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Rawthorm
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Posted - 2005.04.02 23:37:00 -
[1]
With all the ballancing changes that are being done, battleships as should be, wont be able to hit say a frigate with their primary weapons.
This however is a bit unrealistic to say that its fair to have a 125 million ISK ship be scrambled by an 15 million ISK asault frigate, unable to escape and as such spend 15 minutes dying.
It is said that we should mount a smaller gun to deal with faster ships but whats the point? Your greatly reducing your effectiveness as a battleship by fitting a smaller gun. What we need is a TRUE BS and Cruiser sized weapon for dealing with those pesky frigs and to that end I sugest a Small and Large Flak Cannon.
The weapon would have superb tracking and works like a real flak cannon, by spash damage. It only needs a max of 20-30km range on it so as to at least force frigs out of scrambling range even if it does not kill them quickly.
The other upside to such a weapon is that it would still have more clout than just mounting a 150mm rail on your Battleship if you want to use it on say a cruiser or another Battleship given its a weapon worthy of your ship class.
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Noriath
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Posted - 2005.04.03 00:32:00 -
[2]
While I generally agree with this, you have to take game balance into consideration. Almost everyone who fights regularly can afford to maintain a battleship. The only way anyone will ever use smaller ships in such an environment is if they have at least some advantages...
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Rawthorm
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Posted - 2005.04.03 01:54:00 -
[3]
Originally by: Noriath While I generally agree with this, you have to take game balance into consideration. Almost everyone who fights regularly can afford to maintain a battleship. The only way anyone will ever use smaller ships in such an environment is if they have at least some advantages...
Advantages? What about invunerability?
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ElfeGER
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Posted - 2005.04.03 11:31:00 -
[4]
when talking about BS size anti frig systems how about:
- Heavy NOS/Neutralizer - Cruise Missiles - Dones (Warrior)
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Soratah
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Posted - 2005.04.03 12:06:00 -
[5]
On the same subject. There are still one or two elements to combat which have no defence (or the defence is really poor) Like conventional Navies today possess sophisticated computer systems tied into anti-fighter anti-missile weapon systems. These are capable of targetting and destroying fast movers before they do damage.
Defenders are the only weapon that can intercept missiles (they're not too good at that) and not all Big battleships can carry missile launchers. Since the code doesnt yet allow for other players defenders to intercept enemy missiles to defend other player's big ships we have a problem.
Therefore, perhaps an Aegis or Gatling Array which tracks and fires ridiculously fast at a certain range (similar in damage to light scout drones) which can target small ships and incoming missiles. It's primarily geared for missile interception but can provide at least "some" defence against frigates.
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Zaldiri
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Posted - 2005.04.03 12:44:00 -
[6]
This is a game not a simulation... to be fun (the primary objective of any game) it needs ballance, this means you can't have kill all uber-ships.
Once battlehsip could hit everything, CCP have been working very hard to change this so frigates can acctualy be usefull in combat. If frigates are a real problam for you get someone to come with you in a destroyer.
Rise of Valhalla is now recruiting. We are looking for players of any level of experience. Please contact me or SSJ2VEGETA |
sukio
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Posted - 2005.04.03 13:51:00 -
[7]
well I do think the FITTING circle is very abstract and not very accurite I would much more like to see a display more reflecting a ship shape Ive allways been a tinkerer and would have many more sub boxes to be fitted on ships (they come with default equipment installed) like I would have boxes for armor modules, scanner packages, different slots for primary armerments and secondary armerment, an engineering deck where you have your core engine and its buffing modules (AB MWD) and as for haulers they would have several types of installables for their cargo bay like cargo expanders, staterooms, luxury suites, prison cells ect
the transport economy is prety bland and really not worth doing Id like to see a much better privateer approach so that hauling can be an interesting and exciting job even in small ships a player should be able to goto a stations shipping area and have no trouble locating cargos players should be able to also get a defined pay for bulk player shipments so that a small player can haul a load of tritainium for another player so you need 2 types of cargo, paleted like a case of missiles or bulk like minerals
example: a player in a small probe should be able to goto a station and pick up a load of ore that a player or corp wants hauled back to their corp hanger on another station This load is calculated on a default shipping rate (material type and distance hauled) adjusted for rush orders ect and a standard security deposite (bond) is put up. the bond would be the price of the shipment +15% and is forefit if the shipment fails to be delivered This creates a type of courier service.
as for item shipments it works similar crates are prepackaged in shiping containers 100 500 1000 5000 and a default amount is charged for each size and you could have the reward payment directly linked to the package being delivered so a pirate couldnt get what was inside but he could deliver the package himself and get the delivery fee.
so if a player had a bunch or ore to haul he would transfer the ore bulk to the shipping area select its destonation and other shiping particulars and upload payment cash like a shipper could even add a bonus for anyshipments delivered within 24 hours he could even spend money for advertizing the availability of the shipment to selected haulers.
