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Seleene
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Posted - 2005.03.03 14:51:00 -
[1]
Edited by: Seleene on 03/03/2005 14:52:39
Greetings Fellow Citizens of EVE,
I am posting this here as it is an issue that affects "Corporations, Alliances and Organizations".
I come before you today to give a voice to a problem that seems to be spiraling out of control: the new war cost system.
In a perfectly coded world, I believe the cost of wars is a good thing. However, the problem is that the system has never worked correctly from the time it was implemented. It was only in the past two weeks that BDCI and our Coalition partners fully realized the grand extent of the problem and why it was happening. I present it to you now so that,
1.) Those who are unaware of this issue are informed and do not end up on the wrong end of an inflated war bill.
2.) Those of you who have experienced this can lend your voice to the issue and help the hard working Developers and GMs by giving them the information they need to hopefully root out this problem and eliminate it.
Until last night, my corp was at war with two alliances, Force of Evil & Kiretsu. The war costs for the first two weeks were 33 & 40 million ISK a week, respectively. However, the third week was billed and the war fees had been inflated to 100,000,000 and 155,000,000 ISK.
Due to this, the Coalition corps that had a war bill due allowed the FoE war to lapse so we could let the war die and re-declare with a clean slate. Hopefully, the war fee will be back down to the correct amount when it is time to re-declare and, if so, I will update this thread with that information later tonight.
After extensive investigation, it was learned that the problem is that the EVE war system is counting the 24 hour surrender period of a corp that leaves an alliance as an active declared war. This is then counted as a multiple when computing war fees against targets. In our case, this is what happened:
My corp declared on two alliances. During the course of these wars, we had several corps leave these alliances thereby 'surrendering' to us. When a corp leaves an alliance, there is a 24 hour period where the corp that declared on the alliance is still allowed to shoot at them. This is part of the original declaration and should not be considered an extra "war", yet the system is treating it as such. If your war bill comes due when you have an active "war" against one or more surrendered corps, then the game mechanic uses those as a multiple for your Alliance war bill.
The additional "wars" created by the 24 hour surrender period from a corp leaving an alliance should have no effect on the war fees paid to maintain the Alliance war as you have already paid to shoot at these people. The size of these corps leaving an alliance also has no effect on the added cost; the multiple is the same. We have no problem paying for what we are actively pursuing, but this is completely wrong and a flaw in the game mechanic.
The declaring corp should not have to pay for wars that it DID NOT INITIATE. We should only have to pay a war fee for a war that we declared. War fees should not be multiplied because of an additional 'active war' due to the 24 hour "leaving an alliance" period.
I have spoken with several other corps, and even a couple alliance leaders and they have all run into a variation of this issue. Some have paid the inflated war cost, then petitioned it and subsequently been refunded the correct amount of ISK. Others have been told that the ISK cannot be refunded unless/until this is defined as a "bug".
I would urge any corps or alliances that have experienced this flaw in the war system to post to this thread. Please give as much information as you can to aid the Devs and GMs.
Thank you and Fly Safe! -
T2 Weapons Testing in progress! Volunteer today! |
MatrixVotf
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Posted - 2005.03.03 14:57:00 -
[2]
We all pity your increasing costs of ganking nubs in empire.
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Seleene
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Posted - 2005.03.03 15:02:00 -
[3]
Originally by: MatrixVotf We all pity your increasing costs of ganking nubs in empire.
Thank you for the bump, good sir! -
T2 Weapons Testing in progress! Volunteer today! |
Spinal
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Posted - 2005.03.03 15:15:00 -
[4]
Agreed Seleene,
When you want to declare a alliance war ontop of a normal war its Extorting prices.
i got quotes 365 million ??
It does need sorting out.
Spinal
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Hakera
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Posted - 2005.03.03 15:17:00 -
[5]
I made a similar post in patch review about war costs, we had all our alliance wars cancelled, and then the multipler is taking into account all active wars whether we declared them or not so our bill just like yours began to spirial upwards to 100mill+
Dumbledore - Eve-I.com |
StiZum Hilidii
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Posted - 2005.03.03 15:22:00 -
[6]
we have experienced this STAN
FACTA NON VERBA |
Bhaal
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Posted - 2005.03.03 15:39:00 -
[7]
Edited by: Bhaal on 03/03/2005 15:39:21 That'll teach ya for declaring war on The Keiretsu! JK...
Obviously, a big problem... ------------------------------------------------ "for piece sakes!" |
Krapz
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Posted - 2005.03.03 15:39:00 -
[8]
/me begins the Dr Evil laugh.
