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DHB WildCat
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2011.10.04 20:28:00 -
[31] - Quote
I may know a thing or two about pirate ships.
The best pirate battleship for pvp is the nightmare. No question here. The best hands down!
Rattlesnake would be the king of pve.
Sansha Ships are awesome. Use their bonuses intelligently. The normal cookie cutter setups do not work with them, but the right setup means that ANY sansha ship will own any other ship in the game! Sansha needs no buff compared to the other ships. But by all means buff them for me. Then I can bust 50 man gate camps instead of only busting 30 man gate camps.
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DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
66
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Posted - 2011.10.04 23:10:00 -
[32] - Quote
Are Sansha underpowered...or Angel overpowered? I'd say the latter. |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
2
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Posted - 2011.10.05 06:41:00 -
[33] - Quote
At least we agree on the Succubus and the Phantasm.
Angel ships OPd? perhaps Nightmare bonuses equal 10 unbonused large laser turrets Mach bonuses equal 11.67 large unbonused projectile turrets.
Falloff doesn't change with ammo, the mach has about the same optimal+1 falloff range as a pulse laser has optimal with radio crystals. The difference is the mach uses high damage ammo (EMP/Phased plasma/ Fusion), whereas the NM uses a crystal that starts doing about 40% of the high damage crystal - so what the Mach loses to fall off, the NM gas already lost from the start.
Oh, and at lvl 5, the NM only has 7% better tracking. And of course, its cap cant handle firing the guns, its slower, less agile, larger sig radius, smaller drone bay.
The nightmare isn't a bad ship, it just fails to wow me. I don't think going to lvl 5 skills from lvl 4 will change that. It will still have the same DPS as an Abaddon.
Lets look at its tracking bonus... do you really need it farther than 30km out? Look at the Bhaal - same double large laser bonus, and it webs 28-30 km out (because you should be using a faction web on a ship that expensive - so assume true sansha or fed navy web) It slows its target to .4 or .45 its former speed, so the target transversal is slowed likewise. After the target is slowed, the effect is the same as if the ship had a +120% to 150% tracking bonus - and it makes it easier for the rest of the fleet to hit (if there is a fleet) as well. The Bhaals' web bonus is clearly better than the NM's tracking bonus.
Personally, I'm in favor of giving the NM an 8th mid - this can be used to improve its somewhat lackluster (its supposed to be shiny- ie losts of luster : ) tank. Or the mid could be a cap recharger, to improve its lackluster capacitor, or an afterburner to help with the lack of speed.
Of course I wouldn't complain if its base speed or shields or cap recharge was increased. It would also help if it could field at least 5 heavy drones, or if its sig radius was decreased, or its agility increased.
It just needs... something, because I don't see a role it performs that some other faction BS doesn't perform better. |
Lugalzagezi666
7
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Posted - 2011.10.05 08:12:00 -
[34] - Quote
Its your opinion.
My opinion : The best pirate battleship for pvp is machariel. No question here. The best hands down. Rattlesnake is good as passive tanking pve ship. Its not even close to "king of pve."
Guess which one is closer to reality.
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Fon Revedhort
Monks of War DarkSide.
3
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Posted - 2011.10.05 12:03:00 -
[35] - Quote
nvm CCP Greyscale: "is the Nighthawk actually underpowered?" |
MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
27
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Posted - 2011.10.05 15:00:00 -
[36] - Quote
the nightmare fit right is deadly... not much can take it on... but then again spend 3 billion on mods and you should be near "concord"... but tbh sansha could use a boost... sub the tracking bonus for an optimal range... and presto... best faction out there... |
tsukubasteve
The Park Bench
2
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Posted - 2011.10.05 15:09:00 -
[37] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:So, i've been comparing the Sansha ships to other pirate faction BS's, in particular Angel Cartel and Serpentis. The Sansha ships seem inferior.
