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Alowishus
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Posted - 2005.04.11 21:39:00 -
[61]
My alt needed training certs. I went to Kisogo to gather 10 of them. There were 2-3 people at the training grounds taking turns for certs, each attempting to kill these things with their pea shooter weapons and skills. I had no time for that. I went in with an AB Condor and began single volley killing each drone and gathering the cert. After about two minutes I was just about done It was exhausting but I got each of the next 8 drones, I am 100% sure I laid the final blow on all the drones. I noticed the noobs in local were frustrated with me not taking turns. I ignored them as I was busy doing my thing.
As I was gathering the 8th cert a 4-day-old dude in a Merlin told me not to touch the can and opened fire. His weapons did nothing to me. Before 25% of my shield was gone so was his ship. Now when I was that new I couldn't even afford a Merlin. He wasted four days of solid work over two minutes of lost time. I know I was being an ass but that's how Eve is, time is money. I wish I could sit around and help every noob but going in, doing my thing and being gone in less than three minutes was the best comprimise I was willing to make.
Raven 4TW! Rank(1) SP: 243745/256000 |
Theonlystd
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Posted - 2005.04.11 23:30:00 -
[62]
True u cant shoot a person who nabs your wallet now a days cause were not a lawless place like you guys love to point out. Now if i drop my wallet a couple hundred years ago in the wildwest and you try to nab it i bet i could defend myself without to much worry of being put in jail. And i think eve is more like the wildwest society than modern day. ------------------------------------------- Aye Spellcheck is beyond me along with propper grammer. |
Marion Quicksilver
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Posted - 2005.04.12 01:04:00 -
[63]
Tenaj, I've been suicide attacked so many times I've lost count. No idea why they think they can get away with it... I always attributed it to teenaged stupidity, to be honest.
The only success was a guy in a Tempest who cruise missle spammed me. Needless to say the modules on his ship bought me a new hoarder and then some, so even that was profitable.
And the ore-thieves-are-evil crowd that hijacked Tenaj's fine thread should be ashamed...
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TheHobGoblin
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Posted - 2005.04.12 02:58:00 -
[64]
Edited by: TheHobGoblin on 12/04/2005 03:05:57 Edited by: TheHobGoblin on 12/04/2005 02:59:00
Originally by: Khrystoff
Originally by: Syrec
Originally by: TheHobGoblin never been caught by an ore thief because if you're mining in .5+ space you're not having any fun. Go to .4 space. Either you're not mining enough, therefor you can be in a BS and be safe and get enough ore, or you're using a barge, and can probably afford to pay someone to guard you. Good luck getting ore from me if you're a thief. If you can take all my Hvy drones, than you can't steal more than a tiny faction of one jet can. If you're in an indy... I'm going to get some mods off you, just like any other rat.
^ This is a miner who knows how to a deal with a problem himself. All you whiny miners should learn from him.
*I second that
BTW if you've been playing for over a month and you're mining in >.5 space and trying to save up enough for a new cruiser, give me an evemail. I might be able to find you a place that's safe from ore thief silliness, and help you out on both accounts)
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.04.12 21:45:00 -
[65]
Originally by: Corvus Dove If you drop your wallet on the pavement, and someone runs up and nabs it, can you pull a gun on them for it?
In RL, no. In Eve, it wouldn't be out of place. The social norm in RL is to let the authorities deal with any wrongdoing. In eve, the social norm is for wrongdoing (or percieved wrongdoing) to be punished using violence against the perpetrator. Of course, if you want us to bring in jail terms for criminals, feel free to suggest it. I'm sure thieves and pirates will love being confined to station for months at a time
Originally by: Khrystoff I suggest you keep your wallet in your pocket. and do whatever you can (within the bounds of the law) to make sure it stays there.
