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Sticky:[Winter] Ewar Tweaks for Retribution

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Author	Thread Statistics \| Show CCP posts - 14 post(s)
TrouserDeagle Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel 80	Posted - 2012.11.02 22:47:00 - [91] - Quote Why aren't you deleting ECM drones?
Pawnee Ministry of War Amarr Empire 10	Posted - 2012.11.02 22:51:00 - [92] - Quote I am a little worried Mr Fozzie tries to turn my beloved Falcon into the new Pilgrim (most useless Recon of the game) ? That would make Caldari have the most worthless Force Recon and Combat Recon. (And on top of that they get a Missile nerf.) When we talk about game mechanics, it is time to talk about weaknesses of Falcons in particular, because Mr Fozzie wants to change ECM and does not mention that ship, while he mentions some other ECM specialized ship. 1) Falcons have the worst cap of all cruisers. It means after longer warps, the cap of a Falcon will be empty. In kiting battles Falcons run out of cap quickly. It is 100km something and the cap is empty. Then the ship can not follow anymore and therefore no more jam. It has to warp out, re-cap and come back again. 2) Against Drone boats Falcons suck GÇô if the drone boat launches its Drones before you lock and Jam. 3) Falcons have a paper-thin tank. As said, it is better to focus all on ECM, then try to failfit for tank. ECM + Tank will never be possible together. That means, either the Falcon jams all DPS incoming or it vaporizes quickly. It is only useful in small gangs therefore. 4) Falcons are very weak alone. It is the combinations of ships, which makes Falcons appear so powerful. Like Sabre + Falcon. Or Falcon + Black Ops gang. Often these ships are fragile themselves. CCP buffed all Frigs and Drestroyers twice, did not care about Interdictors. If CCP nerfs Falcons, these other ships will be nerfed in their effectiveness, too. However ECM will most likely be replace by Logistics ships. Then no more ECM, but often Remote Rep will frustrate the current ECM haters. Not everybody wants to do purely in-the-face RVB/Militia frig frag fests. Like get 50 cheap new ships and then throw them away. Especially Black ops teams can not afford to work that way. If you operate in enemy territory in 0.0, you can not afford to lose your ship or get it heavily damaged. It would be the end of the op and cost much time to replace or repair. Unless you do metagaming - there is always a way around. I am not sure, what CCP Fozzie tries to do here will satisfy me. I am a Vet. I do not want to re-skill to reach a skill level, which i had before. I can afford thousands of t1 Frigs and Cruisers. I avoided the Drake since years now, because I flew it as noobi so often until I was fed up of it. If you buff t1 ships, more exotic ship classes like i.e. Field command ships or Electronic attack ships will become even more obsolet and rare. It will never work to "balance" ship classes in little steps and several patches. You change something, you change relations between ship classes. I doubt vets will be happy about this patch. I see nothing, I can skill for, so I get a new shiny toy or new useful skill. You will just switch FOTM from one ship class to another. If it goes really wrong, some t1 hulls will be better than the following t2 hulls. You also did not mention the Kitsune. Electronic Attack ships are rare, because they die so fast - all of them. What happened to the idea to allow a Covert ops cloak on them? It would give these t2 Frigs the choice to pick their fights better. Btw small ECM drones sometimes even jam Falcons. If I see lots of them on the field, I think twice whether I uncloak a Falcon or not. ECM drones can be easily killed by Smartbombs. However a Falcon has heavy capacitor problems already. So most Falcons do not fit a Smart bomb.
Dessau 75	Posted - 2012.11.02 22:54:00 - [93] - Quote Excellent. I was hoping for a skills-based mechanic as part of the rebalance. Now I know how I will spend the first ~52 days of Retribution. Cheers, CCP. Channel 'Asymmetrics'. PvP for gentlepersons.
Scatim Helicon GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation 1004	Posted - 2012.11.02 23:13:00 - [94] - Quote Pawnee wrote: I am a little worried Mr Fozzie tries to turn my beloved Falcon into the new Pilgrim (most useless Recon of the game) ? That will only happen if the Rook gets back its optimal bonus. Titans were never meant to be "cost effective", its a huge **.-á- CCP Oveur, 2006 ~If you want a picture of the future of WiS, imagine a spaceship, stamping on an avatar's face. Forever.
TheBreadMuncher Boxxed Up Industries EPIC Alliance 381	Posted - 2012.11.02 23:28:00 - [95] - Quote Why do TDs not affect missiles like you proposed...? "We will create the introduction thread if that is requested by the community. Also, we will have an ISD Seminar about the CCL team in the coming weeks in which you can ask your questions about the CCL team and provide some constructive feedback to us." - Countless pages of locked threads and numerous permabanned accounts later, change is coming.
