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Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
558
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:07:00 -
[1] - Quote
I remember a long time back there was a corp selling second-hand ships.
I'm not sure how well that business went. Advertising things that were in fact brand new as second-hand is probably not the best business model one could think of.
I had a freighter I paid 800m for over 12 months. It did hundreds of jumps, bumped into gates, stations, ships all kinds of things. It endured the rigours of warp space travel so well that I sold it for 1.2b after I came back from a 4 month break.
It never cost a single isk in all that time for maintenance/repair.
Nothing loses value over time. Pos's, ships, modules, drones... There are maintenance bills for some things, sure, but maintenance should not stop ageing of assets.
- Is depreciation of assets over time a good isk sink? - Would it be a passive and consistent market-driver? (eg: when PvP is not killing enough ships by itself) - Can some arbitrary wear-and-tear (eg: ehp reduction?) factor be built in?
Your thoughts....
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Riot Girl
RADIO RAMPAGE Initiative Mercenaries
301
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:11:00 -
[2] - Quote
It would make sense that there should be maintenance, refitting and refuelling costs. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1852
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:13:00 -
[3] - Quote
If there is one priority that CCP needs to focus on, it's ISK. They need to turn off the taps and pull the plug to start draining some out of the economy.
Degradation of stuff and the required payment to keep it in top shape is certainly one way to do that.
mr Epeen There is no excuse beyond fatalistic self-indulgence and sheer laziness for doing nothing --á Iain Banks |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp. R O G U E
488
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:14:00 -
[4] - Quote
or charge isk based on the size of the ship when using gates. just like jump bridges. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
558
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:20:00 -
[5] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:or charge isk based on the size of the ship when using gates. just like jump bridges. i like.
jb's not neccessary tho' they already cost a LOT to own and run. "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Vaal Erit
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
352
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:22:00 -
[6] - Quote
Titans and supercarriers should have some decent upkeep to them, but other ships? Nah. |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp. R O G U E
489
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Dave stark wrote:or charge isk based on the size of the ship when using gates. just like jump bridges. i like. jb's not neccessary tho' they already cost a LOT to own and run.
i meant, the isk charge changing based on the size of the ship. iirc it costs more fuel to use a jb with a freighter than a frig, for example. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
558
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:If there is one priority that CCP needs to focus on, it's ISK. They need to turn off the taps and pull the plug to start draining some out of the economy. Degradation of stuff and the required payment to keep it in top shape is certainly one way to do that. Mr Epeen Maintenance costs yes.
I'm also suggesting a depreciation that is "not preventable".
A frig bought last week might incur 1% depreciation of "ehp" for example. At 90 days weeks it may have lost 20% of it's inherent ehp.
They truly become second-hand. Lack of maintenance might accelerate depreciation?
(numbers are random, out-of-air for argument sake btw) "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1464
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:25:00 -
[9] - Quote
Would be something to think about once they get proper combat damage as showcased during Fanfest. If the whole skin suffered visual wear and tear the more you used it without real detrimental effects, and you can "clean" it with the repair shop. That's one way to go about it. Because if there was true stat adjustment, what would constitute wear and tear? The more times it suffered hull damage? More often than not, at that point, you will rarely escape and go "aww man, all my stats are down 5% because of heavy use..." Hours spent in space? That's just punishing the players who play more. As if clone costs weren't enough punishment for that as it is. How about jump amount? A bit unfair to those in nul or low that end up traveling a ton for a fight. Bet I guess it could be adjusted so combat ships wear down far less often than say industrial. Then Industrial usage in high would likely see a constant isk drain if wear effected agility. Or if mining wear effected yield. Yet what about those in WH space? New POS redesign would help this but a hanger may not be acceptable for all POS sizes.
It would be a interesting mechanic for a sink. Yet the balance of annoyance and practical addition to the game is a bit sketchy. How often would it be deemed necessary? The actual cost. The effects to those that don't live in stations? |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
558
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:26:00 -
[10] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:Touval Lysander wrote:Dave stark wrote:or charge isk based on the size of the ship when using gates. just like jump bridges. i like. jb's not neccessary tho' they already cost a LOT to own and run. i meant, the isk charge changing based on the size of the ship. iirc it costs more fuel to use a jb with a freighter than a frig, for example. they do. big time.
