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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 8 post(s) |
Jace Errata
Lawlz Brawlz
283
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Posted - 2012.10.04 19:14:00 -
[61] - Quote
I'm rather worried by the change to can-related aggression. It means that if I so much as pick up a wreck from someone else's ill-advised attempt to kill a battleship with an Ibis, every single player in EVE, all of them, gets the ability to shoot me with no consequences, for 15 minutes.
And people will take advantage of that. Stealth OST puns and blatant lies since 2009 Jace Errata on Twitter
One day they woke me up so I could live forever It's such a shame the same will never happen to you |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9724
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Posted - 2012.10.04 19:19:00 -
[62] - Quote
Dirty Wizard wrote:@ CCP
I'm curious. With the new changes coming, will it still be possible to eject from my T3 ship if I know I'm going to die? The blog mentioned that changing ships will not be allowed when PvP flagged, so I was wondering if that would apply to ejecting too. I'd like to keep my T3 skills. As it is right now, you're going to lose your SP, period.
There are ways to keep that SP-saving tactic and still get rid of ship-swapping, but we'll see if they buy itGǪ GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Tysinger
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
23
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Posted - 2012.10.04 19:21:00 -
[63] - Quote
CCP Greyscale....
Your mission is almost done, you have just about wiped out HS encounters and made it a safe place for all your mining buddies.
It is amazing to me how you still have a job, but grats on seeing your vision through. |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
1201
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Posted - 2012.10.04 19:26:00 -
[64] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:*snip* In order for Crimewatch to have purpose there must first be actual crimes for it to impact. What are these crimes? Well in highsec it would be can flipping and ninja salvaging/wreck flipping. CCP, however, has largely eliminated both of these activities from the game. Specifically, the Noctis basically rendered ninja salvaging/wreck flipping obsolete, while the recent barge changes have put can flippers out of business due to the large ore holds of the retriever and mack. So the question becomes, at this point why implement crimewatch at all? Its not needed in low sec where everyone can shot everyone else anyway. While in highsec, CCP has eliminated most points of Player to Player conflicts on a ship to ship basis. Sure there is still suiciding - but concord already takes care of that, and war decing -but that is outside of crimewatch, but every other point of conflict is gone or rendered so marginal as to be effectively the same thing. In fact, IMO the only place where you see the opportunity for crimewatch to have an impact is outside of hubs like jita where there are cans strewn left and right. But these cans are left around solely for the purpose of either gaining consensual fights or ganking newbes who dont know to leave them alone. Hence the implementation of crimewatch will have counter-intuitive effects - it will not add consequences to crime since crime has largely been eliminated through ship design but it will suppress consensual pvp (unless of course ccp adds a flagging system making this even more wow like ) while hurting new players who touch cans and suddenly find themselves aggro to everyone outside of jita. Of course if crimewatch is to have meaning, ccp could make can mining and ninja salvaging viable again by nerfing ore holds and making it possible to tractor other people wrecks, but these changes would probably cause too much whining so its probably better if CCP simply scraps crimewatch before it causes a decrease in whatever little pvp highsec has left.
Ninja looting is still viable, so I don't know wtf you are talking about. Oh... wait... you think "ninja" means lazily dragging a huge hull like a noctis through some poor nubs level 2 mission sight in empire is ninja looting. There's no ninja in noctis. You are doing it wrong. In fact, you are doing everything wrong. What conflict are you complaining about being gone? Weird one-sided specialty attacks on nubs in empire? You should try actually going into lowsec sometime.
Post w/ your main.
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Quaaid
Hephaestus LLC Get Off My Lawn
133
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Posted - 2012.10.04 19:36:00 -
[65] - Quote
Tsubutai wrote:Quaaid wrote:Sugar coating Crimewatch is not going to change the fact that you are quite intentionally changing mechanics to reduce piracy and mayhem in high/low sec space The new system may decrease the scope for highsec pvp, but it greatly increases the scope for lowsec pvp by effectively removing GCC as long as you don't pod people.
