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Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2011.10.03 06:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
So, i've been comparing the Sansha ships to other pirate faction BS's, in particular Angel Cartel and Serpentis. The Sansha ships seem inferior.
Consider the nightmare vs the mach:
Very similar damage to the mach No damage type selection for the nightmare (bad for PvE) The mach has much better range/damage projection Very similar tank (base shield Hp both in the 9,000's, mach has a higher passive regen and smaller sig radius) The nightmare is much slower and has a much larger sig radius The nightmare has a 25% smaller drone bacy The Nightmare has only marginally better tracking when the higher base tracking of autocannons is considered. The nightmare's cap can barely take firing the guns
The Phantasm and Succubus stack up along similar lines - they just aren't that good compared to other pirate faction ships.
The nightmare is no good for PvP given its poor cap, speed, and cost Its not much good for PvE given its lack of damage selection
The only thing it seems good for is running incursions, where it is merely the equal of a mach.
I'm thinking Sansha ships need an improved capacitor, or higher speed and lower sig, or expanded drone bay, or extra mid/low slot (Give the nightmare the mid+ low slot layout of a rattler?.
Because at the moment... I don't really see a point to flying the Nightmare anymore. The mach can do everything the nightmare can do, and so much more. |
Allzat
Nitrogen Narcosis.
1
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Posted - 2011.10.03 06:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
Do you even fly a Nightmare? Seems as you have no clue what you are talking about. I eat everything in my path when I fly Sansha ships no matter what faction I am up against. Leave them as they are thank you.
-Allzat- |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
296
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Posted - 2011.10.03 07:19:00 -
[3] - Quote
The Nightmare is only one of the best PvE ships in the game (and if you can afford it, it's no slouch in PvP either)GǪ
GǪbut yes, the other Sansha ships could use something GÇö both the spikey lollipop and the little grub are lagging somwhat behind the other frigates and cruisers. GÇöGÇöGÇö GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥ GÇö Karath Piki-á |
Master Ventris
Rogue Pioneers
0
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Posted - 2011.10.03 07:31:00 -
[4] - Quote
Is this just looking at eft? I think there is a huge difference in doing 1000+ dps all the way to 45km than only doing it up to 4km. Falloff isnt free optimal. |
Theodoric Darkwind
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
20
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Posted - 2011.10.03 07:41:00 -
[5] - Quote
Master Ventris wrote:Is this just looking at eft? I think there is a huge difference in doing 1000+ dps all the way to 45km than only doing it up to 4km. Falloff isnt free optimal.
the tradeoff is the mach is easier to fly, cheaper to fit and has a better tank.
The tachyon NM melts face, but holy cap micromanagement, not to mention actually NEEDING T2 rigs just to function and a cap injector just to run the guns. |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
57
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Posted - 2011.10.03 07:53:00 -
[6] - Quote
It'd probably be more accurate to say it needs T2 rigs to run the guns, and a cap injector to run its tank, but sure. |
Brutorr
Royal Black Watch Highlanders Warped Aggression
0
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Posted - 2011.10.03 09:05:00 -
[7] - Quote
As above, Nightmare is awesome and prob my favourite ship ingame.
The other two, however, are lacking somewhat. The Phantasm shouldn't have been nerfed when they boosted the other faction cruisers, and the Succubus has always lacked a bit. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
2
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Posted - 2011.10.03 09:15:00 -
[8] - Quote
Yeap, Nightmare clearly lacks speed and agility to be a really competative PvP ship. Well, you can hug gates, but why would you need your megapulses then? Use blasters instead.
Won't comment on the rest, though. CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?" |
Lugalzagezi666
6
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Posted - 2011.10.03 09:26:00 -
[9] - Quote
Succubus and phantasm need buff for sure.
Nightmare, hm... Yes, its one of the best pve ships in game, but so is machariel and its awesome pvp ship too. So mach got its speed and ac/arty ownage, vindi got its dps and 90% webs, bhaal got long range webs and uberneuts.
