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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 12 post(s) |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
1437
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Posted - 2012.10.17 00:32:00 -
[721] - Quote
Simply put:
God buttons/features like "now people can't shoot you" *bling the magic wand* "now everyone can shoot you" don't belong to EvE. There are game mechanics which should be static, not something you can alter in middle of fight.
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1268
|
Posted - 2012.10.17 00:34:00 -
[722] - Quote
Ludi Burek wrote:All this talk of people rolling gank alts worries me as I used to just gank on my main and would again like to gank on my main (role play thing). Proliferation of -10 alts in empire only leads to one final outcome considering the development trend and that is severe restrictions on outlaw characters in high sec. Logical conclusion, my friend. I hope people remember that term. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
338
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Posted - 2012.10.17 00:38:00 -
[723] - Quote
Grey Stormshadow wrote:Simply put:
God buttons/features like "now people can't shoot you" *bling the magic wand* "now everyone can shoot you" don't belong to EvE. There are game mechanics which should be static, not something you can alter in middle of fight. They have always existed save the fact that instead of everyone it was the person you did it to and his corp. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
338
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Posted - 2012.10.17 00:43:00 -
[724] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Possibly. So what do you do with a powerhouse that seemingly no one can stop decides to act the criminal role, has the resources to wreak havoc on a large scale and/or lives in a place that makes the consequences largely irrelevant? And more importantly if this is aimed at those, how does it stop you? See, you're looking at it from the wrong angle, you don't want to stop people from doing things like this in hisec, you want to give them a reason to look for the same type of content in nullsec. CCP has neglected this aspect of the game for years, and as I said I moved into nullsec 3 years ago, and I moved my nullsec moneymaking alt back to hisec around 2.5 years ago quite simply because all the things I wanted to do were impossible to do in nullsec (without incurring great cost and lots of extra logistics compared to those who just imported ships etc). This means less people living there, this means less people for roaming gangs to gank, this means less fun to be had in nullsec, and this finally means going to hisec to have fun there instead. Fix nullsec industry and other various things which would incentivize people into living there, and people would have more incentive to try to grief other people in nullsec instead of hisec. No force required, no hindrances required. vOv No doubt that which is broken needs fixed, but at the same time I'm not sure how this addressed the specific incidents you mentioned for the most part. Seems they would still be possible in the same ways they were before. |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
1437
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Posted - 2012.10.17 00:51:00 -
[725] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grey Stormshadow wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grey Stormshadow wrote:Simply put:
God buttons/features like "now people can't shoot you" *bling the magic wand* "now everyone can shoot you" don't belong to EvE. There are game mechanics which should be static, not something you can alter in middle of fight. They have always existed save the fact that instead of everyone it was the person you did it to and his corp. If you're referring to war decs how are they related to something what happens in middle of fight in blink of an eye? War decs are part of the static game mechanics and they work always the same. War decs don't suddenly turn off concord when your random opponent decides to click button. No, I'm not referring to wardecs, which as I understand aren't changing, but I assume you are talking about tradable kill rights. If so then I'll agree that some things about the way that is being done irk me. Seems to me that whatever the terms are they should be a permanent, 1 time trade to a new owner who has all the right of the originator rather than making it as free for all. but that is a personal opinion.
No I'm not talking about tradable kill rights. I'm talking about the magic button what gives everyone right to shoot you at will.
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1268
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Posted - 2012.10.17 00:51:00 -
[726] - Quote
The gripe with kill rights being an FFA trigger is essentially the point of this thread. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
338
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Posted - 2012.10.17 00:52:00 -
[727] - Quote
Grey Stormshadow wrote:No I'm not talking about tradable kill rights. I'm talking about the magic button what gives everyone right to shoot you at will. Which button is that? |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
338
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Posted - 2012.10.17 00:53:00 -
[728] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:The gripe with kill rights being an FFA trigger is essentially the point of this thread. Then yes, that I can agree that is a bad system. |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
1437
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Posted - 2012.10.17 00:55:00 -
[729] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grey Stormshadow wrote:No I'm not talking about tradable kill rights. I'm talking about the magic button what gives everyone right to shoot you at will. Which button is that?