That is a sensible measure, but whether you do it or not does not change whether taking it is a crime. Take the example of someone stealing my car. It is just as much a crime if they steal it off the side of the road with me having forgotten to lock it, as it is if they stole it when I'd put it, locked, in a locked garage, clamped all 4 wheels, put a steering lock on it and removed the battery. The ability to do something does not grant the right to do it.
Originally by: Khrystoff I've also been known to put a jet can in a deepspace bookmark a couple hundred thousand km away form the belt, it's a half second warp jump to drop ore into it, and a half second warp back to the belt. It's also totally secure.
Ore thief with 3AU probes could find and loot that can in very short order, especially with the new quicker scan times.
Originally by: Syrec Well #1, jet cans weren't meant to be used for mining. It's the miner's choice to jet their ore into space for anyone to take. There isn't much of a reason for a battleship or barge miner to be there anyways.. go to .6 or .5 and use your drones to kill the npc rats. You can anchor containers there.
jet can mining has become a de-facto part of eve. The dev's have acknowledged this through their plan for flagging ore thieves.
And with current market prices, there is every reason to be in high-sec space to mine. With current prices, scordite is on a par with Hemorphite and Hedbergite for profit per m3, so there's simply no reason for a miner to go outside high-sec unless they can get to Gneiss or better, which means reletively deep 0.0.
Originally by: Syrec As you said, in 0.0 anything goes.. so there is already a solution. You don't like tenaj jacking your ore that you let float around freely in space, then move to 0.0
Yes, and you make it sound so much more appealing than being occasionally thieved by Tenaj:
Originally by: Syrec Because in 0.0, you don't just steal the ore.. you blow the !_@)#&@ out of the miner and loot his stuff.
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RipSnort
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Posted - 2005.04.12 22:20:00 -
[66]
You can't probe-scan for cans, only for ships.
This thread, however, has been officially wtfpwn'd by Matthew.
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MutationZ
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Posted - 2005.04.12 22:59:00 -
[67]
Originally by: RipSnort You can't probe-scan for cans, only for ships.
This thread, however, has been officially wtfpwn'd by Matthew.
Agreed *bows to the master*
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DARTHxFREE
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Posted - 2005.04.12 23:17:00 -
[68]
cool i actually read ever one of these post's,
some one once stole the dregs from a can i couldnt be bothered hauling, didnt mined but some of these posts are just sick and now i feel sick, if things like that happend to me i would get revenge on concord blow up every one in low sec space till i ran out of ISK then bin eve and move to WoW or some other rpg
stealling is cheekie and sounds fun but causing some one to lose days of playing over a practicle joke that barly increases ure own poket (exluding taking thier remains)
thiers some thing, aggroing miners to making mistakes, a new lame way of pirating >:-E3 !!!rrraY I'm an anti pirate,...life's the wrong way round. |
Artalan
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Posted - 2005.04.13 00:03:00 -
[69]
i think the whole arguement about ore theives vs. miners boils down to this. the options for a miner to mine efficiently are :
mining until full and iBM's(6 minuites to fill a heavy barge means this is kinda pointless)
mining into huge secure cans(again, 6 minuites to fill a huge secure can and you'd need approx 10-20 dotted all over a roid field to save constant trips with your indy - not feasable when they have to be at least 5km apart)
2 accounts - either 1 person running 2 or 2 people running 2. one mining, one hauling using jetcans to transfer the ore. this leaves a window of opportunity for ore thieves to nab whatever is in the jetcan if the miner continues to mine while the hauler docks to unload. this is the method i currently use and have had trouble with it once(idiot agro'd me for best part of an hour ramming me and forcing me to wait for him to leave before i continued to mine). ore thieves can steal upwards of 7-8k/m3 ore this way if they time their arrival right.
mining into a jetcan, returning with an indy. for those with no friends or extra accounts this is the fastest way for a n00b to start their mining carrier until they can afford a better ship. i started mining this way, lost ore a couple of times.
afk mining - park an indy in a roid field next to a huge veldspar roid with a miner II and leave it mining while u sleep. not really a very good way of mining but people do it.
