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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Lord Zim
2039
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Posted - 2012.11.19 11:58:00 -
[1441] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Lord Zim wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Frankly to many things anchored in null now, link it to player usage so that way you dont have local in systems rarely used just because you paid some isk.
You are in the ass end of space with a miniscule (Compared to an Empire) budget, I think more things should be linked to player activity rather than just wallet size. How do you propose you explain "if you don't kill 3000 rats per day in a system, you lose local" in a nonretarded manner? Having a structure you can shoot or hack to disable makes more sense, either it works or it doesn't. As for "paid some isk", personally I'd prefer it if we didn't have to pay anything directly to concord, since uh, it makes little sense why we should pay anything to concord when they do diddly squat there, but I'll deal with it since it's one of the few isk sinks still present in the game. yeah the pay concord is very strange and I was more thinking of over a week or 2 week period based on activity levels, for example a total of 200 hours of active use (flying around, mining, shooting ect..) "call to flying around ops, guys, time to make sure we have local in these systems!" If you wanted to keep local in inactive systems. yes. I personally do about that in a week with just my alts so it really should not be that hard with a huge alliance to keep a lot of systems active. Let me put it another way: it makes no sense to link anything to activity. Same goes for mining and ratting upgrades, if anything they should go the opposite way, the more you use them the less you have left, because you use up a resource. Rats logically shouldn't want to go into a system where it's well-known that players are ... very enthusiastic in shooting them, but there you go.
It makes no sense to say "you must do activty X Y times in Z days to get jumpbridges", or just say "you get a jumpbridge the instant you do activity X Y times in Z days". It does make sense to say "you add module X to system Y, you now get Z, and people can shoot it up for +ĺ damage or hack it and it's unavailable until the people rep +˙ HP or unhack it using module +ŕ".
Making sense is good. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1305
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 11:59:00 -
[1442] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Yeah but most of the stuff I remember was how the little guy was taking on the giant. There's more than enough players in nullsec alliances outside of the CFC to take us on and possibly win. They just don't want to ally with each other to do it. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
166
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 12:01:00 -
[1443] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote: ... just like private industry is always more efficient than governments.
If only that were true.
Speaking of lore...
The Pirate faction ammo should be more powerful than empire faction ammo. They are pirates after all, and not being bound by rules or regulation on war and munitions productions.
Yet, the ammo we get out of LP stores in nullsec is hands down worse than what people grind out safely in empire.
One thing is always certain, if CCP isn't gimping nullsec, the peanut gallery is begging them to hobble it some more. |
Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
880
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Posted - 2012.11.19 12:01:00 -
[1444] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
We'll have to add "local safaris" like we do sec safaris. Or when we did a ton of mining to get industry upgrades and grav sites when the drone poop nerf hit.
And there is nothing wrong with paying for stuff with isk. Especially if we can come up with more taxable activity for people in nullsec to engage in. I'd be fine with paying a bit more to stick local chat on the IHub. I already pay over 300mil a month in taxes. I wonder if any of the highsec afk ice miners pay anything close to that to get local and concord protection.
As I said paying isk for things is now kind of meaningless in Null, the sov map shows that quite well with alliances holding more space tan they could every fully utilise.
Actually having to be active within space to upgrade it and keep it would make Null more dynamic and also give smaller alliances that do not have trillions to back them the chance to hold and upgrade space in Null. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Frying Doom
Zat's Affiliated Traders
880
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Posted - 2012.11.19 12:03:00 -
[1445] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Frying Doom wrote: ... just like private industry is always more efficient than governments.
If only that were true. Speaking of lore... The Pirate faction ammo should be more powerful than empire faction ammo. They are pirates after all, and not being bound by rules or regulation on war and munitions productions. Yet, the ammo we get out of LP stores in nullsec is hands down worse than what people grind out safely in empire. One thing is always certain, if CCP isn't gimping nullsec, the peanut gallery is begging them to hobble it some more. Yeah so many things in null need fixing, pirate ammo should be nastier, pirates generally don't sign treaties about the niceties of war.
Null really needs to be tough but rewarding, atm it is neither. Any Spelling, gramatical and literary errors made by me are included free of charge.
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Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
168
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 12:09:00 -
[1446] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
We'll have to add "local safaris" like we do sec safaris. Or when we did a ton of mining to get industry upgrades and grav sites when the drone poop nerf hit.
And there is nothing wrong with paying for stuff with isk. Especially if we can come up with more taxable activity for people in nullsec to engage in. I'd be fine with paying a bit more to stick local chat on the IHub. I already pay over 300mil a month in taxes. I wonder if any of the highsec afk ice miners pay anything close to that to get local and concord protection.