try flipping a carrier thru a jb too many times. you'll get called out "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
28
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:34:00 -
[11] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:or charge isk based on the size of the ship when using gates. just like jump bridges. would help but the station traders are a bit of the problem Wealth centralization. All that ISK is not spread out in EVE There are specific groups with a majority. Breaking them of all that ISK is the better plan. A regressive tax basically. Quite surprised it doesnt exist already given how effective they are in real life at preventing centralization. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1852
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:39:00 -
[12] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:If there is one priority that CCP needs to focus on, it's ISK. They need to turn off the taps and pull the plug to start draining some out of the economy. Degradation of stuff and the required payment to keep it in top shape is certainly one way to do that. Mr Epeen Maintenance costs yes. I'm also suggesting a depreciation that is "not preventable". A frig bought last week might incur 1% depreciation of "ehp" for example. At 90 days weeks it may have lost 20% of it's inherent ehp. They truly become second-hand. Lack of maintenance might accelerate depreciation? (numbers are random, out-of-air for argument sake btw)
I agree.
And this is coming from someone who is sitting on 60 billion plus worth of ship hulls. So it's not me wishing it on someone else. It's me accepting that it would be for the good of the game.
Mr Epeen
There is no excuse beyond fatalistic self-indulgence and sheer laziness for doing nothing --á Iain Banks |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
558
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:39:00 -
[13] - Quote
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote: If the whole skin suffered visual wear and tear the more you used it without real detrimental effects, and you can "clean" it with the repair shop. That's one way to go about it.
Because if there was true stat adjustment, what would constitute wear and tear? The more times it suffered hull damage? More often than not, at that point, you will rarely escape and go "aww man, all my stats are down 5% because of heavy use..."
How about jump amount? A bit unfair to those in nul or low that end up traveling a ton for a fight.
Bet I guess it could be adjusted so combat ships wear down far less often than say industrial.
Then Industrial usage in high would likely see a constant isk drain if wear effected agility. Or if mining wear effected yield.
Yet what about those in WH space? New POS redesign would help this but a hanger may not be acceptable for all POS sizes.
It would be a interesting mechanic for a sink. Yet the balance of annoyance and practical addition to the game is a bit sketchy. How often would it be deemed necessary? The actual cost. The effects to those that don't live in stations?
Good questions.
Cleaning could be a good sink. "When/If" skins come out, be even more relevant?
High gate prices for jumps (not my idea but...) - I'd see that as a positive for massive fleets travelling 30-40 jumps to a fight. It would make blue bridges etc. more effective while red has to do it the hard way.
On ship combat effectiveness, I see this as being a bonus. Those that die less often will be flying in ships constantly falling apart around them. Be quite funny. I can see l33ts claiming they killed x flying a 34% combat reduced frig.
It'll become a new cult... (In Australia we have Mongrel Ute Gathering - the ugliest dirtiest nastiest ute - slang for utility - wins the prize! Serious...)
And yes, on inyd/barges etc. speed agaility and yield should be affected the longer you keep your ship "intact" as it were. Carebear Hulks will die - eventually......
And truly, in Eve, where can't a POS/station or something be found to dock occasionally. If you can't find one, you need a compass, not a maintenance bay.
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Dave stark
Black Nova Corp. R O G U E
490
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:40:00 -
[14] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote:Mr Epeen wrote:If there is one priority that CCP needs to focus on, it's ISK. They need to turn off the taps and pull the plug to start draining some out of the economy. Degradation of stuff and the required payment to keep it in top shape is certainly one way to do that. Mr Epeen Maintenance costs yes. I'm also suggesting a depreciation that is "not preventable". A frig bought last week might incur 1% depreciation of "ehp" for example. At 90 days weeks it may have lost 20% of it's inherent ehp. They truly become second-hand. Lack of maintenance might accelerate depreciation? (numbers are random, out-of-air for argument sake btw)
having to buy a new ship every time there's a fleet forming so you're not flying something with 30k ehp when every one else is sitting pretty at nearly 100k or something in the same ship?
no thanks.
depreciation should only be included if it can be fixed in a station for a nominal isk cost, y'know like fixing heat damaged modules. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Inquisitor Kitchner
Galaxy Punks Executive Outcomes
324
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
This is a terrible idea. This game is complicated enough without having to micromanage about 22 ships too to make sure they haven't got a 10% "ship is too old to fly" penalty to EHP "If an injury has to be done to a man it should be so severe that his vengeance need not be feared." - Niccolo Machiavelli |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
558
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:42:00 -
[16] - Quote
Mr Epeen wrote:And this is coming from someone who is sitting on 60 billion plus worth of ship hulls. So it's not me wishing it on someone else. It's me accepting that it would be for the good of the game. Mr Epeen Wasn't even something I considered. Perhaps it should only apply when xyz has been unpackaged/assembled? "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1465
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:46:00 -
[17] - Quote
People cant always find a hanger to repair at, ex: caps built in holes. Or super caps period Horrible hassle to POS dwellers to cycle out ships to get them repaired after X amount of time.