just looking at the list there really is no option but to mine into a jetcan unless you think 6 minuite mining stints are fun. I dont have a problem allowing people to play the role of ore thieves, i even dont mind them robbing me blind if i'm not paying attention. however a game mechanic needs to be put in place one of the following 2 solutions :
megastupidhuge secure containers - big enough to fill an IT5 with named expanders preferably
or have the option to kick their sorry asses all over the roid field when they try and take the ore i've spent the last 20 minuites mining without concordoken on my ass about it.
the first option effectively puts ore thieves out of business and there's plenty of them so CCP will probably ignore it. explains why there are huge containers and then station containers and nothing in between.
the second option retains the ability for ore theives to function but gives miners a way to defend what they have worked for without the ore theives having concord protecting them. it would force miners to bring something to fight with. it would also make ore thieves think about their usual expanders/nanos setups and pack defence/attack equipment. it would also beg the question, does the ore theive get to come back in a raven once they've been attacked and pound the ore theive for destroying their ship. thats probably the biggest problem right there as it circumvents the security status of a system just by stealing ore and then waiting for the miner to retaliate.
sorry for hijacking the thread a bit :P. hopefully i'll get some informed well thought out responses to my rant ;)
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Kira Natel
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Posted - 2005.04.13 02:22:00 -
[70]
Originally by: Tenaj I guess that predictably this has been pulled a little off topic. I wasn't trying to brag, I'm genuinely curious as to what motivates a miner to open fire in this way, assuming they're not just plain dumb.
I wasn't intending to do the whole ''Why can't we shoot thieves'' thing again here. This is my main char and I'm in a player corp, If you want to shoot me you know what to do. As for the argument that I must be a bad person in real life, I'm not going to engage in a battle of wits with the unarmed. Does anyone have a view on my original question?
If you really want to know- Then go spend a month being a miner in high profile systems and let your ore get stolen.
As far as answers take your choice:
1. People forget what sec system their in- I had a pirate fire on me in .5 - he said later he thought he was in .4
2. People resent the loss of their ore
3. People resent even more the loss of valuable game time spent collecting said stolen ore
4. even tho ore thieving is allowed and devs condone it- most miners don't and consider ore thieves griefers
There are probably more but these come to mind quickly.
PS if you go mining and get your ore stolen and still can't figure it out, then its your wit that is unarmed
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MutationZ
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Posted - 2005.04.13 02:23:00 -
[71]
Heres an informed one, takes a large barge 27 minutes to fill a jetcan
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Cam Conquer
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Posted - 2005.04.13 08:04:00 -
[72]
Edited by: Cam Conquer on 13/04/2005 08:05:05 Tenaj, I've been suicide attacked so many times I've lost count. No idea why they think they can get away with it... I always attributed it to teenaged stupidity, to be honest.
lol, I think your the stupid teenager around here if not then u really have a very sad rl that u have to go round ****ing people off for your own enjoyment.
Also as CCP claim logging off in battle isnt an exploit then all u need to do is use torps and log job done. If ore thieves are gonna use game mechanics why shouldnt everyone else
And btw why not steal ore with your main marion not your alt.
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Skogen Gump
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Posted - 2005.04.13 08:09:00 -
[73]
Originally by: MutationZ Heres an informed one, takes a large barge 27 minutes to fill a jetcan
If you're referring to Artalan, he said it takes 6 minutes to fill a large barge HOLD and 6 minutes to fill a HUGE Secure can, not a Jetcan :Ì
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Artalan
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Posted - 2005.04.13 08:27:00 -
[74]
Originally by: MutationZ Heres an informed one, takes a large barge 27 minutes to fill a jetcan
yeah, maybe a lil less with MSMII's(18 minuites last time i looked). which makes it completely pointless even considering the usage of secure containers as you'd fill 5 in less than 20 minuites. which if like me you mine in a 3-4 hour stint can mean [a] 45-60 secure cans set up in space and [b] 1 very very dead roid field
/me waves to skogen gump
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.04.13 09:07:00 -
[75]
Originally by: Artalan it would also beg the question, does the ore theive get to come back in a raven once they've been attacked and pound the ore theive for destroying their ship. thats probably the biggest problem right there as it circumvents the security status of a system just by stealing ore and then waiting for the miner to retaliate.
