SOV, it becomes a catch-22 quickly.
- Jump bridge/networks: projection of power is too easy and fast, fighting guerilla style, no matter how good you are, is impossible
- Moon Goo: Especially tech-moons... Oh god, I wanna shoot the dev in the face who thought about this, ok, not literally. Before T2 production and all the moon goo stuff ppl used to work to get their ships and equipment; I used to crunch numbers day and night to make our corp battleship replacement program work. Now its all free ISK for almost ZERO EFFORD. Its also the number 1 income source to build super capitals, those requirements cant be afforded by non 0.0 dwellers.
You are very wrong in your assumptions here.
1. The Cluster**** is lacking in a suitable super capital fleet and has defended Deklein against the DRF/PL & Friends invasions. We've been forcing fights under cyno jammers and they've purely been sub-capital fights, nothing can touch our AlphaFleet (except super capital blobs)
2. Jump bridges were nerfed, we can only have one per system. This has prevented us from projecting our power from far away because we now have to use a gate or three to get to the next bridge and any of them could be camped by a Suddenly PL Supercaps cyno alt. (which has happened a few times)
3. I can't say for other alliances but our moon goo revenue goes towards sub-capital ship reimbursement programs, never any massive supercapital/capital production reasons. (TEST doesn't have very many tech moons) Here's our revenue report for those interested: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheet/ccc?authkey=CKbl8ZwI&key=0AlnyNGc6PAOwdG1LaW5EQlJ6VTNNQXZiU3haQmtZemc&hl=en_US&authkey=CKbl8ZwI#gid=2
edit: note the tabs at the bottom of the sheet
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Bongo Debbie
Minmatar In Praise Of Shadows
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Posted - 2011.08.23 11:27:00 -
[25]
Originally by: Delianora The OP is not thinking this thru...
The current system is killing the game just as much as CCP's failed nex store stuff...
This is all certainly food for thought and I thank you for making an intelligent contribution to the discussion. ~~~
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Ingvar Angst
Amarr Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
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Posted - 2011.08.23 11:31:00 -
[26]
Originally by: Bongo Debbie This is a no brainer really.
CCP have made an arbitrary decision to move ALL Ice mining out to 0.0 space, which is inaccessible to the 80% (or so) of people that choose to live in Empire where they are free from griefing.
The ramifications are huge. People that choose to live out of POS in an effort to avoid use of stations wherever possible, due to the pointless changes of Incarna and the poisonous addition of RMT in the NEX store (which is the only reason to have a station environment in the first place), will be getting the shaft. These people will not be able to reasonably afford to operate out of POS and inevitably will be forced back into using stations.
It is my belief that this is little more than a cash grab attempt by CCP to get more people using the highly unpopular station environments.
Two words for your... wormholes.
Monocles are so two weeks ago.
Sparkle ships are the future! |
Alina Wize
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
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Posted - 2011.08.23 11:35:00 -
[27]
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Bongo Debbie This is a no brainer really.
CCP have made an arbitrary decision to move ALL Ice mining out to 0.0 space, which is inaccessible to the 80% (or so) of people that choose to live in Empire where they are free from griefing.
The ramifications are huge. People that choose to live out of POS in an effort to avoid use of stations wherever possible, due to the pointless changes of Incarna and the poisonous addition of RMT in the NEX store (which is the only reason to have a station environment in the first place), will be getting the shaft. These people will not be able to reasonably afford to operate out of POS and inevitably will be forced back into using stations.
It is my belief that this is little more than a cash grab attempt by CCP to get more people using the highly unpopular station environments.
Two words for your... wormholes.
Still waiting for my Golden Scorpion.
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cordon ombilical
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Posted - 2011.08.23 11:36:00 -
[28]
Too much drama, it is like u played eve since 2 days. Increase of isk for ice it will result in increase of prices. So just relax, without empire economy eve will crash.
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Cashcow Golden Goose
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Posted - 2011.08.23 11:40:00 -
[29]
CCP are determined to drive people into playing Diablo 3, it's just a matter of time & inevitability now.
It'll all be over soon. (tm) |
cordon ombilical
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Posted - 2011.08.23 11:44:00 -
[30]
With japan in eve and open of diablo it isn't a good combination :)
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