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Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2180
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Posted - 2012.10.07 00:46:00 -
[1] - Quote
Those change are not the final set of features for miners. Look at the summit notes and you'll see there are other new mining experiences in the works like ring mining and compound asteroids and possibly active mining laser that allow the miner to control the laser and change the yield.
So mining improvements are just starting to show up, it will take some time for CCP to get us everything planned.
Issler |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2182
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Posted - 2012.10.08 17:20:00 -
[2] - Quote
I am not hearing any miners complaining about the barge changes. I see some trolls trying to make some strange case that the barge changes "hurt" miners.
The barge changes were not about stopping botting. CCP has other things constantly in play to address that.
So if some miners have some mining related topics they would like to discuss let me know but realize, there is a full plate of work on CCP's table already so if its some big new thing, you won't see it for years.
Issler |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2183
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Posted - 2012.10.08 17:35:00 -
[3] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:I am not hearing any miners complaining about the barge changes. I see some trolls trying to make some strange case that the barge changes "hurt" miners.
The barge changes were not about stopping botting. CCP has other things constantly in play to address that.
So if some miners have some mining related topics they would like to discuss let me know but realize, there is a full plate of work on CCP's table already so if its some big new thing, you won't see it for years.
Issler OK this is something. The barge changes weren't about botting. Were they about plateauing? Did they accomplish the kinds of things (interactivity, compelling gameplay) that miners want? How about the kinds of things (no plateauing, each ship has a role) that CCP wanted? Or did they have the opposite effects? I'm not trolling Issler, I'm asking you for your opinion in the context of your other opinions.It's not that much to ask from an elected representative. And at least some players (possibly even including high-sec miners) are still waiting for you to directly answer the questions, thank you. Do you think the changes were consistent with what miners "actually want" as you expressed prior to running for CSM? If not, what advice do you have for CCP on the direction they need to head in the future to make mining more interactive and compelling? Also, I have one new question. What are your thoughts about the roles of risk in the career of the high-sec miner?
The more interesting changes are not the barge changes, although I think most miners like those quite a bit and the new mining frigate should be interesting as well.
As I mentioned before the items that will start to make mining a richer experience are in the pipe, the new compound rocks and actively controlled lasers will be first and then ring mining. The laws of physics means that you won't get everything instantly. So all I can say, and what I've been saying for some time is there are some great new things in plan for miners but it will be some time before we get them all.
Issler
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Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2183
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Posted - 2012.10.08 17:41:00 -
[4] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:Those change are not the final set of features for miners. Look at the summit notes and you'll see there are other new mining experiences in the works like ring mining and compound asteroids and possibly active mining laser that allow the miner to control the laser and change the yield.
So mining improvements are just starting to show up, it will take some time for CCP to get us everything planned.
Issler I'm not sure you explained how the changes work against bots. Nor how they discourage plateauing. You just said there are other things coming, that's not the same. I'm looking for specifics about these changes. Ie, are they consistent with the above-mentioned quotes, and if not, are you against them philosophically? You're kidding yourself if you think you're going to get an answer out of Michele Boland. Here is the total extent of his/her work as a CSM7 rep: Michele: CCP, do you intend to release more mining/industry changes and features in the future. CCP: Yes. Michele: My job, eet eez done! In fairness, there is a lot for her to answer for here. I can understand her trepidation to remark on how the "mining buffs" fit her self-ascribed vision of "what most miners actually want." The changes we got seem to be changes in the wrong direction even from the quoted viewpoints expressed by CSM Dainze before the changes ever hit SiSi! It's a bit of a pickle.
The barge changes are absolutely consistent with what I had hoped for miners in Eve. However they are only one part of a lot of things needed. For example the idea of the Skiff being great for ninja mining in more dangerous and but more profitable locations is fantastic. unfortunately at the moment those places are not in Eve. There is a lot of discussion about how to make low sec relevant again and if part of that means making mining there interesting we now have a great barge for the challenge.
Issler
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Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2183
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Posted - 2012.10.08 18:07:00 -
[5] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:Darth Gustav wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:I am not hearing any miners complaining about the barge changes. I see some trolls trying to make some strange case that the barge changes "hurt" miners.
The barge changes were not about stopping botting. CCP has other things constantly in play to address that.
So if some miners have some mining related topics they would like to discuss let me know but realize, there is a full plate of work on CCP's table already so if its some big new thing, you won't see it for years.
