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Amateratsu
The Pegasus Project
25
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 13:04:00 -
[1] - Quote
Reduce the number of gated rooms - there is nothing more boring than having to slowboat 40 - 50km to each gate in multiple rooms.
Reduce the number of npc,s - but make them much tougher, instead of multiple rooms filled with 20+ npc,s have 1 (maybe 2) rooms with 2 to 4 groups of 3 or 4 npc,s, but make those npc,s as tough as the previous 20+ and take as long to kill. Give them the ehp / resists and dps of an equivalent player fitted ship.
Inprove Npc AI. - the upcoming AI changes are a good start, but the pilot of an npc should be thinking hey i'm getting hammered, im warping out to rep up... give them the abbility to warp / micro jump out of range to rep up and then return to the battle rather than the current lemmings to the slaughter.
So you will have to tackle / scram them to hold them in place. Have only 1 group aggro at a time, unless you get too close or shoot at another group, in which can your in serious risk of getting your ass handed to you on a platter.
Remove / reduce bounties - remove the isk faucet that everyone complains about, compensate by increasing LP payout and add lots more shinnies to the LP Stores, That way the isk comes from trading those shinnies with other players instead of an isk faucet.
Reduce the quantity of tags required to purchase LP store items - Seriously, the quantity of tags required for most items in the LP stores is ludicrous and can only be obtained by buying them of the market which renders a lot of the LP store items worthless and cheaper to buy from the player market than the LP Store. increase LP required to buy items, reduce isk / tags required.
TLDR. Reduce # NPC's, make them much toughter, remove / reduce bountys, increase LP Reward / Items to compensate Heat shields activated, flame away |
Bunnie Hop
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
380
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 13:08:00 -
[2] - Quote
No thanks. |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp. R O G U E
609
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 13:14:00 -
[3] - Quote
so you're suggesting more effort for less reward?
i can see this going down well. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Amateratsu
The Pegasus Project
25
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 13:22:00 -
[4] - Quote
Dave stark wrote:so you're suggesting more effort for less reward?
i can see this going down well.
No, the reward would be balance by increasing the LP and adiing more / better items to the LP Store.
For example increase the lp payout to say 25 - 30k for a good mission, add more valuable items to the store for example multiple run bpc's for ships and other factions items.
How about a 5 run faction battleship bpc for say 1.5m LP?
So the reward will be as good as it is now.
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Bunnie Hop
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
380
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 13:24:00 -
[5] - Quote
Amateratsu wrote:Dave stark wrote:so you're suggesting more effort for less reward?
i can see this going down well. No, the reward would be balance by increasing the LP and adiing more / better items to the LP Store. For example increase the lp payout to say 25 - 30k for a good mission, add more valuable items to the store for example multiple run bpc's for ships and other factions items. How about a 5 run faction battleship bpc for say 1.5m LP? So the reward will be as good as it is now.
Then the market will be flooded with that crap and they will be worthless. Missions already earn considerably less then they did years ago and if people are to afford pvp they need an income. Missions are not the faucet that forum fighters would have you believe. |
Jonah Gravenstein
Holistic Materials Research Council
3292
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 13:26:00 -
[6] - Quote
Amateratsu wrote:Reduce the number of gated rooms - there is nothing more boring than having to slowboat 40 - 50km to each gate in multiple rooms.
Reduce the number of npc,s - but make them much tougher, instead of multiple rooms filled with 20+ npc,s have 1 (maybe 2) rooms with 2 to 4 groups of 3 or 4 npc,s, but make those npc,s as tough as the previous 20+ and take as long to kill. Give them the ehp / resists and dps of an equivalent player fitted ship.
Inprove Npc AI. - the upcoming AI changes are a good start, but the pilot of an npc should be thinking hey i'm getting hammered, im warping out to rep up... give them the abbility to warp / micro jump out of range to rep up and then return to the battle rather than the current lemmings to the slaughter.
So you will have to tackle / scram them to hold them in place. Have only 1 group aggro at a time, unless you get too close or shoot at another group, in which can your in serious risk of getting your ass handed to you on a platter.
Remove / reduce bounties - remove the isk faucet that everyone complains about, compensate by increasing LP payout and add lots more shinnies to the LP Stores, That way the isk comes from trading those shinnies with other players instead of an isk faucet.
Reduce the quantity of tags required to purchase LP store items - Seriously, the quantity of tags required for most items in the LP stores is ludicrous and can only be obtained by buying them of the market which renders a lot of the LP store items worthless and cheaper to buy from the player market than the LP Store. increase LP required to buy items, reduce isk / tags required.