Tau Cabalander Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs 1073	Posted - 2012.11.02 23:35:00 - [96] - Quote Change ECCM II module to: * Increases sensor strength. * Reduces jam duration by 50%. * Scripts to either increase sensor strength or reduce jam duration further.
Goldensaver Vorbild Industries Inc. 79	Posted - 2012.11.02 23:47:00 - [97] - Quote TheBreadMuncher wrote: Why do TDs not affect missiles like you proposed...? Because then TDs as far as the eye can see? Do you really see no issue with letting one module affect every single non-drone ship in game in a way that makes them almost worthless to fly? At least ECM needs to dedicate 4 midslots, and their rigs and any lowslots they can spare to doing that. This would be a one module fits all sort of thing.
Marlona Sky D00M. Northern Coalition. 1766	Posted - 2012.11.02 23:49:00 - [98] - Quote TrouserDeagle wrote: Why aren't you deleting ECM drones? It's funny that all other non-damage drones in the game combined does not even begin to come close to the amount ECM drones are used. That says something. Remove local, structure mails and revamp the directional scanner!
Mr Floydy The Xenodus Initiative. Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork 41	Posted - 2012.11.02 23:52:00 - [99] - Quote Another vote for doing anything with ECM drones. Massively reduce the jam time please. Just a pure lock break alone would still be damn powerful.
Val'Dore PlanetCorp InterStellar 146	Posted - 2012.11.03 00:05:00 - [100] - Quote Val'Dore wrote: Several Adjustments: Amarr = EW Optimal Caldari = EW Duration Gallente = Efficiency Minmatar = Falloff Sample EW Skill Bonus Changes: Arbitrator: 10% TP, TD, RSD Optimal Range Bellicose: 10% TP, TD, RSD Falloff Range Blackbird: 10% TP, TD, RSD Duration Celestis: 10% TP, TD, RSD Cap Use New ECM Role Bonuses: Arbitrator: 100% Ladar ECM Strength Bellicose: 100% Radar ECM Strength Blackbird: 100% Magnetometric ECM Strength Celestis: 100% Gravimetric ECM Strength Recons would have their flavors: webs, neuts, drones, scrams, etc. No Universal ECM Ship. Period. Star Jump Drive
M1k3y Koontz Blackened Skies Nulli Secunda 54	Posted - 2012.11.03 00:26:00 - [101] - Quote Quote: Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 5% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 3 skills in the Electronics category) Do you realize what kind of monster your creating in the falcon? If it wasn't OP before, it will only get worse now, another 25% to the strength, even with the range nerf, will be just insane. People will continue to fly Scorpion fleets and Widows just as much as they do now, but Falcons will just get even more OP. Please, don't add these 5% racial bonus, it will only hurt small gang PVP Edit: Damn the trolls in my alliance -.- ECCM comp skills VERY* good idea, no more because of falcon Also no more Drakeblob (TM) jamming out half our fleet's scimis How much herp could a herp derp derp if a herp derp could herp derp.
Lili Lu 575	Posted - 2012.11.03 00:27:00 - [102] - Quote Goldensaver wrote: TheBreadMuncher wrote: Why do TDs not affect missiles like you proposed...? Because then TDs as far as the eye can see? Do you really see no issue with letting one module affect every single non-drone ship in game in a way that makes them almost worthless to fly? At least ECM needs to dedicate 4 midslots, and their rigs and any lowslots they can spare to doing that. This would be a one module fits all sort of thing. We don't know whether it will be a sister module or a script. The argument you make supports the sister module suggestion. Either way, In thinking more about it, the op nerf on TD strength is definitely too timid. Otherwise yes there is the potential for TDs to become a must have module. However, one other difference you missed between ecm and TD is that that Caldari ewar is unversally effective, even if it requires 4 different modules for having a good chance to be effective on ships that are usually have more mids. And that effect when effective will always be more effective than the other ewars, at least under the current mechanics. Amarr deserves an ewar that is not worthless against probably a third of the ships used in the game.
