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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 22 post(s) |
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CCP Fallout
C C P C C P Alliance
171
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Posted - 2011.09.30 18:57:00 -
[1] - Quote
Now on Singularity: Time Dilation. Watch CCP Vertias' new video blog for a personal demo on how we are winning the War on Lag. CCP Fallout Associate Community Manager EVE Online @ccp_fallout |
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Chaos Incarnate
Faceless Logistics
270
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Posted - 2011.09.30 18:58:00 -
[2] - Quote
Cool video, and I approve of the content 100%
Is the camera panning slowdown something we might be able to turn off? It sounds like it'd be a bit irritating, tbh. |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
197
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
2nd.. :) CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog What does CSM 6 do? |
Darius III
Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.
140
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:02:00 -
[4] - Quote
\P/ Hurray for GGB?
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Thebriwan
LUX Uls Xystus
10
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
Whoooooooooot!
\o/
This is endless fun - no more whining about lag - the forums will have their bandwidth halved |
Two step
Aperture Harmonics K162
197
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Also, the most important part of this blog is that Veritas' hair is growing back. CSM 6 Alternate Delegate @two_step_eve on Twitter My Blog What does CSM 6 do? |
Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial Rooks and Kings
233
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:06:00 -
[7] - Quote
Awesome :-) Member of CSM 2, 3, 4 and 5. Vice-Chairman of CSM 6 |
Seleene
Body Count Inc. Pandemic Legion
183
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:07:00 -
[8] - Quote
No pink Afro? I AM DISSAPOINT!!!! Seleene's Sandbox - My Blog, where I say stuff. Follow Seleene on Twitter |
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Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises Otherworld Empire
386
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:07:00 -
[9] - Quote
What a friday this turned out to be!
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Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
52
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:07:00 -
[10] - Quote
I would love some more information about the actual mechanics. For example,
- Does the effect affect everything running on one node? One system? One grid? - What are the implications for items and abilities crossing node boundaries? I.e. cynoing or bridging from a healthy node to a dilated one? - How does TD interact with various POS and sovereignty timers? - You mentioned "several hundred" ships, I counted about 200 - 250 in the video (I counted 50 - 60 ships in one quarter of the ball and multiplied by 4, no, I'm not that much of a nerd). The TD counter was at about 70% at the beginning of the fight, and steadily at 50% during the rest of the video. How well does this scale with massive engagements, say, 500 ships per side? |
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Zirse
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
76
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:12:00 -
[11] - Quote
\o/ |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
85
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:12:00 -
[12] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:- Does the effect affect everything running on one node? One system? One grid? - What are the implications for items and abilities crossing node boundaries? I.e. cynoing or bridging from a healthy node to a dilated one? - How does TD interact with various POS and sovereignty timers?
- Everything on the node. Not ideal, but it was the simplest implementation to get the idea out there. We may sometime change it to be system-specific but there are no plans currently. - Jumping/Cynoing in is not treated specially. You jump, you land, you proceed slowly. - POS and Sov timers do not dilate. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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Cailais
Nasty Pope Holding Corp Talocan United
44
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:14:00 -
[13] - Quote
Impressive. Most impressive.
C.
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Raivi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
11
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:14:00 -
[14] - Quote
I want to have your manbabies Veritas.
Gridlock ftw. |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects
35
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:19:00 -
[15] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Abdiel Kavash wrote:- Does the effect affect everything running on one node? One system? One grid? - What are the implications for items and abilities crossing node boundaries? I.e. cynoing or bridging from a healthy node to a dilated one? - How does TD interact with various POS and sovereignty timers? - Everything on the node. Not ideal, but it was the simplest implementation to get the idea out there. We may sometime change it to be system-specific but there are no plans currently. - Jumping/Cynoing in is not treated specially. You jump, you land, you proceed slowly. - POS and Sov timers do not dilate.
Nice whats the next project
CrimeWatch???? |
bldyannoyed
Estrale Frontiers
0
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:22:00 -
[16] - Quote
Really could do with getting rid of the camera and targetting effect (and in fact any UI) dilation. Whats the point of developing a system that will help beat lag if you then go out of your way to make everything still look like its lagged to hell?
I dunno about you but stuttery cameras and stuff are just going to irritate the hell out o fme. |
Shamrock1
McWOOKIE'S REVOLOUTION
3
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:23:00 -
[17] - Quote
I do not approve! How are you supposed to make real time target calls when the server it self is slowed? How is a logi pilot supposed to rep the members of its fleet when time is slowed? |
Nex apparatu5
Not a Shell Corp
0
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:23:00 -
[18] - Quote
The first thing I noticed?
This takes place in Poitot, the only named system in Syndicate. |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
85
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:24:00 -
[19] - Quote
My spies are telling me some folks aren't seeing how or why that helps them in an overloaded situation. If you are one of those people, please go refresh up on my mountain of words on the subject then come berate me with questions. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
85
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:27:00 -
[20] - Quote
bldyannoyed wrote:Really could do with getting rid of the camera and targetting effect (and in fact any UI) dilation. Whats the point of developing a system that will help beat lag if you then go out of your way to make everything still look like its lagged to hell?
I dunno about you but stuttery cameras and stuff are just going to irritate the hell out o fme.
The advancement of time changes rarely enough that I really wouldn't call it stuttery. The goal was to convey that time is, in fact, slowed. There's no point in pretending its not. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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leich
Sad Panda'z Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
1
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:31:00 -
[21] - Quote
Love the Idea. I understand That it will help people be able to make good calls in large fights,
I Dont get the UI elements slowing down. It just makes the game look Laggy. I thought thats what this was trying to prevent.
Camera locking Indicator ect should run at normal speed and as smooth as Possible (Normal).
I Understand that modual timers should run slowly just not the other Ui Elements.
I also dont like the idea of it effecting an entire node. It should only effect the Grid or system at the extreme not the whole node.
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
85
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:36:00 -
[22] - Quote
leich wrote:I Dont get the UI elements slowing down. It just makes the game look Laggy. I thought thats what this was trying to prevent.
That's not what we're trying to do at all - we're not trying to hide that the server is overloaded, we're trying to make the server overloaded in a way that maintains game mechanics and keeps things responsive. Select UI was brought over to the dilated clock in order to help convey how slow the universe is moving. It's a hard thing to judge without seeing it live.
leich wrote:I also dont like the idea of it effecting an entire node. It should only effect the Grid or system at the extreme not the whole node.
I don't particularly like that either, but it simplified the implementation enough to the point that this could actually be done. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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leich
Sad Panda'z Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
1
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:41:00 -
[23] - Quote
From what my guys are saying on TS.
People really dont like the UI slowing Down. We Prefer the Idea of Hiding the Lag we knows its there were being told by the indicater it;s there we dont want our UI showing it aswell.
Hope this helps. |
Myxx
Atropos Group Celestial Imperative
70
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:44:00 -
[24] - Quote
I appreciate your humor,
Quote: and how it applies to Caldari family reunions.
I laughed pretty hard, also impressive and shiny video. you get a +1 from me. well done.
also where on your list is crimewatch? :p
also yeah, what the person above me said... any way to keep ui speed as normal, or is it all attatched? |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
3
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:44:00 -
[25] - Quote
i love you veritas!! nice work btw! =)
hopefully those that arent well versed in the initial stages of planning out time dilation will catch up as to why this is going to be the most awesome addition to TQ yet!
i would say that maybe the slowed camera pan speed might not be the best but i can understand why u did it, i think....
(to make the act of manipulating stuff in space slower so people are unlikely to do that much more in a dilated mode in comparison)
even so, couldnt help smile when i saw those missiles slow down! i guess the mass test will also test a fleet jumping into a dilated node to see if the jump doesnt de-sync people?
for all of u who area little clueless, afaik TiDi was ment to re-dress the mechanics of fleet combat when systems lag out, which also means when jumping into a system with heavy fighting, u shouldnt de-sync or appear as a lockable target untill uve loaded grid etc...
=) =) =) |
Dalton Vanadis
Miranda United F0RCEFUL ENTRY
408
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:46:00 -
[26] - Quote
So, will nodes be mapped slightly more humanly? As in will neighboring systems be put onto the same node, so you end up with geographic time dilation, which might make jumping in and out of systems less of a shock transition. Plus, it might mean you end up with less nodes being dilated. Isn't the current methodology for mapping node completely unrelated to how players see the map?
Otherwise, cool stuff, can't wait to play with it live |
Shasz
Angels of Anarchy
1
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:54:00 -
[27] - Quote
Awesome stuff.
My Comments:
I was curious to see how the effect played out on the module activation rings of the ship you were flying - but you didn't demo that part.
The target lock spinning-deally-bobber is a little annoying, but a good indicator of the progress of things relative to the dilation.
The camera panning around stuttery will be frustrating - hand-eye coordination expects fluid movment, not unpredictable pauses while dragging the view around, in order to be precise.
Next video, show more ships. Show TONS of ships. Bring it to its KNEES and show us how gracefully it doesn't die. :)
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Nirnaeth Ornoediad
Clan Shadow Wolf Fatal Ascension
4
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:55:00 -
[28] - Quote
I agree that slowly the camera speed doesn't do much, and may make the UI feel laggy (even if modules don't get stuck, etc.). Camera preferences can be changed, I think, but still...
The UI indicates--such as the rotating triangles over the target picture--are a nice touch, though, and combined with icons moving more slowly (and, presumably, gun animations) should be enough to say "this node is being dilated".
Btw, my recommendation is to *not* have the dilation indicator on by default, but to only turn it on if the node is running at less than 100%. The UI is complex enough for new players.
Well done, though. |
StimpyCat
Nexus Advanced Technologies Fidelas Constans
0
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:56:00 -
[29] - Quote
So I love the idea about being able to actually hit something with my missile regardless of how many people are on the node. But the first thing that strikes me is that if it truly is time dilation, does that mean it effects other services as well.
For instance, would the following be effected by the slowdown?
- POS Timer - Planetary Interaction - Skill Training - Market orders - etc (things that are effected by the progress of time)
But say those things ARE effected by the time dilation, would that not put those on that node out of sync with the rest of eve. Would that further mean that there needs to be a "catch up" that needs to happen to bring those on that node,back into sync with normal eve time?
Sorry if this has already been answered, but this is the first time I've seen this example of time dilation, so I am assuming that some of the ideas are pretty new.
Hot Jets!
StimpyCat |
Choans
Invicta.
0
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:57:00 -
[30] - Quote
explain to me pls.
the time slows down to let the server keep up with a high workload...
and the whole node is effected.
how much is the "time" slowed down... will it effect gameplay in terms of having backup being formed up on a non effected node having more time
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Pandi V
LowProfile
2
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Posted - 2011.09.30 19:59:00 -
[31] - Quote
Looks pretty awesome Veritas, go buy yourself some Exotic Dancers on my account!
Would still wish the UI and camera didn't have to slow down as well, so that only the actual ships and weapons moved slower while you could still interact normally with the interface.
Oh and more videos like this please! Seeing a good looking guy with an awesome beard talking about new features can melt the heart of even the most bitter vet! Alternatively you could simply record one of your female co-workers (or Manifest) reading the devblogs aloud.... mm yes that should do |
Dradius Calvantia
Creative Cookie Procuring Rote Kapelle
24
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Posted - 2011.09.30 20:01:00 -
[32] - Quote
^
Correct, the main purpose of this is not to hide lag, but to ensure that when the system is lagging things still happen in the correct order. Which is not what happens now.
Also, I am assuming that the demo was running either completely on the devs own computer, or a lower spec test server. The Tranquility server should be able to handle much more load before having to resort to this especially on a reinforced node. (Unless I am completely wrong about just how much load a drake blob can add to the server. Stupid missiles.)
Last thing: I do not often run into fights of more than about 40 V 150 (We like to go poke test space occasionally and they don't leave POSes with less than that to counter our AHAC fleets) so I am not to sure exactly how much this will affect me. I am curious how ever, if this will help counter the situation where modules set to active while lock is still being achieved fail to active for several seconds after the target is locked.
This has been very annoying while flying a RSBed back tackle ship, as nearly every time you manage to get a lock on a cloaky, bubble immune T3, they just warp out anyway thanks to module lag. Nothing worse than seeing the target box come up, yelling point, and then seeing it warp off anyway... |
leich
Sad Panda'z Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
1
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Posted - 2011.09.30 20:04:00 -
[33] - Quote
Dradius Calvantia wrote:^
Correct, the main purpose of this is not to hide lag, but to ensure that when the system is lagging things still happen in the correct order. Which is not what happens now.
Also, I am assuming that the demo was running either completely on the devs own computer, or a lower spec test server. The Tranquility server should be able to handle much more load before having to resort to this especially on a reinforced node. (Unless I am completely wrong about just how much load a drake blob can add to the server. Stupid missiles.)
Last thing: I do not often run into fights of more than about 40 V 150 (We like to go poke test space occasionally and they don't leave POSes with less than that to counter our AHAC fleets) so I am not to sure exactly how much this will affect me. I am curious how ever, if this will help counter the situation where modules set to active while lock is still being achieved fail to active for several seconds after the target is locked.
This has been very annoying while flying a RSBed back tackle ship, as nearly every time you manage to get a lock on a cloaky, bubble immune T3, they just warp out anyway thanks to module lag. Nothing worse than seeing the target box come up, yelling point, and then seeing it warp off anyway...
Pro Tip dont call point untill you see it show up in your log! |
Kyoko Sakoda
Veto. Veto Corp
3
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Posted - 2011.09.30 20:10:00 -
[34] - Quote
Is there any way to keep the frame rate of the scene and the UI elements when dilation is on? The server may perform better under these conditions, but it doesn't look very visually pleasing, and that's not the way I prefer to play. |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
177
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Posted - 2011.09.30 20:11:00 -
[35] - Quote
One video shows more than 1000 words.
Looks great, works great, solves many problems,doesn't break the game, isn't just eye candy. Well done, 10/10.
keep up the good work, grey Forum fix for firefox and chrome Get working images and colored text Classic forum style 2.25final |
TornSoul
BIG Gentlemen's Agreement
2
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Posted - 2011.09.30 20:13:00 -
[36] - Quote
- Keep the slow(er) moving target indicator - It's a nice touch. - Don't touch the camera! Seriously... - The TD indicator needs some work, so it fits with the rest of the UI look&feel. Perhaps integrate it into the current HUD somehow (extra ring or whatever)
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Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
8
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Posted - 2011.09.30 20:17:00 -
[37] - Quote
If possible can we have a ghosted grey and in the background normal-speed target spin on the target indicators behind the new slower spin I think that would visually make it neat and give some sort of indication on how actually slower the game is in a more aquired sense I think it was.
Camera speed I disagree with, when you adrenal rush you typically are more sensitive to all stimuli thus if anything camera should move faster but it defaultingly moves fast enough as it is.
Also we do wished you demoed the module clocks. Also is the load on the thin clients just the same if they decided that hey I want 7 individual launchers spaced one second part on 7 second launchers as to opposed to the cluster group fire? |
Denidil
The Graduates Morsus Mihi
99
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Posted - 2011.09.30 20:25:00 -
[38] - Quote
ok some of you guys are not getting the point of this system. this is the last gasp mechanic for the server to keep the game playable when all other optimizations fail (and they will - every time CCP ups the ability of the game to handle players on a node, we just cram more players in).
right now without this system you get unresponsiveness, and disparate impact. some people are fully able to act - they can shoot, kill, main and destroy everything around them. other people never even load grid for hours. this is an ungraceful degradation of service quality
the time dilation system system replaces that mess above with a graceful degradation that equally affects all players - that is time slows down.
keep that in mind when you critique the behavior of the system. Anyone who is blue to DRF are cowards and have failed Eve.
MM Bombers, Best Bombers |
TheLostPenguin
Surreal Departure
0
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Posted - 2011.09.30 20:27:00 -
[39] - Quote
Can't wait for the breakages this will cause once it's rushed live onto tq, should be some hilarious fountains of tears
Also please make it so there's an option to NOT have the entire ui crap out by design at the very least, tbh taking a client that (I assume) can render camera movement etc perfectly normally and breaking it is just pure stupid, having the eggtimer popup and seeing module cycles slow is all the info I'd want personally, by all means have the judder effects an option for those that like it, just fix it for the rest of us BEFORE you release it not after months of forum bitching...
Also also you really need to get it down to system-wide only not entire node dilation, I can see the rage already once someone figures out which systems are sharing a node with some other alliances staging system/favourite ratting systems and proceeds to merrily lagbomb said node into oblivion. Don't say it won't happen because frankly it will simply down to it being so obvious |
Dorian Wylde
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
12
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Posted - 2011.09.30 20:30:00 -
[40] - Quote
bldyannoyed wrote:Really could do with getting rid of the camera and targetting effect (and in fact any UI) dilation. Whats the point of developing a system that will help beat lag if you then go out of your way to make everything still look like its lagged to hell?
I dunno about you but stuttery cameras and stuff are just going to irritate the hell out o fme.
It's not there to defeat lag, it's there to make everyone lag equally rather than having a few people with nothing and a few who can't do a thing.
Ui lag is part of lag. There's nothing that can be done about it.
leich wrote:From what my guys are saying on TS.
People really dont like the UI slowing Down. We Prefer the Idea of Hiding the Lag we knows its there were being told by the indicater it;s there we dont want our UI showing it aswell.
Hope this helps.
You don't speak for anyone but yourself, so please try to avoid using "we" in your comments. |
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Di Mulle
8
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Posted - 2011.09.30 20:36:00 -
[41] - Quote
Shamrock1 wrote:I do not approve! How are you supposed to make real time target calls when the server it self is slowed? How is a logi pilot supposed to rep the members of its fleet when time is slowed?
Exactly the same as before, just in a more predictable way, which is essence of TD.
CCP is unable to implement simpliest things. Like settting to hide signatures. So they sweep it under a rug . Children do that in their pre-shool years, CCP does it being adults. Probably because it is fearless enough. |
TornSoul
BIG Gentlemen's Agreement
2
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Posted - 2011.09.30 20:36:00 -
[42] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote: Ui lag is part of lag. There's nothing that can be done about it.
Err no.
How fast you can, say, move your camera is utterly disconnected from the state of the server (it burning to a cinder or not)
*Your* GFX might not be able to handle everything shown on screen - Thus starting to stutter.
But the two are completely disconnected.
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leich
Sad Panda'z Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
2
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Posted - 2011.09.30 20:37:00 -
[43] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:bldyannoyed wrote:Really could do with getting rid of the camera and targetting effect (and in fact any UI) dilation. Whats the point of developing a system that will help beat lag if you then go out of your way to make everything still look like its lagged to hell?