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Sirilonwe
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Posted - 2005.04.03 14:15:00 -
[8]
I really don't see any problem to this. Battleships SHOULD BE escorted by cruisers/frigates, and never left alone.
Most people are whining about: now we can't kill frigs anymore. But Battleship AREN'T SUPPOSED to kill frigs!
So stop complaining, fit BS with BS weapons, and get an escort. _______________________ DSU Recrute! Corporation PVP FR, nous formons les nouveaux joueurs. Travail salariÚ. Contactez moi ingame. Forums DSU |
Cmdr Sy
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Posted - 2005.04.03 18:36:00 -
[9]
Dare I say, cruise missiles 47w?
Those things hurt.
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Rawthorm
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Posted - 2005.04.03 20:42:00 -
[10]
Originally by: El***ER when talking about BS size anti frig systems how about:
- Heavy NOS/Neutralizer - Cruise Missiles - Dones (Warrior)
We on the NOS front, not all ships especialy caldari have the PG to mount one. Cruise can fit on all ships and even so they cant hit a ceptor and with the upcoming nerf its gonna get worse. Again not all ships have a drone compliment, and considering drone targeting was nerf they dont hit for much atm. (plus drone AI needs improvement, especialy when ur jammed.)
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Rawthorm
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Posted - 2005.04.03 20:43:00 -
[11]
Originally by: Soratah On the same subject. There are still one or two elements to combat which have no defence (or the defence is really poor) Like conventional Navies today possess sophisticated computer systems tied into anti-fighter anti-missile weapon systems. These are capable of targetting and destroying fast movers before they do damage.
Defenders are the only weapon that can intercept missiles (they're not too good at that) and not all Big battleships can carry missile launchers. Since the code doesnt yet allow for other players defenders to intercept enemy missiles to defend other player's big ships we have a problem.
Therefore, perhaps an Aegis or Gatling Array which tracks and fires ridiculously fast at a certain range (similar in damage to light scout drones) which can target small ships and incoming missiles. It's primarily geared for missile interception but can provide at least "some" defence against frigates.
Only problem with this, is what why only have the Caldari have their weapons stoppable? We cant block a laser, projectile or Rail shot atm so as it is defenders are grossly unfair...
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Aleis
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Posted - 2005.04.04 05:42:00 -
[12]
the only thing i have to say to Battle ship Pilots about not having drone compliments? is
"What are you stupid!?"
every Battle ship has at least 1,500 drone space in which you can easily fit 10 light drones i'm sure (Still colculating...) and if you are trying to complain about losing a battleship to a frig then theres no way you should leave a station with out afull drone bay.
and teh other Complaint i hear from the pilots is "My ship isn't invulnerable anymore." well BooHoo And think about it for one second, a 1400mm artillery,...1400mm....thats a bullet almost a meter and a half in diameter and you going to try and get that to hit a mosquito sized ship? Sure i gues you could just blown up the entire house the mosquito is sitting on but thats not really hitting it.
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Sirilonwe
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Posted - 2005.04.04 07:35:00 -
[13]
Originally by: Rawthorm
We on the NOS front, not all ships especialy caldari have the PG to mount one.
That's mean: you're not skilled enough. I've got a Raven with 6 siege launcher (not named) and 2 heavy nos (not named), 5 PDU T2 in low slot and i got enough PW to fit what I want in mid slot.
Total powergrid: 15155. I never played with a scorp but i think this shouldn't be a real problem to, as i would fit ECM and they don't consume a lot of PW. _______________________ DSU Recrute! Corporation PVP FR, nous formons les nouveaux joueurs. Travail salariÚ. Contactez moi ingame. Forums DSU |
Sirkill
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Posted - 2005.04.04 13:07:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Rawthorm
Originally by: Soratah On the same subject. There are still one or two elements to combat which have no defence (or the defence is really poor) Like conventional Navies today possess sophisticated computer systems tied into anti-fighter anti-missile weapon systems. These are capable of targetting and destroying fast movers before they do damage.
Defenders are the only weapon that can intercept missiles (they're not too good at that) and not all Big battleships can carry missile launchers. Since the code doesnt yet allow for other players defenders to intercept enemy missiles to defend other player's big ships we have a problem.