Lili Lu 575	Posted - 2012.11.03 00:28:00 - [103] - Quote M1k3y Koontz wrote: Quote: *Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 5% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 3 skills in the Electronics category) Do you realize what kind of monster your creating in the falcon? If it wasn't OP before, it will only get worse now, another 25% to the strength, even with the range nerf, will be just insane. People will continue to fly Scorpion fleets and Widows just as much as they do now, but Falcons will just get even more OP. Please, don't add these 5% racial bonus, it will only hurt small gang PVP Either you are wrong or most of the readers of this thread are wrong. I believe most of us read this as applying to everyone in game as a defensive skill against ecm, not an ecm specialist set of skills that buff ecm modules.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Casoff 387	Posted - 2012.11.03 01:00:00 - [104] - Quote Crosspost. I haven't looked at the prices for these modules in a while, though. Benny Ohu wrote: Are you considering making T2 EWAR worth taking while you are rebalancing disruption frigates? Right now Meta 4 is better than T2. T2 was cheaper than Meta 4 for a while, but with the whole Technetium business Meta 4 was cheaper and better. With the rebalancing of T2 armour plates, T2 EWAR is the only T2 set of mods with worse stats than their Meta 4 equivalents (I think). What is the design goal for T2 modules over Meta 4 in general? Is EWAR an intended exception? Meta 4 ECM Tech 2 ECM Meta 4 Tracking Disruptor Tech 2 TD The activation cost and fitting requirements are both better for Meta 4. This is also true for Sensor Dampers, Target Painters, ECCM, Sensor Backup Arrays, Projected ECCM and ECM burst.
Max Kolonko High Voltage Industries Ash Alliance 205	Posted - 2012.11.03 01:01:00 - [105] - Quote because of falcon Read and support: Don't mess with OUR WH's What is Your stance on WH stuff?
Theo Ramone School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State 5	Posted - 2012.11.03 01:15:00 - [106] - Quote Since we're going to reduce the effects of ECM's can we also get some skills to reduce the effects of energy nuet/vamp? Maybe a skill which hardens your capacitor to make x amount protected from modules that neut/vamp the cap levels? Frankly, in the "Oh jesus run" list of ships the ewar ranks pretty low. The energy war ships (I'm looking at you pilgrim and curse) scare the bejesus out of me. I dont see too many solo rooks and falcons. Cant really say the same of pilgrims and curses. ETA: Oh, can you buff the tank on the ewar ships if your nerfing the jam abilities. Seeing s the jam chance is the only tank.....It would be nice to have a little bit of backup to the increased chance of failure thats coming.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Casoff 387	Posted - 2012.11.03 01:26:00 - [107] - Quote Have you tried capacitor batteries? There was a GD thread with a Pilgrim pilot whining about losing a ship because of them. How dare someone counter my ship!
serras bang Lucien Coven 41	Posted - 2012.11.03 01:33:00 - [108] - Quote Theo Ramone wrote: Since we're going to reduce the effects of ECM's can we also get some skills to reduce the effects of energy nuet/vamp? Maybe a skill which hardens your capacitor to make x amount protected from modules that neut/vamp the cap levels? Frankly, in the "Oh jesus run" list of ships the ewar ranks pretty low. The energy war ships (I'm looking at you pilgrim and curse) scare the bejesus out of me. I dont see too many solo rooks and falcons. Cant really say the same of pilgrims and curses. ETA: Oh, can you buff the tank on the ewar ships if your nerfing the jam abilities. Seeing s the jam chance is the only tank.....It would be nice to have a little bit of backup to the increased chance of failure thats coming. defens against vamp ? isnt that called a cap battery ?
serras bang Lucien Coven 41	Posted - 2012.11.03 01:36:00 - [109] - Quote im sure there will be more changes to dts when missles get implimented and they fully see the extent that they may or may not having (personaly im hopeing there gonne be op). however one things for fozz to consider and as ive said before i havent ran figures or do ewar myself but i dont see a hugh problem atm (play tests may prove differently) about this unless ecm ship are infront of the dps and tanks or tds become best modual for everything.
Desert Ice78 Cobra Kai Dojo WHY so Seri0Us 170	Posted - 2012.11.03 01:37:00 - [110] - Quote Marlona Sky wrote: Desert Ice78 wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: Just remove ~~ECM~~ Caldari completely. Fixed that for you. Are you implying that without ECM in its current form Caldari has a worthless ship lineup? Are you seriously saying this?? Do you even play the game???? Can anyone say "Heavy missile nerf??" And what exactly will a dedicated Caldari pilot be flying after patch? I am a pod pilot: http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/DesertIce/POD.jpg CCP Zulu: Came expecting a discussion about computer monitors, left confused.