I dunno about you but stuttery cameras and stuff are just going to irritate the hell out o fme. It's not there to defeat lag, it's there to make everyone lag equally rather than having a few people with nothing and a few who can't do a thing. Ui lag is part of lag. There's nothing that can be done about it. leich wrote:From what my guys are saying on TS.
People really dont like the UI slowing Down. We Prefer the Idea of Hiding the Lag we knows its there were being told by the indicater it;s there we dont want our UI showing it aswell.
Hope this helps. You don't speak for anyone but yourself, so please try to avoid using "we" in your comments. |
Bienator II
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
154
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Posted - 2011.09.30 20:51:00 -
[44] - Quote
all HUD and UI animation should really run at unchanged speed. The game simulation, like explosions etc should be dialated of course.
But dilating UI is unnecessary and will cause *unnecessary* bad perceived game performance. Its not about hiding dialation, its just to get the best out of it. You fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail you fail to jump because you are cloaked |
Junior Frog
Jump Frog
2
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Posted - 2011.09.30 20:57:00 -
[45] - Quote
I'm curious about the time disjunct of dilation being used advantageously. For example, in a large fleet battle, podded characters can appear outside the dilated area and then return to the fight. Inside the battle system it will appear as if only a very short time has passed since the pilot was killed. Any information on how time dilation is integrated into the rest of the EVE clock? |
Jonathan Priest
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
2
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Posted - 2011.09.30 21:05:00 -
[46] - Quote
Junior Frog wrote:I'm curious about the time disjunct of dilation being used advantageously. For example, in a large fleet battle, podded characters can appear outside the dilated area and then return to the fight. Inside the battle system it will appear as if only a very short time has passed since the pilot was killed. Any information on how time dilation is integrated into the rest of the EVE clock?
Large fleet battles happen slowly anyways so people have plenty of time to reship and get back. And it's not a bad thing. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
48
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Posted - 2011.09.30 21:11:00 -
[47] - Quote
Junior Frog wrote:I'm curious about the time disjunct of dilation being used advantageously. For example, in a large fleet battle, podded characters can appear outside the dilated area and then return to the fight. Inside the battle system it will appear as if only a very short time has passed since the pilot was killed. Any information on how time dilation is integrated into the rest of the EVE clock?
Remember thats what happens now with a lagged out fight. TiDi does not really give an advantage to the returning pilot comared to the present situation with lag, it just makes it fair for everyone in the fight.
Also, if you request a dedicated node for a big fight, then only the one solar system on that node will see TiDi.
CCP Veritas: any possibility of getting a number for the little TiDi level indicator, otherwise known as Gamma? Starting at 100% and dropping as things slow? Also the stuttering is sort of annoying. And if Gamma got down to 10% or 5%, the slowing of the UI panning or typing would be a major annoyance.
Other than that looks really nice. CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
48
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Posted - 2011.09.30 21:19:00 -
[48] - Quote
Jonathan Priest wrote:
Large fleet battles happen slowly anyways so people have plenty of time to reship and get back. And it's not a bad thing.
Not only that, but the returning pilot will not be looking at a black screen for 5 minutes after jumping in, only to have it replaced by a view of his new clone. He will be able to contribute to the fight. CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. |
Darirol
Cold Steel Evolution Against ALL Authorities
3
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Posted - 2011.09.30 21:22:00 -
[49] - Quote
that video is not such a great eye candy, but as a 0.0 grunt i cant wait to see this going live.
:thumbsup: |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
85
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Posted - 2011.09.30 21:30:00 -
[50] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:CCP Veritas: any possibility of getting a number for the little TiDi level indicator, otherwise known as Gamma? Starting at 100% and dropping as things slow? Also the stuttering is sort of annoying. And if Gamma got down to 10% or 5%, the slowing of the UI panning or typing would be a major annoyance.
There is a tooltip when hovered over on the latest internal build. I still think you're the only one calling it Gamma though
Typing doesn't get slowed down, and, client performance willing, things are still smooth. The client in this video was struggling a bit due to ZOMG MISSILES while also being Frapsed ><
The camera speed slowing down does get pretty unwieldy down in the 15-10% range. I'm going to see if I can sanely decouple it, since feedback seems pretty united there...we'll see how good my code-fu is. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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Renan Ruivo
Hipernova Vera Cruz Alliance
49
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Posted - 2011.09.30 21:37:00 -
[51] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:CCP Veritas: any possibility of getting a number for the little TiDi level indicator, otherwise known as Gamma? Starting at 100% and dropping as things slow? Also the stuttering is sort of annoying. And if Gamma got down to 10% or 5%, the slowing of the UI panning or typing would be a major annoyance. There is a tooltip when hovered over on the latest internal build. I still think you're the only one calling it Gamma though Typing doesn't get slowed down, and, client performance willing, things are still smooth. The client in this video was struggling a bit due to ZOMG MISSILES while also being Frapsed >< The camera speed slowing down does get pretty unwieldy down in the 15-10% range. I'm going to see if I can sanely decouple it, since feedback seems pretty united there...we'll see how good my code-fu is.
With time dilation i was under the impression that fights with 200, 300, 500, 1000 people would go as smooth (FPS wise) as fights with.. you know.. 20, 30, 50 or 100 but it would be in slow-motion as in your armor repairer takes 100 seconds to cycle instead of 10, but the enemies gun will also take 100 seconds to cycle instead of 10.
About effects, i can have very smooth FPS with over 100 NPC RATS shooting me with lasers so the effects are the same as players shooting lasers i suppose.
So in that video demonstration of yours.. if you had turned off missiles, turret effects, brackets etc and didn't had fraps turned on, time would dilate but would the FPS remain the same? Or would it drop to 10 or 12 like it was in the video (seemed 10 or 12..)? Sometimes the only difference between a budding genius and a blooming idiot is where they chose to take a stand. |
Anja Talis
Mimidae Risk Solutions
2
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 21:38:00 -
[52] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote: The camera speed slowing down does get pretty unwieldy down in the 15-10% range. I'm going to see if I can sanely decouple it, since feedback seems pretty united there...we'll see how good my code-fu is.
|
Daedalus II
Helios Research Combat Mining and Logistics
43
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 21:38:00 -
[53] - Quote
Like most others I'd also like to see the UI not affected by the slowdown. And as someone said, in the ideal world it would be completely disconnected from the server state and internal update loop.
However, I'm pretty sure the client is so crappily coded that it in fact has a connection between the UI updating and the update loop anyway. For example you see that the entire client freeze every time you stack a large amount of stuff, or when the overview updates. Had the UI been standalone this wouldn't happen. Therefore CCP, in their quest to get as much use with as little change as possible, has simply changed the clock (update loop) in the dilated systems, and this carries over to the client and it's internal update loop which then also decreases framerate, unfortunately.
In my opinion it would have been much better with a client coded in C++ with a separate thread for the UI. But now it's in python (which sucks at multithreading) and we probably have to live with that and the connected freezes and update loop dependency during a foreseeable future. |
leich
Sad Panda'z Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
2
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 21:42:00 -
[54] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:[quote=Vincent Athena]CCP Veritas: The camera speed slowing down does get pretty unwieldy down in the 15-10% range. I'm going to see if I can sanely decouple it, since feedback seems pretty united there...we'll see how good my code-fu is.
Im sure you have a black belt in code-fu so this will be no problem at all :)
|
Ur235
Mind Games. 0ccupational Hazzard
2
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 21:48:00 -
[55] - Quote
I like it couldnt really care less if the camera is slowed down and the ui is also slowed down, as long as what i shoot gets hit then im fine with all the other things being slowed down
We know its not the perfect soloution to it but it will certainly help hopefully |
Raivi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
11
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 21:49:00 -
[56] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote: The camera speed slowing down does get pretty unwieldy down in the 15-10% range. I'm going to see if I can sanely decouple it, since feedback seems pretty united there...we'll see how good my code-fu is.
I'm gonna add my voice to the din saying that I'd also appreciate this change if you can pull it off. Camera moving lag is generally an indication of client lag instead of server lag, so I think it would feel unintuitive to many players as a signal that time is slowed. |
Dradius Calvantia
Creative Cookie Procuring Rote Kapelle
25
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 21:57:00 -
[57] - Quote
leich wrote: Pro Tip dont call point untill you see it show up in your log!
1. In these situations, it is quite common for the warp scram notification to come up in your log anyway, even though the target has already warped off.
2. If you are wasting screen space, and information scanning time on the log, you are doing it wrong.
3. I of course did not literally mean that everyone calls out point over coms every time this happens. Forgive the small bit of artistic license used to convey the sense of disappointment missing a target snag thanks to module lag causes.
4. When are you guys going to go back to missioning in carriers so we can kill them with a couple man BC gang again? |
leich
Sad Panda'z Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
2
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 22:07:00 -
[58] - Quote
Umad?
|
Mirei Jun
Right to Rule THE UNTHINKABLES
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 22:07:00 -
[59] - Quote
Something to actually be excited about in Eve! This is innovation -not some avatars in a room.
Things have come a long way already since the days where Eve was unplayable in large fleet battles. This will improve them even more.
For those complaining over the fact this affects an entire node, and not just particular systems:
Major fleet lag affects entire nodes. You would know this had you ever been involved in skirmish fights on the same node a large fleet battle was occurring. Therefore it is reasonable and required to slow down the entire slice of virtual space.
|
Malcom Dax
Blacklight Incorporated Broken Chains Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 22:12:00 -
[60] - Quote
I approve of this product and/or service.
I'll add my voice to the 'dont-slow-down-the-UI' crowd though. For what its worth, I dont mind the targeting spinny-triangly-square thing rotating slower, but it would be better if the camera and everything else worked at normal speed.
With regards to this, are things like the speed of the right-click pop-up menu affected by TiDi? |
|
Jaggins
Ixion Defence Systems Tactical Narcotics Team
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 22:20:00 -
[61] - Quote
Does this mean I can't blame my stupid mistakes that get me killed on lag anymore?
Good job, and I also agree about trying to avoid the UI slowdown if possible. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
49
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 22:20:00 -
[62] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:CCP Veritas: any possibility of getting a number for the little TiDi level indicator, otherwise known as Gamma? Starting at 100% and dropping as things slow? Also the stuttering is sort of annoying. And if Gamma got down to 10% or 5%, the slowing of the UI panning or typing would be a major annoyance. There is a tooltip when hovered over on the latest internal build. I still think you're the only one calling it Gamma though .
Actually I'm not. Everyone who works with Relativity, where the term Time Dilation comes from, calls the time rate ratio Gamma. I'm just going with the majority. CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. |
|
CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
87
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 22:42:00 -
[63] - Quote
Vincent Athena wrote:Actually I'm not. Everyone who works with Relativity, where the term Time Dilation comes from, calls the time rate ratio Gamma. I'm just going with the majority.
Hey, you get your facts right out of here. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
|
GeeShizzle MacCloud
3
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 22:45:00 -
[64] - Quote
hehe! =) |
Lady Zarrina
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 22:52:00 -
[65] - Quote
Sounds cool. To be a total **** about it though, the server is slow so now we have a meter to tell us it is slow?
I know I know, it is way more than that, and that is not what you are doing, but ... perhaps a video showing us two identical setups. One with time dilation and one without. Then this would plainly show us how awesome this is. Allocate resources to FiS |
Sanyo Santiago
Small Town Hitmen
0
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 23:13:00 -
[66] - Quote
Is time dilated server-wide or on a system-by-system basis? |
Razin
The xDEATHx Squadron Legion of xXDEATHXx
52
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 23:29:00 -
[67] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:bldyannoyed wrote:Really could do with getting rid of the camera and targetting effect (and in fact any UI) dilation. Whats the point of developing a system that will help beat lag if you then go out of your way to make everything still look like its lagged to hell?
I dunno about you but stuttery cameras and stuff are just going to irritate the hell out o fme. The advancement of time changes rarely enough that I really wouldn't call it stuttery. The goal was to convey that time is, in fact, slowed. There's no point in pretending its not. Is there any reason why the user interface performance can't be divorced from the time dilatation effect? I can just see the shitstorm if TD goes live in this state... |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
49
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 23:39:00 -
[68] - Quote
Sanyo Santiago wrote:Is time dilated server-wide or on a system-by-system basis?
Node-by-node basis. Most nodes run several solar systems that are close to each other and all on that node would get slowed. But if you requested a reinforced node for a big fight you will get just one solar system on that node, and when it goes into TiDi, just one solar system will be affected. CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
49
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 23:40:00 -
[69] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Vincent Athena wrote:Actually I'm not. Everyone who works with Relativity, where the term Time Dilation comes from, calls the time rate ratio Gamma. I'm just going with the majority. Hey, you get your facts right out of here.
Never! Get an umbrella, because its raining cold had facts. CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. |
Hatsumi Kobayashi
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
7
|
Posted - 2011.09.30 23:52:00 -
[70] - Quote
Have you tested specific situations under time dilation yet, such as bombing runs, logistics module and so on so forth, or have you kept testing to seeing if time is actually slowed down to allow proper gun cycling, leaving the rest to the SiSi mass tests?
While it's really cool to see that things seem to be working as previously advertised, I can't wait to see/feel/hear about TD's effects on other common fleet mechanics that are currently more than a little wonky in current heavy lag. |
|
GeeShizzle MacCloud
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 00:27:00 -
[71] - Quote
not sure if veritas will enjoy this bit of test server tomfoolery but frapsed some stuff done tonight that was interesting and fun when it comes to Time Dilation... hope u guys like btw!
http://youtu.be/qgXp0S0-wPA |
Lord Helghast
Intergalactic Syndicate Nulli Secunda
33
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 01:18:00 -
[72] - Quote
it looks good, but honestly wish there were more signs that it was slowing down so it doesnt just look like u're pc running slow maybe motion blur on camera swing or something....
only other thing that bugs me is ... its stuttering its not a smooth dilation theres visible skips in the rockets which feels patchy |
Faith Sunstrider
Manufact Co.
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 02:02:00 -
[73] - Quote
I'm indifferent about time dilatation: I'm not going to join a large battle anyway.. But I'm really happy to see that someone in CCP is hearing the player's feedback. Good job Veritas! |
Kossaw
H A V O C Cascade Imminent
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 02:28:00 -
[74] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:not sure if veritas will enjoy this bit of test server tomfoolery but frapsed some stuff done tonight that was interesting and fun when it comes to Time Dilation... hope u guys like btw! http://youtu.be/qgXp0S0-wPA
Oh wow. Nice demo there. It clearly shows how the camera movement and graphic effects are dependent only on the client performance, while the server is now able to gracefully control the lag generated by the number of objects. I'm really looking forward to seeing how this works in action on TQ.
Veritas, please don't stop this tomfoolery. You're dealing with lag, making Eve look good and making people happy. This is not what we expect from CCP. Thanks man.
|
Wolfcan
EVE University Ivy League
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 02:48:00 -
[75] - Quote
Dorian Wylde wrote:It's not there to defeat lag, it's there to make everyone lag equally rather than having a few people with nothing and a few who can't do a thing.
Ui lag is part of lag. There's nothing that can be done about it.
Rubbish, module lag and targeting lag are absolutely crucial for this to work. But the panning of the camera is 100% client side and SHOULDN"T be juttery.
BTW, CCP, good work. If these small problems can be ironed out, it'll be an incredibly popular addition to the game. |
Fallicious
Felherrnhalle
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 02:59:00 -
[76] - Quote
Wow, instead of just being laggy, we now have a color indicator to tell us what we can already tell by the actions onscreen... Why fix major game issues when you can pull people's attention from those issues with a little sleight of hand. Hurray? |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 03:05:00 -
[77] - Quote
Fallicious wrote:Wow, instead of just being laggy, we now have a color indicator to tell us what we can already tell by the actions onscreen... Why fix major game issues when you can pull people's attention from those issues with a little sleight of hand. Hurray?
STFU, if u wanna hate then go hate in ur own corp forum, ur just proving to everyone that ur a complete moron! |
Andrea Griffin
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 03:11:00 -
[78] - Quote
What surprised me the most about this video is how hot Veritas is. : > It's not you guys who need to repair what has been broken, it's us. CCP Wrangler |
Dex Tera
The Dex Initiative
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 03:17:00 -
[79] - Quote
Ccp tbh this looks like the bigges load of crap ever all i see is lag and a little lag counter I will say it was clever to call lag time dilation that way u can divert ur resources to a me monacel it's sad that they cant fix it so they just lie to us and say the lag is a new game mecanic it's a. Sad day in new Eden ppl |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 03:33:00 -
[80] - Quote
sad to see haters hate... well i guess people like dex have to do something when frustrated that their square peg isnt going in the round hole. |
|
Forum Bug
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 03:38:00 -
[81] - Quote
Will this only be utilised in large fleet battles, or are some other forces at work that states when servers gets lagged out by x (say Jita) this mechanic is initiated? I am also guessing things like putting stuff on the markets are affected? I am also keen to understand a little more about how Aggression timer is affected as that lasts for a very short period and has the possibility to be exploited ? Such as would it ever be possible in a lagged out system to initiate aggression and then jump before concord reacts, just out of interest is concord affected by time dilation ?
|
Trikill
Nasgul Collective Cascade Imminent
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 03:54:00 -
[82] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:sad to see haters hate... well i guess people like dex have to do something when frustrated that their square peg isnt going in the round hole.
Ha ha, exactly! People who are thinking this is just a lag meter seem like they are missing a very important part of their brains.
Time dilation seems like a very creative way to mitigate lag issues like de-sync or delayed module response... good thinking CCP :) |
Bloodpetal
Mimidae Risk Solutions
44
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 04:20:00 -
[83] - Quote
As long as we have time dilation, can we go into slow motion travel through the fight on a camera - seeing bodies get sucked out into vacuum through your ship in slow motion and various embellishments which would make people go - OMG.
You know you want it NOSTRO AURUM NON EST AURUM VULGI |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 04:30:00 -
[84] - Quote
Forum Bug wrote:Will this only be utilised in large fleet battles, or are some other forces at work that states when servers gets lagged out by x (say Jita) this mechanic is initiated? I am also guessing things like putting stuff on the markets are affected? I am also keen to understand a little more about how Aggression timer is affected as that lasts for a very short period and has the possibility to be exploited ? Such as would it ever be possible in a lagged out system to initiate aggression and then jump before concord reacts, just out of interest is concord affected by time dilation ?
afaik, and this was talked about at great length on the old forums, it will only appear when the amount of calls to the 'space/combat simulating' engine of eve gets too much for it to process immediately. Im still not tooo sure how it will cope with a big fleet jumping into a system thats already dilated, but thats for a mass test to trial out.
markets shouldnt be affected.
the aggression timers i believe will be dynamically lengthened depending on the severity of the time dilation. this works because all areas of pvp (or navigation/combat) get affected to the same degree. So activating that aggression and getting out of system will take longer than normal. And respectively, concord will probably react as swiftly as it does now but in slow motion, same as you.