Consider the nightmare vs the mach:
Very similar damage to the mach No damage type selection for the nightmare (bad for PvE) The mach has much better range/damage projection Very similar tank (base shield Hp both in the 9,000's, mach has a higher passive regen and smaller sig radius) The nightmare is much slower and has a much larger sig radius The nightmare has a 25% smaller drone bacy The Nightmare has only marginally better tracking when the higher base tracking of autocannons is considered. The nightmare's cap can barely take firing the guns
The Phantasm and Succubus stack up along similar lines - they just aren't that good compared to other pirate faction ships.
The nightmare is no good for PvP given its poor cap, speed, and cost Its not much good for PvE given its lack of damage selection
The only thing it seems good for is running incursions, where it is merely the equal of a mach.
I'm thinking Sansha ships need an improved capacitor, or higher speed and lower sig, or expanded drone bay, or extra mid/low slot (Give the nightmare the mid+ low slot layout of a rattler?.
Because at the moment... I don't really see a point to flying the Nightmare anymore. The mach can do everything the nightmare can do, and so much more.
Lay off the crack-o's in the morning.
Didn't we just re-do all the pirate battleships a while back? I seem to remember tons of Mass testing on SISI where dev's repeatedly doomsday'd us all.
Either way, the nightmare is OP, perhaps you don't understand how to fit a ship? EFT warriors often have trouble with their "OMFGBBQSauce this fit is the best!!111!!" in real gameplay, especially when in PvP.
Also, what does cap regen matter when you're running a cap booster. (You do use that in PvP right? or did we all start using passive regen and no one told me?) |
tsukubasteve
The Park Bench
2
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Posted - 2011.10.05 15:14:00 -
[38] - Quote
Aamrr wrote:When I'm looking at pirate batteships to boost, the Nightmare isn't exactly the one that comes to mind...
Rattlesnake, anyone? Seriously, why does anyone fly that crap?
PvE,
Few faction mods and t2 rigs? 2200 dps omni tank passive? just drop your ogres after you agro everything and walk away to have a coffee. |
Lugalzagezi666
7
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Posted - 2011.10.05 15:21:00 -
[39] - Quote
You seem like you have absolutely no idea what are you talking about. Sad.
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tsukubasteve
The Park Bench
2
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Posted - 2011.10.05 15:33:00 -
[40] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:You seem like you have absolutely no idea what are you talking about. Sad.
It's sad that we have to do this.
All these battleships were changed around, after extensive testing on sisi. If anyone wanted their input into it, they should have been there offering suggestions like those who did.
I'm fine with the way things turned out. The Mach is great in pve or pvp, the nightmare can still hit from massive range with beams and drop most stuff before it gets close. The rattlesnake is still a black hole that simply absorbs damage (almost none escapes out of it though). I just fail to see the reason to buff/nerf any of these ships, and more than they already have. If your flying something and it doesn't work well in the role you're using it for, then perhaps your flying the wrong ship. Try another one?
Personally, if I was going to PvP a faction battleship, I'd use navy/fleet issue ships. They're half the price, and still put out impressive dps. Not like anyone ever pvp's solo any more anyways, so bring your buddies and your logi alts and go pillage. |
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Lugalzagezi666
7
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Posted - 2011.10.05 16:10:00 -
[41] - Quote
People were offering suggestions whole the time before dominion expansion. And wise people saved you from plainly ******** idea of 10mn ab assault frigs for example. Sadly, there were so many minmatard whiners who dont give a **** about balance /most likely within ccp balancing team too/, that ccp just decided to give it a go. So thank to the "suggestions" of clueless people that listened to "omg minmatar are bad" hype and spammed the forums, we got massive projectile weapon overboost and resulting imbalance - among pirate ships too.
I understand that many people "are fine" with changes. Most of them are probably passionate kiters. Its true, they cant complain, ccp gave them foolproof instruments for their play style. Rest of the people who got bored with this minmatar/angel fagotry in the first three months... can wait for next expansions, because with dominion ccp basically stated, that kiting and range control is the only "right" playstyle for small to med pvp enviroment.