Ask yourself about nighmare. |
Koniss
Advanced Technology
0
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Posted - 2011.10.03 09:32:00 -
[10] - Quote
nightmare is fine for both PVE and PVP, sure you cant roam in it like a mach but its a nice ship phantasm need its old shield HP back (i still dont understand why CCP nerfed it while they boosted all other faction cruisers) and another low wouldnt hurt either. succubus isnt totally bad but some love to the ship would be appreciated a bit more fitting maybe
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Dors Venabily
Percone Outcasts
0
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Posted - 2011.10.03 10:01:00 -
[11] - Quote
Theodoric Darkwind wrote:Master Ventris wrote:Is this just looking at eft? I think there is a huge difference in doing 1000+ dps all the way to 45km than only doing it up to 4km. Falloff isnt free optimal. the tradeoff is the mach is easier to fly, cheaper to fit and has a better tank. The tachyon NM melts face, but holy cap micromanagement, not to mention actually NEEDING T2 rigs just to function and a cap injector just to run the guns.
I do not get where you have that from the Fit I am using is 40 minutes with everything on but the booster. When boosting you need to inject.
there is one t2 rig on that.
and yeah Fall off is not optimal.
With the other 2 ships it could revert the shield changes. |
Mr Floydy
The Xenodus Initiative.
0
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Posted - 2011.10.03 12:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Nightmare is fine. Not that I'd complain if it got boosted xD
Phantasm is in dire need of some sort of boost. It just isn't good at anything at the moment. It has less slots than all the other pirate faction cruisers (iirc, certainly has less than the Cynabal) aswell as being very slow.
Would be nice to actually have a use for it as it's such a nice looking ship! |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2011.10.03 14:37:00 -
[13] - Quote
Allzat wrote:Do you even fly a Nightmare? Seems as you have no clue what you are talking about. I eat everything in my path when I fly Sansha ships no matter what faction I am up against. Leave them as they are thank you.
-Allzat-
Yes, I have no problem completing lvl4 missions in it... But I also have no problems completing lvl4 missions in an Apocalypse or Armageddon. Sure, the Nightmare does them faster.
It seems to me that for what it is, a billion ISK pirate faction BS, that its capabilities are underwhelming when I look at what the other pirate faction BS's can do. |
Allzat
Nitrogen Narcosis.
3
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Posted - 2011.10.04 05:19:00 -
[14] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:Allzat wrote:Do you even fly a Nightmare? Seems as you have no clue what you are talking about. I eat everything in my path when I fly Sansha ships no matter what faction I am up against. Leave them as they are thank you.
-Allzat- Yes, I have no problem completing lvl4 missions in it... But I also have no problems completing lvl4 missions in an Apocalypse or Armageddon. Sure, the Nightmare does them faster. It seems to me that for what it is, a billion ISK pirate faction BS, that its capabilities are underwhelming when I look at what the other pirate faction BS's can do.
Then you are doing something terribly wrong or you don't have the skills to fly it at lvl 5 yet.
-Allzat- |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
57
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Posted - 2011.10.04 05:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
When I'm looking at pirate batteships to boost, the Nightmare isn't exactly the one that comes to mind...
Rattlesnake, anyone? Seriously, why does anyone fly that crap? |
Zoe Alarhun
Drunken Space Irish
13
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Posted - 2011.10.04 06:15:00 -
[16] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:When I'm looking at pirate batteships to boost, the Nightmare isn't exactly the one that comes to mind...
Rattlesnake, anyone? Seriously, why does anyone fly that crap?
Because it's got a rediculously awesome passive tank and you can do 5's in it. It looks cool. It's missiles + drones + shields. It's got a rediculously awesome passive tank (this bears repeating)
Damage isn't great. |
Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
57
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Posted - 2011.10.04 06:20:00 -
[17] - Quote
- You can do level 5's with an alt in a logistics ship too -- and it'll be both faster and cheaper.
- I think the Rattlesnake is among the ugliest of the pirate ships available.
- So is the CNR -- just a different ratio.
- Passive tanking is overrated. In anything resembling an efficient gank platform, you'll get a stronger tank with active modules.
And yes, the damage output is miserable. |
Zoe Alarhun
Drunken Space Irish
13
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Posted - 2011.10.04 10:38:00 -
[18] - Quote
Yes you can do all those things mentioned but bear in mind you need alts, can't run sustained tank (cap boosters), and the other points are opinion. The CNR is a better mission runner for 4's etc - but sometimes you need that slow bulldoze rediculous over the top passive regen tank and the rattler shines there.