That's fair. I am arguing from a High Sec POV. Thanks for the correction. |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1127
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 19:46:00 -
[66] - Quote
Jace Errata wrote:I'm rather worried by the change to can-related aggression. It means that if I so much as pick up a wreck from someone else's ill-advised attempt to kill a battleship with an Ibis, every single player in EVE, all of them, gets the ability to shoot me with no consequences, for 15 minutes.
And people will take advantage of that.
Yeah, unless they thought about for two seconds and said.. yeah, I don't need a civilian blaster. If it did have anything of worth, perhaps they will double check their surroundings. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1313
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Posted - 2012.10.04 19:56:00 -
[67] - Quote
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Jace Errata wrote:I'm rather worried by the change to can-related aggression. It means that if I so much as pick up a wreck from someone else's ill-advised attempt to kill a battleship with an Ibis, every single player in EVE, all of them, gets the ability to shoot me with no consequences, for 15 minutes.
And people will take advantage of that. Yeah, unless they thought about for two seconds and said.. yeah, I don't need a civilian blaster. If it did have anything of worth, perhaps they will double check their surroundings. You can't loot the wreck that you just suicide ganked now without being flagged.
Suicide ganking = dead. Your haulers can't scoop the loot from freighters (or Macks) anymore w/o aggression.
To answer CCP Greyscale's horrible rhetorical:
CCP Greyscale wrote:If we wanted to do that then we would've spent a month putting in code that stopped you from committing crimes in the first place, rather than a year overhauling the system that gives interesting consequences for committing crimes.
The reason you didn't just spend months removing PVP engagements entirely from high-sec instead of this sham we're getting is that you'd have been even less popular after that brief endeavor than you are currently for the results of your year's hard labor. That explanation is intuitively obvious to the informed forum reader. The results are almost exactly the same. You surely must be able to see this! That you would beg this response is...frustrating...to say the very least. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Methesda
Tribal Liberation Force Minmatar Republic
41
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:00:00 -
[68] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:Myxx wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:Ok, so explain to me under what conditions a starbase with just "attack if aggression" set would fire on a player under the current implementation of Crimewatch, and how you as a player would go about predicting its likely behavior (before we removed that option, of course).
PS For anyone concerned about whether or not we've done any design work for this, I recommend waiting for the blog to come out some time in the next week or so. How do you respond to the accusation you specifically want to make Highsec completely safe with no risk whatsoever? If we wanted to do that then we would've spent a month putting in code that stopped you from committing crimes in the first place, rather than a year overhauling the system that gives interesting consequences for committing crimes.
WHAT THE HELL WHERE THE BARGE CHANGES THEN?
Eve is about the journey.-á If you are so focused on making money, that you insist on having the tools to make it be made as autonomous and easy as possible, then you are never going to have as much fun as I will.
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Holy One
Habitual Euthanasia Pandemic Legion
227
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:02:00 -
[69] - Quote
If you paid attention at last fanfest you'd know that crimewatch is a necessary refactoring of horrible nasty filthy ****** code from 40BC. The fact they're tossing it on the list of 'features' is kinda opportunism more than shinnies. Just be grateful they're bothering re-doing the back end stuff at all, as it shows they believe eve is worth investing in still. Even if it doesn't seem so! |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1127
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:03:00 -
[70] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote: Suicide ganking = dead. Your haulers can't scoop the loot from freighters (or Macks) anymore w/o aggression.
Then don't suicide gank groups that are being white knighted by combat ships. Or bring in some real combat ships to pick up the load. Suicide ganking = dead : if you are a lazy shmuck. Use some combat logi if you fear real retaliation. Which wont really happen much at all. |
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Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1313
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:10:00 -
[71] - Quote
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Darth Gustav wrote: Suicide ganking = dead. Your haulers can't scoop the loot from freighters (or Macks) anymore w/o aggression.
Then don't suicide gank groups that are being white knighted by combat ships. Or bring in some real combat ships to pick up the load. Suicide ganking = dead : if you are a lazy shmuck. Use some combat logi if you fear real retaliation. Which wont really happen much at all. I guess my post was pretty good. You only had a rebuttal to one snippet this time!