Therefore, perhaps an Aegis or Gatling Array which tracks and fires ridiculously fast at a certain range (similar in damage to light scout drones) which can target small ships and incoming missiles. It's primarily geared for missile interception but can provide at least "some" defence against frigates.
Only problem with this, is what why only have the Caldari have their weapons stoppable? We cant block a laser, projectile or Rail shot atm so as it is defenders are grossly unfair...
Oh no the missiles can be shot down oh help!!! I means it so unfair! our uber weapon that hardly ever misses can get shot down once in a while! I mean it hardly puts them above turrets which miss half the time!
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Tar om
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Posted - 2005.04.04 13:31:00 -
[15]
BS need to be able to defend themselves against frigates. Calling for BS pilots to be escorted is pointless in the long run because if the real battle shifts to escorts vs frigates then the battleship become irrelevant. Why? Consider the following. Frigs learn to destroy BS. BS require Frigate escort. Enemy now requires frigates to destroy the escorting frigates before getting at the BS. Enemy goes all frigate, wipes out escort, then kills BS.
Why bring the BS in the first place if the battle is determined by frigates? Its like playing scissor, paper, stone and bringing a sausage.
Tar-om -- We are the Octavian Vanguard www.octavianvanguard.net http://www.serenitymovie.com |
Taawus
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Posted - 2005.04.04 17:24:00 -
[16]
Edited by: Taawus on 04/04/2005 17:31:19
Originally by: Sirilonwe I really don't see any problem to this. Battleships SHOULD BE escorted by cruisers/frigates, and never left alone.
Most people are whining about: now we can't kill frigs anymore. But Battleship AREN'T SUPPOSED to kill frigs!
So stop complaining, fit BS with BS weapons, and get an escort.
LOL... IS THERE ALWAYS someone who protects your BIG ASS??? let¦s take AK and go take out TANK LOL
or let¦s take Everquest2 I¦m a f***** lv5 noob with first weapon and I go to kill LV60 enemy!!!
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Taawus
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Posted - 2005.04.04 17:46:00 -
[17]
Quote:
and teh other Complaint i hear from the pilots is "My ship isn't invulnerable anymore." well BooHoo And think about it for one second, a 1400mm artillery,...1400mm....thats a bullet almost a meter and a half in diameter and you going to try and get that to hit a mosquito sized ship? Sure i gues you could just blown up the entire house the mosquito is sitting on but thats not really hitting it.
HA and u think that 220mm bullet makes a hole into 1,6m metal(armor) LOL frigates can only scratch BS armor with those "guns"
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benwallace
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Posted - 2005.04.04 23:58:00 -
[18]
Originally by: Sirilonwe
Originally by: Rawthorm
We on the NOS front, not all ships especialy caldari have the PG to mount one.
That's mean: you're not skilled enough. I've got a Raven with 6 siege launcher (not named) and 2 heavy nos (not named), 5 PDU T2 in low slot and i got enough PW to fit what I want in mid slot.
Total powergrid: 15155. I never played with a scorp but i think this shouldn't be a real problem to, as i would fit ECM and they don't consume a lot of PW.
Rawthorm ownz your skilz btw and he was talking about mounting them with 5 pdu II and some people use 3 pdu IIs and 2x named ballistic you can fit 6 siegs and 2 heavy nos --------------------------
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Aleis
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Posted - 2005.04.05 03:10:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Taawus
HA and u think that 220mm bullet makes a hole into 1,6m metal(armor) LOL frigates can only scratch BS armor with those "guns"
if you really want a desicrepency the fact that a 125mm gun uses the same ammo as a 280mm gun does, but it's only a game not a simulation
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Sirilonwe
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Posted - 2005.04.05 08:18:00 -
[20]
Originally by: Taawus Edited by: Taawus on 04/04/2005 17:31:19
LOL... IS THERE ALWAYS someone who protects your BIG ASS??? let¦s take AK and go take out TANK LOL
or let¦s take Everquest2 I¦m a f***** lv5 noob with first weapon and I go to kill LV60 enemy!!!
Don't be silly, i don't talk about noobs frigs. I'm talking about inties, bombers, ASO.
BS shouldn't have frigs sized weapons. They are designed to take down cruisers, and battleships.
If you get annoyed by a swarm of frigates, use drones or smartbombs (if you got any). BS should never be left off drones. Even I rarely use them, my drones have taken me out of bad situation (lvl4 missions, spider drones).
In PVP, i NEVER go out without one inty or covert ops.