Running 4's CNR is better by far. |
Lugalzagezi666
7
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Posted - 2011.10.04 11:10:00 -
[19] - Quote
Guristas ships need a buff too. Especially worm, that is basically worse than ishkur. Easiest way would be to drop useless missile range bonus and give all guristas ships damage/rof bonus. Worm could also use drone damage/hp bonus or just better pg/cpu.
But that doesnt change anything about fact, that phantasm is pure joke, succubus is subpar to most afs and pirate frigs and nightmare really doesnt offer much for pvp compared to mach, bhaal or vindi. |
Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
74
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Posted - 2011.10.04 11:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
people here complaining the the Nightmare doesnt have a 'stand out attribute' that differs it from a normal Battleship, what would you change or add to the ship to make it 'better'? |
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Aamrr
HnL Enterprise
57
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Posted - 2011.10.04 12:07:00 -
[21] - Quote
If you're looking to buff the Nightmare in PvP (which might not be completely insane), I think a neut/nos range bonus would be both appropriate and flavorful.
Whether it's justified or not is an open question, though. |
Lugalzagezi666
7
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Posted - 2011.10.04 13:18:00 -
[22] - Quote
I say, lets keep sansha ships bricks, but proper laser shield bricks with adequate dps/ehp. I personally would unify caldari skill bonus with "special ability" bonus for all sansha ships - to new special ability bonus with increased damage - and give them +5% shield resist bonus from caldari skill.
Id take 1 utility high from succubus and give it 1 more low. Special ability would provide slightly MORE dps than it has now - around + 0,5-1 effective turret.
Id give phantasm 1 more low slot, bigger cargo, full flight of lights, adequate pg boost and pre-dominion ehp /not counting that resist bonus/. Special ability bonus would provide MORE dps - somewhere around +2 effective guns.
Wouldnt change much about nm except shield resist bonus, maybe slightly bigger cargohold and 1 more utility high with adequate pg boost. Special ability bonus would provide SAME dps as now. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
2
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Posted - 2011.10.04 13:54:00 -
[23] - Quote
Skippermonkey wrote:people here complaining the the Nightmare doesnt have a 'stand out attribute' that differs it from a normal Battleship, what would you change or add to the ship to make it 'better'? Boost speed and agility by, say, 15-20%. Atm it is clumsy as a bear. I'm a firm believer that any faction/pirate battleship should be better in terms of speed/agility compared to its regular counterpart. Vindicator comes to mind in this regard - it gets awesome agility for no apparent reason. CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?" |
Linda Shadowborn
Dark Steel Industries
16
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Posted - 2011.10.04 14:05:00 -
[24] - Quote
*cuddles her nightmare close to her chest*
lurves my mare.. she is so cute ^^
Nightmare is a funny ship, if you get into it with low to .. okish skills, you will go "huh this isnt all that good" then you sell it.. train up your skills and decide to try again and then you have to go change panties as it is just so friggin awesome.
phantasm... succy... yeah.. eh.. they could probably do with a bit of a boost, pretty hard to fit properly and not all that exciting compared to the other pirate ships. |
SMT008
Les chevaliers de l'ordre Goonswarm Federation
1
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Posted - 2011.10.04 14:20:00 -
[25] - Quote
Nightmare uses 4 guns instead of 8, means you have 3 utility slots, instead of 1 on the Machariel. For PVE, it's also a pro, less ammo consumption. Try using faction ammo on a PVE Mach, you'll sink your bank account in a few missions.
You also have 7 medslots. Which means, it owns when it comes to shield tanking, even though the Machariel have more base shield HP. Tell me what kind of PVP ship have 7 medslots. The Rattlesnake, ok. The Scorpion ? Yep, he have 8, but it's not really a combat ship like the Nightmare. The Widow ? Who cares about this one except for his look. Anything else ? Rokh, Maelstrom, Raven, they all have 6 medslots. In my humble opinion, the Nightmare is one of the best active shieldtanker PVP ship around, along with the Maelstrom. But, it can actually fit stuff in utility slots, the Maelstrom can't.
5 lowslots, so it's still decent for Heatsinks, DC and TEs.