TBH i think its best to describe TiDi's effects on things as 'True' timescale effects, and 'simulated' timescale effects.
ie. true DPS is the real DPS ur ship is doing in a dilated system based on a RL second of time, and 'simulated DPS' is the 'on-paper' or eft dps you more commonly use and remember from things like Eve Fitting Tool.
(i used DPS here cause most people will know what it is, and also because it has a now changable part... the 'S' for second) |
Swayzz
ROC Deep Space
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 07:57:00 -
[85] - Quote
so ccp could never get rid of lag ...they have tried for 3 yrs ... and now one of the highly paid monkys has said lets put a little clock on lag and call it time dilation.... and all the little boy's and girls are happy ......
could we not spend some money on eve instead of the crappy console games your making and actullay fix it ? more servers = less load= less lag .. |
Will DestroyYou
Republic University Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 08:16:00 -
[86] - Quote
Concerns: 1. This does not fix the underlying problem; all it is will do is make people bring even more numbers.. and then we will end up back where we started (I give it less then a month). 2. Dilation for players is different to lag, HOW???
The only permanent fix is to: 1. Make alliances split up their forces. 2. Force alliances to stay smaller. 3. End huge NAPfests. 4. Make the blobber pay for it with lag. We are all aware of the game's limitations - Exploting server lag is cheating and should be handled as such.
Thanks for trying, but this was just a bad idea from the start. |
Tusko Hopkins
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 09:04:00 -
[87] - Quote
CCP Veritas, nice blog but it would have been a great if you had activated those missiles on your drake, with and without time dilation. Ultimately, what we want to see there is better client responsiveness in large scale battles.
|
ThisIsntMyMain
Republic University Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 09:10:00 -
[88] - Quote
Will DestroyYou wrote:Concerns: 2. Dilation for players is different to lag, HOW???
Lag = UNCONTROLLED degradation of the server, missed requests ie the enemy guns fire and yours don't, modules stick, free cap for active hardeners, you dying on a blackscreen and never loading grid.
TiDi = Everyone gets a FAIR SHARE of the server time. All requests are serviced - ie your guns fire at the same rate as everyone else, modules cycle slowly at the same rate as everyone else, no free cap for your active modules, slow loading into system but no dying on a black screen and waking in station.
I.e. its completely different.
No it doesnt "remove" lag but it does give us the best "fix" that you can expect.
|
ThisIsntMyMain
Republic University Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 09:16:00 -
[89] - Quote
Tusko Hopkins wrote:CCP Veritas, nice blog but it would have been a great if you had activated those missiles on your drake, with and without time dilation. Ultimately, what we want to see there is better client responsiveness in large scale battles.
See this post -> https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=123446#post123446
The Client is 100% responsive even when the Server is completely stopped. - Of course you cant actually shoot anything because the server is paused, but neither can anyone else.
|
|
CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
90
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 09:37:00 -
[90] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:not sure if veritas will enjoy this bit of test server tomfoolery but frapsed some stuff done tonight that was interesting and fun when it comes to Time Dilation... hope u guys like btw! http://youtu.be/qgXp0S0-wPA I enjoy it enough to quote it up again so more people see it ;) CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
|
|
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
90
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 09:40:00 -
[91] - Quote
Hatsumi Kobayashi wrote:Have you tested specific situations under time dilation yet, such as bombing runs, logistics module and so on so forth, or have you kept testing to seeing if time is actually slowed down to allow proper gun cycling, leaving the rest to the SiSi mass tests?
While it's really cool to see that things seem to be working as previously advertised, I can't wait to see/feel/hear about TD's effects on other common fleet mechanics that are currently more than a little wonky in current heavy lag. Habakuk and myself have tested a fair bit of what can be done with 2 dudes and a small army of robots, but things like proper bombing runs just aren't doable with that kind of setup. You guys should totally come do bombing runs in mass tests (with coordination with Habakuk please~) CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
|
|
CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
90
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 09:47:00 -
[92] - Quote
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:Will DestroyYou wrote:Concerns: 2. Dilation for players is different to lag, HOW???
Lag = UNCONTROLLED degradation of the server, missed requests ie the enemy guns fire and yours don't, modules stick, free cap for active hardeners, you dying on a blackscreen and never loading grid. TiDi = Everyone gets a FAIR SHARE of the server time. All requests are serviced - ie your guns fire at the same rate as everyone else, modules cycle slowly at the same rate as everyone else, no free cap for your active modules, slow loading into system but no dying on a black screen and waking in station. I.e. its completely different. No it doesnt "remove" lag but it does give us the best "fix" that you can expect. These are good words that deserve to be read again by anyone who's still unclear on why Time Dilation helps. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
|
Schmell
Russian Thunder Squad Against ALL Authorities
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 10:12:00 -
[93] - Quote
Ehm...why the user interface (camera, spitter etc) is slowing down in the first place? I thought time dilation is server side and should not affect strictly client-side things |
|
CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
90
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 10:20:00 -
[94] - Quote
Schmell wrote:Ehm...why the user interface (camera, spitter etc) is slowing down in the first place? I thought time dilation is server side and should not affect strictly client-side things Because I want to convey the slowdown to the player. In essense, make space *feel* slower when it really *is* slower. Do note that it's only a couple UI elements plus the camera, and I might go back on the camera one. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
|
Cedric deBouilard
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
29
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 10:27:00 -
[95] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Because I want to convey the slowdown to the player. In essense, make space *feel* slower when it really *is* slower. Do note that it's only a couple UI elements plus the camera, and I might go back on the camera one. Go back on the camera one, bring it back to normal speed, but keep the rotating target reticule slow (most of us are used to see it slow down when lag / low fps occurs, so its almost natural to keep it slow)
but think of it this way, we'd love to fraps /record time dilated massive fights, and smooth camera movement would be much appreciated :) |
Will DestroyYou
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 10:31:00 -
[96] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:ThisIsntMyMain wrote:Will DestroyYou wrote:Concerns: 2. Dilation for players is different to lag, HOW???
Lag = UNCONTROLLED degradation of the server, missed requests ie the enemy guns fire and yours don't, modules stick, free cap for active hardeners, you dying on a blackscreen and never loading grid. TiDi = Everyone gets a FAIR SHARE of the server time. All requests are serviced - ie your guns fire at the same rate as everyone else, modules cycle slowly at the same rate as everyone else, no free cap for your active modules, slow loading into system but no dying on a black screen and waking in station. I.e. its completely different. No it doesnt "remove" lag but it does give us the best "fix" that you can expect. These are good words that deserve to be read again by anyone who's still unclear on why Time Dilation helps.
Fair share of server time??? Seems to me a fair share should favor the ones not exploting the node. eg: slow down the larger blob more.
Do you honestly believe that people won't just bring more people, leading to dilation + server lag anyway? No matter what you do, alliances are going to max things out. Always have, always will. Unfortunately this is going to do increase people's need to NAP even more.
This said, I appreciate the effort being put in, and this is better then nothing. But why not a permanent fix? Some alliances wouldn't like it initially (namely, the same ones that are usually the problem), but they need to adapt for the good of the game instead of exploiting the server limitations.
Fix the source of the problem. The blobs. You don't need 1000 (or 2000 with this dilation system) people firing on a single target. Change the game mechanics to split them over multiple targets (optimally in multiple grids or even systems). Change the mechanics to make NAPfests a disadvantage. Change the game to make alliances pay a price for becoming bloated.
|
Daedalus II
Helios Research Combat Mining and Logistics
43
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 10:51:00 -
[97] - Quote
Cedric deBouilard wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Because I want to convey the slowdown to the player. In essense, make space *feel* slower when it really *is* slower. Do note that it's only a couple UI elements plus the camera, and I might go back on the camera one. Go back on the camera one, bring it back to normal speed, but keep the rotating target reticule slow (most of us are used to see it slow down when lag / low fps occurs, so its almost natural to keep it slow) but think of it this way, we'd love to fraps /record time dilated massive fights, and smooth camera movement would be much appreciated :) How about having a switch in the menu so you can have the camera slowed down together with TiDi if you want to (to make epic videos with smooth camera moves for example) or at normal speed for the normal player that just want responsiveness in the battle. |
Tusko Hopkins
HUN Corp. HUN Reloaded
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 11:15:00 -
[98] - Quote
CCP Veritas, another quick question: if the server decides to dilate the time, it obviously has to communicate this to the client as well. Because of this, for a short while the simulation speed of the client and the server will be different. Isn't this going to introduce some sort of desync for fast-moving ships? |
KFenn
Percussive Diplomacy
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 11:23:00 -
[99] - Quote
Great blog Veritas, +1.
Just a question though, why is everyone so bothered about the UI slowdown? Veritas has already said that it's only certain animations that are being slowed down, I can't imagine any things that the player interacts with directly will be less responsive.
The UI will play the same, it'll just look slower, which is the best way of showing dilated time IMHO. I'd rather have that than the little icon in the top-left. Commanding Officer of the Treacle Tart Brigade SLAPD Director |
Jackk Hammer
Peace Million Foundation Shadow of xXDEATHXx
1
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Posted - 2011.10.01 11:33:00 -
[100] - Quote
I'm curious as to whether it will solve the problem of bombs travelling 100km+ or not moving at all in extreme lag. |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
90
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Posted - 2011.10.01 11:39:00 -
[101] - Quote
Tusko Hopkins wrote:CCP Veritas, another quick question: if the server decides to dilate the time, it obviously has to communicate this to the client as well. Because of this, for a short while the simulation speed of the client and the server will be different. Isn't this going to introduce some sort of desync for fast-moving ships? Excellent question. When the server decided to slow down time, the decision is delayed for two seconds in order to smooth over that difference. Instead of being "Hey, I'm going to slow to .5 now!" It's "Hey, I'm going to slow to .5 time in 2 seconds, just so you know". This allows the server and client to apply the event at the same time and keep a much tighter sync.
If network conditions are bad enough that the event doesn't arrive in time, then the secondary simulation clock synchronization kicks in, which tries to smooth out the difference until the two times are back in sync. It should be reasonably smooth and such. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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Debir Achen
EVE University Ivy League
0
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Posted - 2011.10.01 11:40:00 -
[102] - Quote
Two thoughts:
(1) Part of me wants to see a little "arrow" indicator denoting whether server load is getting worse / better / stable, purely as a way of predicting whether time is about to get more or less dilated. But the wiser part of me says that this indicator would add UI complexity without any real corresponding increasing in accuracy (a fleet jumps in, and it's going to go from "improving" to "more dilated" real quick).
(2) One concern: action spamming. Say my ship is being popped, and I quickly start spamming warp-out to get my pod away. There's a practical limit on how fast I can spam this command, but my understanding is that each "click" queues up an action on the server, most of which are redundant (because they arrive before or after the pod spawns). No consider if time is running 1/4 speed: I can fill the queue with 4x as many useless operations (and still only 1 useful one).
Is the load of these "extra" events significant? If so, is there a way to tweak the client-server protocol so that the desired event gets processed in a reasonable manner - allowing for potential lag and hand-shake time between client and server - without filling the event queue with lots of useless events? |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
90
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Posted - 2011.10.01 11:42:00 -
[103] - Quote
Jackk Hammer wrote:I'm curious as to whether it will solve the problem of bombs travelling 100km+ or not moving at all in extreme lag.
If dilation is able to bring the load down to what the server is capable of, then yes, bombs will behave normally.
What I mean by that is that I do plan to have a lower limit on how slow we allow time to go (probably 10% speed). If the load is so extreme that going 10% speed isn't enough to keep up, the existing "method" of dealing with overloading will start to happen and bad things like this will crop up again. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
4
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Posted - 2011.10.01 11:50:00 -
[104] - Quote
personally from a cinematic standpoint, i liked the slower camera movements, it was no where near slow enough to impede combat or navigation imho... it added some ability to smooth movement and give u time to really control what you're centering ur camera on!
idbe very dubious about adding some motion blur if the camera will be freed from slower movement. Could possibly add it as an advanced feature of the camera menu, so frapers can have the option of using it. but keep it off as a default. |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
90
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Posted - 2011.10.01 11:51:00 -
[105] - Quote
Debir Achen wrote:Two thoughts:
(1) Part of me wants to see a little "arrow" indicator denoting whether server load is getting worse / better / stable, purely as a way of predicting whether time is about to get more or less dilated. But the wiser part of me says that this indicator would add UI complexity without any real corresponding increasing in accuracy (a fleet jumps in, and it's going to go from "improving" to "more dilated" real quick).
(2) One concern: action spamming. Say my ship is being popped, and I quickly start spamming warp-out to get my pod away. There's a practical limit on how fast I can spam this command, but my understanding is that each "click" queues up an action on the server, most of which are redundant (because they arrive before or after the pod spawns). No consider if time is running 1/4 speed: I can fill the queue with 4x as many useless operations (and still only 1 useful one).
Is the load of these "extra" events significant? If so, is there a way to tweak the client-server protocol so that the desired event gets processed in a reasonable manner - allowing for potential lag and hand-shake time between client and server - without filling the event queue with lots of useless events? Regarding 1 - It's very difficult to predict the future...don't even know how I'd go about making something like that remotely useful.
2 - Yep, this is something I will be monitoring once we go live with it. A great many of those types of requests get shot down quickly, so they are quite cheap, but they do represent a type of load that slowing down time does not lower. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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GeeShizzle MacCloud
4
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Posted - 2011.10.01 11:54:00 -
[106] - Quote
well veritas u can give a few numbers on what 10% speed means for a typical node and what it would be able to deal with right?
afaik the numbers are pretty impressive, let alone what TiDi would do to the performance of a reinforced node! |
Fenaire
Eye Of The Deceiver Means TO Oppression
0
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Posted - 2011.10.01 11:55:00 -
[107] - Quote
They renamed LAG as Time Dilation and called it a feature? |
Malcom Dax
Blacklight Incorporated Broken Chains Alliance
5
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Posted - 2011.10.01 11:56:00 -
[108] - Quote
Not sure if this has been asked before, but in one of the videos thats been posted time gets stopped showing that this is possible. In reality, what is the most that time will dilate to? Will it slow-down as much as it has to in order to cope or is there a level that it will not go past? Will it ever stop while it catches up?
Edit: Also, +1 awesome for responding to this thread on a saturday |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
91
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Posted - 2011.10.01 12:01:00 -
[109] - Quote
Malcom Dax wrote:Not sure if this has been asked before, but in one of the videos thats been posted time gets stopped showing that this is possible. In reality, what is the most that time will dilate to? Will it slow-down as much as it has to in order to cope or is there a level that it will not go past? Will it ever stop while it catches up? Edit: Also, +1 awesome for responding to this thread on a saturday
Yes, I can pause Eve. It feels good bro.
The plan for the automatic dilation system is to limit it to going no slower than 10% of normal time. The game feels very, very slow at that point, and I'm not sure I want an automated system to be able to make it turbo-slow. I may do such things manually, we'll see.
The client may, if it loses sync with the server clock, slow down to a stop (or speed up past normal speed) in order to regain synchronization. But, unless a dev or GM is explicitly pulling the levers, the server should not stop time on its own with the current implementation. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
91
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Posted - 2011.10.01 12:07:00 -
[110] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:well veritas u can give a few numbers on what 10% speed means for a typical node and what it would be able to deal with right?
afaik the numbers are pretty impressive, let alone what TiDi would do to the performance of a reinforced node!
It's heavily dependent on what behaviors are being exercised. Some things grow linearly in load, like shooting lasers at a single object - that load grows almost entirely with the number of lasers. Other things grow more quadratically, like launching missiles, where it scales both with the number of missiles being launched but also the number of people who witness it. The worst is things that grow cubically, namely AoE weaponry which scales on the number of shots, then the number of targets, then the number of witnesses.
But from what I've seen, "general" fleet fight behavior is somewhere between linear growth and quadratic growth. If we take a slightly pessimistic view and it grows quadratically, then doubling the number of people fighting will cause time to slow down by 4x, so if an 800 player fight is lag-free on a reinforced system these days (which is often true), then 1600 will be run at about 25% time. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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AngelFood
No C0de
0
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Posted - 2011.10.01 12:13:00 -
[111] - Quote
Time dilation; Previously known as lag, now controlled by game ai. Great |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
4
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Posted - 2011.10.01 12:43:00 -
[112] - Quote
SOZ FOR THE WALL OF TEXT! bahh!!
name and shame time once again!
Swayzz wrote:so ccp could never get rid of lag ...they have tried for 3 yrs ... and now one of the highly paid monkys has said lets put a little clock on lag and call it time dilation.... and all the little boy's and girls are happy ......
could we not spend some money on eve instead of the crappy console games your making and actullay fix it ? more servers = less load= less lag ..
Fenaire wrote:They renamed LAG as Time Dilation and called it a feature?
AngelFood wrote:Time dilation; Previously known as lag, now controlled by game ai. Great
you all need to go back to school and become intelligent, and if you currently do go to school then u should go back to watching cartoon network instead of showing everyone how impressively dumb u are. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
4
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Posted - 2011.10.01 12:43:00 -
[113] - Quote
Will DestroyYou wrote: Fair share of server time??? Seems to me a fair share should favor the ones not exploting the node. eg: slow down the larger blob more.
Currently server lag favours the force creating the server lag, cause theyre typically the ones that have loaded grid and are in system making all the requests to the server.
what you're saying is **** fairness i want the server to dedicate all its processing to ME!
Will DestroyYou wrote: This said, I appreciate the effort being put in, and this is better then nothing. But why not a permanent fix? Some alliances wouldn't like it initially (namely, the same ones that are usually the problem), but they need to adapt for the good of the game instead of exploiting the server limitations.
you have to come to terms that there will ALWAYS be server limitations. Eve's customer base isnt near the size of some multiplayer games. so its likely to increase. CCP have been adding more and more servers that are more powerful to their server farm, and creating new coding to make it perform better, but there are actual PHYSICAL LIMITATIONS that will always create some form of lag, no matter how big or complex the server farm gets. Its simple physics!
Will DestroyYou wrote: Fix the source of the problem. The blobs. You don't need 1000 (or 2000 with this dilation system) people firing on a single target. Change the game mechanics to split them over multiple targets (optimally in multiple grids or even systems). Change the mechanics to make NAPfests a disadvantage. Change the game to make alliances pay a price for becoming bloated.