No but really, if you're implying that between the barge buffs and this crap that high-sec conflicts are not about to see record lows, then I'd like some of what you're smoking please. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
41
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:10:00 -
[72] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Jace Errata wrote:I'm rather worried by the change to can-related aggression. It means that if I so much as pick up a wreck from someone else's ill-advised attempt to kill a battleship with an Ibis, every single player in EVE, all of them, gets the ability to shoot me with no consequences, for 15 minutes.
And people will take advantage of that. Yeah, unless they thought about for two seconds and said.. yeah, I don't need a civilian blaster. If it did have anything of worth, perhaps they will double check their surroundings. You can't loot the wreck that you just suicide ganked now without being flagged. Suicide ganking = dead. Your haulers can't scoop the loot from freighters (or Macks) anymore w/o aggression. To answer CCP Greyscale's horrible rhetorical: CCP Greyscale wrote:If we wanted to do that then we would've spent a month putting in code that stopped you from committing crimes in the first place, rather than a year overhauling the system that gives interesting consequences for committing crimes. The reason you didn't just spend months removing PVP engagements entirely from high-sec instead of this sham we're getting is that you'd have been even less popular after that brief endeavor than you are currently for the results of your year's hard labor. That explanation is intuitively obvious to the informed forum reader. The results are almost exactly the same. You surely must be able to see this! That you would beg this response is...frustrating...to say the very least.
Ah good catch - I didnt realize that suiciding is done. So with this implementation we get: can flipping RIP, Ninja Salvaging RIP, and now Suiciding (for profit) RIP. So empire is finally safe. With eve having one large safe zone and consensual battle zones how is it different from wow? |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1313
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:32:00 -
[73] - Quote
It doesn't just hurt looting ganked wrecks, either.
Assuming high-sec war mechanics actually worked (LOL, unlike Greyscale's example of a removed feature "POS Attacks on Aggression"), under the proposed implementation you could clear the field in a high-sec war and then get mauled by lookie-lous as you try to clean up the wrecks.
That doesn't sound like Eve to me, to be quite frank. In fact it sounds pretty stupid. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
captain foivos
State War Academy Caldari State
33
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:34:00 -
[74] - Quote
Hurry up with that dev blog, Greyscale, because we're relying on past experience on which to judge these changes--and our past experiences have been pretty bad. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9732
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 20:38:00 -
[75] - Quote
Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Ah good catch - I didnt realize that suiciding is done. So with this implementation we get: can flipping RIP, Ninja Salvaging RIP, and now Suiciding (for profit) RIP. So empire is finally safe. With eve having one large safe zone and consensual battle zones how is it different from wow? GǪexcept that ninja salvaging still isn't being touched; that canflipping is still just as possible (and, in fact, could even see a boost if you're sly enough); and that ganking for profit under these rules was solved back in April.
Darth Gustav wrote:Assuming high-sec war mechanics actually worked (LOL, unlike Greyscale's example of a removed feature "POS Attacks on Aggression"), under the proposed implementation you could clear the field in a high-sec war and then get mauled by lookie-lous as you try to clean up the wrecks. Incorrect. Legal target = legal to loot = no-one can shoot you for taking the spoils of war. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1127
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 20:40:00 -
[76] - Quote
captain foivos wrote:Hurry up with that dev blog, Greyscale, because we're relying on past experience on which to judge these changes--and our past experiences have been pretty bad. Crimwatch blog has been up for several hours now. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1313
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:41:00 -
[77] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Vol Arm'OOO wrote:Ah good catch - I didnt realize that suiciding is done. So with this implementation we get: can flipping RIP, Ninja Salvaging RIP, and now Suiciding (for profit) RIP. So empire is finally safe. With eve having one large safe zone and consensual battle zones how is it different from wow? GǪexcept that ninja salvaging still isn't being touched; that canflipping is still just as possible (and, in fact, could even see a boost if you're sly enough); and that ganking for profit under these rules was solved back in April. Let's see Tippia, I think I agree with you about Ninja Salvaging and that can flipping is still "possible."
But what about looting wrecks from a war field flagging you to lookie-lous? What about freighter ganks being impossible to loot due to the ineffectiveness of a hauler fitted for cargo in surviving the same lookie-lous?