Perhaps just launch it as visual cosmetic over hours played in space. And see how much everyone would actually spend to stay pretty. And depending on its success and providing there is the ability that everyone could properly repair themselves no matter where they lived... experiment on real effects. Like those that always live in wormhole space could develop oiled sansha skins due to wormhole exposure and are repaired in wormhole. And if they could be sold as a Oiled Tengu. Perhaps there would be a whole new market of "used" trade rather than "look at how much less effective this well worn ship is".
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Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
558
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
Inquisitor Kitchner wrote: This is a terrible idea. This game is complicated enough without having to micromanage about 22 ships too to make sure they haven't got a 10% "ship is too old to fly" penalty to EHP
22 ships. All combat ships? All requiring 100% ehp/weapon effectiveness all the time?
But it's a good point if your garage is big and comprehensively filled with every type of ship.
Don't forget that the "other guy" faces exact same issues. It should never be a disadvantage to any party.
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Casirio
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
88
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Posted - 2012.10.31 21:53:00 -
[19] - Quote
Having to pay to jump through a NPC stargate is the worst idea I've ever heard. Depreciation is one thing, I wouldnt mind seeing that. But it should be simple as repairing your ship in the repair shop, or having a specialized ship to do it for you (could be a new career.?) Eve should always be proactive about keeping isk in the hands of players not giving it to an NPC for no reason other than to make an isk sink... |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
558
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Posted - 2012.10.31 22:02:00 -
[20] - Quote
Casirio wrote:Having to pay to jump through a NPC stargate is the worst idea I've ever heard. Depreciation is one thing, I wouldnt mind seeing that. But it should be simple as repairing your ship in the repair shop, or having a specialized ship to do it for you (could be a new career.?) Eve should always be proactive about keeping isk in the hands of players not giving it to an NPC for no reason other than to make an isk sink... The idea of depreciation based on number of ships and how long you keep them as a sink is quite sound. Eve is about losing isk - in as greater quantities as you can possibly afford to lose.
Accumulation and risk aversion purely to "keep my isk" is killing the game tbh. Those that won't "lose" or "commit" ships to glorious space dust have it done "for them".
Rich players with 100 ships gonna have high bills. Promotes specialisation?
Note: The -intent- of the thread is to thrash out ideas. A bad point might bring in someone's thoughts for a solution. That's what it's about. "Bad", "terrible" and "horrible" are only true when there is no solution to it being so. "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1466
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Posted - 2012.10.31 22:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
Casirio wrote: Eve should always be proactive about keeping isk in the hands of players not giving it to an NPC for no reason other than to make an isk sink... Problem is that it is too effective at doing just that. There is always more isk flowing in than flowing out right now. The new wardec cost may or may not have done anything at all as people will less frivolously toss money for decs. But the amount of ground sinks need to make up for is pretty staggering. Will be back with precise numbers: from this years fanfest monthly 4Q average Faucets: NPC Bounties 26 trillion wormhole 8.9 trillion Incusion 8 trillion Mission rewards 4.3 trillion Other 3.4 trillion Sinks: Skillbooks 6.8 trillion Blueprints 6.1 trillion Fees and tax 3.7 trillion Other 4.6 trillion
50 in, 26 out. that was 24 trillion inflow per MONTH. |
Casirio
DEEP-SPACE CO-OP LTD Exhale.
90
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Posted - 2012.10.31 22:09:00 -
[22] - Quote
Paying to jump through NPC stargates: Its a terrible idea because it would give a reason not to travel, to camp gates more, new players not having the isk to make it to that null sec to pew so they dont. In general make people have one less reason to roam around New Eden. I mean really does it have to be spelled? |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
558
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Posted - 2012.10.31 22:15:00 -
[23] - Quote
I reconsiderd reduction in performance (because of depreciation) and see it is a bad idea.