Fix the cause, don't just patch up the symptoms. This is exactly why eve has always had lag issues.
you're not wrong that a huge amount of people are the cause of lag, but Eve Online is the ONLY game in the world that doesnt actually enforce limitations on player participation, in MMO's it is its Unique Selling Point and eve without it wouldnt be Eve!
on the subject of NAPs, they will happen regardless of any constructs that u place. ive been in fleets engaging only particular reds and making sure other alliances red to us, that were on grid werent shot at, on prior agreement. you cannot enforce the eradication of NAPS
Will DestroyYou wrote:*Addition* Won't slowing time also make it easier to react to enemy orders? What effect is this going to have on battles? it will mean FC's will have to get smart on what they do in the firefight and not just target call, but assess the battlefield and come up with new innovative tactics while doing what they do best. ;) |
Tiger's Spirit
Troll Hunters INC.
0
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Posted - 2011.10.01 12:45:00 -
[114] - Quote
Grey Stormshadow wrote:One video shows more than 1000 words.
Looks great, works great, solves many problems,doesn't break the game, isn't just eye candy. Well done, 10/10.
keep up the good work, grey
Please tell to me, what is great on the video ? It's a bullsh*t. A laggy video, check mouse cursor movements. I didn't see any great thing there, just missile lag and an useless,stupid idea. |
Abdiel Kavash
Paladin Order Fidelas Constans
53
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 13:09:00 -
[115] - Quote
Will DestroyYou wrote:*Addition* Won't slowing time also make it easier to react to enemy orders? What effect is this going to have on battles? Ignoring the rest of the trollpost, this is actually a good point. With TD, you will actually have the time to analyze the situation and respond to the actions of 500 hostiles before half of your fleet explodes. As a logistics pilot, I can see this as a great help.
To everyone saying that people will just bring more: there is a definitive limit on the maximum fleet size, which is directly proportional to the number of people in nullsec alliances. The largest fight to date, LXQ, involved about 3,200 - 3,400 people. And believe me, the reason it's still the record is not because people didn't try. Assuming a reinforced node can handle 600 people now (which it reasonably can), and assuming that TD affects server performance linearly, with 90% TD (i.e. 10% speed) even a battle twice the size of LXQ should be playable.
Question for Veritas, can you make time go backwards? |
Jack bubu
GK inc. Pandemic Legion
22
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Posted - 2011.10.01 13:21:00 -
[116] - Quote
Tiger's Spirit wrote:Grey Stormshadow wrote:One video shows more than 1000 words.
Looks great, works great, solves many problems,doesn't break the game, isn't just eye candy. Well done, 10/10.
keep up the good work, grey Please tell to me, what is great on the video ? It's a bullsh*t. A laggy video, just check mouse cursor movements there. I didn't see any great thing there, just missile lag and an useless,stupid idea. Need to buy pause button in Noble Exchange. Time dilation = Time dilettante CCP want to sell to us, lag like a feature. And other thing many players have desync without fleetfight, they will playing in slowmotion, because server will slowing down them? LOL Remember Veritas words: "The client may, if it loses sync with the server clock, slow down to a stop (or speed up past normal speed) in order to regain synchronization." Stop posting
forever |
Swayzz
ROC Deep Space
0
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Posted - 2011.10.01 13:25:00 -
[117] - Quote
ok you have said that there is a 2 sec pause to keep sync ... so what happens when you jump 2-3 titans into a dialated system each with 100-200 ships ... would this desync everything or pause the whole system till eveything is loaded ?
and why can't we add more servers? to eve ..is it the money or the hardware ? |
Xenial Jesse Taalo
Tactical Nyan Cat Attack Force OMNIMODUS ALLIANCE
7
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Posted - 2011.10.01 13:29:00 -
[118] - Quote
Yes decouple this business from the camera. Indication is one thing, what the player feels is another, and the speed of the camera is going to be felt more than anything. Feel feel feel. As soon as time dilation starts, everyone in system is going to be bitching in local because their camera is turning into a slug and the players will feel and hate that heavy camera.
I'm no professional here I know, but leaving the camera connected to the server's slowdown was a flipping terrible idea (or compromise). |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
91
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 13:29:00 -
[119] - Quote
Abdiel Kavash wrote:Question for Veritas, can you make time go backwards?
I can make the clock go backwards, but no systems are equipped to deal with that so it doesn't really do anything... CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
91
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Posted - 2011.10.01 13:35:00 -
[120] - Quote
Swayzz wrote:ok you have said that there is a 2 sec pause to keep sync ... so what happens when you jump 2-3 titans into a dialated system each with 100-200 ships ... would this desync everything or pause the whole system till eveything is loaded ?
I...didn't say anything about a 2 second pause to keep sync? I said changes in the advancement factor of the clock are delayed for 2 seconds so both server and clients apply the change in sync.
When a large jump-in happens, the server will react to being overloaded and pull down the dilation factor fairly aggressively. Once the ships finish loading, it will start to recover until back to full speed. At no point will time pause on the server.
Swayzz wrote:and why can't we add more servers? to eve ..is it the money or the hardware ? We can add more servers, sure. It wouldn't help this problem at all though. This problem is dealing with what happens when a single server becomes overloaded. When that happens, it doesn't matter a bit if we have 1000 other servers sitting around doing nothing - that one is overloaded and that's a problem. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
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Swayzz
ROC Deep Space
0
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Posted - 2011.10.01 13:36:00 -
[121] - Quote
Swayzz wrote:ok you have said that there is a 2 sec pause to keep sync ... so what happens when you jump 2-3 titans into a dialated system each with 100-200 ships ... would this desync everything or pause the whole system till eveything is loaded ?
and why can't we add more servers? to eve ..is it the money or the hardware ?
well it could be titans and motherships ,dreads,carriers .. all with support ... if theres a way round it it will be found and exploited ..?
so if the sever is already maxed out .. and more jump in then it would have no option either to crash or pause ?
can we not add 2 servers combined to a single system working like a raid drive ? |
Trebor Daehdoow
Dirt Nap Squad Dirt Nap Squad.
911
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Posted - 2011.10.01 13:40:00 -
[122] - Quote
I was going to +1 on the first page, but for some... reason... my... browser... started... toooooo..... ssssssss....lllllll....ooooo...wwwww..... dddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddddd....... CSM - because I have not yet plumbed the depths of my inherent masochism! CSM 6 Activities Summary | My CSM blog |
Cybele Lanier
Viziam Amarr Empire
1
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Posted - 2011.10.01 14:13:00 -
[123] - Quote
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:Will DestroyYou wrote:Concerns: 2. Dilation for players is different to lag, HOW???
Lag = UNCONTROLLED degradation of the server, missed requests ie the enemy guns fire and yours don't, modules stick, free cap for active hardeners, you dying on a blackscreen and never loading grid. TiDi = Everyone gets a FAIR SHARE of the server time. All requests are serviced - ie your guns fire at the same rate as everyone else, modules cycle slowly at the same rate as everyone else, no free cap for your active modules, slow loading into system but no dying on a black screen and waking in station. I.e. its completely different. No it doesnt "remove" lag but it does give us the best "fix" that you can expect.
Just quoting this for the benefit of people who aren't understand what's on offer, because it makes my points better. This does accomplish something, by making lag predictable, moving it to "This is kinda slow, but at least I'm doing stuff." from "An hour of staring at a black screen, then ten minutes between shots at a ship that turned out to have died half an hour ago, and then losing because half the fleet got killed before they loaded grid." |
Lors Dornick
Kallisti Industries
7
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Posted - 2011.10.01 14:20:00 -
[124] - Quote
Swayzz wrote:
can we not add 2 servers combined to a single system working like a raid drive ?
No, as has been explained several times over, the current codebase doesn't allow clustering or sharing server load of anything smaller than one system.
A design decision taken way back in the dark ages of EvE development. And not an easy one to correct without _massive_ amounts of rewrites, and most most likely a likewise massive amount of new wierd bugs ... |
Malcom Dax
Blacklight Incorporated Broken Chains Alliance
5
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Posted - 2011.10.01 14:46:00 -
[125] - Quote
Playing devil's advocate here: what about bigger/better servers?
Although I was under the impression that the Eve servers are already pretty top-end. Is there any information out there that talks about Eve's servers? |
Caius Sivaris
Dark Nexxus S I L E N T.
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 15:19:00 -
[126] - Quote
CCP Veritas, doing his best to keep people subscribed and having fun. Could CCP clone him? They could use proteins from useless waste of biomass like CCP Zynfandel. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 15:39:00 -
[127] - Quote
Malcom Dax wrote:Playing devil's advocate here: what about bigger/better servers?
Although I was under the impression that the Eve servers are already pretty top-end. Is there any information out there that talks about Eve's servers?
yahh there is tho digging it out would take a while, i know last fanfest they bought a top secret IBM super server to act as the dedicated server, that had a previously unreleased and unnamed new main board on it which was housing a previously unreleased and un-named new top of the range Intel CPU on it.
to my mind the only way CCP could do more hardware wise to their servers is to take a leaf out of that film 'Sunshine' and house the whole server farm in liquid coolant/liquid nitrogen. and thats a pretty mental and horrendously expensive thought! so right now its all about software optimisations!
i would say that CCP's code monkeys are seriously pushing python to its absolute limits. I know some critics say '**** it, write the damn thing in C' and thts kinda what theyre slowly doing. from what i remember CarbonIO and its underpinned python extensions are practically fooling python and sidestepping its main disadvantage!
it might be that in the future CCP can release itself from python, but it cant be something wished out of thin air, and it cant be something that they dedicate all their dev time to it, cause eve would suffer from being left in the shadows of other games in the marketplace. |
Swayzz
ROC Deep Space
0
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Posted - 2011.10.01 15:42:00 -
[128] - Quote
Lors Dornick wrote:Swayzz wrote:
can we not add 2 servers combined to a single system working like a raid drive ?
No, as has been explained several times over, the current codebase doesn't allow clustering or sharing server load of anything smaller than one system. A design decision taken way back in the dark ages of EvE development. And not an easy one to correct without _massive_ amounts of rewrites, and most most likely a likewise massive amount of new wierd bugs ...
then istead of running after console games market you would think that rewrite would be first on the list .. or does the pc market now stagnant because of some of the larger issues like lag and such to be over looked for the more rich rewarding console market ?
but with a player base that could be double or tripled if these things could be done not even warent a look at ? |
Akira Zendragon
EVE University Ivy League
0
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Posted - 2011.10.01 15:48:00 -
[129] - Quote
Veritas,
I'd just like to give some serious kudos for this. Being a developer, I find this is quite an elegant solution to the issue of graceful degradation. Bit of a stroke of genius, IMHO.
As to the "more hardware" approach, IIRC your current brick wall is 1 node = 1 system, right? Have you considered the possibility of 1 node = 1 grid? Granted this is probably a pretty major, hairy, overhaul of server code, but as a long term project, perhaps? |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
5
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Posted - 2011.10.01 15:51:00 -
[130] - Quote
think of it as more like.. the rewards of the one could fuel and pay for the improvements of the other! =)
if CCP unlock themselves to a wider player base, that wider player base could very well generate them more cash that they can re-invest in eve's main servers and code development to make it run faster for more people. |
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Malcom Dax
Blacklight Incorporated Broken Chains Alliance
5
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Posted - 2011.10.01 15:54:00 -
[131] - Quote
Akira Zendragon wrote:Veritas,
I'd just like to give some serious kudos for this. Being a developer, I find this is quite an elegant solution to the issue of graceful degradation. Bit of a stroke of genius, IMHO.
As to the "more hardware" approach, IIRC your current brick wall is 1 node = 1 system, right? Have you considered the possibility of 1 node = 1 grid? Granted this is probably a pretty major, hairy, overhaul of server code, but as a long term project, perhaps?
How much difference would that realistically make? From what I understand in a major fleet fight most of those involved are on the same grid anyway. I don't really see you getting a particularly big improvement in performance by doing this. At least not enough to justify the effort that would go into doing it. |
Steve Ronuken
Cossette Moana
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 16:18:00 -
[132] - Quote
Even if you get down to one node is one grid, TiDi is still worth having.
For when that grid gets overloaded. As has been mentioned, build a better server and people will just bring more ships. |
Tedric
Outcast Heroes Destructive OuTcaSts
3
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Posted - 2011.10.01 16:46:00 -
[133] - Quote
When i first heard of the idea of time dilation i loved it! It does not solve the underliying problems but it allows EVE to suffer more gracefully. I agree with most people here saying that the UI should not be slowed in its responsiveness, but everything ship based must be slowed.
If you allow the UI to be slowed in time with dilation the perception of 'This time dilation business does not work, it is still laggy' will happen and EVE will get negative PR. i.e. CCP writes code to spin wheels that do nothing.
Video: I like it.
Notes:
1. i would like to see the timer PULSE when the time dilation value CHANGES. mainly cos I want my attention drawn to it when its state changes, so i can adjust my perception of what is going on.
2. When someone is in a system next door and starts the 'jump in' process, I would like a notice saying that the system is under time dilation and an indication of how much. Not sure how I would like this done. It could be the gate looks/behaves differently or the UI jump button is coloured differently (follows the time dilation factor colour code). Personally, I would like to see this information before i commit myself to starting the 'jump in process'.
3. If a system is under heavy time dilation, would it be sensible to lightly dilate the systems surrounding it. This is to prevent the 'run around the block to the other gate' concept. It would also give an indication that 'big *&!* is going down next door' and also reduce the huge difference in time dilation values.
4. The new font: yes the 0O and 6G are clearer. I'm unsure if it is easier to read. It is certainly _harder_ to read when using the Black colour scheme.
+1 overall.
Tedric.
edit: typos. |
Malcom Dax
Blacklight Incorporated Broken Chains Alliance
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 17:12:00 -
[134] - Quote
Tedric wrote: I would like to see this information before i commit myself to starting the 'jump in process'.
Hadn't thought of that. Now you bring it up, I agree.
Tedric wrote:If a system is under heavy time dilation, would it be sensible to lightly dilate the systems surrounding it. This is to prevent the 'run around the block to the other gate' concept. It would also give an indication that 'big *&!* is going down next door' and also reduce the huge difference in time dilation values.
It was my understanding of that if TiDi is applied to the whole node and affects all the solar-systems on that node the same way. So this kind of happens anyway, in some situations.
I'm assuming that a node has a set of adjacent/near-by solar systems on it, rather than random ones. Does anyone know if this is indeed the case? Could get some interesting situations if not. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 18:11:00 -
[135] - Quote
Malcom Dax wrote:I'm assuming that a node has a set of adjacent/near-by solar systems on it, rather than random ones. Does anyone know if this is indeed the case? Could get some interesting situations if not.
yes this is the case, only 1 or 2 exceptions to this ie jita node and the dedi server used when a particular system is reinforced. |
Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
95
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 18:35:00 -
[136] - Quote
Praise be to our CCP Veritas overlord. Lykouleon > CYNO ME CLOSER SO I CAN HIT THEM WITH MY SWORD |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 19:12:00 -
[137] - Quote
nice mass test veritas! im working on a video of it atm and will post it :) have to say tho on the pos bash part when you put TiDi to 50% i swear you can see on missiles the 2 second sync checksum looping! LOL! |
I'thari
33
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Posted - 2011.10.01 20:48:00 -
[138] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Schmell wrote:Ehm...why the user interface (camera, spitter etc) is slowing down in the first place? I thought time dilation is server side and should not affect strictly client-side things Because I want to convey the slowdown to the player. In essense, make space *feel* slower when it really *is* slower. Do note that it's only a couple UI elements plus the camera, and I might go back on the camera one. Couple or not - seeing stuff moving slower plus having an indicator is "feel" enough without adding artificial UI lag to the pile. "Normal" speed is there for a reason, you know - if possible you should keep it (or just make everything slower permamently and make it new norm), not make stuff running slower than it should and call it a "feature". |
Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 20:54:00 -
[139] - Quote
Excellent!
The one things that seems odd is that you plan on also reducing the client fps when time dilation kicks in. There is no good reason for that. Just the bad one that the graphics subsystem is probably incapable of running at a different simulation speed than the physics one... |
Will DestroyYou
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 22:23:00 -
[140] - Quote
This will be a serious disadvantage to dictor (or any fast tackle ship really, bombers?) pilots.
The enemy FC has much more time to react now... |
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Will DestroyYou
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 22:34:00 -
[141] - Quote
Will DestroyYou wrote: Fix the source of the problem. The blobs. You don't need 1000 (or 2000 with this dilation system) people firing on a single target. Change the game mechanics to split them over multiple targets (optimally in multiple grids or even systems). Change the mechanics to make NAPfests a disadvantage. Change the game to make alliances pay a price for becoming bloated.
Fix the cause, don't just patch up the symptoms. This is exactly why eve has always had lag issues.
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote: you're not wrong that a huge amount of people are the cause of lag, but Eve Online is the ONLY game in the world that doesnt actually enforce limitations on player participation, in MMO's it is its Unique Selling Point and eve without it wouldnt be Eve!
on the subject of NAPs, they will happen regardless of any constructs that u place. ive been in fleets engaging only particular reds and making sure other alliances red to us, that were on grid werent shot at, on prior agreement. you cannot enforce the eradication of NAPS
All I am saying is enforce limits at a level that keeps it just under the node's ability.
-or-
Force blobs to split up with mechanics and spread the load. |
Zirse
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
76
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 22:38:00 -
[142] - Quote
Question for you Veritas- can you describe the scaling procedure?
I've heard that at tidi: 10%, 10 RL seconds = 1 ingame second/tick.
Does that mean at 90% dilation we're looking at 1.5 minutes for each in game second? That seems abusrd?! |
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CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
93
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 23:44:00 -
[143] - Quote
Aineko Macx wrote:The one things that seems odd is that you plan on also reducing the client fps when time dilation kicks in.
I never have planned that and I continue to not plan that. Where'd you get the idea that I ever did plan to do that? CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
|
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
49
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 23:44:00 -
[144] - Quote
Will DestroyYou wrote:........
Force blobs to split up with mechanics and spread the load. Have the number of guns shooting a target effect tracking and missile damage (with a max effective dps on the target being proportional to sig radius).
Basicly, fix the problem at the source.
Using game mechanics is a good idea, but so far every idea I have seen will not work. Take your example above. Fleets already subdivide into "firing groups" (all of which are on grid). With your suggestion the firing groups would be sized to minimize the penalties and maximize their total DPS. Now the fleet with the most firing groups can attack the most enemy ships at once. Hence bigger you blob the better.