Issler OK this is something. The barge changes weren't about botting. Were they about plateauing? Did they accomplish the kinds of things (interactivity, compelling gameplay) that miners want? How about the kinds of things (no plateauing, each ship has a role) that CCP wanted? Or did they have the opposite effects? I'm not trolling Issler, I'm asking you for your opinion in the context of your other opinions.It's not that much to ask from an elected representative. And at least some players (possibly even including high-sec miners) are still waiting for you to directly answer the questions, thank you. Do you think the changes were consistent with what miners "actually want" as you expressed prior to running for CSM? If not, what advice do you have for CCP on the direction they need to head in the future to make mining more interactive and compelling? Also, I have one new question. What are your thoughts about the roles of risk in the career of the high-sec miner? The more interesting changes are not the barge changes, although I think most miners like those quite a bit and the new mining frigate should be interesting as well. As I mentioned before the items that will start to make mining a richer experience are in the pipe, the new compound rocks and actively controlled lasers will be first and then ring mining. The laws of physics means that you won't get everything instantly. So all I can say, and what I've been saying for some time is there are some great new things in plan for miners but it will be some time before we get them all. Issler Not. One. Iota. Of. Substance. Compound rocks do not have anything to do with the questions. Actively controlled lasers have nothing to do with the questions. Ring mining has nothing to do with the specific questions that were asked. Hoever, in the interest of manners and good taste, I wish to thank you very much for confirming what many already undoubtedly suspected: You are unable to give a straight answer pertaining to any issues potentially introduced by an apparent "buff" to mining. One, I might add, which has caused ice prices to deflate past the pricing indexes achieved through Goonswarm's ice interdiction and the subsequent Evergeddon. Obviously this thread was a waste of time, though. It's ok you can go back to AFK mining now. [edit] Why would miners use the Skiff for ninja mining, an activity which encourages the rapid uptake of resources and the timely exit of the miner before detection? The Skiff has the lowest yield of all the barges, making it the most likely to be detected. Hey look we're dialoguing! Would you mind directly addressing the questions now, though, please? [/edit]
Depending on how compound rocks are implemented they might make botting harder, they would also make mining potentially real time interactive, very consistent with what I said I hoped for. This might also end up adding some new skills (I would expect ring mining to as well). So this is exactly what I said I hoped for.
You need to get over the fact that the barge changes were NOT supposed to address the items you cite that I wanted to see changed in mining. I certainly didn't run based on seeing some change to the barges and that is it. Like I said, I am not seeing miners complain about the barges.
As for the most interesting changes to mining, we'll have to wait and see.
As for ice prices, markets work, if miners aren't happy with the prices they have the freedom to do something else with their time.
Issler |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2183
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Posted - 2012.10.08 18:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
Barge changes do not address anything you described and were not intended to. I think I've said that several times already.
Issler |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2183
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Posted - 2012.10.08 19:27:00 -
[7] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Issler Dainze wrote: Barge changes do not address anything you described and were not intended to. I think I've said that several times already.
Issler
So you're stating that the changes weren't intended to remove the concept of "plateauing" into a "top tier" ship, which instead they merely changed to the Mackinaw from the Hulk? Interesting. It sure seems like that was a stated goal, and that you'd have an opinion on where they might have went wrong. Also, far from making botting more difficult, the new ore bays made it easier. I suppose it's a good thing they weren't intended to address any of the changes you felt were important. Otherwise, you'd actually have a reason to comment here. In the discussion we had prior to your election, you insisted there were plenty of options for miners besides giving them a giant bag of hitpoints to mine in. The quotes I brought up were among those, and I felt they were relevant to what we saw in the changes. Apparently you disagree with yourself. Two faces of CSM Issler Dainze? Forum readers can now decide for themselves.
What about more interesting mining content in plan and coming do you not understand. Miners are not complaining about the barges and honestly those changes were going to happen even if I didn't like them because they were in plan before CSM 7 even took office, so maybe you should go find someone in CSM 6 to troll.
Issler |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2183
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Posted - 2012.10.08 20:55:00 -
[8] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:What about more interesting mining content in plan and coming do you not understand. Vapourware, until we actually see proof of development. You really have no clue what the barge changes were supposed to accomplish. do you? You really paid that little attention to anything CCP was saying in the run up to those changes? The AFK CSM Representative. Perfect rep for the mining profession. Do you intend to run for CSM8, Issler?
Actually I am sure you are right. Nothing is ever coming out in Eve again, CCP is sitting around working on absolutely nothing. Since you can't see them coding they most not be coming out with anything new....
You can find out what the intention was for barges here since you seem to be too lazy to look ship rebalancing
No plans for CSM 8.
