Pages: [1] :: one page |
|
Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 2 post(s) |
Bart Starr
Aggressive Structural Steel Expediting Services
41
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 06:38:00 -
[1] - Quote
IF CCP'S 'BARGE BUFF' GOAL WAS TO KILL OFF HULKAGEDDON? CONGRATS, MISSION ACCOMPLISHED.
IF CCP'S GOAL WAS TO BALANCE THE EXHUMER/BARGE CLASSES? BIGTIME MISERABLE FAILURE.
PRIOR TO AUGUST 8, WE WOULD FIND A FAIR NUMBER OF BOTH MACKS AND HULKS. TODAY MINING IS TURNING INTO MACKINAW ONLINE.
WHY? SIMPLE.
MINERS ONLY CARE ABOUT THREE THINGS: CARGO, YIELD, EHP. AND NOT EQUALLY. AFTER SCANNING THOUSANDS OF HULKS/MACKS OVER THE YEARS, I FOUND:
-CARGO FITS (ABOUT 60% OF THE TIME) -YIELD FITS (ABOUT 30% OF THE TIME) -EHP FITS (ABOUT 10% OF THE TIME)
CLEARLY, CARGO IS THE MOST 'DESIRABLE TRAIT'.
SO, ENTER THE AUGUST 8 MINING BARGE FAIL-PATCH:
EACH 'TRAIT' BECAME THE SPECIALTY OF A DIFFERENT EXHUMER.
HULK = YIELD EXHUMER MACK = CARGO EXHUMER SKIFF = EHP EXHUMER.
HERES THE PROBLEM: WHEN YOU RANK EACH EXHUMER BY 'TRAIT', THE IMBALANCE BECOMES CLEAR. IMAGINE ITS THE OLYMPICS AND GOLD, SILVER AND BRONZE MEDALS ARE AWARDED FOR EACH CHARACTERISTIC.
CARGO EVENT, (MOST DESIRED TRAIT): MACK #1, SKIFF #2, HULK #3 YIELD EVENT, (2ND MOST IMPORTANT): HULK #1, MACK #2, SKIFF #3 EHP EVENT, (3RD MOST IMPORTANT): SKIFF #1, MACK #2, HULK #3.
MACKINAW IS #1, #2 AND #2. (A GOLD AND TWO SILVERS, WITH THE GOLD IN THE MOST IMPORTANT CATEGORY) HULK IS #1, #3 AND #3, (A GOLD AND TWO BRONZES, AND DISTANT 3RDS AT THAT.) SKIFF IS #1, #2 AND #3, (GOLD, SILVER, BRONZE - A NICE BALANCE IF THE MACK WASN'T 'JUST BETTER')
MACKINAW CLEARLY COMES OUT WELL AHEAD OF THE OTHER TWO. NOT ONLY IS IT, BY A LARGE MARGIN, THE BEST IN THE MOST IMPORTANT CATEGORY, ITS A STRONG SECOND IN THE OTHERS. HULKS AND SKIFFS FALL BY THE WAYSIDE AS THE MACKINAW BECOMES THE OBVIOUS CHOICE.
THIS SAME MISTAKE IS REPEATED IN THE T1 MINING BARGES AS WELL.
(NOTE TO RESIDENT ISD: HERE'S WHERE I PROVIDE A HELPFUL SOLUTION, HOPEFULLY PLACING THIS THREAD OUTSIDE OF YOUR EVER-FLEXIBLE DEFINITION OF A RANT)
EASIEST SOLUTION? SWAP THE EHP OF THE HULK AND THE MACKINAW.
EACH EXHUMER BECOMES: 1ST IN ONE CATEGORY, 2ND IN ANOTHER, AND 3RD IN THE LAST. 1-2-3 FOR EACH EXHUMER, AND THE GOAL OF TIERICIDE IS ACHIEVED - 3 EXHUMERS WITHOUT A 'OBVIOUS' BEST CHOICE.
WHILE THE MACKINAW WILL STILL LIKELY BE THE MOST POPULAR (BEST IN CARGO) THE IMBALANCE WOULD NOT BE QUITE SO OBVIOUSLY PRONOUNCED.