You might say "make the penalties be based on fleet size". Then players will make many small fleets and blob them.
You might say "Make it based on the number of ships on your side". Then players will drop standings and use out of game tools to keep track of who is the enemy, and keep right on blobbing.
You might say "limit the number of players on one system". Then a system can be held just by filling it up with your players.
Its a really hard problem, its why we have blobs.
When you consider a possible mechanic, also think "What would the most devious metagamer do to get around it or take advantage of it"? CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
49
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 23:50:00 -
[145] - Quote
Zirse wrote:Question for you Veritas- can you describe the scaling procedure?
I've heard that at tidi: 10%, 10 RL seconds = 1 ingame second/tick.
Does that mean at 90% dilation we're looking at 1.5 minutes for each in game second? That seems abusrd?!
90% means 10 RL seconds = 9 in game seconds.
TiDi amount = ( In game seconds ) / ( RL seconds )
A values I call Gamma, after the term used in Relativity.
CCP Veritas: Really liked the test. On seeing the "slowed camera" I find its fine the way it is. I expected something much worse. But if you slow time below 10% I would leave the camera at the 10% level. CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. |
|
CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
93
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 23:52:00 -
[146] - Quote
Zirse wrote:Question for you Veritas- can you describe the scaling procedure?
I've heard that at tidi: 10%, 10 RL seconds = 1 ingame second/tick.
Does that mean at 90% dilation we're looking at 1.5 minutes for each in game second? That seems abusrd?! Gettin' the numbers switched around. The way I'm describing it, normal speed is 100%, paused is 0%, 10% is, well, one tenth of the way from paused to normal speed.
So at 10% speed, 1 simulation second takes 10 wallclock seconds. At 90% speed, 1 simulation second takes 1.11 wallclock seconds. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
|
Zirse
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
76
|
Posted - 2011.10.01 23:58:00 -
[147] - Quote
I see, thanks. |
Salpun
Paramount Commerce Masters of Flying Objects
37
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 00:04:00 -
[148] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Zirse wrote:Question for you Veritas- can you describe the scaling procedure?
I've heard that at tidi: 10%, 10 RL seconds = 1 ingame second/tick.
Does that mean at 90% dilation we're looking at 1.5 minutes for each in game second? That seems abusrd?! Gettin' the numbers switched around. The way I'm describing it, normal speed is 100%, paused is 0%, 10% is, well, one tenth of the way from paused to normal speed. So at 10% speed, 1 simulation second takes 10 wallclock seconds. At 90% speed, 1 simulation second takes 1.11 wallclock seconds.
Sounds like a good wiki artical to me. I would write it but some one would call me a lier. |
ThisIsntMyMain
Republic University Minmatar Republic
16
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 00:31:00 -
[149] - Quote
Will DestroyYou wrote:All I am saying is enforce limits at a level that keeps it just under the node's ability.
-or-
Force blobs to split up with mechanics and spread the load. Have the number of guns shooting a target effect tracking and missile damage (with a max effective dps on the target being proportional to sig radius).
Basicly, fix the problem at the source.
The "source" of the problem is Us - The players.
You cannot stop us blobbing in a system by artificially limiting numbers in the system because we will find ways to exploit this by
- Stacking those numbers in our favour by filling the system with our bigger blob before you are ready -or-
- If the attacker and defender numbers are balanced by CCP to be say 400v400, then you can forget 3 way fights, surprise hot drops, and having that hidden subcap fleet one titan bridge away.
You cannot force us to split up by using multiple simultaneous objective because you will hand a massive advantage to the defenders. Why ...
- If the attacker must complete all objectives the defender needs only to defend at one point -or-
- If the attacker must complete the majority ( say 3 out of 5), Attacker must attack 5 times, defender must defend only 3 times.
Its easy to SAY "fix the problem at source". I don't like "blobbing" any more than you do, but its a reality of Eve. I also, probably like you, really really HATE the completely FUBARed chaos that is an overloaded node.
Yes, TiDi is a compromise, but please stop whining about how you don't want it because you will only accept your own version of a "perfect" solution. |
Will DestroyYou
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 01:19:00 -
[150] - Quote
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:Will DestroyYou wrote:All I am saying is enforce limits at a level that keeps it just under the node's ability.
-or-
Force blobs to split up with mechanics and spread the load. Have the number of guns shooting a target effect tracking and missile damage (with a max effective dps on the target being proportional to sig radius).
Basicly, fix the problem at the source. The "source" of the problem is Us - The players. You cannot stop us blobbing in a system by artificially limiting numbers in the system because we will find ways to exploit this by
- Stacking those numbers in our favour by filling the system with our bigger blob before you are ready -or-
- If the attacker and defender numbers are balanced by CCP to be say 400v400, then you can forget 3 way fights, surprise hot drops, and having that hidden subcap fleet one titan bridge away.
Earlier I suggested time dilation be changed to effect the ones causing the server problems more. If people exploit this it is no different to dropping cans or any other lag causing exploit, and should be handled the same way as those. Temporary (or permanent if they are repeat offenders) bans, or other appropriate punishments.
It has been deemed "not ok" to dump large numbers of cans to create lag, where is the difference? Exploiting lag is exploting lag.
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:You cannot force us to split up by using multiple simultaneous objective because you will hand a massive advantage to the defenders. Why ...
- If the attacker must complete all objectives the defender needs only to defend at one point -or-
- If the attacker must complete the majority ( say 3 out of 5), Attacker must attack 5 times, defender must defend only 3 times.
Easy fixed by making each structure matter. eg: Add more system upgrades (including guns, NPC defenders, more levels of current upgrades, etc), and each one you do not defend means you loose something importent, decreasing your ability to defend or taking other advantages away.
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:Its easy to SAY "fix the problem at source". I don't like "blobbing" any more than you do, but its a reality of Eve. I also, probably like you, really really HATE the completely FUBARed chaos that is an overloaded node.
Yes, TiDi is a compromise, but please stop whining about how you don't want it because you will only accept your own version of a "perfect" solution.
I never said my solutions are perfect, but at least they address the cause instead of fixing the symptoms temporarilly.
Large alliances don't/won't like it for obvious reasons (and i really don't care - I want a fun game, not a laggy game), but there is a more thorough solution here (on the old forums): http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1569381
|
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el caido
School of Applied Knowledge
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 01:27:00 -
[151] - Quote
This seems like a technically-sound temporary improvement to a permanent problem. Cheers, CCP. However, disguising system/client/node lag with a spiffy 'EVE physics' excuse seems like a cup-and-ball game to me.
I hope CCP continues to work towards additional optimizations which would, ideally, replace this workaround in the future. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 04:07:00 -
[152] - Quote
Will DestroyYou wrote:I never said my solutions are perfect, but at least they address the cause instead of fixing the symptoms temporarilly. Large alliances don't/won't like it for obvious reasons (and i really don't care - I want a fun game, not a laggy game), but there is a more thorough solution here (on the old forums): http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1569381
omg that apparent solution has....
'i want to farm moon generated ISK from my safe NAP fortress deep in nullsec protected by layers of passive defensive stuff and turn Eve online into even more of a Supercaps Online than it is now!'
.............AAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall over it!
if thats your idea of fun then count me the **** out! |
Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 05:18:00 -
[153] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Aineko Macx wrote:The one things that seems odd is that you plan on also reducing the client fps when time dilation kicks in. I never have planned that and I continue to not plan that. Where'd you get the idea that I ever did plan to do that? When you showed the slowed down panning in the video the fps seemed to be tied to the simulation speed factor. Sure, scene complexity also pushes down the client fps, but this looked heavier than what I'm used to (the largest battle of eve: I was there), but it might just be that your machine is weak |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 05:23:00 -
[154] - Quote
Aineko Macx wrote:CCP Veritas wrote:Aineko Macx wrote:The one things that seems odd is that you plan on also reducing the client fps when time dilation kicks in. I never have planned that and I continue to not plan that. Where'd you get the idea that I ever did plan to do that? When you showed the slowed down panning in the video the fps seemed to be tied to the simulation speed factor. Sure, scene complexity also pushes down the client fps, but this looked heavier than what I'm used to (the largest battle of eve: I was there), but it might just be that your machine is weak
go view --> http://youtu.be/qgXp0S0-wPA
and come back enlightened |
Maldranan
Nex Exercitus Raiden.
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 06:30:00 -
[155] - Quote
Perhaps this has been asked already, but from your simulations Veritas what can we expect with regards to overall fleet fight time? If one of the goals of time-dilation is to preserve game mechanics, will that possibly have the effect of reducing the net fleet fight time, or will it increase it regardless?
For example, will the ability to properly control weapons result in killing the enemy fleet more effectively, thus reducing lag and the time-dilation amount, with a net reduction in the fleet fight time despite the time added by time-dilation? Hope that made sense. |
Will DestroyYou
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 06:32:00 -
[156] - Quote
GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:Will DestroyYou wrote:I never said my solutions are perfect, but at least they address the cause instead of fixing the symptoms temporarilly. Large alliances don't/won't like it for obvious reasons (and i really don't care - I want a fun game, not a laggy game), but there is a more thorough solution here (on the old forums): http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1569381 omg that apparent solution has.... 'i want to farm moon generated ISK from my safe NAP fortress deep in nullsec protected by layers of passive defensive stuff and turn Eve online into even more of a Supercaps Online than it is now!' .............AAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaall over it! if thats your idea of fun then count me the **** out!
What part of many mid/low HP structures instead of a few high HP ones encourages supercaps exactly?
Did you even read it?
|
Fallicious
Felherrnhalle
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 08:01:00 -
[157] - Quote
I just want to know if CCP pays GeeShizzle, or does his fan boi love for them goes so deep he can't see them spoon-feeding us bull**** and trying to pass it off in the name of innovation. "Oh hai, we make camera choppy and turn a circle from green to red, you're all welcome!!! Want monocle now for $10??" |
ThisIsntMyMain
Republic University Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 08:33:00 -
[158] - Quote
Will DestroyYou wrote:Easy fixed by making each structure matter. eg: Add more system upgrades (including guns, NPC defenders, ......
WTF? Guns and NPC defenders ? Seriously ? Do you even live in 0.0 or is that actually your real main that's lived in an Empire NPC corp all its life ?
|
GeeShizzle MacCloud
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 10:28:00 -
[159] - Quote
Will DestroyYou wrote:
What part of many mid/low HP structures instead of a few high HP ones encourages supercaps exactly?
Did you even read it?
i was on about the idea on the old forums ur championing, the only way you would be able to forcefully take sov, is sort of the waay its still done now. You'd need to lag a system out quickly to discourage defenders trying to defend, best way ive seen something do that is by blobing supers, so you'd pump supers into a system early before any timers come out, regardless of their HP. Logging in and undocking is still kind of jumping into a system and trying to load grid.. so the aggressors could kill anything desyncing.
then after the defenders call it quits/decide theres no point loosing more ships due to the server lagging out, the aggressors start raping through the low HP structures with the 100's of supers they'll have in system
High HP structures werent the reason super blobs rose to being used soo often. primarily it was to discourage defenders from trying to defend by making it more than likely, any shiney ships they use to defend, will more than likely not load grid or desync and die needlessly before accounting for any form of defence. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 11:00:00 -
[160] - Quote
Fallicious wrote:I just want to know if CCP pays GeeShizzle, or does his fan boi love for them goes so deep he can't see them spoon-feeding us bull**** and trying to pass it off in the name of innovation. "Oh hai, we make camera choppy and turn a circle from green to red, you're all welcome!!! Want monocle now for $10??"
lol obviously u never saw my post on the old forum using CCP Soundwaves actual name and calling him a disgrace to mankind with his piece in the "greed is good" scandal.
i support this idea because ive read pretty much every aspect of its development, ive heard pretty much every argument against it, and i understand how it works & how its intended to work very thoroughly! so when someone says something inherently dumb or something intended to just derail the conversation, i take it personally cause ive spent a lot of effort helping people understand it, and in my own way, developing it in the Assemley Hall. |
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AMirrorDarkly
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 12:07:00 -
[161] - Quote
Well I think this is an awesome first step.
If someone has covered this then please correct me, on lunch break on a sunday can't really read all the posts for detail.
I read that fuel/timers will not adjust due to time dialation....
I can already see the tatics forming (won't mention who we all know the guilty party will be here)
BUT.
I can see node warfare coming up, fleets of drakes engaging each other while remote repping each other just to Time dilate a node preventing haulers in another system being able to refuel/re-stront an enemy tower.
I can see this being used to interupt logistics and industrial assets without even needing to be in system to do it.
So @ Dev's How will you be looking at preventing this sort of griefing dare I ask? :D
Apart from that I love what you have done, but being a player I can already see it being taken advantage of beyond it's initial purpose.
EDIT: Oh one more thing, would it be possible to get a gate message.... you are about to jump into a time dilated system (like low-sec warning..... Particularly with cyno's :) |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
59
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 12:17:00 -
[162] - Quote
there is only one thing I have to ask about and that is how far the limit was raised with TiDi? as in, what's the theoredical limit to a battle running with TiDi at full strength?
don't get me wrong, this is a very good feature and I totally agree with it, but I can't shake that nagging feeling that this will only buy time. I hope that you guys don't forget to further improve server code and structure. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Gaia Ma'chello
V.I.C.E.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 13:24:00 -
[163] - Quote
AMirrorDarkly wrote: ...........
I can see node warfare coming up, fleets of drakes engaging each other while remote repping each other just to Time dilate a node preventing haulers in another system being able to refuel/re-stront an enemy tower.
They can do that now. Just lag the node out. The hauler would jump in, see a black screen, get a time out DC, log in and repeat, over and over, and never get to the tower.
At least with TiDi the hauler will get to the tower. It may take 30 minutes of real time, but that's better than looking at a black screen.
Eventually CCP will get dynamic re-mapping. With that they can put a system that is seeing TiDi on its own node. |
AMirrorDarkly
Ekchuah's Shrine Comporium
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 13:59:00 -
[164] - Quote
Gaia Ma'chello wrote:AMirrorDarkly wrote: ...........
I can see node warfare coming up, fleets of drakes engaging each other while remote repping each other just to Time dilate a node preventing haulers in another system being able to refuel/re-stront an enemy tower.
They can do that now. Just lag the node out. The hauler would jump in, see a black screen, get a time out DC, log in and repeat, over and over, and never get to the tower. At least with TiDi the hauler will get to the tower. It may take 30 minutes of real time, but that's better than looking at a black screen. Eventually CCP will get dynamic re-mapping. With that they can put a system that is seeing TiDi on its own node.
True enough it is an improvement to be sure.
I'm vauge about how nodes work exactly (as in which systems go to which node) without knowing the architechture which I do not believe CCP has published, it is hard to tell is it not, which systems are on which nodes?
I'm aware it is often adjacent systems, but you can get where I'm going now. Used to be you needed to basically bog down the system in question to be sure of sucessfully picking the correct node...
Now with a little dialator icon on screen it becomes much easier to tell, which systems you need to dilate with a bit of reverse mapping...
But yeah I can see what you are saying now at least you can refuel, but at the same time it becomes easier to locate and isolate which systems need stressing to make that harder.
|
Gaia Ma'chello
V.I.C.E.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 14:01:00 -
[165] - Quote
There was an issue with parsing this post's BBCode |
Havak Kouvo
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 14:11:00 -
[166] - Quote
So if say the system is dilated, will things still move at 30fps if my system could handle it?
I'd think so, but the fact the camera moves slower is making me worried. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
50
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 14:21:00 -
[167] - Quote
Oops.
In a few posts I suggested that the amount of TiDi we have should be called Gamma as Gamma is used in Relativity for the amount of dilation. Then I remembered something and checked it out.
I was defining Gamma wrong. In Relativity Gamma starts at 1.0 and increases as you get close to the speed of light. Its defined as:
Gamma = 1 / ( 1 - v^2 / c^2 )^0.5
An object moving near light speed has its mass increased by a factor of Gamma, and its clock runs slower by a factor of Gamma, relative to the stationary observer.
Anyway, its not how CCP Veritas defines TiDi, so Gamma is out. CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. |
Vincent Athena
V.I.C.E.
50
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 14:26:00 -
[168] - Quote
Havak Kouvo wrote:So if say the system is dilated, will things still move at 30fps if my system could handle it?
I'd think so, but the fact the camera moves slower is making me worried.
I did not check numbers, but in the test I normally am looking at a slide show during the big fight. But with TiDi I was not. It may actually help FPS as your computer is getting less information from the server.
Also although the camera is slowed, its not slowed by the full TiDi amount. It actually was surprisingly natural. CCP employees should never proclaim a feature to be awesome. Only subscribers should. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
59
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 14:39:00 -
[169] - Quote
Gaia Ma'chello wrote:Grimpak wrote:there is only one thing I have to ask about and that is how far the limit was raised with TiDi? as in, what's the theoredical limit to a battle running with TiDi at full strength?
don't get me wrong, this is a very good feature and I totally agree with it, but I can't shake that nagging feeling that this will only buy time. I hope that you guys don't forget to further improve server code and structure. CCP Veritas has said that a present the limit of TiDi is set to 10%, one tenth speed. He has also said that currently 800 ships is the limit before the server gets overloaded, and server load grows with ship count between linearly and quadratically. Put all those numbers together and it looks like around 3000 ships is needed to get to 10% TiDi. More ships than that and we start getting "bad" server lag. Note that both those numbers, 800 and 3000, assume a fight. Hopefully as Team Gridlock keeps working the 800 and 3000 ship count values (for the start of TiDi and its limit) will increase and we will get cool looking plots like this: http://eve-files.com/dl/248128
cool. just hope CCP continues to work on the server itself so that it can improve and thus lowering the bar even further. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Ein Spiegel
Fly-by-Night Industries LLC PTY LTD Drama Flakes
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 16:01:00 -
[170] - Quote
This may be something already out there, but...
How does Time Dilation deal with command "stacking"... for example, you're FC'ing a drake blob. So the damage isn't going to be instantaneous; you say "Primary that Wyvern" (or whatever) and watch as the missiles launch and the system gracefully slows down to squeeze all the cinematic glory out of that hellstorm of missiles. As FC, you now have time to casually browse the overview and notice someone just decloaked a covops coming up behind you. You pull your camera around, and notice that unmistakable new cyno effect in its infancy blossoming.
You (as FC) start spewing orders out as your fleet is going to be hotdropped just as soon as the appropriate clock ticks happen. As a fleet member, now, those commands start getting done (align to x, warp to planet, no cancel warp, lock covops, fire, no warp out, no ARRRRMOR HAACSSSSSS!!!)