As I said paying isk for things is now kind of meaningless in Null, the sov map shows that quite well with alliances holding more space tan they could every fully utilise. Actually having to be active within space to upgrade it and keep it would make Null more dynamic and also give smaller alliances that do not have trillions to back them the chance to hold and upgrade space in Null.
I think we are on the same page, I'm just farther along to where that activity ends up as isk in a player's pocket. And that isk can be pooled and directed towards communal things, like stations, jump bridges, system upgrades or even a local module.
Isk isn't a goal, it is a means to an end and a flexible one at that. If a corp wants to do tons of activity, and invest it all in faction fit marauders, that is there choice. If they want to convert all that activity into having local and a decent station, that should be an option too. And it doesn't have to be actual isk printed out of thin air. If that activity is all mineral production, same thing. The minerals could be directed towards stations and services or ships and bullets.
And isk is not meaningless in nullsec. Sure, there is still diminishing marginal utility, but all our isk is still counted and doled out. We learned the hard way what happens when people actually stop paying attention to where the isk is going. |
Lord Zim
2039
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 12:13:00 -
[1447] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:As I said paying isk for things is now kind of meaningless in Null, the sov map shows that quite well with alliances holding more space tan they could every fully utilise. There's tons of reasons for doing that. First of all, it makes moons easier to hold (since you can cynojam it if you want to), second of all it makes it harder for an enemy to take your space, since there's more of it.
It may look empty and underutilized, but it still has value to an alliance. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Mirima Thurander
The 8th Tribe Seraphim Dragoons.
407
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Posted - 2012.11.19 13:12:00 -
[1448] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Frying Doom wrote:Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:
We'll have to add "local safaris" like we do sec safaris. Or when we did a ton of mining to get industry upgrades and grav sites when the drone poop nerf hit.
And there is nothing wrong with paying for stuff with isk. Especially if we can come up with more taxable activity for people in nullsec to engage in. I'd be fine with paying a bit more to stick local chat on the IHub. I already pay over 300mil a month in taxes. I wonder if any of the highsec afk ice miners pay anything close to that to get local and concord protection.
As I said paying isk for things is now kind of meaningless in Null, the sov map shows that quite well with alliances holding more space tan they could every fully utilise. Actually having to be active within space to upgrade it and keep it would make Null more dynamic and also give smaller alliances that do not have trillions to back them the chance to hold and upgrade space in Null. I think we are on the same page, I'm just farther along to where that activity ends up as isk in a player's pocket. And that isk can be pooled and directed towards communal things, like stations, jump bridges, system upgrades or even a local module. Isk isn't a goal, it is a means to an end and a flexible one at that. If a corp wants to do tons of activity, and invest it all in faction fit marauders, that is there choice. If they want to convert all that activity into having local and a decent station, that should be an option too. And it doesn't have to be actual isk printed out of thin air. If that activity is all mineral production, same thing. The minerals could be directed towards stations and services or ships and bullets. And isk is not meaningless in nullsec. Sure, there is still diminishing marginal utility, but all our isk is still counted and doled out. We learned the hard way what happens when people actually stop paying attention to where the isk is going. u have to remove local before u can buy a local.
A Dark time comes. A time of terror comes. My time. If it offends you. Stop me. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
656
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 16:19:00 -
[1449] - Quote
Frying Doom wrote:stupid stuff
Mirima Thurander wrote:stupid stuff You two really give WH residents a bad name.
Andski wrote:ah so you live in a wormhole -naturally i'm going to take this opportunity and point out that wormholes have 1/20th the PvP of nullsec WH's have 5% of the population of Eve, and 1/20th the pvp of null...
Wheres the problem?
Andski wrote: and would be much improved if we had the ability to bridge fleets into them, along with dropping titans and supercarriers, also introduce wormhole stabilizers so that we can bring larger fleets inside, wormholes are clearly too safe
So WH's can enjoy the same broken mechanics as Nullsec? Why the F would anyone want that?
Interdict Hi-Sec - it's the only way to be sure... |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1307
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 18:54:00 -
[1450] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:Andski wrote: and would be much improved if we had the ability to bridge fleets into them, along with dropping titans and supercarriers, also introduce wormhole stabilizers so that we can bring larger fleets inside, wormholes are clearly too safe So WH's can enjoy the same broken mechanics as Nullsec? Why the F would anyone want that? He's just demonstrating how the reason wormholers reject those mechanics outright is the same reason we reject wormhole local outright. |
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Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
657
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Posted - 2012.11.19 19:37:00 -
[1451] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:Andski wrote: and would be much improved if we had the ability to bridge fleets into them, along with dropping titans and supercarriers, also introduce wormhole stabilizers so that we can bring larger fleets inside, wormholes are clearly too safe So WH's can enjoy the same broken mechanics as Nullsec? Why the F would anyone want that? He's just demonstrating how the reason wormholers reject those mechanics outright is the same reason we reject wormhole local outright. /facepalm...
and I hit it hook, line and sinker....