This is the one issue I've not fully resolved in my mind yet. If it is allowed, there is a simple way round it - if you shoot at the thief and they warp out, then so do you, direct back to your station using your mining instajump. 40 seconds later, you're back in the belt in your ganka-whatever just waiting for the foolish thief to come back
But there is the more general issue, which isn't really all that clear - how long does the "defending yourself" flag last, and how long should it last. Personally, I don't see anything wrong with clearing the defence flag upon dock, stargate jump, or ejection (to switch ships at a safespot). If the thief does any of those things, they are obviously not needing to defend themselves at that immediate time (especially if they're willing to expose their pod!). The thief would still be able to defend themselves if the miner subsequently re-engaged them, but the thief wouldn't be able to switch ships and use the defence flag for an attacking action.
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AvanCade
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Posted - 2005.04.13 09:11:00 -
[76]
Edited by: AvanCade on 13/04/2005 09:11:21 If someone would steal my ore, bet your ass on it he is gonna die, along with his pod. Any method allowed.
Its more a matter of PRIDE.
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Aralin
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Posted - 2005.04.13 09:12:00 -
[77]
Quote: i think the whole arguement about ore theives vs. miners boils down to this. the options for a miner to mine efficiently are :
He listed lots of options and it was an obviously well thought out post but you missed an important option and a fact of life in the game(s) we play...
MMORPG... Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game.
MMOs are intended to be social, the fact that you CAN solo in any MMO usually does not mean you can, or should be able to, work nearly as safely or efficiently as you can as part of a group. Meet people, make friends, work together at helping each other advance and you will have far fewer problems in any MMO.
The ideal solution ? Make a friend who can drive a hauler. You mine, they keep your cans empty (or vice versa) and you limit the opportunities for someone to steal the product of your work. Split the profits at the end of the day and everyone is happy, except of course, the ore thieves.
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Dasher Prime
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Posted - 2005.04.13 10:52:00 -
[78]
Originally by: Maik002 Mining is becoming a **** with so much ore thieving. Tritanium is going up of the 3 isk per unit. Just keep doing this thing and your precious Iteron-dumb-ass-ore-transporter III may cost to you (and us) like a BS. Of course it doesnŠt matter with you as you have all the free veldspar you want. But this affects all of us flying any ship.
Wow first it was the level four agents, now its going to be "Ore Thieves" that are destroying the economy
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Gunner Stahl
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Posted - 2005.04.13 12:39:00 -
[79]
Edited by: Gunner Stahl on 13/04/2005 12:40:11
Originally by: Aralin
MMOs are intended to be social, the fact that you CAN solo in any MMO usually does not mean you can, or should be able to, work nearly as safely or efficiently as you can as part of a group. Meet people, make friends, work together at helping each other advance and you will have far fewer problems in any MMO.
Problem is we could be in a group of 10 people mining theres still nothing you can do to an ore thief. So solo or mining party, you're still vulnerable. There is the problem. Most issues in EVE are solved by teamwork and numbers. The only endorsed solution is secure cans, and 50-60 cans per belt is a bit much for a saturday afternoon of mining. _________________________________________ Ask not what your country can do for you. Don't ask what you can do for your country, either. Start asking what your country is doing TO you. |
Corvus Dove
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Posted - 2005.04.13 18:45:00 -
[80]
I think what we're slipping away from here is the actual point. Noone here is denying that ore theivery is a crime. That's why it's called "ore theivery ".