I'm sure FCs will require some adjusting to their methodology - time dilation suddenly opens up a lot more time to second guess yourself or to get better situational awareness (and there's nothing that can be done about it; we can't dilate players... yet) but in the meantime, I am assuming that command queuing itself isn't going to be dilated... Is it possible for the player to break the time dilation's command queues? Is it a simple FIFO stack popping off commands as they are added into the system?
While typing, I realize this is going to make for some really benny hill moments - until FCs adjust - when two FCs make decisions that get to play out in slow motion but were still being screamed out at their fleets when response time mattered - when seconds mattered more because they were directly tied to real seconds. (Response time will still matter, of course - but I think FCs should be trending towards slightly more calm than we are used to hearing.) |
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Acks
RONA Corporation RONA Directorate
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.02 21:09:00 -
[171] - Quote
FIrst of all let me state for those who do not know me that I am not a CCP fan boy and rarely have a kind word for the direction of EVE in the last 2-3 years.
That being said I would like to take a moment to issue, IMHO, some very well deserved praise:
Time Dilation is an example of what, I believe, the EVE community is looking for from CCP. TD while not the "perfect world" solution, is none the less a VERY elegant solution to a very long standing and difficult technical issue in EVE. It is extremely refreshing to see a tangible fix / resolution to a long standing issue like this.
While not all issues in EVE can be tackled as directly or "easily", this type of out of the box thinking and demonstrable results is what, at our core, we all want. From initially describing the concept to us to this tangible demonstration was, for CCP, a fast turnaround.
Most importantly I would like to personally thank CCP Veritas for owning this thread and taking the time to be so actively engaged. It is very refreshing to see this level of CIVIL interaction from someone at CCP.
In summary: Thank you for your efforts in resolving this issue. Thank you for taking the time to engage with and answer the questions from us the end users.
Please keep up the good work.
ACKS RONA Corporation RONA Directorate |
Reten Kip
Everset Dropbears
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.03 02:46:00 -
[172] - Quote
Lors Dornick wrote: No, as has been explained several times over, the current codebase doesn't allow clustering or sharing server load of anything smaller than one system.
A design decision taken way back in the dark ages of EvE development. And not an easy one to correct without _massive_ amounts of rewrites, and most most likely a likewise massive amount of new wierd bugs ...
They really, REALLY, need to rewrite it in a good language. It's not like time dilation will be without bugs anyway. The first time it activates on Tranquility, the node will probably explode and take out the whole game (and remove your boot.ini at the same time). I'm just basing this on CCP's history.
This time dilation mechanic is an excellent way to address overloading. Now they need to rewrite the code base so it doesn't get overloaded with more than ten ships on the grid. |
Debir Achen
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.03 05:50:00 -
[173] - Quote
On player response times:
(1) Yes, on a dilated node you will have more RL time to analyse and respond to the tactical situation, which will slightly advantage some ships and tactics over others. That said, this is a Hek of an improvement over being completely unable to make meaningful decisions because your information and orders are being processed out-of-order and every which way up.
(2) But I'm not sure the extra time will make that much difference. If you don't know what to do, the main difference between 1s and 5s is how much panic you get to experience before it's too late. Good FCs seem to be always thinking three or four steps ahead of the current situation, and communicating this accordingly. If it only takes everyone else 0.5 seconds to apply the order, a dliated node simply means more time to watch your well-planned action play out. |
Xylorn Hasher
Mean Corp Mean Coalition
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.03 08:08:00 -
[174] - Quote
Wait... no lag?
Does it mean we can finally put hundreds of drones on gate to uncloak cloakers without breaking EULA ?? |
Kadeyaa
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.03 13:48:00 -
[175] - Quote
I can see so many ways how this can (and will) be abused.
Large alliances will be intentionally dilating systems to slow down reinforcements, to get more time bringing in their own forces, to screw with trading hubs (Just imagine Jita being at max time dilation 24/7), etc.
This would not be hard to do. Just have a couple hundred or thousand members fire up an alt, undock in a drake and shoot each other so nobody dies, but time dilation takes full effect because of the massive amounts of missiles flying around.
Hopefully this will be a lowsec/0.0/WH feature only. Most large scale engagements happen there anyway, and there's just too many ways how people can abuse this to totally mess with large hub areas or in other yet-unconceivable-ways.
While I certainly agree it's a step in the right direction, it has great potential for abuse. |
Hakaru Ishiwara
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
15
|
Posted - 2011.10.03 14:15:00 -
[176] - Quote
Debir Achen wrote:On player response times:
(1) Yes, on a dilated node you will have more RL time to analyse and respond to the tactical situation, which will slightly advantage some ships and tactics over others. That said, this is a Hek of an improvement over being completely unable to make meaningful decisions because your information and orders are being processed out-of-order and every which way up.
(2) But I'm not sure the extra time will make that much difference. If you don't know what to do, the main difference between 1s and 5s is how much panic you get to experience before it's too late. Good FCs seem to be always thinking three or four steps ahead of the current situation, and communicating this accordingly. If it only takes everyone else 0.5 seconds to apply the order, a dliated node simply means more time to watch your well-planned action play out. Welcome to EVE, the latest RTSG title to hit the market.
Next up: the pause, macro-mode and "I Win" button additions (exclusively in cyrillic!)
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ThisIsntMyMain
Republic University Minmatar Republic
17
|
Posted - 2011.10.03 14:33:00 -
[177] - Quote
Kadeyaa wrote:I can see so many ways how this can (and will) be abused.
Large alliances will be intentionally dilating systems to slow down reinforcements, to get more time bringing in their own forces, to screw with trading hubs (Just imagine Jita being at max time dilation 24/7), etc. .
Sigh, Here we go again ....
TiDi only affects the PHYSICS SIMULATION. It does not affect any timers not related to the physics simulation. So it does NOT change the reinforcement timers. Only the people suicide ganking in Jita will notice TiDi - the market is not part of the physics simulation so timing isn't affected.
Anything you can exploit with TiDi timing (eg bringing more ships, re-shipping in another sytem etc) you can ALREADY EXPLOIT by creating uncontrolled chaotic bone crushing soul destroying LAG in a system. Except that now you won't be able to crash the node after you lost 5 titans and then claim re-imbursement.
|
Grimmash
Chaos Theory Exploration
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.03 14:46:00 -
[178] - Quote
Just taking the opportunity to note:
Stated in Dev Blog on 4.22.11:
"It's a fairly big project though, so I'm comfortable saying you won't see it shipping this summer. Fall's a good possibility if things go well."
Update DevBlog showing progress and explaining developement on 10.3.11.
More of this, and lots of people will be lots happier in Internet Spaceship land. Nice work setting and meeting time lines, CCP Veritas.
And by lots, I mean alot. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.03 15:19:00 -
[179] - Quote
ThisIsntMyMain wrote: Sigh, Here we go again ....
i feel ur pain! :P |
Matalino
Ki Tech Industries
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.03 16:00:00 -
[180] - Quote
Havak Kouvo wrote:So if say the system is dilated, will things still move at 30fps if my system could handle it?
I'd think so, but the fact the camera moves slower is making me worried. Based on what was described, fps will be unaffected by time dilation. Your system will render scenes as fast as it can.
The way that I understand how the camera will be affected by time dilation is that you will simply need to move the mouse further to change your perspective. The intended purpose is to give you an interactive way of feeling how much time is dilated.
To me, slowing camera response sounds like a bad way of providing this interaction. I change my camera position to look at something different, not to feel how time is flowing. Changing the speed at which the targeting icon moves is a nice touch, but I expect that impacting how the camera moves would just be an inconvience. I expect that for most players, simply slowing the module cycle indicators will give them a clear enough impression of how time is moving. If you feel that something more is needed, then add some sort of pulsing or rotating motion to the dilation indicator. |
|
Lucas Quaan
Sniggerdly Pandemic Legion
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.03 20:24:00 -
[181] - Quote
I have been looking around and can't find any confirmation on what will happen to the self destruct and log-off timers. Presumably they will follow the dilation and not be decoupled like structures, but I would like to hear a dev say that.
Please? |
|
CCP Veritas
C C P C C P Alliance
104
|
Posted - 2011.10.03 20:51:00 -
[182] - Quote
Lucas Quaan wrote:I have been looking around and can't find any confirmation on what will happen to the self destruct and log-off timers. Presumably they will follow the dilation and not be decoupled like structures, but I would like to hear a dev say that.
Please?
They will follow the dilation and not be decoupled like structures. CCP Veritas - Senior Programmer - EVE Software |
|
GeeShizzle MacCloud
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.03 21:21:00 -
[183] - Quote
ohh wanted to post a vid of the mass testing btw as i frapsed it! =)
it is an initial test of time dilation so yes there are bugs and yes the devs know about them! but thought ud like to see!
http://youtu.be/HqLTVpc3N7k |
Will DestroyYou
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.03 22:30:00 -
[184] - Quote
Well the ceptors in the "EVE is real" video are screwed now... The enemy FC has 10x longer to react to them and tell the fleet to pop them before they get in range. So much for getting a warpin...
Eve becomes completely about spies and knowing which ships the enemy is going to bring... great!!! Not even luck can save us now!!!
|
Infinion
Awesome Corp
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.03 22:37:00 -
[185] - Quote
Will DestroyYou wrote:Well the ceptors in the "EVE is real" video are screwed now... The enemy FC has 10x longer to react to them and tell the fleet to pop them before they get in range. So much for getting a warpin...
Eve becomes completely about spies and knowing which ships the enemy is going to bring... great!!! Not even luck can save us now!!!
uhh buddy, they were doing it wrong in the first place. A Covops with probes can get a lock on any ship at sniping range in a fraction of the time (discretely too), those are what FC's should've been using in the video.
|
Kadeyaa
State War Academy Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.03 23:07:00 -
[186] - Quote
ThisIsntMyMain wrote:Kadeyaa wrote:I can see so many ways how this can (and will) be abused.
Large alliances will be intentionally dilating systems to slow down reinforcements, to get more time bringing in their own forces, to screw with trading hubs (Just imagine Jita being at max time dilation 24/7), etc. . Sigh, Here we go again .... TiDi only affects the PHYSICS SIMULATION. It does not affect any timers not related to the physics simulation. So it does NOT change the reinforcement timers. Only the people suicide ganking in Jita will notice TiDi - the market is not part of the physics simulation so timing isn't affected. Anything you can exploit with TiDi timing (eg bringing more ships, re-shipping in another sytem etc) you can ALREADY EXPLOIT by creating uncontrolled chaotic bone crushing soul destroying LAG in a system. Except that now you won't be able to crash the node after you lost 5 titans and then claim re-imbursement.
I'm not talking about reinforcement timers. I'm talking about physics simulation such as ship movement, alignment and warp speed. Supply lines will slow down immensely should this happen - and I'm pretty sure that it would have an impact on the market. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.03 23:29:00 -
[187] - Quote
Kadeyaa wrote: I'm not talking about reinforcement timers. I'm talking about physics simulation such as ship movement, alignment and warp speed. Supply lines will slow down immensely should this happen - and I'm pretty sure that it would have an impact on the market.
that may be so but keeping a system (especially a system like jita) in permanent high level TiDi would be an absolutely collossal undertaking even for the largest alliances and/or NAPs in the game!
and even after that, direct action to do such a thing in highsec may even fall into the EULA and could land people/alliances in trouble. |
Will DestroyYou
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.03 23:33:00 -
[188] - Quote
Infinion wrote:Will DestroyYou wrote:Well the ceptors in the "EVE is real" video are screwed now... The enemy FC has 10x longer to react to them and tell the fleet to pop them before they get in range. So much for getting a warpin...
Eve becomes completely about spies and knowing which ships the enemy is going to bring... great!!! Not even luck can save us now!!!
uhh buddy, they were doing it wrong in the first place. A Covops with probes can get a lock on any ship at sniping range in a fraction of the time (discretely too), those are what FC's should've been using in the video.
I know. I was just using their own video to make the point that small ships will take a giant nerf (up to 10x worse) from this. The enemy has too much time to notice you. Will they also recieve a 10x bonus to tank to compensate?
This completely shifts the ship balance in these situations. |
wicked cheese
Imperial Research Inovations
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 00:25:00 -
[189] - Quote
as a long time eve player and having 3-4 years of 0.0 fleet battle lagfests history this is undoubtedly the best solution to lag short of eliminating it all together. this seems like a great way to get rid of desynces and node crashes. anyone who's ever had to "form up in a fleet for an hour, travel an hour, and wait an hour just to find out you have to return home because theres a fleet 1/3 the size of yours on the other side of the gate" will appreciate this. ive been on the winning and loosing side of that situation. the winning side meaning using the advantage of a preloaded grid to scare enemies away and the loosing side being hundreds of people wasting 4 hours just find out there wont be a fight.
ive seen thousands of cans, drones, bookmarks, shuttles, and other **** defend a system from a larger force. i cant think of any reason to intentionally want to dilate a node unless your alliance is mostly senior citizens who could use the extra time to think. ceptors, dictors, and stealth bombers are obviously going to loose a little bit of the element of surprise advantage on a dilated node. but anyone who's been in a 500+ fight (at actual fighting range) knows it wont make a difference.
it wont help blobbing but as someone has already stated "its the players" that are responsible, who are to afraid to loose their fleets, iskprinters, and space that they will take every ally they can. system caps didnt stop it, fleet limit didnt stop it, AoE DD didnt stop it. unless you want to be the fc that tells your members they cant come because it would be to dishonorable. i remember when people complained on these very forums about 50man blobs. its blobs that have made eve the only game thats capable of having 1k+ man fights. or else nodes would still be crashing at 100 like they used to. that also means highsec. jita and all the other trade/mission hubs wouldnt be able to run becuase its the 0.0 pvpers who have pushed for development against lag. blobs have had their good and bad effects on eve, and if they continue to get larger? thats just more people yelling at ccp to work on something serious and not the nex store.
I appreciate Veritas and his team for their work they've done on this (and the feedback in this thread, best ive seen in a while). if this is all we get for a winter expansion itll be the best one since revelations. maybe ccp will add an automine or Double LP Friday for those in highsec who also want something for christmas.
Veritas im interested to know if TiDi has been used on any other MMO's? (yes or no fine since im sure you couldnt say which). also i dont like the idea of the camera being slowed down significantly but from what i understand slowing down the cursor and hotkeys actions on a client would slow down the amount of false commands being sent to the servers? would it be reasonable or even possible to make it where only 1 click or key command can be sent from the client every .5 seconds of gametime after the node reaches a certain dilated state so that people arnt just adding 2-4x as many commands as they need to by spamming F1 or other modules? since incoming commands still have to be filtered making real ones wait on a dilated node of say 75% a person would realistically have to wait a few seconds before their modules activated causing them to repetadly click and adding more to a heavy load.
sorry for the wall of text, hasnt been a devblog worth commenting on in a while. |
Monserat
ANZAC ACADEMY
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 06:59:00 -
[190] - Quote
I have a suggestion, but please, I haven't coded or looked at many computer sciency problems in a long time.
Why not maintain a ranked list of servers based on load and when one becomes overloaded start to shift some tasklets to other servers. You will still need time dilation as the speed of network I/O is obviously limited, but perhaps you could limit the number of times that time dilation needs to go sub 50%?
I know why time dilation is being implemented, predictable failure is what building engineers rely on, and so too can software benefit from it. Perhaps load-sharing across servers (or nodes) can be implemented at a later stage in conjunction with time dilation so that time does not need to be slowed to a massive extent.
This is just thinking aloud, so if it's not a good idea, that's why. |
|
Velonad Tyldamere
Blood Covenant Pandemic Legion
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 07:34:00 -
[191] - Quote
Will DestroyYou wrote:Well the ceptors in the "EVE is real" video are screwed now... The enemy FC has 10x longer to react to them and tell the fleet to pop them before they get in range. So much for getting a warpin...
Eve becomes completely about making sure you know how to probe and knowing which ships the enemy is going to bring... great!!! Not even luck can save us now!!!
Nice excuses for you apparent lack of skill and knowledge of this game. Coincidentally fixed your post for you. |
A Lunchbox
Basgerin Pirate
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 08:34:00 -
[192] - Quote
Oh great. Now instead of giant fleet battles crashing nodes, everyone will get to share the same equal crushing lag, with an onscreen meter. Can I have a dissapointment meter too? |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 09:06:00 -
[193] - Quote
A Lunchbox wrote:Oh great. Now instead of giant fleet battles crashing nodes, everyone will get to share the same equal crushing lag, with an onscreen meter. Can I have a dissapointment meter too?
yah its called your iq or your grade point average |
Tiger's Spirit
Troll Hunters INC.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 10:08:00 -
[194] - Quote
CCP will be introducing to us soon,the Turn Based EVE universum, like a feature.
Just a question, the 20 hours long battles will be 200 hours long, because time will slowing there to 1/10 ? Or no more defense against superblob, because time slowing will give to alliances more time for bring more pilots to systems from another regions because there won't slowed down the new feature their times, just the combatants only at the battlezone ?
This feature wont be solution against lag. Need another solution too. But, would be suitable for something according to me on the other hand this time dilation. Would be fine slowing down the capital ship jumps to cynosural field. This time dilation should be solution against the instant hotdrop. |
leich
Sad Panda'z Ninja Unicorns with Huge Horns
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 11:57:00 -
[195] - Quote
How will time Dialation have any effect of Cepters Steal Bombers.ect
Your Both Dialated you might be moving slower but it takes them longer to target you anyway.
Infact i think it will be a boost to bombers not a nerf.
Im sure some trolls on here's brains are already suffering time dialation! |
Candente
The Kairos Syndicate Transmission Lost
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 17:20:00 -
[196] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:leich wrote:I Dont get the UI elements slowing down. It just makes the game look Laggy. I thought thats what this was trying to prevent. That's not what we're trying to do at all - we're not trying to hide that the server is overloaded, we're trying to make the server overloaded in a way that maintains game mechanics and keeps things responsive. Select UI was brought over to the dilated clock in order to help convey how slow the universe is moving. It's a hard thing to judge without seeing it live.
The problem is not about hiding something, it is about making game exeprience as good as possible facing unsolvable problems like the kind of lag in a system that triggers time dilation. Making the UI as laggy as the server seems to an unsensible thing to do. I seriously doubt a smooth interface will make players to accuse the devs for trying to "hide the lag", as it far easier to implement a visual indicator (that is already shown in the video) so players would unmistakenly know when dilation is triggered.