The fix is that depreciation only escalates maintenance costs to keep the ship at 100& effectiveness.
The older the ship the more it costs to fix. Replacement at some point is inevitable. It becomes both a good sink and a boost to the player economy. (I'll add this to my OP)
"I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1467
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Posted - 2012.10.31 22:33:00 -
[24] - Quote
Touval Lysander wrote: The older the ship the more it costs to fix. Replacement at some point is inevitable. It becomes both a good sink and a boost to the player economy. (I'll add this to my OP)
Cashing in ships with insurance at a calculated time or just replacing them or just grinding them down to minerals isn't a sink. Its still just shuffling isk or more faucet work with insurance. A proper sink needs isk eventually get sucked up by a npc. Keeping ships around to constantly be repaired in a meaningful way would push isk out. If damage was limited to parts you could live with slowly degrading for a good while, it wouldn't be as invasive. Like Heat damage addition, or warp speed penalty. like 6.0AU to 5.9 AU within a week or so. To a max of 10% damage, so 5.4 AU. Those freighters will be repairing all the damn time. |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
558
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Posted - 2012.10.31 22:40:00 -
[25] - Quote
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Touval Lysander wrote: The older the ship the more it costs to fix. Replacement at some point is inevitable. It becomes both a good sink and a boost to the player economy. (I'll add this to my OP)
Cashing in ships with insurance at a calculated time or just replacing them or just grinding them down to minerals isn't a sink. Its still just shuffling isk or more faucet work with insurance. A proper sink needs isk eventually get sucked up by a npc. Keeping ships around to constantly be repaired in a meaningful way would push isk out. If damage was limited to parts you could live with slowly degrading for a good while, it wouldn't be as invasive. Like Heat damage addition, or warp speed penalty. like 6.0AU to 5.9 AU within a week or so. To a max of 10% damage, so 5.4 AU. Those freighters will be repairing all the damn time. Yeah, I see what you mean.
I suppose ship performance SHOULD degrade as long as the option to fix to 100% is included. If you choose not to pay the maintenance (to NPC) your ship performance will suffer. We also need to escalate the costs (% x age) to make replacement cost effective at some point. (modifying OP again) "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Nexus Day
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
73
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Posted - 2012.10.31 22:44:00 -
[26] - Quote
Repair/maintenance costs in games where real money can be used to buy items is always a bit touchy. |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1467
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Posted - 2012.10.31 22:47:00 -
[27] - Quote
Nexus Day wrote:Repair/maintenance costs in games where real money can be used to buy items is always a bit touchy. We I think are well beyond that when a frig full of plex can be vaporized and nothing drops. |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
558
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Posted - 2012.10.31 22:48:00 -
[28] - Quote
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote: This with a added repair in the right mouse menu in inventory to quickly repair items than the current messy repair UI would decrease the hassle.
Same with visual cues that your current piloted ship is suffering damage would be the highlight of your current ship could change from green to yellow to red.
And decay should only ever happen to ships you're currently using.
From a coding POV, one additional ship field and the inclusion of the value at repair time is easy enough. Checking the condition of ship etc. is a good habit anyway. This might promote development of a better repair UI too.
I'm not suggesting that the degradation should occur at any speed that would be noticeable in real time. So visual cues would be moot.
And on not using ships means no bills. Not so sure. Depreciation shouldn't be something you can pick and choose. If you own 100 ships you need to pay 100 bills. The biggest sinks should be occuring to the richest players imo. "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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Nexus Day
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
73
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Posted - 2012.10.31 22:49:00 -
[29] - Quote
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:Nexus Day wrote:Repair/maintenance costs in games where real money can be used to buy items is always a bit touchy. We I think are well beyond that when a frig full of plex can be vaporized and nothing drops. Depends on how risk averse you are. Remember a large portion of the population would be too scared to transport said Plex.
Edit: Said isk instead of Plex. |
Touval Lysander
Zero Wine
558
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Posted - 2012.10.31 22:51:00 -
[30] - Quote
Nexus Day wrote:Repair/maintenance costs in games where real money can be used to buy items is always a bit touchy. Moot point. Real money (RM) can be used to buy whatever ship whenever.
SP's are the only real limiter and even that's circumventable with RM - i.e. char bazaar. "I've always been mad, I know I've been mad, like the most of us...very hard to explain why you're mad, even if you're not mad..."
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