AS A BONUS, THE ABUSIVE 'AFK' NATURE OF THE MACKINAW WOULD BE BALANCED BY ITS LOWER EHP AND VULNERABILITY TO SOLO GANKS WHEN FAILFIT. PIT THE NATURAL DESIRE TO LAZY-AFK MINE VS HIGHER RISK OF GETTING GANKED. HULK MINERS EARN THEIR KEEP THROUGH CARGO MANAGEMENT, MACKINAW MINERS EARN IT BY FITTING TANK AND WATCHING OUT FOR DANGER.
ITS BALANCE 101 - CLASS DISMISSED. STUDY HARDER NEXT TIME, DEVS.
OH, AND I'LL DO A PRE-EMPTIVE STRIKE: AM I MAD? NO. |
TharOkha
0asis Group
62
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 06:43:00 -
[2] - Quote
Between the TAB and SHIFT button, there is one magical button called CapsLock. You should try to push it before you post. GÇ£If reality can destroy the dream, why shouldn't the dream destroy reality?GÇ¥ |
Tarn Kugisa
Infinite Covenant Tribal Band
148
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 06:43:00 -
[3] - Quote
inb4ISD I Endorse this Product and/or Service Source Recorder-esque tool for EVE |
Samoth Egnoled
EVE Corporation 987654321-POP The Marmite Collective
52
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 06:45:00 -
[4] - Quote
I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT WERE SHOUTING ABOUT!
Yawn
In before lockage |
baltec1
Bat Country
2265
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 06:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
TLDR
Change the macks base tank to the hulks and leave the hulk where it is. Skiff will then get the job it was ment to have. |
Sin Pew
Dakini Rising The Kali Cartel
120
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 06:47:00 -
[6] - Quote
Would have read if it wasn't written in caps, but I bet it's a rant. "haiku are easy, But sometimes they don't make sense, Refrigerator." |
Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
1555
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 06:49:00 -
[7] - Quote
Just opened up the Eve-O forums and the first thing I saw is a guy shouting at my face. Didn't even read the contents. "I think weGÇÖre just getting closer and closer to a place where the people we lose are people that itGÇÖs okay to lose." -Kristoffer Touborg, Eve lead designer |
TharOkha
0asis Group
62
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 06:53:00 -
[8] - Quote
According post. Yes there is quite imbalance in mining. Mack has nearly as same yeld as hulk. So everybody preffers macks. Also skiff lacks its purpose. Large EHP is great but ...
. So: -increase yeld for hulks or lower yeld for macks (so miners will think twice if yeld or tank/cargo). -make skiff "ninja miner" for low/null. Add one hi-slot for covert ops cloaking device(99% cpu reduction etc) and increase agility.
after this we should see more hulks and skiffs flying arround GÇ£If reality can destroy the dream, why shouldn't the dream destroy reality?GÇ¥ |
|
ISD TYPE40
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1159
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 06:54:00 -
[9] - Quote
Ranting still isn't allowed, thread locked - ISD Type40. ISD Type40 Lieutenant Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
|
Alaekessa
Matari Combat Research and Manufacture Inc. Zombie Ninja Space Bears
64
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 06:55:00 -
[10] - Quote
All caps makes my eyes hurt, but aside from that I would say it isn't a bad alternative.
IMHO, I'd be happy with going back to the old base EHP totals though giving them fitting equivalency to frigs, cruisers and battleships respectively. They still couldn't fit turrets, though with the extra CPU and PG you'd have the space for a huge variety of fits. Keeping ore holds (perhaps lower them all to roughly where the Hulk is currently) as well as keeping slot arraignments as is would also be a good idea. I agree with the following assessment of the Mining Barge Buff and as a reformed "Greed-fit", High-sec AFK miner, I think that is saying something. -áMining Barge buff: CCP has acknowledged that miners in general are too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable. |
|
|
CCP Gargant
C C P C C P Alliance
58
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 09:00:00 -
[11] - Quote
Thread moved from General Discussion CCP Gargant | Community Representitive |
|
Ryshca
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 09:57:00 -
[12] - Quote
Can you repost it without CapsLock on? It is hard to read a wall of text with CapsLock on somehow... |
Galphii
Sileo In Pacis THE SPACE P0LICE
66
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 10:15:00 -
[13] - Quote
You can get a mack to bring in almost as much as a hulk too, with that extra lowslot. Same with the retriever vs the other barges. Not the balance we'd hoped for. Half the problem is that mining is so boring, afk mining is the only sane way to do it. |
Ryshca
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 10:18:00 -
[14] - Quote
Thanks TharOkha for the summary. And the capslock wall of text is worth to read as it seems!! Imho ThatOkha delivery some nice suggestions. Basicly it comes to the points:
-mackinaw needs a nerf They got almost the same mining yield as the hulk, while they got much more hp and the best cargo hold.