"Mining cans" already exist. They're called secure canisters, and if you have a decent hauler you can deploy 2 or 3 huge canisters and not even need the ungodly m3 of the jet can. Yes, you can't anchor them in 0.9 and 1.0, but that's not entirely because of a lag issue, etc. It's because you need to move your arses out of 1.0 and 0.9 and populate the rest of EVE . To that end, I'd say they should make it so you can't anchor in any system above 0.6 or 0.4 and let the sudden swell of ore theives force the actual EXODUS that was supposed to happen in the last expansion.
What? You might encounter PvP in a PvP universe? ONOES!
Finally, saying it's an exploit does not make it an exploit. Saying something is an exploit when it clearly isn't has the same effect as a redneck trying to articulate complex english without a thesaurus when he's ****ed. CCP already said this isn't an exploit and released secure cans, so quit crying wolf.
"You Griefer!!!" = "You Doodyhead!!!" |
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Artalan
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Posted - 2005.04.13 23:06:00 -
[81]
glad we havent had any idiots reply(yet)
In response to the comment about me missing group mining, i touched on it with the 2 accounts option(i specifically said 1 person 2 accounts or 2 people 2 accounts, logically you can extend this to group mining efforts but the same problems are involved(you can still lose a bit of ore to the theives).
The second comment i thought was worth replying to was the "use secure canisters" response. I believe i made it clear that a person in 0.6 in a heavy barge(covetor) with 3 MSM II's can fill one in approximately 4 minuites. it makes using them cumbersome as you have to flit between the cans(their not being allowed to be clustered)filling them every 4 minuites rather than park your ass on a spot and clear a 30km wide chunk of asteroid field into jetcans. i know that sounds lazy but this is suposed to be a game and spending an hour setting up enough huge secure canisters for a mining op is not fun(your talking multiple trips in an indy and even in my IT5 loaded with named expanders its still slow work)
i think the ore stealers fail to grasp the current mining technology of filling a jetcan in 20 minuites as they got bored back when they first tried it in their probe or equivelent due to how slow it was to earn isk. The game has an inbalance in it in the mining area and i hope they correct the inbalance without breaking anything else(like secure cans, loot can rights etc.).
I'd like to personally see an ore stealer take a covetor down below 0.4 and see how long they last but thats just me wondering how they would fare compared to the real miners on eve ;)
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Messerschmitt facility
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Posted - 2005.04.13 23:42:00 -
[82]
Im comming again and say: Use secure cans CCP didn't intentioned the jetisson can be used as a mining part. But some bright player opened up the way. CCP made the jettison can so big only so when a player jettison somthing from his cargo, to be big enought the hole crap fit in. Thats all, thats why jettison cans also disapear in 1-2 hours. When I was a young padawan of EVE (wtf?) I didn't even knew about jettisoned can's can be used for mining, and thus I used secure containers. And gues what... my mining ops were running quite smoothly. So stop whining. You wana defend your container and rip the thief apart? Move ur as* down to 0.4 and bellow and leave from the concord (4tl) supremacy. And so you can hapely defend your ore . Well of course, then you also would need to defend against pirates, but that's another problem Actualy I think thiefes are the 0.5-1.0 pirates replacements witch is absolutely briliant
_________________________________
A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking...
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MutationZ
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Posted - 2005.04.14 01:09:00 -
[83]
Heres another take on this -
Lets face it, mining sucks. It needs help. Go away with your secure giant containers. You are making something more difficult than it already is. Ore thieves and their griefing (yes griefing) just make a bad situation worse.
A raven takes about 8million trit to build. At 1000m3 a minute from a large barge thats approx 30,000 trit per min. Thats 4 1/2 hours for a battleship. Then u have pyerite,mex,iso,nocx,zyd and mega to go
With those quantities in mind you expect people to dump into a pitifully small container. This is meant to be a game, I dont work so that I can come home to "work" on a virtual game.
Make mining less of a chore and a bs (not battleship) timesink with a little more protection from tosse rs and little e-peens.