Issler |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2183
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Posted - 2012.10.08 23:19:00 -
[9] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Snow Axe wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Snow Axe wrote:... but it's gotta be more satisfying than lobbing this many words at low-hanging fruit like Issler, right? The more Issler posts, the more stuff we have to link too should he/she decide to run for CSM8. Ohhh I get it, you're one of those people that believe votes happen because of issues! But enough votes can probably be swung to ensure she/he doesn't get a seat, if he/she decides to run again.
Good luck with that.
Issler |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2183
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Posted - 2012.10.08 23:28:00 -
[10] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:You can find out what the intention was for barges here since you seem to be too lazy to look ship rebalancing And they failed. Everybody uses a Mackinaw (if they have the skills) no matter the situation. The success of a project is not based on whether miners are shedding tears. It based on whether the design principles were achieved. They definitely were not.
Something that didn't work as intended in Eve!!! Never!!!
The barge stats were bounced off all of the CSM 7 and no one saw any major issues. You seem to think the changes are a total failure. I am not seeing fires burning in Jita over this, How about ask some of the other CSM how such a horrible thing escaped their attention as well.
Mostly, this move along, nothing to see here.......
Issler |
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Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2183
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Posted - 2012.10.09 02:31:00 -
[11] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:You can find out what the intention was for barges here since you seem to be too lazy to look ship rebalancing And they failed. Everybody uses a Mackinaw (if they have the skills) no matter the situation. The success of a project is not based on whether miners are shedding tears. It based on whether the design principles were achieved. They definitely were not. Something that didn't work as intended in Eve!!! Never!!! The barge stats were bounced off all of the CSM 7 and no one saw any major issues. You seem to think the changes are a total failure. I am not seeing fires burning in Jita over this, How about ask some of the other CSM how such a horrible thing escaped their attention as well. Mostly, this move along, nothing to see here....... Issler But you said you didn't think giving miners a big bag of hit points was necessarily the solution to fixing mining. If you didn't think that was the solution, and you were concerned about botting, why didn't you see the ore bay and the EHP buffs and raise a red flag? Were you influenced by peer pressure from the other CSM members or in some other way under duress? I just don't get where the disconnect happens, unless you were duped by the extra yield, convenience, and survivability. All of which were Trojan Horses you claimed to be aware of and against. Congratulations.
I don't see barge changes as bad and most miners are happy with the barge changes. The reality is all other ships have evolved over time and adding some HP to barges is probably overdue. Sorry you don't like them. I am sure there is some other part of Eve you can find to enjoy since the horror of the barges clearly has you no longer mining.
No miner would not vote for me over the barges, you need to do better.
We aren't getting anywhere with the barge trolling, how about start attacking me over crime watch, I am sure that is already in queue....
Issler
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Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2183
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Posted - 2012.10.09 04:40:00 -
[12] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:
nonsense about evil barge changes
I keep offering my opinions, but you want to ignore them.
I certainly didn't drive the barge changes. I find them, given that every other ship in Eve has been continually buffed in one manner or another and new more powerful ships get added, like new T2 and even T3 that are often used to blow up folks mining, adding a buff to long neglected barges seems logical. I am glad the barges got the luvin' they did. You can still gank a barge, you just need to work harder at it. Now the effort and cost to "interfere" with a miner is more even.
For me to answer your question about the "value of mining" we have to agree as to how to measure it. Because I would argue that it isn't isk per hour, but are miners happier per hour. Since a lot of miners are more casual in their play styles I think the barge changes are considered by most miners as improving the "value" of mining, which is to say, their enjoyment and desire to mine.
To prove me wrong you need to show some actual data to show miners are unhappy with the changes and like mining less.
There is as straight forward an answer as there can be.
Miners happy = barge changes added "value" to mining
since you seem to like formulas.
also
barge changes = CSM 7 said "looks good"
not
barge changes = just Issler supported them
Issler
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Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2184
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Posted - 2012.10.18 16:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
Darth Gustav wrote:Devaluing Mining as a ProfessionYup!!! That looks really great for new players who think they want to be miners... I'd like to note these guys can't be touched by smartbombs, either, due to anchored containers. Less risk. Easier to bot. Less engaging. Everything miners wanted but you claimed they didn't, Issler. But what miners really want is not good for Eve. That might be tragic, I guess, but that tragedy does not make it untrue.
Have you noticed you are pretty much the only person in this thread. There is no giant gathering of miners complaining about what you claim is bad for them. I expect you aren't a miner and just want to troll because you now find it harder to harass miners.
As to the REAL comment you made about belt depletion. CCP has discussed changing the spawning process from the "over down time" thing we have now to a dynamic spawn like grav sites since I was in CSM 2. I am hoping we see that as part of the larger mining changes that are in plan now.
Issler |
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