" If you have a kill right against someone, you can activate that kill right to make your target a suspect (i.e. give him a Suspect Flag, as explained in the crimewatch blog). This allows anyone in the vicinity of the suspect to engage him legally."
This button.
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Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
338
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Posted - 2012.10.17 00:58:00 -
[730] - Quote
Grey Stormshadow wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grey Stormshadow wrote:No I'm not talking about tradable kill rights. I'm talking about the magic button what gives everyone right to shoot you at will. Which button is that? " If you have a kill right against someone, you can activate that kill right to make your target a suspect (i.e. give him a Suspect Flag, as explained in the crimewatch blog). This allows anyone in the vicinity of the suspect to engage him legally." This button. This is what I meant by "Tradable killrights" but would more appropriately have been stated as the reworking of killrights in general. And in that case as stated above, I agree. |
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Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
390
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Posted - 2012.10.17 01:00:00 -
[731] - Quote
Grey Stormshadow wrote:Tyberius Franklin wrote:Grey Stormshadow wrote:No I'm not talking about tradable kill rights. I'm talking about the magic button what gives everyone right to shoot you at will. Which button is that? " If you have a kill right against someone, you can activate that kill right to make your target a suspect (i.e. give him a Suspect Flag, as explained in the crimewatch blog). This allows anyone in the vicinity of the suspect to engage him legally." This button. And in all this we're forgetting which button he pressed that earned him the kill rights in the first place.
F1 << this button "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Shederov Blood
Wrecketeers
49
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Posted - 2012.10.17 01:04:00 -
[732] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:Seems to me that whatever the terms are they should be a permanent, 1 time trade to a new owner who has all the right of the originator rather than making it as free for all. but that is a personal opinion. Which is what many bounty hunters were asking for. The ability to actually be a bounty hunter, and earn a reputation as such. The victim's ability to choose who could execute justice for him, rather than the criminal's alts. For me as a pirate to be hunted by a professional killer rather than gangbanged by an angry, yet most likely incompetent lynch mob. |
Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
1437
|
Posted - 2012.10.17 01:10:00 -
[733] - Quote
It is very bad idea to add any FFA triggers to hands of any player.
Much better approach would be to further iterate to who (all) you get kill rights when you get for example ganked or otherwise killed. Then trading those (maybe multible) kill rights forward to bounty hunters who then could possibly share them inside fleet they are flying in.
FFA button is very dirty workaround and should never end up to live server.
Also kill rights should be handed only from cases which cause concord intervention in hisec or death in lowsec.
Get |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1276
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Posted - 2012.10.17 19:10:00 -
[734] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=162204&p=50
A quick update for you guys on the latest few pages of the dev blog thread:
1. CCP called our 6-year-old proposals for kill rights to be sellable to individuals or corporations "lame, on-the-fly ideas." 2. CCP wants pvp (bounty hunting) to be a PUG (pick-up-group) activity. 3. CCP acknowledges the system to be of "limited value" and able to easily be bypassed. 4. CCP makes a whole bunch of excuses about our proposals being too difficult to write code for. 5. CCP says that corporations aren't a good mechanic to support cooperative gameplay. 6. CCP says our solution is great but "aw shucks guys, too many technical hurdles so you're getting this." 7. CCP claims that one person can defend himself as a suspect against an unlimited number of players as long as he's flying in "something powerful." 8. CCP puts a big "IF" on future iteration of kill right content.
And much, much more!
I swear I'm not making this stuff up; go see for yourself, starting on page 50. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
Lord Zim
1783
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Posted - 2012.10.17 19:17:00 -
[735] - Quote
You forgot the part where he confirmed that the main idea behind the killrights (and by inference, crimewatch 2.0) was that people who do bad things receive the right to get killed. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1278
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Posted - 2012.10.17 19:18:00 -
[736] - Quote
Yup. It's really too good (bad?) to be true. You guys should go read those posts before they go into damage control mode. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1623
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Posted - 2012.10.17 20:23:00 -
[737] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:Yup. It's really too good (bad?) to be true. You guys should go read those posts before they go into damage control mode. I did some damage control. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
405
|
Posted - 2012.10.17 22:07:00 -
[738] - Quote
Truth o'clock for me.