Interdict Hi-Sec - it's the only way to be sure... |
Lord Zim
2042
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 19:38:00 -
[1452] - Quote
For shame. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Darth Gustav
Interwebs Cooter Explosion Fatal Ascension
1777
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 19:40:00 -
[1453] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote:Andski wrote: and would be much improved if we had the ability to bridge fleets into them, along with dropping titans and supercarriers, also introduce wormhole stabilizers so that we can bring larger fleets inside, wormholes are clearly too safe So WH's can enjoy the same broken mechanics as Nullsec? Why the F would anyone want that? He's just demonstrating how the reason wormholers reject those mechanics outright is the same reason we reject wormhole local outright. /facepalm... and I hit it hook, line and sinker.... Set the hook and reel.
I find it helps to intermittently raise the pole and lower it to help manage slack during reeling.
You might need a net. He who trolls trolls best when he who is trolled trolls the troller. -Darth Gustav's Axiom |
Eli Green
The Arrow Project
54
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 19:47:00 -
[1454] - Quote
73 pages later... wumbo |
MasterEnt
The Scope Gallente Federation
109
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Posted - 2012.11.19 19:58:00 -
[1455] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Raptors Mole wrote:Less risk than Null sec? If it is already less risky than null sec, with no local - the impact should be minimal. Sigh, I meant less risky in WHs after local was removed from null.
AKA - "Sigh, you read what I wrote.. not what I meant." Clear communicator is clearly communicating clearly.
Still waiting for the example of when local was delayed in the manner we are speaking. |
MasterEnt
The Scope Gallente Federation
109
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 19:59:00 -
[1456] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:MasterEnt wrote: 1) Hot pan = burn. - Tested 2) Water = wet, - Tested 3) Unrelated result = ? - Untested
Except we have plenty of other examples of nullsec being made harder, or other regions getting stuff that is better than nullsec, to compare. Anoms got nerfed, so people went to do highsec L4's 1 gimped station per system, so most people do research/industry in highsec FW got buffed to be more profitable than nullsec ratting, tons of us started farming FW Drone alloys were removed, highsec now has the best isk/hr ores
Sure, but still different. One does not equal the other.
Unless of course at the end, you guys just aren't pro-risk as you keep claiming to be. Maybe The Mittins needs to find a new crew to roll with. |
Lin-Young Borovskova
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
952
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 20:22:00 -
[1457] - Quote
This thread loosing all interest after all pro "remove local" arguments being demonstrated as a pure lack of imagination or knowledge of game mechanics, should I, good sirs take my reverence and say goodbye.
o7 brb |
Asuka Solo
Stark Fujikawa Stark Enterprises
1788
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 20:39:00 -
[1458] - Quote
7/10 Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk! |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
168
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 21:19:00 -
[1459] - Quote
MasterEnt wrote:Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:MasterEnt wrote: 1) Hot pan = burn. - Tested 2) Water = wet, - Tested 3) Unrelated result = ? - Untested
Except we have plenty of other examples of nullsec being made harder, or other regions getting stuff that is better than nullsec, to compare. Anoms got nerfed, so people went to do highsec L4's 1 gimped station per system, so most people do research/industry in highsec FW got buffed to be more profitable than nullsec ratting, tons of us started farming FW Drone alloys were removed, highsec now has the best isk/hr ores Sure, but still different. One does not equal the other. Unless of course at the end, you guys just aren't pro-risk as you keep claiming to be. Maybe The Mittins needs to find a new crew to roll with.
Sorry, but no one is pro-risk. No one really wants risk for the sake of risk. This even applies to the no-local advocates because they often argue that delayed local will make it easier for them to infiltrate nullsec and move around with less risk. |
Karrl Tian
Yarrbusters
40
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Posted - 2012.11.19 22:49:00 -
[1460] - Quote
Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Frying Doom wrote: ... just like private industry is always more efficient than governments.
If only that were true. Speaking of lore... The Pirate faction ammo should be more powerful than empire faction ammo. They are pirates after all, and not being bound by rules or regulation on war and munitions productions.