I would like to call for common sense here. Wouldn't it be cool to see ships exploding and missiles traveling in slow mode like in movies? I think that's what people want (given the fact that there is no magical solution to get rid of all lags once and for all). Unresponsive interface interaction does not solve anything other than making players, who are already coping with lag, even more frustrated.
|
GeeShizzle MacCloud
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.04 21:11:00 -
[197] - Quote
tbh i dont see what all the fuss is about... yahh theres a bit of additional inertia in the movement of your view, but jesus its not like u have to throw ur mouse across the room to get some quick response from it!
its pretty easily done tbh. i swear the people complaining about the slower than normal view rotation actually werent there in the mass test or have a separate test server installation set up. |
Syekuda
Hell's Revenge
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.05 02:54:00 -
[198] - Quote
Funny question about time dilation here: How much people are or were working on this project ? |
Demangel
Blades of Oroboros
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.05 07:45:00 -
[199] - Quote
Heheh, So Time Dilation is just a fancy word for "Lag as a Feature" LOL
But seriously, if it tracks all the activities accurately as it sounds like it should, this type of slowdown is acceptable to me.
Basically, the game will LOOK Laggy, but if I hit warp out, I will warp out chronologically at the correct time in regards to the events of the battle, but it could take 3x longer to do. But in that time I will take 3x less damage, expend 3x less ammo/cap.
Unlike before where if I tried to warp out, IT would take 10x longer to be noticed by the server as I take 3x as much damage, use 4x as much ammo, and pay 100x more isk to replace my ship.
This is also a good thing because in REALLY big battles, people will have more actual real time to plan and decide what actions to take. Granted that kills a tiny bit of the adrenaline, but with 500 ships on the screen all going pew pew, having 3x longer to make a mistake really makes me feel less incompetent and mad when I DO invariably go pop. |
Heribert vonSteiner
The Pink Fluffy Carebears
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.05 08:35:00 -
[200] - Quote
Quote:- Jumping/Cynoing in is not treated specially. You jump, you land, you proceed slowly.
So I have a question about this specific topic. If a fleet is slugfesting at System A and the TD is at let's say at MAX. and a reinforcement fleet staging at System B (without TD).
SO RL Clock on both Systems A and B is 20:00 when the slugfest startet.
10 minutes later the reinforcement fleet ist all set up to hot drop the bad guys they jump WHEN will the reinforcement fleet apear on grid?
RL Clock on both systems say 20:10 but the internal clock at System A must be sometime around 20:01 because of TD
Will the jumping fleet have to wait for the internal clock to sync .. meaning they have to wait 90RL Minutes to resync?
the other posssibility would be they appear on grid at once.. meaning that they just generated 9 Eve-minutes out of thin air.
I know this is a worst case scenario.. but ... you have to think about them, too... don't you? |
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mkint
112
|
Posted - 2011.10.05 09:05:00 -
[201] - Quote
Heribert vonSteiner wrote:Quote:- Jumping/Cynoing in is not treated specially. You jump, you land, you proceed slowly. So I have a question about this specific topic. If a fleet is slugfesting at System A and the TD is at let's say at MAX. and a reinforcement fleet staging at System B (without TD). SO RL Clock on both Systems A and B is 20:00 when the slugfest startet. 10 minutes later the reinforcement fleet ist all set up to hot drop the bad guys they jump WHEN will the reinforcement fleet apear on grid? RL Clock on both systems say 20:10 but the internal clock at System A must be sometime around 20:01 because of TD Will the jumping fleet have to wait for the internal clock to sync .. meaning they have to wait 90RL Minutes to resync? the other posssibility would be they appear on grid at once.. meaning that they just generated 9 Eve-minutes out of thin air. I know this is a worst case scenario.. but ... you have to think about them, too... don't you? They'd go into the session change queue when they initiate the jump, so should show up immediately + lag. The difference between non-tidi and tidi is that:
instead of *jump*->*black screen*->*black screen*->*fresh clone*
it should be *jump*->*system loading bar*->*slo-mo combat*
What folks don't seem to understand is that all tidi is meant to do is throttle stuff so that if you push your buttons you can be confident that the server knows they've been pushed, and that the results of that button are what you'd expect on an unlagged node (just in slo-mo.)
So, yes, in theory you could have a GCC that lasts an hour. No funky "catching up" or "internal clock syncing" or any other nonsense trying to make what's a simple concept into a complicated mess. |
Imigo Montoya
Wildly Inappropriate Goonswarm Federation
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.05 10:17:00 -
[202] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:Schmell wrote:Ehm...why the user interface (camera, spitter etc) is slowing down in the first place? I thought time dilation is server side and should not affect strictly client-side things Because I want to convey the slowdown to the player. In essense, make space *feel* slower when it really *is* slower. Do note that it's only a couple UI elements plus the camera, and I might go back on the camera one.
I would sure like to see this - making the UI seem glitchy probably isn't the ideal way to convey the message that time is behaving differently, certainly not camera control.
I'm seriously impressed though, really liking what I'm seeing.
At the same time I'm somewhat confused by the people hating on this. It seems to be coming from a place of ignorance so I wrote an article on EN24 that explains the fundamentals of what TiDi is actually trying to achieve in a way that I think is accessible to anyone (ie no Computer Science degree needed).
I'd really appreciate your feedback Veritas, especially if my generalisation conflicts with how the specifics in this case actually work. |
Syri Taneka
The Perfect Storm
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.05 15:14:00 -
[203] - Quote
Heh. Seems to me it might be entertaining to watch a couple hundred bot drakes slaughter each other with extreme prejudice = P |
Dav Varan
Fatality.
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.05 18:30:00 -
[204] - Quote
Please no input lag.
Camera should point where I point it when I point it. Anything else will just be annoying and confusing.
|
Wu Phat
Super Batungwaa Ninja Warriors 0ccupational Hazzard
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.05 19:44:00 -
[205] - Quote
Max Pain meets Eve Awsome can the screen get like alittle cinamatic . Like the screen gets less color more grays blacks and whites. |
Gracillus
Afterhours Surgery Social Club TOHA Conglomerate
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.05 20:24:00 -
[206] - Quote
Have to say, I think this is a great idea. Anything that keeps eve semi playable in with a huge load on the node is a good thing, and making the lag affect (or effect - I can never remember which) everyone equally is a smart move.
But... PLEASE don't make the camera movement slow down! I have to echo the sentiments of others - this is not a needed feature, and I strongly hope that it is not implemented in the final release. Otherwise, again, great idea! |
Niel Bohr
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.06 00:56:00 -
[207] - Quote
Time dialation is a paralell with what we did in Napoleonics wargame going with full unphased turn resolution to a phased turn when armies got engaged, going back out when engagment paused etc... mirror images but basically the same concept.
Your on the right track beats the hell out of being frozen/lagged while being torn limb from limb that occurs in to many games...... |
Nekerjelnezest
Ten Below Zero
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.06 07:22:00 -
[208] - Quote
Make lag to get reinforcements. You fight at quarter speed, your enemy gets there 4 times faster if coming from other nod.
Will Jita be dilated all the time? |
Flamehaired Death
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.06 07:57:00 -
[209] - Quote
I have to agree that slowing the whole client side UI is focusing on the IRRITATION aspects of lag. Make the Time Dilation indicator bigger if you are afraid people will miss the slowing.
So let the purely UI elements of the EVE client and any super fast elements of the virtual ship instrumentation running on client hardware (like the overview) run at full speed. There is no downside to the server or game play fairness if a player looks at the situation from scores of angles. It actually is a better simulation of direct neural input than the game normally provides.
I suppose I can understand if your code tangle currently requires slowing the whole client to slow movement of the virtual world objects like missiles, ships, drones and device cycling instrumentation (scanner, weapon reload etc). But frankly camera movement and frame rate and other purely UI elements should not be directly tied to virtual world objects especially movable real-time objects inside the EVE virtual world. That is bad for the future of EVE as both virtual technology and real life computer hardware evolves. It means a lot of your objects are not truly self contained if the pure UI objects and virtual game world objects use the same master clock.
There should be at least two master clocks -- one for virtual world objects and one or more master clocks for the UI which are driven by client hardware and user configuration considerations. There maybe a synchronization factor to make the two clocks mesh smoothly in passing data, but that factor should be dynamically recalculated as time dilation goes into effect.
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Flamehaired Death
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.06 08:20:00 -
[210] - Quote
For fairness new ships coming into the grid should be put in a delay queue - stretch out that warping in effect and travel time.
If you do not -- ships that that should not have had time to travel to the battle (if the battle occurred at full speed) can totally reverse the balance of forces due to arriving during dilation. You could ambush an enemy with 3 times the ships in larger better quality fits but because the battle will take 15-20 minutes at high dilation...he might be able to call in huge numbers of ships from as far as 15 jumps away.
Basically the older the delay queue, the longer the delay for ships newly entering the queue. Roughly speaking the time in queue could computed by adding the dilation clock fraction every second to arrive at a cumulative total time since dilation began (thus 2 minutes of 50% dilation equals 1 minute hung in queue).
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Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.07 03:44:00 -
[211] - Quote
I saw the EN24 video of the test. In all fairness it shows the camera effect ALOT better than the dev video. So things look alot less "lagged"
Not the biggest deal in my opinion. At 10 percent time will be so slow anyway that anything you would NEED to do with the camera wont be affected in relation to normal time. |
KanashiiKami
Marvel Comics Galactic Labs THREE WOLF
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.07 08:24:00 -
[212] - Quote
i do not like the TIDI feature. if there is a TIDI feature it should not be full blown. it should only affect or slow down by 25% at max.
CCP SHOULD -->
1) reduce polygon count / improve GPU streamlining to improve video lag performance. and they way CCP have changed the way space looks, it doesnt look like space ... it too bright and you have too many useless cloud/debris artifacts in space that takes up GPU power. come on, even if we are not space geeks ... we see pictures of space before from star trek ... IT IS SPACE, dun try to picaso it with fluffy clouds. 2) improve network comms efficiency. you are prolly trying to send too much useless information in too many packets. 3) the ship graphics overlays are 1 of the many things that bottlenecks up the whole thing. obviously there is something very wrong with how the layers are being forced on the nurbs. simplicity would make things run faster. why would you want to spurt a red blob then ask the GPU to go over it 10000 times to make it look like a cloud ? its a disaster for the GPU. a lo res map with a few pass would do the effect even better. 4) TIDI should only be in force when too many players have too much latency differences when server is trying to sync actions across multiple platforms. and CCP should instead enforce a feature that allows delayed updates for said players with poor connections and therefore discourage poorly connected players from joining bigger fleets fights. a fleet fight is a fleet fight, if your PC/conn lags badly, u are ultimately killing ur own fun, there is the weakest link. then again, the eve game client has its own numerous problems in dealing with large clusters and GFX.
so tell me again, is CCP trying to use TIDI (a mistake) to cover up more mistakes ???
come on guys.... do it right already .... or is the ceo under paying you? ( i can understand that) you will not need TIDI, if you start to look deep into the foundation GFX issues and networks issues. WHY make GFX more complex by 100% when you do not see a 100% return on GFX visual improvement? you have to pay your engineers right to do it right CCP ... just do it already man ... |
Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.07 10:49:00 -
[213] - Quote
Useless info? Have you honestly NOT been keeping up with the MANY dev blogs on improving network and packet efficency or are you just here to troll?
GPU stuff is completely different. If your GPU is melting turn YOUR settings down. Tidi is also going to massively reduce the issues caused by low GPU FPS.
Tidi evens the playing field. And helps reduce lagploitz in large battles. In fact it adds a completely new gameplay element at high Tidi as commanders will now have time to play 3D EVE chess with the other. Manuvering Squads. Issuing multi attack orders. And prepositioning craft in anticipation will Become FARRRRRRRRRR more important at high Tidi.
This changes the game. I support it.
Tho CCP I really suggest you redo that video. Or ask to borrow some of the player footage of Sisi tidi in action to better show this. In the videos it shows the camera delay effect to be FARRRR less prevelant and what looks to be forced lag in your video isn't there.
It looks downright beautiful in those videos.
I am also getting tired of reading the BS that people are saying "Making Lag a feature" Its only lag if it takes 30 seconds for your module to activate while others are activating instantly. Lag is an unbalanced relationship not balanced as this is. This will defeat most lagsploitz and allow some of the biggest battles in EVE history with results other than capital kills.
Question tho and sorry if it has been answered. Lets say a battle of 30 v 30 starts in a random system not reported for node reinforcement both sides bring more ships and tidi starts. Soon its 500 v 500. Is there plans in the future to potentially "pause" the node and redirect everything to a reenforced node so that say 1000 v 1000 can happen or bigger at max tidi?
The reason I ask is that with the time delay it does give both sides great time to move other forces into the area to engage. This is reality as you cant Tidi the entire cluster. This will guarantee large battles I just worry that such battles wont be planned ahead of time in a normal way and will have to take place on standard nodes. Resulting in 90% Tidi battles that go on all day or longer. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.07 11:18:00 -
[214] - Quote
PROGRESS
People asked improvements about lag, talked about how this could be handled so large fleet engagements experience could be better, CCP is doing it and they're doing it the right way.
Props to you doing this job, props to CCP who's finally took the decision of doing the right thing about this matter.
Props to CSM work on this even if in some points I still disagree with you, what is right must be recognised has what is wrong.
Better Eve for bitvets, better Eve for newbs = good for "tha" game. |
Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.07 14:19:00 -
[215] - Quote
This really does show that CCP is serious about fixing the issues that matter to us.
What is great is this is going to stack with all their other improvements to allow some truly huuuuge space battles if done right. This really changes the game.
Of course this also gives extra incentive to report planned POS battles for node reinforcement. Othewise a day of POS bashing might become a week! :P |
Induc
Transport and ORE Mining Revival Of The Talocan Empire
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.07 21:37:00 -
[216] - Quote
cool, now people can have even bigger fights |
Tiger's Spirit
Troll Hunters INC.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.08 23:08:00 -
[217] - Quote
Induc wrote:cool, now people can have even bigger fights
Dont forget 10 times longer POS,TCU,StarBase bashing when systems overloaded and time dilation tunrning on there. Results ? No one go to capture any territory in 0.0, because every action will be too long without fight, because attakers or defenders will overloading systems for tactics. Who want to shot a single TCU, 24 hours long because time dilation ??? |
Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.09 03:50:00 -
[218] - Quote
That works both ways and the focus will be on defeating the bad guys so you don't have to Tidi the server so bad.
Once you defeat the enemy it will become tactics to spread your forces into other systems and leave an optimal force that can do the most DPS with the least Tidi.
And anything is better than what it is now. A large fleet fight means jumping into a black screen and waking up to a new clone. This will assure that fights actually take place and the amount of tactics needed in high tidi situations will make the game far better than the few disadvantages it brings. |
Tiger's Spirit
Troll Hunters INC.
1
|
Posted - 2011.10.09 08:36:00 -
[219] - Quote
Endeavour Starfleet wrote:That works both ways and the focus will be on defeating the bad guys so you don't have to Tidi the server so bad.
Once you defeat the enemy it will become tactics to spread your forces into other systems and leave an optimal force that can do the most DPS with the least Tidi.
And anything is better than what it is now. A large fleet fight means jumping into a black screen and waking up to a new clone. This will assure that fights actually take place and the amount of tactics needed in high tidi situations will make the game far better than the few disadvantages it brings.
You are wrong. Spread forces ? Like today ? Everyone hate lags, but what do you see there today ? Everyone go with blob and they create those lags. They go fewer there ? No, they bring more man, and generate more lag.
With Tidi wont changes this, moreover they will bring more mans to fight to single system because they would more times to bring defensive fleets there. Tidi situantions will make to the game more bad situationsthan the few advantages what will bring.
Longer boring POS bashing, boring very long TCU shot, 3x24 hours long Outpost shot. More blob because defenders got more times to gathering fleet. Longer travel times because big fleets will slowing regions and horrible jump times at gates.
Blob makes lag thats need to fix.
Need changes like, decreasing alliance member numbers and their standing possibility. No more 3k number corps and alliances.
Need changes moon harvesting rules, like dispro or other moons shouldn't have infinite mineral, it would yield it, alliances would be obliged to changes regions and fight for new territories and moons.
Need changes the area maintenance prizes rules. Many big blob hold too much area and system, because those system prizes is ridicuolus low. Like this: 1 system mainaince cost 1x factor, and incraesing this factor (2x,3x,4x) when they wants to possess more systems. This would be chance to hold 1-2 territory for small groups, but harder for huge captured systems for big entities (superblob alliances with over 3k members).
Need smaller groups, not need more superblobs and slow-mo fights, because thats create super lag and blackscreens. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.09 21:41:00 -
[220] - Quote
Tiger's Spirit wrote:
You are wrong. Spread forces ? Like today ? Everyone hate lags, but what do you see there today ? Everyone go with blob and they create those lags. They go fewer there ? No, they bring more man, and generate more lag.
With Tidi wont changes this, moreover they will bring more mans to fight to single system because they would more times to bring defensive fleets there. Tidi situantions will make to the game more bad situationsthan the few advantages what will bring.
Longer boring POS bashing, boring very long TCU shot, 3x24 hours long Outpost shot. More blob because defenders got more times to gathering fleet. Longer travel times because big fleets will slowing regions and horrible jump times at gates.
Blob makes lag thats need to fix.
Need changes like, decreasing alliance member numbers and their standing possibility. No more 3k number corps and alliances.
Need changes moon harvesting rules, like dispro or other moons shouldn't have infinite mineral, it would yield it, alliances would be obliged to changes regions and fight for new territories and moons.
Need changes the area maintenance prizes rules. Many big blob hold too much area and system, because those system prizes is ridicuolus low. Like this: 1 system mainaince cost 1x factor, and incraesing this factor (2x,3x,4x) when they wants to possess more systems. This would be chance to hold 1-2 territory for small groups, but harder for huge captured systems for big entities (superblob alliances with over 3k members).
Need smaller groups, not need more superblobs and slow-mo fights, because thats create super lag and blackscreens.
ohh wow... this sounds like a buthurt DRF or PL alt member! ohh cant take goons in their space cause they blob their systems cause they have a rediculous amount of people wanting to fight for their corner of eve.
newsflash genius, theres more than 1 way to kill an empire!
but back to serious spaceship tomfoolery, ill give u the numbers cause u obviously dont seem to understand how powerful TiDi is.