Btw, you were mentioning pvp in nightmare and here you are talking about beams. Clearly shows you have no idea about the ship. No sane person would go pvp with beam nightmare. Not only because its stupid idea, but because arty mach does it so much better too.
Personally if i was going to do gate/station hugging "solo" pvp with hg crystals, tengu booster and falcon alt/s - i would choose maelstrom. Up to point range it spits out dps comparable with nightmare, with almost the same tracking and selectable damage type, it tanks slightly better, has more drones and doesnt need 2 heavy noses just to keep the guns running. And its 800mil cheaper.
Ah, and people still do solo, most of them can be seen in dramiels, vagas, nanocanes, cynabals and machs. I bet its because they like to play "the underdogs."
tsukubasteve wrote:If your flying something and it doesn't work well in the role you're using it for, then perhaps your flying the wrong ship. Try angel one? fyp
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Cambarus
Clearly Compensating
10
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Posted - 2011.10.05 16:16:00 -
[42] - Quote
tsukubasteve wrote: It's sad that we have to do this.
All these battleships were changed around, after extensive testing on sisi. If anyone wanted their input into it, they should have been there offering suggestions like those who did.
People were providing imput for the smaller sansha ships (especially the phantasm, as it has one slot less than all the other pirate faction cruisers and is arguably the worst of them) and they were completely ignored.
tsukubasteve wrote: I'm fine with the way things turned out. The Mach is great in pve or pvp, the nightmare can still hit from massive range with beams and drop most stuff before it gets close. The rattlesnake is still a black hole that simply absorbs damage (almost none escapes out of it though). I just fail to see the reason to buff/nerf any of these ships, and more than they already have. If your flying something and it doesn't work well in the role you're using it for, then perhaps your flying the wrong ship. Try another one?
1) I keep telling people this in incursion chats, and it never seems to sink in: Tanking is not a role. Sometimes bait has a use, but a ship known solely for its ability to tank is not exactly good bait material. In PVE however, where the only objective, quantifiable means of determining how well you're doing is your isk/hour ratios, the way you do better is by increasing applied DPS, which means that every slot you put towards tanking (and therefore NOT applying damage) is a slot wasted. That said, the nightmare is fine as it is. It follows just about every other amarr ship out there: better at em/therm missions than its matari counterpart but worse at the others.
IMO the phantasm and succubus could both be fixed with the addition of an extra turret hardpoint. Multiple utility highs on a cruiser/frig are nice, but an extra turret would be nicer.
tsukubasteve wrote: Personally, if I was going to PvP a faction battleship, I'd use navy/fleet issue ships. They're half the price, and still put out impressive dps. Not like anyone ever pvp's solo any more anyways, so bring your buddies and your logi alts and go pillage.
The fact that you think DPS is what makes pirate faction ships good speaks volumes about your knowledge (or lack thereof) wrt how they should be balanced.
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MeBiatch
Republic University Minmatar Republic
27
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Posted - 2011.10.05 16:42:00 -
[43] - Quote
i think we can all say that the nightmare is ok... but the tracking bonus is lame on the phantasm.... give that an optimal range bonus... that way you can armor hac with zealots and shield hac with phantasm |
Lugalzagezi666
7
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Posted - 2011.10.05 17:05:00 -
[44] - Quote
MeBiatch wrote:i think we can all say that the nightmare is ok... but the tracking bonus is lame on the phantasm.... give that an optimal range bonus... that way you can armor hac with zealots and shield hac with phantasm
You are wrong. We cant all say that nightmare is ok, because simply - it is not. It doesnt offer anything compared to other pirate battleships like mach, bhaal or vindi, it doesnt even offer better tank than t1 maelstrom while having serious disadvantages like cap management.
Your suggestion about phantasm also points to fact, that you dont seem to understand, that shield hac gangs need fast and agile ships to work. Phantasm is slow and fat. Even with optimal bonus it would make terrible shield hac compared to cyna, vaga or even zealot.