I was about to jump on this with a usual htfu rant 'cos I'm in a bad mood. Then I went and almost read the entire 50 pages of the thread linked above. Now I'm not angry anymore, I'm brain-dead.
But I've seen the light.
I see the point about the killright claim being publically available and being shared (which is good for the victim selling the killright because he don't care who kills him - I've said same).
But it's bad for the person claiming the killright so why would he bother (unless a big bounty is also attached).
ofc, the argument presented was to make sure you activate the killright somewhere "safe from interference" which I know is going to be bloody near impossible. Time to lock and fire is in the order of seconds - not minutes.
So public broadcast at hubs etc. of "KILL HIM" (which is inevitable) is bad for the person claiming the killright.
I am and remain convinced that the argument against being able to buy and keep the killright "within" was bad because the ganker could just buy his own killright back with an alt.
This was bad for the originator of the killright.
So obviously the simple solution is to make the rights a market commodity - on a proper contract preferably - as long as the originator can buy the damn thing back - 1 for 1 - if the contract is not completed.
(In fact, he shouldn't even have to buy it back. If the contract is not completed within n days, he get's his money back auto.)
..oo0oo..
So Destiny, in retrospect and with further reading I concur on your key points.
Public killrights is bad and should not be introduced until a contract system is worked up. In the interim, the originator of the killright could place a chunky bounty to get his revenge if he should chose. All he wants is revenge and cares not for the mechanics to do so.
PS: I see that the right to keep the killright in-house is WiP but that just screams, "we couldn't do it in this iteration, sorry. have this instead". "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1290
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Posted - 2012.10.17 22:39:00 -
[739] - Quote
Well, I'm happy that you finally see the merit of our point, which comes from the perspective of the hunter and not the target. The target already doesn't care that people have kill rights, since he's usually -10 anyway. Yadda yadda, I mentioned this stuff like 40 times. But it's good that you finally understand, considering you've been one of our more vocal opponents in this thread.
Touval Lysander wrote:So obviously the simple solution is to make the rights a market commodity - on a proper contract preferably - as long as the originator can buy the damn thing back - 1 for 1 - if the contract is not completed.
(In fact, he shouldn't even have to buy it back. If the contract is not completed within n days, he get's his money back auto.) By the way, that above idea is what I proposed in the dev blog thread, and CCP SoniClover called it "on the fly" and "lame." Just want to point that out. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
838
|
Posted - 2012.10.17 22:50:00 -
[740] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Truth o'clock for me.
I was about to jump on this with a usual htfu rant 'cos I'm in a bad mood. Then I went and almost read the entire 50 pages of the thread linked above. Now I'm not angry anymore, I'm brain-dead.
But I've seen the light.
I see the point about the killright claim being publically available and being shared (which is good for the victim selling the killright because he don't care who kills him - I've said same).
But it's bad for the person claiming the killright so why would he bother (unless a big bounty is also attached).
ofc, the argument presented was to make sure you activate the killright somewhere "safe from interference" which I know is going to be bloody near impossible. Time to lock and fire is in the order of seconds - not minutes.
So public broadcast at hubs etc. of "KILL HIM" (which is inevitable) is bad for the person claiming the killright.
I am and remain convinced that the argument against being able to buy and keep the killright "within" was bad because the ganker could just buy his own killright back with an alt.
This was bad for the originator of the killright.
So obviously the simple solution is to make the rights a market commodity - on a proper contract preferably - as long as the originator can buy the damn thing back - 1 for 1 - if the contract is not completed.
(In fact, he shouldn't even have to buy it back. If the contract is not completed within n days, he get's his money back auto.)
..oo0oo..
So Destiny, in retrospect and with further reading I concur on your key points.
Public killrights is bad and should not be introduced until a contract system is worked up. In the interim, the originator of the killright could place a chunky bounty to get his revenge if he should chose. All he wants is revenge and cares not for the mechanics to do so.