By that logic, Somalia should have the best Navy on the planet. |
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Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
168
|
Posted - 2012.11.19 23:11:00 -
[1461] - Quote
Karrl Tian wrote:Shepard Wong Ogeko wrote:Frying Doom wrote: ... just like private industry is always more efficient than governments.
If only that were true. Speaking of lore... The Pirate faction ammo should be more powerful than empire faction ammo. They are pirates after all, and not being bound by rules or regulation on war and munitions productions. By that logic, Somalia should have the best Navy on the planet.
Considering that it took the combined effort of several first world naval powers to beat them back, they must have something going for them.
After all, these are guys that can turn fishing boats, stolen yachts and hijacked freighters into tools of war and plunder. And there is no doubt they have less reservations on how they conduct warfare than the professional navies..
In terms of in Eve stuff, the pirate faction ships are considered some of the best ships in the game and have prices to match. I find it odd that factions that can produce powerhouses like the Cynabal and Bhaalgorn and the most sought after implant sets make the most anemic faction ammo. |
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ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1077
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Posted - 2012.11.20 01:30:00 -
[1462] - Quote
Moved from General Discussion. ISD Suvetar,-áCaptain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department We are hiring! |
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Signal11th
Amarr Empire
819
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 15:56:00 -
[1463] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:Moved from General Discussion.
Being moved here is like a stealth lock. Well done :-) God Said "Come Forth and receive eternal life!"-á I came second and won a toaster. |
Shepard Wong Ogeko
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
169
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 21:54:00 -
[1464] - Quote
Signal11th wrote:ISD Suvetar wrote:Moved from General Discussion. Being moved here is like a stealth lock. Well done :-)
Well, these threads really need this sort of treatment. It is a dumb idea where the only result would be a major buff to covops cloaked gankers, and a major nerf to anyone in nullsec not traveling around in those oh so despised "blobs". |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
755
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Posted - 2012.11.20 22:08:00 -
[1465] - Quote
I wouldn't quite call it a lock.
Frankly, I think we need to use sensors and skills to be aware of our extended environment.
There is no reason why D-Scan could not be evolved into something more practical, with repeating pings at reasonable intervals if desired.
Active and passive scanning, combined with scan probes... Why exactly do we want to avoid this?
It's like saying the bicycle needs the little training wheels, or it will always fall over. That's not true at all, in fact at a certain point, the training wheels are what holds you back.
And the very idea that PvP will collapse, or bad things will happen if local is neutered... all assumptions with no viable data to support them. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Lord Zim
2051
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 22:15:00 -
[1466] - Quote
Nikk Narrel wrote:And the very idea that PvP will collapse, or bad things will happen if local is neutered... all assumptions with no viable data to support them. You're right, the fact we have local is the one and only reason literally everybody has moved their isk-making alts to hisec. If only we could remove local, everybody will come flocking back to make just a little more than they can in hisec, for more effort and so they can reship constantly because they constantly get ganked by roaming cloaked gangs. Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
755
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 22:27:00 -
[1467] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:Nikk Narrel wrote:And the very idea that PvP will collapse, or bad things will happen if local is neutered... all assumptions with no viable data to support them. You're right, the fact we have local is the one and only reason literally everybody has moved their isk-making alts to hisec. If only we could remove local, everybody will come flocking back to make just a little more than they can in hisec, for more effort and so they can reship constantly because they constantly get ganked by roaming cloaked gangs. Lord Zim, you are quite the clever fellow.
I see no indication of cloaked gangs dominating anything after such a change.
If anything, everyone will be effectively hidden. At least until someone with sensors goes to the trouble of finding them.
And as many pointed out, it would make sense for cloaked vessels to be possible to be hunted too, with no local.
They won't be truly cloaked anymore, just needing more effort to find. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Lord Zim
2051
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 22:36:00 -
[1468] - Quote
How would we hunt cloaked ships, then? Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Mordus Angels
755
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 23:37:00 -
[1469] - Quote
Lord Zim wrote:How would we hunt cloaked ships, then? With so many different flavors of ideas on that, I would say balance suggests matching effort and sacrifice to the cloaked vessel seems fitting.
They should need a skill to hunt cloaks, just like the cloaking pilots need a skill. They should also need a booster module, that allows their ship to see cloaked vessels.
Whether this module does it by decrypting sensor data, or floods an area of space with energy that disrupts the cloak, I think the devs can pick something appropriate.
The point is, the hunter will be just as specialized as the prey. It might even work best on special sensor enhanced ships like the covops frigate. Mount the hunting module instead of the cloak, add the pilot with the right skill, and you have a cloak tackler. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Lord Zim
2053
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 23:38:00 -
[1470] - Quote
In other words, something which makes WHs safer? Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home. |
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