And your comparison with everquest 2 is irrelevant: noobs in frigates aren't a danger for battleships. But they're many experienced players in advanced frigs that are a danger. _______________________ DSU Recrute! Corporation PVP FR, nous formons les nouveaux joueurs. Travail salariÚ. Contactez moi ingame. Forums DSU |
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Sirilonwe
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Posted - 2005.04.05 08:20:00 -
[21]
Originally by: benwallace
Rawthorm ownz your skilz btw and he was talking about mounting them with 5 pdu II and some people use 3 pdu IIs and 2x named ballistic you can fit 6 siegs and 2 heavy nos
I know i'm far not the best here. I was only saying that his whining about the powergrid aren't founded. Skilled people don't have PG problems. _______________________ DSU Recrute! Corporation PVP FR, nous formons les nouveaux joueurs. Travail salariÚ. Contactez moi ingame. Forums DSU |
Nicholai Pestot
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Posted - 2005.04.05 10:24:00 -
[22]
Originally by: Tar om BS need to be able to defend themselves against frigates. Calling for BS pilots to be escorted is pointless in the long run because if the real battle shifts to escorts vs frigates then the battleship become irrelevant. Why? Consider the following. Frigs learn to destroy BS. BS require Frigate escort. Enemy now requires frigates to destroy the escorting frigates before getting at the BS. Enemy goes all frigate, wipes out escort, then kills BS.
Why bring the BS in the first place if the battle is determined by frigates? Its like playing scissor, paper, stone and bringing a sausage.
Tar-om
The way it (should) work
Frigate swarms trash battleships but get owned by destroyers
Destroyers get owned by battleships
Cruisers are of equall value against all
Of course it doesnt work like this because:-
Cruisers suck (mostly)
Swarms of frigates are not an effective long-term tactic as the most valuable resource in this game is the player, so if facing an enemy battleships its better to bring 10 battleships and gank him, then do it the 'proper' way with 10 frigates working together.
Tech 2 destroyers are not out yet, so there is no ship dedicated to taking out tech 2 frigs (other than other tech 2 frigs)
Now a generic reply
In all honesty, a single frigate vs a single battleship with both players of the same skill, will more often result in a draw/death of the frigate then anything else. It takes a player with alot of skill (both trained and learned) to take out a player battleship solo in a frig, and his target needs to have none of the following
-Heavy nos -Missiles -Drones
If the complaint is that 2 or 3 frigates working together can take out a battleship...well tough.You were out numbered and out organised, you deserve to die.
If the complaint is that its to easy for a frigate to tackle you for other ships, once again tough, cos he is working with other people, your just flying solo. Once again you SHOULD die to a greater number of well organised people. I have supped the milk of human kindness, and discovered i am lactose intolerant |
Frank Swap
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Posted - 2005.04.05 12:12:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Frank Swap on 05/04/2005 12:12:02
Originally by: El***ER when talking about BS size anti frig systems how about:
- Heavy NOS/Neutralizer These use a ton of resources and only go 20km or so - Cruise Missiles These wont catch a interceptor - Dones (Warrior) These do CRAP dammage and can be easily tanked
omg.. it keeps posting with my alt..
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Shira d'Radonis
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Posted - 2005.04.05 12:44:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Shira d''Radonis on 05/04/2005 12:45:22 I kind of like the idea of flak cannons, but not so much from a game standpoint but rather because I think they would be implemented by the navies in this world of EVE. I think that relatively fast tracking and high ROF but a BS-level weight on CPU and PG resources might work. Basically, I think it should be like having multiple small gun turrets, so you'd only need one, but it would provide at least some kind of defense.
As was pointed out, battleships, from a PvP standpoint, have been rendered somewhat irrelevant. If the only thing a BS can take out is another BS, then why have them at all? I suppose that they will probably be good anti-dreadnought weapons eventually... assuming that dreadnoughts are properly balanced.
But I mean, if one thinks about an RTS game, any unit has its strength and weaknesses against another unit type. Similarly, in EVE, every ship should have advantages and disadvantages when engaging another ship type. I don't see that as really being the case right now. Battleships shouldn't be the end-all killing machines, but they need to particularly useful against something.
The question we should ask ourselves right now is: Is their value worth their cost? I'd say that right now, from a pvp standpoint, the answer is no. -----------------------------------------------
ôàquod ad ius naturale attinet, omnes homines aequales suntö
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Sirkill
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Posted - 2005.04.05 16:59:00 -
[25]
Battleships are hardly irrelavent.
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