serras bang Lucien Coven 41	Posted - 2012.11.03 01:40:00 - [111] - Quote Desert Ice78 wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: Desert Ice78 wrote: Marlona Sky wrote: Just remove ~~ECM~~ Caldari completely. Fixed that for you. Are you implying that without ECM in its current form Caldari has a worthless ship lineup? Are you seriously saying this?? Do you even play the game???? Can anyone say "Heavy missile nerf??" And what exactly will a dedicated Caldari pilot be flying after patch? furry nerf has been cut bacl to what seems like an acceptable lvl (playtest pending) and btw dps isnt all that bad a lil lower but nothing unbearable
serras bang Lucien Coven 41	Posted - 2012.11.03 01:42:00 - [112] - Quote Lili Lu wrote: M1k3y Koontz wrote: Quote: *Add four new racial sensor compensation skills that increase each type of Sensor Strength by 5% per level (Requires Electronics 4, rank 3 skills in the Electronics category) Do you realize what kind of monster your creating in the falcon? If it wasn't OP before, it will only get worse now, another 25% to the strength, even with the range nerf, will be just insane. People will continue to fly Scorpion fleets and Widows just as much as they do now, but Falcons will just get even more OP. Please, don't add these 5% racial bonus, it will only hurt small gang PVP Either you are wrong or most of the readers of this thread are wrong. I believe most of us read this as applying to everyone in game as a defensive skill against ecm, not an ecm specialist set of skills that buff ecm modules. yep just read again i thought it was a ship bonus why dose things have to be put so hard to read. yeah yeah im dyslexic :P
GeeShizzle MacCloud 229	Posted - 2012.11.03 01:44:00 - [113] - Quote so just to simplify on the numbers... broad 10% nerf on unbonused ecm Griffin and Kitsune face 10% range/strength nerf max skilled blackbird / tengu bonuses up 2.5% max skilled scorp bonuses up 10% buff on LR dampening ships max skilled dampening buff by 12.5% broad 5% nerf on unbonused TD buff on max bonus TD by 2.5% TP bonus up 12.5% on T1 bonused ships and up 25% on t2 I like the fact theres more emphasis on effectiveness of bonused ewar. Theres appears to have been some oversight on EAF's, which would be best to have some love. As for the ECM boats, most ECM ships use their range as their tank. The new eccm compensation skills as is evident in this thread is quite controversial but with more changes to come its promising that balance will be achieved. do like the way they reduce the effectiveness of ec-300's.
Benny Ohu Chaotic Tranquility Casoff 387	Posted - 2012.11.03 01:44:00 - [114] - Quote serras bang wrote: furry nerf nerf furries +1
serras bang Lucien Coven 41	Posted - 2012.11.03 01:51:00 - [115] - Quote Benny Ohu wrote: serras bang wrote: furry nerf nerf furries +1 very funny :P
Michael Harari The Hatchery Team Liquid 338	Posted - 2012.11.03 02:23:00 - [116] - Quote Can fozzie actually confirm if the 5% td nerf is an actual 5% (ie, 5% of .2) or a 5 percentage point (as all his other changes are listed as) nerf?
Red Teufel Blackened Skies Nulli Secunda 102	Posted - 2012.11.03 02:49:00 - [117] - Quote interesting, very interesting.
Iam Widdershins Project Nemesis 754	Posted - 2012.11.03 02:49:00 - [118] - Quote CCP Fozzie: Can we also see the sensor strength skill ranks reduced to 2? This would bring them into parity with armor and shield damage compensations and lessen the load on pilots who already fly three or four races of ships. Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Sassums Wormhole Exploration Crew R.E.P.O. 56	Posted - 2012.11.03 03:05:00 - [119] - Quote So you're definition of an "Update" is instead a nerf to those ECM classed T2 Cruisers? How is that in any way an update? So not only do you nerf the base effectiveness, you slap me in the face by adding more skills to make the ships more effective? The Falcon is already paper thin as it is, and now you are going to drop it's range and get it even closer to the combat? Falcon is long range. Not in the middle of the fight the enemy farts and the ship dies. What a load of garbage.
Viribus Love Squad Confederation of xXPIZZAXx 99	Posted - 2012.11.03 03:08:00 - [120] - Quote Sassums wrote: So you're definition of an "Update" is instead a nerf to those ECM classed T2 Cruisers? How is that in any way an update? So not only do you nerf the base effectiveness, you slap me in the face by adding more skills to make the ships more effective? Please learn to read Quote: The Falcon is already paper thin as it is, and now you are going to drop it's range and get it even closer to the combat? Falcon is long range. Not in the middle of the fight the enemy farts and the ship dies. What a load of garbage. Falcon's paper thin because you can't shoot when you're permajammed. You already fly the most risk-averse ship in the entire game so your complaints kind of fall flat Maybe you can adapt by not flying overpowered, risk-free garbage

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