So no, I'm not so sure about the rest of that. But I'm interested in what you have to say about it just the same. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Nissui
Millennial Dawn
12
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:41:00 -
[78] - Quote
Please forgive my ignorance, but if I understand this correctly, we will still have the same 'amount' of risk in High Sec, these changes simply shift 100% of that risk to the aggressor. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9732
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:42:00 -
[79] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:But what about looting wrecks from a war field flagging you to lookie-lous? What about freighter ganks being impossible to loot due to the ineffectiveness of a hauler fitted for cargo in surviving the same lookie-lous? See above: looting war tagets (or indeed any legal targets) is no longer a crime. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1313
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:42:00 -
[80] - Quote
Nissui wrote:Please forgive my ignorance, but if I understand this correctly, we will still have the same 'amount' of risk in High Sec, these changes simply shift 100% of that risk to the aggressor. No.
There is less risk except if you're trying to loot the field after winning a war battle. Then there's more risk, for the wrong reasons. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
9734
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:44:00 -
[81] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Tippia wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:But what about looting wrecks from a war field flagging you to lookie-lous? What about freighter ganks being impossible to loot due to the ineffectiveness of a hauler fitted for cargo in surviving the same lookie-lous? See above: looting war tagets (or indeed any legal targets) is no longer a crime. Missed that. My bads. Wardeccers, rejoice. You finally got your reward mechanic and a way to fend off the competition. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan.
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CCP Greyscale
C C P C C P Alliance
1612
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:46:00 -
[82] - Quote
Sarah Schneider wrote:With no disrespect towards the huge amount of work you guys have done and still going to do (hopefully) and probably slightly unrelated to the crimewatch development. No matter how you spin in it, CCP are, moving towards that direction, all these buffs, nerfs, changes, modifications or whatever during the past few months (even years) proves that, or at least to an extent that a lot of players feel that way.
Again, I have a huge respect towards the devs, you guys are probably the best devs in terms of devs-player interaction I've seen during more than a decade of playing MMOs, so, there's that. But suffice it to say, we don't know what were the decisions made internally in CCP during the past few, we don't know whether the CCP executives made the decision to change from a pure and harsh sandbox to a more themepark styled MMO which caters a bigger market share. All we see are the impacts, what you guys did and where we think the game is moving, in which it's very clear. No matter what you, soundwave, or what other devs says.
Just my 2 isk. Please take no offense.
None taken, don't worry.
The primary goal of these changes was to simplify a horrifically complex system to the point where the average player could reasonably be expected to be able to understand approximately how it works.
A secondary goal was to try and keep the balance of power between criminals and their marks approximately where it is now. This was never going to be perfect, because the current balance of power is only possible thanks to the complexity of the current system.
There was never, at any point, any goal to make things safer. Cool story: can theft has been a pain the whole way through this process, and early on my preferred option was to do some special-casing around mining and then remove any penalties at all for stealing from cans, because it bypasses the whole issue. We felt this swung the balance too far in favor of "criminals" (it's legalization so they wouldn't technically be criminals any more), so we ended up not doing that, but hopefully this illustrates the point that "making hisec easier" was never on the agenda.
(If, of course, the complaint is actually that these changes reduces the number of people dying because they did something dumb because they didn't understand the mechanics, then yes, this change is absolutely intending to have that effect. We're not bothered about this because EVE should be about winning because you made better decisions, not because the other guy got screwed over by the interface. If you can't win on a level playing field based on better decision-making, you shouldn't be winning at all.)
La Nariz wrote:CCP Greyscale wrote:~crimewatch stuff~ How will Crimewatch affect looting of ganked ships? It seems that this suspect flag change will make ganking harder which decreases risk in highsec, will there be a proportional decrease in highsec reward to compensate for this?
Ganking, not at all harder. Looting from ganks, somewhat harder. Not impossible. Yes, your loot haulers are going to be vulnerable in the time between picking up the loot and going into warp. You're EVE players. You can figure out how to minimize that period of vulnerability.
Darth Gustav wrote:The reason you didn't just spend months removing PVP engagements entirely from high-sec instead of this sham we're getting is that you'd have been even less popular after that brief endeavor than you are currently for the results of your year's hard labor. That explanation is intuitively obvious to the informed forum reader. The results are almost exactly the same. You surely must be able to see this! That you would beg this response is...frustrating...to say the very least.