PS: I see that the right to keep the killright in-house is WiP but that just screams, "we couldn't do it in this iteration, sorry. have this instead".
I still have a problem with this thread. This problem being about choice/consequence.
No one tell you to trigger the killright when everyone and his cat can shoot at it
No one ever tells you where, when and with what. You have to make a choice and then assume the benefits or the consequences for that choice. This is why this system is good. There should not be or ever exist a trigger button in Eve making you above all mechanics and eventual "exploits", invulnerable to Concord+everything around.
The killrights mechanic is good, it's rather how smart players are to use it and not the other way around.
Once again, high sec is not getting safer but harsher, it's only players who are unable to realise it because lack of creativity. brb |
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1292
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Posted - 2012.10.17 23:11:00 -
[741] - Quote
Just a straight-up copy-paste from the dev blog thread:
It's not going to be any more worth it ["good"] than it is today because outlaws can be shot anywhere, at any time. Like I said about 356,832 times already, the only people this change will affect are low-sec weekend warriors, and the half-dozen people still left out there who gank on their mains. I was one such person, and now I won't be anymore. Simple as that. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
408
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 00:05:00 -
[742] - Quote
Lin-Young Borovskova wrote: I still have a problem with this thread. This problem being about choice/consequence.
No one tell you to trigger the killright when everyone and his cat can shoot at it
No one ever tells you where, when and with what. You have to make a choice and then assume the benefits or the consequences for that choice. This is why this system is good. There should not be or ever exist a trigger button in Eve making you above all mechanics and eventual "exploits", invulnerable to Concord+everything around.
The killrights mechanic is good, it's rather how smart players are to use it and not the other way around.
Once again, high sec is not getting safer but harsher, it's only players who are unable to realise it because lack of creativity.
Lin, the intent behind transferable killrights is sound. I'm a big believer in consequence and have said this so many times I've gone blue. It gives the victim a chance at "retribution" as it were and for mine, is long overdue.
That's my stance on the theory behind it. Always been clear on that - it's a disagreeable point for some. I accept that.
BUT....
The practise of the public killright is bad because the value of the kill is depreciated - i.e. The incentive to buy and act on a killright is removed. This is actually bad for the intent.
We want the hunters to be motivated enough to undertake the task. If they can buy the rights exclusively they'll be more likely to deliver on the contract, otherwise, why bother.
Yes, for the originator of the killright, he cares not, so for him he's in effect excluded from the argument. He just wants the job done and BOTH methods will work.
So make the system work where the originator get's the kill regardless and the bounty hunter has a reason to do it.
As an aside, sorta wondering whether a choice of public or private contract is worth considering too. If I sold a killright, I might want private just so the bounty hunter can say on my behalf "so-and-so said hi".
Maybe I just want him dead so make it a public kill.
Just a thought. "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
408
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Posted - 2012.10.18 00:10:00 -
[743] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote: By the way, that above idea is what I proposed in the dev blog thread, and CCP SoniClover called it "on the fly" and "lame." Just want to point that out.
Not sure if that was just badly worded dude because they intend to anyway the way I read it.
As early as post #36 by CCP Paradox
Quote: Just highlighting the part of the blog that has iterative work:
"More selective kill right selling GÇô this is similar to the one above, only for kill rights instead of bounties. This basically allows the owner of the kill right to select more carefully who can purchase the kill right.
So I suspect his answer was assuming you had seen this and the argument itself (when it's a given that it's going to happen) was lame. Dunno. "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1295
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Posted - 2012.10.18 00:17:00 -
[744] - Quote
The "future iterations" stuff is speculative. If I'm going to bet money, then I'll bet that CCP won't iterate on this content for years, if at all, just like they didn't for FW. That line seems to me to be an effort to placate the angry, dissatisfied players into letting them push through the terrible crap they've already coded.