-skiff needs another boost as they are not worth to be used in low-sec, 0.0. They just got more hp which means they can be caught so easy as other exhumers. It just takes longer to kill them, which is pointless since they are still defenceless. |
Iris Bravemount
The Golden Gaze
84
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 12:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
Quote:they are still defenceless
InB4 Skiff Killmail I accidentally... the bookmark. How much is it worth? |
Ryshca
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
4
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 13:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
Iris Bravemount wrote:Quote:they are still defenceless InB4 Skiff Killmail
InB4, what secret language are you using? Or which decryption do i need for it?
But considering you are saying Skiff Killmail, you are supporting my statement, since it means it is a killmail with a destroyed skiff on it, thanks!
|
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
582
|
Posted - 2012.09.25 13:53:00 -
[17] - Quote
I dunno where this survey happened, but on the mining ops I work Hulks show up more often.
Boosted Hulk is more than Boosted Mackinaw, and noone cares if the mack holds more when you have dedicated haulers working.
I guess solo guys have different concerns. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Alphaphi
The Illuminatii Mildly Intoxicated
18
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 05:56:00 -
[18] - Quote
Ryshca wrote:Iris Bravemount wrote:Quote:they are still defenceless InB4 Skiff Killmail InB4, what secret language are you using? Or which decryption do i need for it? But considering you are saying Skiff Killmail, you are supporting my statement, since it means it is a killmail with a destroyed skiff on it, thanks!
i think he meant one of these: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=14320342
Battle skiff, best skiff. |
Mars Theran
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
312
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 06:58:00 -
[19] - Quote
To be fair, that Stealth Bomber fit had a lot wrong with it; I don't think it would have had much chance surviving anything. Maybe I was actually sleeping in front of my computer and dreamed I posted. Certainly, it's not there now. |
Malice Redeemer
Redeemer Group Joint Venture Conglomerate
129
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 18:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
As this is all so painfully obvious, how was it set up this way in the first place? it makes 0 sense to use a hulk for anything, period. |
|
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
585
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 18:15:00 -
[21] - Quote
Malice Redeemer wrote:As this is all so painfully obvious, how was it set up this way in the first place? it makes 0 sense to use a hulk for anything, period. Maybe for solo work, you could be right.
But on an op with proper support, the Hulk has no competition. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
126
|
Posted - 2012.09.26 21:20:00 -
[22] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:Malice Redeemer wrote:As this is all so painfully obvious, how was it set up this way in the first place? it makes 0 sense to use a hulk for anything, period. Maybe for solo work, you could be right. But on an op with proper support, the Hulk has no competition. This ^^^^^^^^^ is correct, I mine with an Orca booster and one hulk and one retriever and I hate the retriever during the op, a mackinaw would be no better, I have a hulk for my other alt and am just waiting to train mining barge V so I can start to destroy roids real quick Ideas for Dorne Improvement https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1658683#post1658683 Updated 9/21/12 |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
12
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 00:30:00 -
[23] - Quote
most miners are solo (semi) afk miners. mack is best at this by far and therefore most popular (good job CCP. sincerely) Hulk has super yield, especially when it has an Orca to boost and haul for it. Best fleet miner and used thusly in fleets ive seen (again, nice one) skiff is uber tough. best bait miner and bloody good fun. (thanks CCP)
feature working as intended? i think so.