Otherwise I hope you next battleship costs you 250mill (by the way, I'm not against ore "theft" but I would love to see the game mechanics support people who build rather than people who blow stuff up all the time)
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Ikvar
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Posted - 2005.04.14 01:30:00 -
[84]
And what, pray tell, is wrong with greifing? _________________
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MutationZ
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Posted - 2005.04.14 02:04:00 -
[85]
A grief player, or "griefer," is a player who devotes much of his time to making others' lives miserable, in a large part deriving his enjoyment of the game from these activities. Grief tactics are the mechanics a griefer will utilize to antagonize or fight other players.
This should not be confused with standard conflict that might arise between two players. At our discretion, players who are found to be consistently maliciously interfering with the game experience for others may receive a warning, temporary suspension or permanent banning of his account.
I assume you are referring to "griefing" and not greifing
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Artalan
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Posted - 2005.04.14 07:45:00 -
[86]
bleh. i give up trying to explain. if i really wanted to mine crappy little amounts into a secure canister i'd stick expanders on my already slow barge and punch it up to 6k/m3 and run instabm's. it takes too long to fly from the asteroid belt to the station and back again tho and you'd be filling the barge in 4-5 minuites. thats a LOT of travelling when some barge users mine in excess of 300k/m3 in a session(50 trips)
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Matthew
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Posted - 2005.04.14 08:41:00 -
[87]
Originally by: Corvus Dove It's because you need to move your arses out of 1.0 and 0.9 and populate the rest of EVE . To that end, I'd say they should make it so you can't anchor in any system above 0.6 or 0.4 and let the sudden swell of ore theives force the actual EXODUS that was supposed to happen in the last expansion.
Forcing people out to low-sec using brute force methods like this is not the way to get the exodus to low-sec. It is a way of getting an exodus out of the game.
The only way you'll get people to move out to low-sec is to provide incentives to do so. Right now, as far as mining is concerned, there is absolutely no incentive to be in 0.1-0.4. Current mineral prices mean that the difference in profit between mining scordite and hedbergite/hemorphite is negligable, even before you take into account the extra risks involved. In fact, you have to find Gneiss or better before it's worth transferring from mining scordite in high-sec space. So either you're a high-sec scordite sucker, or you're an alliance miner in deep 0.0. There's currently no incentive to be anything in-between.
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Diicc Tater
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Posted - 2005.04.14 09:50:00 -
[88]
returning to the original question:
"One born every minute"
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Paul Atradiese
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Posted - 2005.04.14 10:38:00 -
[89]
I mine in a 0.6 system and have only seen 1 ore thief in the last 2 months and he was more worried about getting to my can before my hauler that he ignored 5 blood raiders that just spawned behind him needless to say this was a mistake as i watched his Itron 1 pop (but the 24% expander was nice). Yet the system next to this one is a 0.9 and often has orethieves in it so it seems that these people dont like venturing out of 0.9 as there might be things out there that shot them and concord wont protect them
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Tenaj
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Posted - 2005.04.14 12:06:00 -
[90]
Originally by: Paul Atradiese I mine in a 0.6 system and have only seen 1 ore thief in the last 2 months and he was more worried about getting to my can before my hauler that he ignored 5 blood raiders that just spawned behind him needless to say this was a mistake as i watched his Itron 1 pop (but the 24% expander was nice). Yet the system next to this one is a 0.9 and often has orethieves in it so it seems that these people dont like venturing out of 0.9 as there might be things out there that shot them and concord wont protect them
Good point. It's true that NPC rats are a distraction to me below 0.9. Also Concord response times are slower the lower sec level you go, giving people more chance to get away with a suicide ganking. Another factor though is that I have less respect for people strip mining veld in 1.0 and 0.9 than those who are least having to put a modicum of effort into defense in 0.8 to 0.5.
Channel TOOKURSTUFF, serving the Criminal community.
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