All of us here, even the people arguing against my points for example, are smarter than that. We're fully aware that what CCP says, and what CCP does, are completely unrelated to each other. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
793
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 00:51:00 -
[745] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Quote:"More selective kill right selling GÇô this is similar to the one above, only for kill rights instead of bounties. This basically allows the owner of the kill right to select more carefully who can purchase the kill right. So I suspect his answer was assuming you had seen this and the argument itself (when it's a given that it's going to happen) was lame. Dunno. That's what the default mechanic should be, not this boolean gangbang bullshit where someone from the CW 2.0 team was like "just use the Suspect flag, it'll make it easier for all of us." Nothing Found |
Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
408
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 00:54:00 -
[746] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:The "future iterations" stuff is speculative. If I'm going to bet money, then I'll bet that CCP won't iterate on this content for years, if at all, just like they didn't for FW. That line seems to me to be an effort to placate the angry, dissatisfied players into letting them push through the terrible crap they've already coded.
All of us here, even the people arguing against my points for example, are smarter than that. We're fully aware that what CCP says, and what CCP does, are completely unrelated to each other. I'll accept that. But fyi, they did make it quite clear that lotsa' data is going to be accumulated in the first roll-out. If it proves to be as bad as we're expecting, they'll focus, I'm sure.
I'm acutely aware of the technical, financial and time constraints on such a big change. Time is their friend and upsetting a few initially to get it "right" as it were - in the longer term - is w/o doubt their biggest priority.
Forgive my 3 year old naivety - but it is tainted with 30 years of being in business.
I wouldn't be taking it so personally
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Touval Lysander
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
408
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Posted - 2012.10.18 00:57:00 -
[747] - Quote
Karl Hobb wrote:Touval Lysander wrote:Quote:"More selective kill right selling GÇô this is similar to the one above, only for kill rights instead of bounties. This basically allows the owner of the kill right to select more carefully who can purchase the kill right. So I suspect his answer was assuming you had seen this and the argument itself (when it's a given that it's going to happen) was lame. Dunno. That's what the default mechanic should be, not this boolean gangbang bullshit where someone from the CW 2.0 team was like "just use the Suspect flag, it'll make it easier for all of us." I saw the word "technical issues" used as an argument somewhat.
Given that their work is some of the best I've ever seen I'm prepared to be a little more circumspect.
Their reponses may seem trite in some cases but arguing badly and doing something badly are two different animals. "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Karl Hobb
Stellar Ore Refinery and Crematorium
793
|
Posted - 2012.10.18 01:01:00 -
[748] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:I saw the word "technical issues" used as an argument somewhat. Regarding flagging a fleet, not necessarily a corporation.
Touval Lysander wrote:Given that their work is some of the best I've ever seen I'm prepared to be a little more circumspect.
Their reponses may seem trite in some cases but arguing badly and doing something badly are two different animals. Given their recent track record of not listening to the playerbase's concerns over how horrible a feature is, and given the fact that they've pretty much ignored wholesale years of player suggestions in favor of LOL BOOLEAN, I'm not going to be at all surprised when this gets rolled out and isn't iterated on for years. Nothing Found |
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
1295
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Posted - 2012.10.18 01:24:00 -
[749] - Quote
"Technical issues" isn't an excuse at all. It simply can't be. It's impossible for it to be.
They have had a working system for many, many years now. And now they're going to get rid of it, but at the same time tell us "sorry guys, it's simply too difficult to code something like that"? I'm just not buying it.
Would you buy it if Toyota got rid of the combustible engine, started a new line of cars that are pedal-powered, and then put out a press release stating that they simply can't get over the technical hurdles of making their cars more fuel efficient?
No. You'd just have one broke-ass Japanese car company.
And as far as iteration goes, I'm betting this content won't be touched again. They didn't touch FW from 2007, until they rolled out a mega-broken "fix" that made things even worse. And even though they could easily mitigate the bad stuff by getting rid of the 4x LP price multipliers (I bet they'd just have to change like one line of code for that), they left it intact for a full year in order to address it in an expansion.
Please. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
Shederov Blood
Wrecketeers
57
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Posted - 2012.10.18 01:37:00 -
[750] - Quote
Destiny Corrupted wrote:combustible engine lol.
Destiny Corrupted wrote:... FW ... Not to mention War Declarations.
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