It needs AT LEAST 2 more effective turrets, FULL flight of lights, pre-dominion hp and enough pg to fit. |
Sphit Ker
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
8
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Posted - 2011.10.06 14:17:00 -
[45] - Quote
So. I finally undocked my Nightmare today. Meh... It's obviously not good enough.
I tagged along an Alpha fleet (1400mm Maelstroms etc) to kill a Sansha mothership at the incursion in Fountain. OK It's not PVP but I'm glad it was not. It left me with the impression that a plain everyday normal Maelstrom is better in every way for 33% the price.
For a billion ISK, I got: * DPS of Abaddon (~810 turret DPS as configured) * Shield tank comparable to Maelstrom. (roughly 2.5k raw HP more. tut tut) * Sexy hull with pokey bits.
I can't comment much about the capacitor since I had basilisk cap buddy who kept me caped up at never less than 60%. Yet, while sitting in the staging POS prior to deployment, running the hardeners and the AB alone dropped the cap just below stability threshold.
I didn't even shoot yet.
So, if it has a "role", what is it exactly? If I have to know how to "use it right", what is the right way exactly? Being an expensive loss mail certainly isn't a role.
I don't know what to conclude. PVE? huh... it's supposed to be good against Sansha/Blood rats but then again it's a shield tanker with T1 resists. Get the joke?
For me, it's probably heading right back to Jita. :(
edit: Give it a range bonus on top of a reduction to laser capacitor use or I don't care for it. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
3
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Posted - 2011.10.06 14:20:00 -
[46] - Quote
Phantasm needs an extra low really bad, id say more hp or better highs but actually with the extra low might be too much.
Nightmare is a heavy laser BS that shield tanks to able better gank , i dont see any problem with this ship. |
Lugalzagezi666
9
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Posted - 2011.10.06 14:38:00 -
[47] - Quote
Muad 'dib wrote:Phantasm needs an extra low really bad, id say more hp or better highs but actually with the extra low might be too much.
Nightmare is a heavy laser BS that shield tanks to able better gank , i dont see any problem with this ship.
And yet when you fly bs sized ship its machariel 99% of the time.
I bet you would switch your cynabal for phantasm if it had one more low slot and 35k ehp. It cant be that bad when its only 50% slower right?
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m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2011.10.06 15:04:00 -
[48] - Quote
Nightmare:
Having flown all sansha ships solo. I can tell you they are one of the best and most well rounded of the pirate faction ships. Phantasm has its issues though.
Nightmare does more damage or as much damage as a Vindicaters. In fact you need to put in alot of isk into a Vindicaters tank for it to be worth flying solo. Once you have tanked a Vindicater to the point it's worth flying, your damage is pretty under whelming. @ that point! You might as well think about flying a Navy Megathron.
So the nightmare does 1400 damage per second with faction damage mods. The tank can be tier 2 and still provide a better defense, without using faction modules. Thanks to it's 7 mid slots. With the help of low grade or high grade crystals (you get the picture). This is for close range mind you. It is no rattlesnake, which is the King when it comes to tanking. Having flown it. The more isk you put into it the more god like that thing tanks, while maintaining 1000dps. But! The Nightmare is still in the running when it comes to tank.
Since many have not seen or flown in a nano nightmare fleet. I'll give you some insight here. Provided you have the right bonuses, 2 Nanofibers and Low or High grade snakes. These ships can play a role in a gang of Machariels or just Nightmares. They put out a SERIOUS amount of damage @ range, with a pretty large buffer tank. Things melt quick! Kinda like nano'shield-apocs in Tempest gangs.
Phantasm:
I've only flown the phantasm solo, but they should work very well in fleets. The ship has always out preformed a Vigilant. Damage goes down hard and fast. Think my setup does 600dps close range. Destroys frigates pretty fast like any other nano-ship might. With a more well rounded setup it mirrors a Cynabal in terms of damage under 24km. Not as fast as a Cynabal, but anything going over 1300m/sec is nano to me and very viable, in my opinion. If you've flown damage setups for both the Vigilant and Phatasm. You will find the Phatasm does bring down ships ALOT faster.