-- Insert cool graphics sig here -- |
Mongo Peck
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Posted - 2005.03.03 15:39:00 -
[9]
/diplomatic mode on
The alliance / corp war billing system sux !!!
/diplomatic mode off
Yap Yap Mongo speaks !!
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Mastiphal Nosferatu
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Posted - 2005.03.03 15:44:00 -
[10]
Yep, sounds familier...
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NAFnist
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Posted - 2005.03.03 15:44:00 -
[11]
If a corp leaves and thereby 'surrenders' the war costs should drop a notch, not the other way around.
CCP should fix this asap. _____________
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Mechanix
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Posted - 2005.03.03 15:57:00 -
[12]
Yup we're getting this too. Price to continue our war Vs. Xetic in excess of 200mil. (I think thats for the second week?)
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Masta Killa
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:00:00 -
[13]
Can I also gank the noobs of an alliance in empire for little isk? --------------------------------------
We are The Collective. Resistance is futile. |
FoRGyL
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:01:00 -
[14]
sort it
-out- ********************************************************* Ohhhh iyayaayaya puff ohh iyaayaya puff puff PVR =Player vs Roid! Burr, scary peps!!! |
Selena D'Kree
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:01:00 -
[15]
Ugh! I so agree. We had someone declare on us, and they did nothing just sat there never coming on. At first we where like "oh cool, someone wants to fight", then NOTHING. But when we went to declare war on FSA, the bill was HUGE! It cost more to declare on them than Xetic. And all because of that one corp, thereby making FSA double. And it's not how many members, it's how many corps. I have the ratio some where *digs through her stuff* oh hell I will find it when I dock up. This is so stupid. There needs to be something standard.
i.e. if the corp surrenders they do not count, if someone declare on you they do not count towards your "number of wars"
Love, Selly
*kicks her ship to get the mwd working and zooms off*
It is not the path we chose but the direction in which we chose to travel upon it.
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Foyle
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:02:00 -
[16]
Yes, we have run across the same issue, 248 million to fight Xetic. I think retracting and redeclaring such as you have might be a good idea.
Thank you for gathering such intel and sharing it with us.
Eternally yours, MuthaTrucka
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Selena D'Kree
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:04:00 -
[17]
Hey idea! Maybe every corp in eve declare on FoE and make them go bankrupt
Down with FoE!!!
It is not the path we chose but the direction in which we chose to travel upon it.
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Oveur
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:09:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Seleene After extensive investigation, it was learned that the problem is that the EVE war system is counting the 24 hour surrender period of a corp that leaves an alliance as an active declared war. This is then counted as a multiple when computing war fees against targets.
This is entirely correct. It's bug that we have fixed and it's in the next patch. _____________________________ I say hey sky, s'other say I won say, I pray to J I get the same ol' same ol. |
Seleene
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:17:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Oveur
Originally by: Seleene After extensive investigation, it was learned that the problem is that the EVE war system is counting the 24 hour surrender period of a corp that leaves an alliance as an active declared war. This is then counted as a multiple when computing war fees against targets.
This is entirely correct. It's bug that we have fixed and it's in the next patch.
\o/
Thank you very much for sorting this out! Several of the GMs do not seem to be aware of this, though.
ETA on a patch for this or should we all be watching for a new Dev Blog? -
T2 Weapons Testing in progress! Volunteer today! |
Wuubaa
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:18:00 -
[20]
Edited by: Wuubaa on 03/03/2005 16:28:41 our war initial costed 50mil for the first week when declared. The price is know double that i believe.
I find that rather strange but it is how its meant to be apparently.
0 active wars = number of corps * 1mil = 50mil war cost
however with the 1 war active it turns into number of corps * 1mil per corp and then doubles it due to having one war active. Surely unless im being totally stupid only having 1 active war should cost us 55mil per week (on se) but if we were to activate another the cost should double. *shrugs*
Im prolly just avin a stupid moment/week
Maybe it costs so much cos its redecalring but not taking into account it declaring each week but not taking into account its the same war. So acting like we are decalring on a 2nd seperate entitity.
*shrugs again*
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darth solo
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:22:00 -
[21]
dont get us started on war costs seleene:(.... many mails to GMs have been sent and a long time wasted, its just a stupid idiotic idea thats not been thought out with any sort of sense.
d solo.
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Seleene
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:24:00 -
[22]
Originally by: darth solo dont get us started on war costs seleene:(.... many mails to GMs have been sent and a long time wasted, its just a stupid idiotic idea thats not been thought out with any sort of sense.
d solo.
Check Oveur's reply above.