the only thing that i'd consider changing is lowering ehp's and separating yields a smidge. hulkaggeddon will still go ahead. miners aren't invincible and there are other indies to hunt. |
Furry Commander
Furry Armada
10
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 01:44:00 -
[24] - Quote
I think this is a circumstance where the metagame and the actual game conflict. I multibox like a boss, but I only have one monitor. i cannot run a fleet of hulks efficiently, but i can run a fleet of macks efficiently simply because alt tabbing between clients on my setup doesn't work fast enough for me to get a breather between cycles and i have to time my starts and stops, and god forbid i get jammed by any NPCs it throws my whole system off. macks are just flat out more user friendly for most types of mining/miners. as far as actual ship attributes i think they are balanced, but as far as using each of them, the mack is easiest in almost every circumstance given the nature of mining. although i wouldnt mind a switch in EHP between the mack and the hulk, i honestly think it would be better to just double all mining barge/exhumer ore holds. if i could fit two cycles into a hulk, i would use them and be more attentive to my mining when i did it. that would really please the AFK type miners as well. frankly, i don't ever feel a need to use the Skiff since i am always in a boosted fleet and don't really need the extra protection, even in nulsec, |
Herping yourDerp
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
772
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 02:08:00 -
[25] - Quote
Why so much hate about this? sell your hulk and buy a mack if you mine solo if you mine in fleet and solo you have to buy a mack for your solo duties if you only mine with orca support just keep your hulk.
people cargo fit for solo ( because you spend more time in warp then mining) People fit for Yield when in ops because you can jetcan your ore and have orca tractor beam it for you AKA you never leave the belt.
|
Furry Commander
Furry Armada
10
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 02:36:00 -
[26] - Quote
Herping yourDerp wrote:Why so much hate about this? sell your hulk and buy a mack if you mine solo if you mine in fleet and solo you have to buy a mack for your solo duties if you only mine with orca support just keep your hulk.
people cargo fit for solo ( because you spend more time in warp then mining) People fit for Yield when in ops because you can jetcan your ore and have orca tractor beam it for you AKA you never leave the belt.
Although i don't quite agree with OP there is still some merit to his argument. barges/exhumers are better, but still need some fine tuning. Hulk when boosted fills up to fast if you are multiboxing or semi afking having to tend to it every 2 or 3 minutes is just a bit to much effort for mining considering how droll it can be. the skiff seems to be underwhelming as well. there are no complaints about the retriever/mack, aside from the fact that it is the only one that is more or less perfect for what its intended to do. hulk/covetor needs a bit more ore hold or it becomes too tedious, and procurer/skiff only has EHP as its sell point which isn't quite enough to make it an attractive enough option to actually use, unless you are paranoid about gankage. give it back its warp strength bonus and maybe you will see it mining in lowsec more or something, not sure exactly what it needs though
I think this all stems from having six ships requiring roughly the same skills doing roughly the same thing and finding a way to give each of them a specific job becomes difficult to both achieve and balance. |
Astroniomix
Thorn Project
244
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 05:59:00 -
[27] - Quote
I said this in a different thread already but I'll say it again here: The changes aren't "helping" a whole lot.
Still plenty of morons running around in cargo fit hulks.
There are just more cargo fit macs thrown in the mix now. |
Martin0
Maximum-Overload
70
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 07:14:00 -
[28] - Quote
Galphii wrote:You can get a mack to bring in almost as much as a hulk too, with that extra lowslot. Same with the retriever vs the other barges.
Just removing a low slot from the mack/retriver will probably be enough to balance things out. |
Daichi Yamato
Swamp Bucket Swamp Bucket Empire
12
|
Posted - 2012.09.27 22:13:00 -
[29] - Quote
Furry Commander wrote:
I multibox like a boss, but I only have one monitor. i cannot run a fleet of hulks efficiently, but i can run a fleet of macks efficiently simply because alt tabbing between clients on my setup doesn't work fast enough for me to get a breather between cycles and i have to time my starts and stops, and god forbid i get jammed by any NPCs it throws my whole system off. macks are just flat out more user friendly for most types of mining/miners...
if u want to multi-box then sacrifice some yield and use the mack. Leave the hulk for active miners in fleets or those who can multi-box better than u.
Furry Commander wrote:
although i wouldnt mind a switch in EHP between the mack and the hulk, i honestly think it would be better to just double all mining barge/exhumer ore holds. if i could fit two cycles into a hulk, i would use them and be more attentive to my mining when i did it. that would really please the AFK type miners as well.
no. max yield ships get lower tanks, this is appropriate. ore holds are massive enough when a mack can mine for half an hour without having to return to station. just can mine with ur hulk or multi-box with an orca. If you could semi-afk mine and tank with a max yield hulk then things will just go back to everyone using hulks and would completely undo everything CCP just did. big no!
also, nothing in this game should help afk miners. mining afk and/or botting ruins ore and mineral prices, affecting the entire market. |
|
|
|
Pages: [1] :: one page |
First page | Previous page | Next page | Last page |