Currently Veritas has TiDi setup in a linear form because he's yet to see a fight that surpasses the upper limit he's set. Ill explain this now:
a typical node can host a 500-600 man battle with relatively no lag. reinforced and that goes to 800-900. at its current maximum level veritas has set a max limit of 10% time what that means is the normal node will reach the 10% time only at approx 2000. the reinforced node would reach 10% time with approx 3200 AND that would be happening with only very slight lag creeping inand NO DESYNCS, NO BLACK SCREENS.
so far the highest fleetfight in eves history was insanely laggy and had a bit under 3200 people in, it took HOURS just to load grid, it took HOURS to even fire your guns, let alone even know if you're doing damage! GOD help you if u wanted to change direction or lock a target, to even try and lock someone took HOURS more!
with TiDi, it may mean 10% time, but if it takes u 1 minute to lock a target, then OMG it may take u 10 minutes! not an hour and a half.
ohh and about the blobbing, its going to happen, you cannot stop people from participating and organising and teaming up against a common foe. Ive done it in big fleets killing only particular reds on grid and not others cause its been agreed upon to not fire on each other. no amount of caps on members, corp numbers, plue or light blue standings will change that.
u want a cap on the number of people in one place at one time, **** off back to wow where u obviously came from, stop crying about ur failures at playing a big boys game.
|
|
Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
4
|
Posted - 2011.10.10 06:27:00 -
[221] - Quote
Tiger's Spirit... U mad brah?
You go from talking about what you think may happen with Tidi (Which is silly in my opinion) to talking about the size of alliances.
So instead of Tidi you want to change the very idea of nullsec? U mad? |
|
CCP Spitfire
C C P C C P Alliance
221
|
Posted - 2011.10.11 08:15:00 -
[222] - Quote
Imigo Montoya wrote:I would sure like to see this - making the UI seem glitchy probably isn't the ideal way to convey the message that time is behaving differently, certainly not camera control. I'm seriously impressed though, really liking what I'm seeing. At the same time I'm somewhat confused by the people hating on this. It seems to be coming from a place of ignorance so I wrote an article on EN24 that explains the fundamentals of what TiDi is actually trying to achieve in a way that I think is accessible to anyone (ie no Computer Science degree needed). I'd really appreciate your feedback Veritas, especially if my generalisation conflicts with how the specifics in this case actually work.
Hello,
CCP Veritas had some problems logging into the forums when I showed him this post, but he asked me to pass along that your summary is quite correct. Thank you for that article!
CCP Spitfire | Russian Community Coordinator @ccp_spitfire |
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X3k5
The Knights Templar Cascade Imminent
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 01:44:00 -
[223] - Quote
I have just one word for TiDi: GENIUS!
As a 0.0 player, I have to say this is one awesome feature and massive props to CCP Veritas & co. for coming up with it.
To all the idiots who do not understand the mechanics of TiDi and are ignorantly criticizing it or saying stuff like "TiDi is just packaged lag": Go read the Time Dilation blog - http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&bid=900 then go watch GeeShizzle MacCloud's video - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qgXp0S0-wPA. If you still do not understand the difference between TiDi and lag, go back to nursery school.
The Time Dilation video is misleading because the system Veritas ran it on isnt great. The GeeShizzle MacCloud video does it justice and I absolutely love it, even the camera pan albeit that might get a little annoying at 10%.
The people crying about advantages and disadvantages are also incorrect. Since both sides are still at the same time speed, there are no advantages or disadvantages to either side. The only thing that changes is that FCs will now get more time to plan their moves based on what they see. That can mean less tactical mistakes but also second guessing.
There is no nerf to small fast ships. The game mechanics are exactly the same still. In TiDi, if a small ship goes in to tackle, it still takes the same amount of time(relatively speaking) to target and shoot it down as if the ship is immediately detected in full time-speed. |
Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 06:24:00 -
[224] - Quote
That sisi testing video shows the Camera does NOT need changing. Please keep it the way it is in that video or add the option to keep it that way. I love it!
TiDi is really going to make large fleet fights and absolute JOY to go to! This ought to seriously help EVE in the long run.
Thanks! |
Archetype 66
Pleasure and Pain Ares Protectiva
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 23:04:00 -
[225] - Quote
Awesome Job, but please, don't touch the camera :p
One question :
For now, when a system is laggy, you're hampered for all kinds of actions : navigation, pvp/e etc...but also market orders, contracts, even chatting and everything else.
With TiDi on, you'll get more time to do other stuff while fighting = more requests for the node. Are you planing to counter that ? If not, this will sadly becoming a vicious circle...
Dont' get me wrong, I like the idea, but I hope you get my point (even if my english is so poor)
Why do not dilate spaming delay in channels, orders by minutes etc...? |
Endeavour Starfleet
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
6
|
Posted - 2011.10.12 23:53:00 -
[226] - Quote
They have already stated they will monitor the situation as it is tested and deployed. There will be more requests but not in a linear fashion. If I order my missiles to fire. I do not have to spam the command anymore even at high Tidi. |
irishbros Kanjus
The Lone Soldier
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 18:16:00 -
[227] - Quote
Hi i updated my os to windows 7. Ok so before the update the games was running fine since ive got W7 as soon as i start the game i get little lag spikes/suttering it not anything going on on the screen it even happens when im sitting in empty space nothing around it still happen. #its so annoying that i cant stand it and cant play the game. If any one has any info on a fix i would be glad to hear it . Oh also ive updated all my drivers to newest so cant see it being drivers |
neur0zen
x Kami x
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 05:24:00 -
[228] - Quote
Instead of having 'lag' we gonna have a slower gameplay ? ( lol ? )
Ok it's look like a lot more playable, we will not have to wait 30min to perform a basic action in those kind of fight. (So amazing for a game of spaceships battle...)
But still in an lag feeling ? Where is the difference in a player point of view ?
ps : Please try using your modules next time, like shooting your locked target ? or try to warp in/out for example, so we can see if 'our' gunz is working in lag. Not just the fleet in front of you. |
GeeShizzle MacCloud
8
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 12:17:00 -
[229] - Quote
in the video i wanted to see how bombs and bombers would perform in a high TiDi situation as theyre the ships that suffer the most from dropped requests, but also have the most to gain from TiDi's rebalancing of the battlefield. i had probes fitted (albeit i didnt use em - my bad!) so i didnt fit any torp launchers purely because of fitting restrictions.
the difference in a players perspective is at most something taking you 10 seconds to do in game normally will take you at max 1min 40 seconds to do in the highest TiDi situations, not half an hour or more in a biiiig battle when the server is experiencing "soul crushing lag"
i had been activating my MWD periodically tho, to check its response time. |
Cybele Lanier
Viziam Amarr Empire
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 14:29:00 -
[230] - Quote
neur0zen wrote:Instead of having 'lag' we gonna have a slower gameplay ? ( lol ? ) Ok it's look like a lot more playable, we will not have to wait 30min to perform a basic action in those kind of fight. (So amazing for a game of spaceships battle...) But still in an lag feeling ?Where is the difference in a player point of view ?
Again, the difference is that the playing field is level, and everything that you command to happen will happen, though with a bit of a delay. As opposed to how it works now, when battles can often be decided by who gets hit with the most lag or when a node crashes, or when a gun can jam for twenty minutes on some guy who warped out or died half an hour earlier. |
|
IIIsun trackerIII
EVE University Ivy League
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 09:48:00 -
[231] - Quote
Thumbs up for the effort made so far. Please leave the camera alone and do not slow it down or intentionally stutter it. The new RGB/pie icon and slower targeting/ship animations indicate how slow things are getting just fine. Keep it up! |
Claire Raynor
NovaGear
7
|
Posted - 2011.10.17 16:29:00 -
[232] - Quote
CCP Veritas wrote:GeeShizzle MacCloud wrote:not sure if veritas will enjoy this bit of test server tomfoolery but frapsed some stuff done tonight that was interesting and fun when it comes to Time Dilation... hope u guys like btw! http://youtu.be/qgXp0S0-wPA I enjoy it enough to quote it up again so more people see it ;)
Well done CCP Veritas!! I bet you are really thrilled with what you've achieved. You and your team! It is a really nice solution. Elegant design is something of beauty. I love the videos people have posted of this new function. It looks really slick! I think it is going to be something other companies will want to copy! Nice. Really nice.
:) |
Ranka Mei
TANoshii Incorporated New Eden Research.
56
|
Posted - 2011.10.22 01:20:00 -
[233] - Quote
The idea is not without merit. Vid seems a bit jittery, though: time not only slows down, but motion appears to be staggering. I hope that's just some odd youtube thingy, and not part of the deal.
-- "All your monies AUR belong to us!" -- CCP |
Rasz Lin
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 17:06:00 -
[234] - Quote
I like how even one of the main game devs computer is STRUGGLING to render couple of hundred dots on a screen. |
Rasz Lin
4
|
Posted - 2011.11.02 17:10:00 -
[235] - Quote
wicked cheese wrote:as a long time eve player and having 3-4 years of 0.0 fleet battle lagfests history this is undoubtedly the best solution to lag
Easiest, not best. Best would be finally implementing MULTITHREADING and abandon 'one sol one node' straight from the 1980s setup.
|
Chi Ftele
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2011.11.03 17:20:00 -
[236] - Quote
Rasz Lin wrote:Best would be finally implementing MULTITHREADING and abandon 'one sol one node' straight from the 1980s setup.
you gotta cut CCP some slack, they're climbing up what is already a mountain of work
you could be all "get a move on ya jerks!", but this slowdown-so-the-server-can-keep-up measure is good in the interim, before multithreading can be put on a realistic schedule
I could have used it back in 2005, back when your ship was fine one minute and gone the next, without nothing apparently happening, or the node just died in 10 seconds hehe That is all. |
Lee Anderson
Eternal Profiteers
3
|
Posted - 2011.11.04 10:05:00 -
[237] - Quote
Very Nice video, can't wait to see this go live!! Keep up the good work CCP :) http://eveportal.net/Guides Great site for Mission Reports
|
Tiger's Spirit
Troll Hunters INC.
33
|
Posted - 2012.01.15 10:13:00 -
[238] - Quote
Yesterday was Tidi activated on Tranquility. Single 1 system route (gate to gate) was 10 minute long and the lag was present there. Emergency warp, no server response, after log off, i cant log on. 5 minute later i could log in, after 3 minute long black screen. Dont forget, there was just a traveling fleet without fight. Nothing changed, but every act got ridicuolus long periods. |
john roe
BearingPoint
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 18:27:00 -
[239] - Quote
so... LAG is now called time dilatation? we had that feature implemented since early beta. thank you very much.
o/ |
Zayn Longson
P H Y S I C
11
|
Posted - 2012.01.18 19:11:00 -
[240] - Quote
So lets get this straight; the developers spent time developing a "little flashing light" which shows when their server is lagging??
This may be insane, but wouldnt it have been a better idea to spend this time and money on:
1. Adding more servers to the server farm to actually REDUCE the lag, or,
2. Look at sharing out the computational load by using smart coding to have client machines do some of the calculations and return the results, which would ALSO reduce the lag in the first place? Just to give one really simple example - if only one person is in vissible range of the event, why not have THEIR machine, rather than the server, do all the calculations??
The "little light" solution is like finding somone has cut their wrist and rather than trying to fix the problem, put a big neon light above them saying "there is a problem!" |
|
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen
Arbitrary Spaceship Destruction
2
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 00:30:00 -
[241] - Quote
CCP Fallout wrote:Now on Singularity: Time Dilation. Watch CCP Vertias' new video blog for a personal demo on how we are winning the War on Lag.
I fail to see how this is a plus and not a server scaling fail by CCP...
If the nodes are overloaded, rather than a UI mechanism similar to the hourglass in windows or spinning rainbow disc in OSX to say "ouchie, I'm overloaded, slowing down..." heres an idea....
Buy more servers. Beef up the servers you do have, add ram, CPU's -- whatever -- scale your hardware so it doesnt happen in the first place?
FAIL
|
Vistus Geyer
Black Company Merc's The Aurora Shadow
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 01:34:00 -
[242] - Quote
Looks like he's lagg'in ..... could be lag !!!!
Just kidding if its not real lag and its just "Slowing" down the server then cheers
All in all I'm gunna give CCP + 5 lately |
Vistus Geyer
Black Company Merc's The Aurora Shadow
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 01:36:00 -
[243] - Quote
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:CCP Fallout wrote:Now on Singularity: Time Dilation. Watch CCP Vertias' new video blog for a personal demo on how we are winning the War on Lag. I fail to see how this is a plus and not a server scaling fail by CCP... If the nodes are overloaded, rather than a UI mechanism similar to the hourglass in windows or spinning rainbow disc in OSX to say "ouchie, I'm overloaded, slowing down..." heres an idea.... Buy more servers. Beef up the servers you do have, add ram, CPU's -- whatever -- scale your hardware so it doesnt happen in the first place? FAIL
He does make a valid point ....... JUST SAY'IN !!!! |
Vistus Geyer
Black Company Merc's The Aurora Shadow
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 01:44:00 -
[244] - Quote
Zayn Longson wrote:So lets get this straight; the developers spent time developing a "little flashing light" which shows when their server is lagging??
This may be insane, but wouldnt it have been a better idea to spend this time and money on:
1. Adding more servers to the server farm to actually REDUCE the lag, or,
2. Look at sharing out the computational load by using smart coding to have client machines do some of the calculations and return the results, which would ALSO reduce the lag in the first place? Just to give one really simple example - if only one person is in vissible range of the event, why not have THEIR machine, rather than the server, do all the calculations??
The "little light" solution is like finding somone has cut their wrist and rather than trying to fix the problem, put a big neon light above them saying "there is a problem!"
I like this one --------> 2. Look at sharing out the computational load by using smart coding to have client machines do some of the calculations and return the results, which would ALSO reduce the lag in the first place? Just to give one really simple example - if only one person is in vissible range of the event, why not have THEIR machine, rather than the server, do all the calculations??
|
Lapine Davion
Perkone Caldari State
0
|
Posted - 2012.01.19 16:18:00 -
[245] - Quote
Vistus Geyer wrote:Zayn Longson wrote:So lets get this straight; the developers spent time developing a "little flashing light" which shows when their server is lagging??
This may be insane, but wouldnt it have been a better idea to spend this time and money on:
1. Adding more servers to the server farm to actually REDUCE the lag, or,
2. Look at sharing out the computational load by using smart coding to have client machines do some of the calculations and return the results, which would ALSO reduce the lag in the first place? Just to give one really simple example - if only one person is in vissible range of the event, why not have THEIR machine, rather than the server, do all the calculations??
The "little light" solution is like finding somone has cut their wrist and rather than trying to fix the problem, put a big neon light above them saying "there is a problem!" I like this one --------> 2. Look at sharing out the computational load by using smart coding to have client machines do some of the calculations and return the results, which would ALSO reduce the lag in the first place? Just to give one really simple example - if only one person is in vissible range of the event, why not have THEIR machine, rather than the server, do all the calculations??
Hokay. Zayn, do you not realize that CCP has remained at the forefront in server technology in order to keep the game as stable as it is? It is really, really difficult, believe it or not, to process all those transactions in a fleet fight. There is a reason Eve is the only game out there that tries the single-shard with no instances thing.
As for your client-side computing thing. You might reduce the lag, but the potential for hacks is much, much greater when you do that.
Also lol at people whining about tidi who will likely never see it in action. |
Katherine Starlight
Apex Tech Xenogenesis Alliance
3
|
Posted - 2012.01.20 05:29:00 -
[246] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:
Hokay. Zayn, do you not realize that CCP has remained at the forefront in server technology in order to keep the game as stable as it is? It is really, really difficult, believe it or not, to process all those transactions in a fleet fight. There is a reason Eve is the only game out there that tries the single-shard with no instances thing.
As for your client-side computing thing. You might reduce the lag, but the potential for hacks is much, much greater when you do that.
Also lol at people whining about tidi who will likely never see it in action.
you realise they are the only ones suffering from TiDi right? Less lag in nullsec in big fleetfights, but the cost of that is lag in all of empire. |
Aineko Macx
Royal Amarr Institute Amarr Empire
117
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Posted - 2012.01.22 13:55:00 -
[247] - Quote
In lack of a better feedback thread:
TiDi is working rather well actually.
However, it shows that the servers are very easily overloaded. Even fleets below 150 easily trigger it. And large fights running at 10-15% are not fun anymore. I thought the servers were in better shape by now. |
Terrorfrodo
Deep Space Darwinian Law Enforcement Agency
17
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Posted - 2012.01.23 15:10:00 -
[248] - Quote
Aineko Macx wrote: However, it shows that the servers are very easily overloaded. Even fleets below 150 easily trigger it. And large fights running at 10-15% are not fun anymore.
Sounds like EVE has a turn-based strategy mode now. Maybe I should try one of those large fleet fights, I always loved TBS!
Also, sounds great for training pvp, you have more time to weigh what you should do and give the correct commands before your Rifter is blown up |
Zayn Longson
P H Y S I C
11
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Posted - 2012.01.31 13:46:00 -
[249] - Quote
Lapine Davion wrote:Vistus Geyer wrote:Zayn Longson wrote:So lets get this straight; the developers spent time developing a "little flashing light" which shows when their server is lagging??
This may be insane, but wouldnt it have been a better idea to spend this time and money on:
1. Adding more servers to the server farm to actually REDUCE the lag, or,
2. Look at sharing out the computational load by using smart coding to have client machines do some of the calculations and return the results, which would ALSO reduce the lag in the first place? Just to give one really simple example - if only one person is in vissible range of the event, why not have THEIR machine, rather than the server, do all the calculations??
The "little light" solution is like finding somone has cut their wrist and rather than trying to fix the problem, put a big neon light above them saying "there is a problem!" I like this one --------> 2. Look at sharing out the computational load by using smart coding to have client machines do some of the calculations and return the results, which would ALSO reduce the lag in the first place? Just to give one really simple example - if only one person is in vissible range of the event, why not have THEIR machine, rather than the server, do all the calculations?? Hokay. Zayn, do you not realize that CCP has remained at the forefront in server technology in order to keep the game as stable as it is? It is really, really difficult, believe it or not, to process all those transactions in a fleet fight. There is a reason Eve is the only game out there that tries the single-shard with no instances thing. As for your client-side computing thing. You might reduce the lag, but the potential for hacks is much, much greater when you do that. Also lol at people whining about tidi who will likely never see it in action.
You say "As for your client-side computing thing. You might reduce the lag, but the potential for hacks is much, much greater when you do that."? lol, DEAL WITH IT, any system can be cracked, so by your argument that making something so it might be more likely to get hacked, we should destroy the internet, because banks linking up to websites are more likely to get hacked... ORRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR some simple security can be put in place to check for it. New word for you: internet security lol |
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