Succubus:
Flown this ship enough to know it's got some Serious damage. When it comes to damage and maintain a very good tank. NOTHING COMES CLOSE. Dramiels are melted with ease. Engagements with Daredevils almost never reach armor. Mainly because this ship mirrors the Coercer in terms of damage. You can get 300dps out of it.
Thoughts/rant:
For close range battleship pvp in a faction ship. Nothing is better than a Rattlesnake. Price to preformance, the Navy Megathron wins close range. However, I think the NIghtmare is second when it comes to tanking of the pirate faction battleships, second in damage (but first in real pvp, with the Macharial). The nightmare can do the nanof@g thing (second only to the Fleet Tempest and Machariel).
Looking @ the cruisers. The Phantasm was always just a gimp Cynabal, with more damage close range. The Gila is the best close range pirate faction cruiser and the Cynabal is the best nano faction cruiser. The Phantasm falls between the 2.
The Succubus is a VERY good frigate. Better than a Daredevil, but worse than a Dramiel because it lacks the ability to disengage. However, it does the most damage of any pirate faction frigate in real pvp. Thing sh!ts damage! Ship has many setups to choose from, but I'm referencing a full damage setup.
-proxyyyy |
Lugalzagezi666
9
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Posted - 2011.10.06 15:10:00 -
[49] - Quote
Holy jesus this guy is still completely clueless after all the years.
You still flying blaster hawks and such things? |
m0cking bird
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
1
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Posted - 2011.10.06 15:32:00 -
[50] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Holy jesus this guy is still completely clueless after all the years. You still flying blaster hawks and such things?
Your Mum likes my BLASTA HAWK... |
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Lugalzagezi666
9
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Posted - 2011.10.06 15:37:00 -
[51] - Quote
My mum flies dramiels. |
Muad 'dib
The Imperial Fedaykin
3
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Posted - 2011.10.06 16:47:00 -
[52] - Quote
Lugalzagezi666 wrote:Muad 'dib wrote:Phantasm needs an extra low really bad, id say more hp or better highs but actually with the extra low might be too much.
Nightmare is a heavy laser BS that shield tanks to able better gank , i dont see any problem with this ship. And yet when you fly bs sized ship its machariel 99% of the time. I bet you would switch your cynabal for phantasm if it had one more low slot and 35k ehp. It cant be that bad when its only 50% slower right?
Well for pure pvp the faster ships going to be better while it does simlier dps etc.
The sansha ships might be good with a split role bonus of 5% range 5% tracking instead of 7.5 tracking, give them a little more than just "lasers'n'shields".
Id fly a phantasm if it was actually better than a nano zealot with a shield extender, but its not and thats very funny.
ALso the cruiser suffers the same thing as all cruiser shield tankers, if you cant fit a buffer it doesnt get used, as active shield setups on cruisers are 99% joke fodder. |
AureoLion
Etoilles Mortant Ltd. Solyaris Chtonium
7
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Posted - 2011.10.09 15:53:00 -
[53] - Quote
Comparing to angel, using the overpowered projectiles, is pretty useless. Dramiel, Cynabal and Machariel are all three the top-tier, more or less. Cynabal a bit less, but still. Comparing to the other pirate BSs, it's a lot more feasible. Except against the Bhaalgorn, perhaps. |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
7
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Posted - 2011.10.09 16:06:00 -
[54] - Quote
Ok, so you want us to ignore the blood raiders, and ignore the Angel Cartel ships.....
That leaves the Rattlesnake: a souped up Domi, for PVE, a role which the Nightmare is not intended for
and
The Vindicator, which out DPS's it, and has the utility of an ++ber web and a larger drone bay. Not to mention better agility and a 28% higher base speed.
Although I'm not much of a fan of the Vindi, the Frigs and cruisers from Serpentis really outshine the battleship. |
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