If you really want to believe that we'd bother doing, that there's probably nothing I can say to change your mind. (We didn't do that, because it would be a colossal waste of time and we have better things to do with our lives.) |
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Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1128
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:48:00 -
[83] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Tippia wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:But what about looting wrecks from a war field flagging you to lookie-lous? What about freighter ganks being impossible to loot due to the ineffectiveness of a hauler fitted for cargo in surviving the same lookie-lous? See above: looting war tagets (or indeed any legal targets) is no longer a crime. Missed that. My bads. If you're in the war yes its a legal wreck. Yet the looky-loos and gankers vs neutral targets will be in fact suspects when looting as your previous concern for yourself is valid.. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1313
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:50:00 -
[84] - Quote
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Tippia wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:But what about looting wrecks from a war field flagging you to lookie-lous? What about freighter ganks being impossible to loot due to the ineffectiveness of a hauler fitted for cargo in surviving the same lookie-lous? See above: looting war tagets (or indeed any legal targets) is no longer a crime. Missed that. My bads. If you're in the war yes its a legal wreck. Yet the looky-loos and gankers vs neutral targets will be in fact suspects when looting as your previous concern for yourself is valid.. That's a very good point. +1. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Psychotic Monk
The Skunkworks The Marmite Collective
400
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:54:00 -
[85] - Quote
Why does it feel like every devblog mentioning highsec over the past year or more feels like I'm getting directly punched in the guts? |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1316
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:56:00 -
[86] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:Why does it feel like every devblog mentioning highsec over the past year or more feels like I'm getting directly punched in the guts? Because every devblog mentioning high-sec in the past year has punched us in the gut.
I think even the people who thought they got a buff got punched in the gut. Time will tell on that one though. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Mallak Azaria
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
685
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Posted - 2012.10.04 20:59:00 -
[87] - Quote
Psychotic Monk wrote:Why does it feel like every devblog mentioning highsec over the past year or more feels like I'm getting directly punched in the guts?
Because CCP want highsec to be a safe, fluffy, carebear wonderland. Mining Barge buff: CCP-áhas acknowledged that miners in general-áare too stupid to make the correct fitting choices to make ganking them unprofitable. |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1128
|
Posted - 2012.10.04 21:04:00 -
[88] - Quote
Mallak Azaria wrote: Because CCP want highsec to be a safe, fluffy, carebear wonderland.
Because everyone can turn on their guns now... ironic? |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1316
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Posted - 2012.10.04 21:07:00 -
[89] - Quote
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Mallak Azaria wrote: Because CCP want highsec to be a safe, fluffy, carebear wonderland.
Because everyone can turn on their guns now... ironic? They could always turn them on before.
The irony is that now they won't - and with even more frequency than they didn't before! He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Vol Arm'OOO
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
42
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Posted - 2012.10.04 21:08:00 -
[90] - Quote
CCP Greyscale wrote:
None taken, don't worry.
The primary goal of these changes was to simplify a horrifically complex system to the point where the average player could reasonably be expected to be able to understand approximately how it works.
IMO on this point you failed horribly - it takes two charts and a magnifying glass to figure this out now. Its way more complicated then what we already have.
CCP Greyscale wrote: (If, of course, the complaint is actually that these changes reduces the number of people dying because they did something dumb because they didn't understand the mechanics, then yes, this change is absolutely intending to have that effect. We're not bothered about this because EVE should be about winning because you made better decisions, not because the other guy got screwed over by the interface. If you can't win on a level playing field based on better decision-making, you shouldn't be winning at all.)
Unfortunately, this is actually wrong headed and really against the spirit of eve. Eve's fun (at least for me) comes from its complexity - you are always learning, always seeing and figuring out new things. Eve has always rewarded the person who spends the time to learn the game and its mechanics. If you, make it less complex, you strip the game of its reward to the diligent player. Consequently, you make the game less interesting and rewarding. In effect, by removing its complexity you make the game more causal friendly but at the expense of the hardcore player. And we know how loyal those causal players are.... |
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