I wanted people to post all the various examples of what has happened to them with this so that the Devs might spot something they have missed. -
T2 Weapons Testing in progress! Volunteer today! |
arjun
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:44:00 -
[23]
Edited by: arjun on 03/03/2005 16:45:42 why would a corp declare war on an alliance anyway? to gank their empire personel. if the corp would want a fight they would invade the territory of the alliance. but no the corp doesnt really want that. there the numbers come into play. a 100 man corp just has not the manpower to defeat an alliance of say 4 k members. for the "pleasure" of ganking noobs, miners, producers, traders in empire and sacking in nice loot there, there should be a hefty cost and its also fine that the cost increases. or else some buggers could fatten themself forever on such "wars" if u wanna fight an alliance then invade their territory.
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Al Haquis
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:47:00 -
[24]
We have the same problem my dear sister.
We had 8 active wars 2 days ago. We just started the 8. war and 0,5 sec later 6 of our wars just dropped. The new war bill is at least 170mil to activate our wars and the saddest part is that it happened to our enemys allso. So infact they paid **** loads of isk for a 2 day war and now have to redeclare and the bill for them is way out of control. Adding also a 1 member corp declared war on us thus pushing up our war costs way out of the chart.
I AM NOT HAPPY CCP , I actually have to mine in an alliance minning op. And my darling ccp members know that when pvp players have to mine just to keep wars active that they will turn to the forums and smack will increase.
One extra plea, Oveur will you at least inform the GM¦s that this is a bug so at least corps can get there isk refunded.
Seeing that our enemys payed over 50mil for a 2 day war that they now have to redeclare and the new war costs 80mil.
---------------------------------------------------------------------- Council Member, Tahiri Warrior Masuat'aa Forums
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Sivona
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Posted - 2005.03.03 16:50:00 -
[25]
Originally by: arjun Edited by: arjun on 03/03/2005 16:45:42 why would a corp declare war on an alliance anyway? to gank their empire personel. if the corp would want a fight they would invade the territory of the alliance. but no the corp doesnt really want that. there the numbers come into play. a 100 man corp just has not the manpower to defeat an alliance of say 4 k members. for the "pleasure" of ganking noobs, miners, producers, traders in empire and sacking in nice loot there, there should be a hefty cost and its also fine that the cost increases. or else some buggers could fatten themself forever on such "wars" if u wanna fight an alliance then invade their territory.
This is not a thread about the right or wrongs of war its a post about a bug within the game mechanics which is affecting in some way or another the way the game is being played. There are plenty of other of other threads to flame on this forum do so there.
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Velsharoon
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Posted - 2005.03.03 17:05:00 -
[26]
Originally by: arjun Edited by: arjun on 03/03/2005 16:45:42 why would a corp declare war on an alliance anyway? to gank their empire personel. if the corp would want a fight they would invade the territory of the alliance. but no the corp doesnt really want that. there the numbers come into play. a 100 man corp just has not the manpower to defeat an alliance of say 4 k members. for the "pleasure" of ganking noobs, miners, producers, traders in empire and sacking in nice loot there, there should be a hefty cost and its also fine that the cost increases. or else some buggers could fatten themself forever on such "wars" if u wanna fight an alliance then invade their territory.
so you complain about us killing their people in empire, then tell us to go fight them in THEIR CLAIMED ALLIANCE SPACE
its just sruck me how retarded that is, tell ya what if they want to be in empire dont join an alliance
but yeah like siv said start a new thread or something :)
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Kaeten
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Posted - 2005.03.03 17:34:00 -
[27]
I think the cost is fair.
___________________________________ *cough* *cough* *sniff* *cough* *cough* *cough* *burp* *cough* |
Drilla
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Posted - 2005.03.03 17:54:00 -
[28]
Edited by: Drilla on 03/03/2005 17:55:17 Wars should be pr. day and be activated within 2 hours.
Cost should be 10mill x corp x number of active wars x number of active wars on the defender.
That should ensure that mercs charge an amount that's fair - like 200-500 mill a day. It's too cheap today to wage war on alliances, the costs needs to go up to an amount that only a few can afford and something you only declare when you really really want too.
Or just change it so only alliances can declare on alliances and the same with corps. And then put a minimum of 15 corps and 500 members to be able to declare war as an alliance and keep the cost as it is today. - *** pure moinage ***
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Scerenity
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Posted - 2005.03.03 18:19:00 -
[29]
On the same line as war bugs, i've posted the following topic on the Q&A forums. If anyone could take a look at it, and post any relevant information you have on the bug on that topic, it'd be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance..
------ Scerenity Selling Me! |
Velsharoon
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Posted - 2005.03.03 18:28:00 -
[30]
Drilla thats vastly overestimating what the client will pay
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