Droneday isn't ++bergreat, but hey, 75m3 is a set of meddrones, and a set of lights, which is usually what you have on a Machariel anyway (except that you have an additionnal meddrones stack, in case you loose the first one).
But I agree, it's slow as ****. |
Lugalzagezi666
7
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Posted - 2011.10.04 15:03:00 -
[26] - Quote
- nightmare does not have 3 utility slots - using faction ammo with mach in l4s actually increases your isk/h, proved many times already on forums - nightmare in fact cant tank better than maelstrom or rokh, because of their boost/resist bonus - it tanks worse than rattler and navy scorp - not even counting in nightmares cap warfare vulnerability - btw without crystals it actually doesnt tank much better than hyperion or dominix - both of them can fit holy trinity and 2 cap boosters
- it can fit stuff into its 2 utility slots - but if it doesnt fit large noses, it caps out just by shooting and running hardeners - if you want to run heavy neut, gl with cap, if you want to fit mwd... - i personally cant imagine how one could fly pvp nightmare without 2x t2 safeguards and at least low tier officer cap booster
Being superfast and able to control range is even bigger advantage. Number of flown machs and nightmares speak by themselves.
Seriously, nightmare is really unimpressive for pvp. Its one of the best pve ships vs em/th weak npcs, thats true... but what can nightmare do to sanshas/bloods, mach can do almost as well. And as bonus it can kill angels/guristas much faster.
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Kale Eledar
Mining and Industrial Services The Irukandji
0
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Posted - 2011.10.04 16:22:00 -
[27] - Quote
The Vindicator probably gets a bonus to agility because getting into blaster range quickly is basically the only way it'll be able to do the ludicrous close range damage it used to be famous for. It's still not as good as it used to be. As for Sansha ships, keep the 100% bonus to laser damage in mind: you see those bonuses on Marauders, and this is a much smaller ship. The Nightmare seems to bulldoze through level 4s, but it suffers cap problems. I'd be interested to see the Nightmare as a PvP capable ship, but I feel the same - SHOULD it be is another question. |
Alexandria Aesirial
Masons of New Eden The Laughing Men
0
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Posted - 2011.10.04 17:10:00 -
[28] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:- nightmare does not have 3 utility slots - using faction ammo with mach in l4s actually increases your isk/h, proved many times already on forums - nightmare in fact cant tank better than maelstrom or rokh, because of their boost/resist bonus - it tanks worse than rattler and navy scorp - not even counting in nightmares cap warfare vulnerability - btw without crystals it actually doesnt tank much better than hyperion or dominix - both of them can fit holy trinity and 2 cap boosters - it can fit stuff into its 2 utility slots - but if it doesnt fit large noses, it caps out just by shooting and running hardeners - if you want to run heavy neut, gl with cap, if you want to fit mwd... - i personally cant imagine how one could fly pvp nightmare without 2x t2 safeguards and at least low tier officer cap booster Being superfast and able to control range is even bigger advantage. Number of flown machs and nightmares speak by themselves. Seriously, nightmare is really unimpressive for pvp. Its one of the best pve ships vs em/th weak npcs, thats true... but what can nightmare do to sanshas/bloods, mach can do almost as well. And as bonus it can kill angels/guristas much faster. Active nightmare is badass and doesn't have cpu problems like the maelstrom does.
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Andrea Griffin
21
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Posted - 2011.10.04 17:17:00 -
[29] - Quote
Succubus is a sad, sad little ship. It really needs help. Built-in shield resists, or a much larger capacitor, a 5th mid, a 3rd low, neut/nos range bonus, something. It needs something. It just doesn't have the tank, gank, speed, or ewar capability to make it a good PvP frigate. It's so AWESOME looking, it's a true shame that it performs like utter poo. It's not you guys who need to repair what has been broken, it's us. CCP Wrangler |
Lugalzagezi666
7
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Posted - 2011.10.04 18:27:00 -
[30] - Quote
Alexandria Aesirial wrote:Active nightmare is badass and doesn't have cpu problems like the maelstrom does.
Active nightmare has slightly worse tank, slightly better damage and worse capacitor even with 2 large noses running. For 800 mil isk more. Badass ship. |
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