TLDR. Reduce # NPC's, make them much toughter, remove / reduce bountys, increase LP Reward / Items to compensate Heat shields activated, flame away
Go to a wormhole, most of what you want is already there.
Blessed are the meek, for they shall be slaughtered -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á---CCP can't patch stupid---
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Oleszka
Syntropia Of Avatara
20
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 13:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
Amateratsu wrote:Reduce the number of gated rooms - there is nothing more boring than having to slowboat 40 - 50km to each gate in multiple rooms.
Reduce the number of npc,s - but make them much tougher, instead of multiple rooms filled with 20+ npc,s have 1 (maybe 2) rooms with 2 to 4 groups of 3 or 4 npc,s, but make those npc,s as tough as the previous 20+ and take as long to kill. Give them the ehp / resists and dps of an equivalent player fitted ship.
Inprove Npc AI. - the upcoming AI changes are a good start, but the pilot of an npc should be thinking hey i'm getting hammered, im warping out to rep up... give them the abbility to warp / micro jump out of range to rep up and then return to the battle rather than the current lemmings to the slaughter.
So you will have to tackle / scram them to hold them in place. Have only 1 group aggro at a time, unless you get too close or shoot at another group, in which can your in serious risk of getting your ass handed to you on a platter.
Remove / reduce bounties - remove the isk faucet that everyone complains about, compensate by increasing LP payout and add lots more shinnies to the LP Stores, That way the isk comes from trading those shinnies with other players instead of an isk faucet.
Reduce the quantity of tags required to purchase LP store items - Seriously, the quantity of tags required for most items in the LP stores is ludicrous and can only be obtained by buying them of the market which renders a lot of the LP store items worthless and cheaper to buy from the player market than the LP Store. increase LP required to buy items, reduce isk / tags required.
TLDR. Reduce # NPC's, make them much toughter, remove / reduce bountys, increase LP Reward / Items to compensate Heat shields activated, flame away
wtf!
you know eve have different shiptype and this shiptype are for different thinks, like for different missions btw....
if you boring of missions, and the npc are not smart enough for you change to FW or go 0.0 or low sec....
its seems to me, you dont know nothing about eve... sorry
EvE-Movie, take a look and enjoy it PushMe |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp. R O G U E
609
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 13:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
Bunnie Hop wrote:Amateratsu wrote:Dave stark wrote:so you're suggesting more effort for less reward?
i can see this going down well. No, the reward would be balance by increasing the LP and adiing more / better items to the LP Store. For example increase the lp payout to say 25 - 30k for a good mission, add more valuable items to the store for example multiple run bpc's for ships and other factions items. How about a 5 run faction battleship bpc for say 1.5m LP? So the reward will be as good as it is now. Then the market will be flooded with that crap and they will be worthless. Missions already earn considerably less then they did years ago and if people are to afford pvp they need an income. Missions are not the faucet that forum fighters would have you believe.
this.
hence, more effort for less reward. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10293
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 13:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bunnie Hop wrote:Then the market will be flooded with that crap and they will be worthless. Then it will create a self-balancing ecosystem that keeps people flowing from one activity to the next (or, more likely, from one faction to the next).
Quote:Missions already earn considerably less then they did years ago and if people are to afford pvp they need an income. Nah. Missions earn about the same GÇö it has just become relatively worse compared to the new means of making money that have been introduced.
Quote:Missions are not the faucet that forum fighters would have you believe. Actually, they are, and the numbers are there to show it.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
Pohbis
Neo T.E.C.H.
77
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 14:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Bunnie Hop wrote: Then the market will be flooded with that crap and they will be worthless.
Here you show that you understand the basics of the market.
Bunnie Hop wrote: Missions already earn considerably less then they did years ago and if people are to afford pvp they need an income.
But here it falls apart suddenly. If missioners earned considerably less, the prices would have adjusted to the lower income. Obviously this hasn't happened - it's not the miners, Tech Mongers or industrialists keeping prices up, everyone else but the PvEers are just redistributing the money that mission, ratter and Incursion players are injecting into the economy.
Bunnie Hop wrote: Missions are not the faucet that forum fighters would have you believe.
Yes, they really are. Go look up the quarterly reports. |
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Bunnie Hop
Sebiestor Tribe Minmatar Republic
380
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 14:04:00 -
[11] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Bunnie Hop wrote:Then the market will be flooded with that crap and they will be worthless. Then it will create a self-balancing ecosystem that keeps people flowing from one activity to the next (or, more likely, from one faction to the next). Quote:Missions already earn considerably less then they did years ago and if people are to afford pvp they need an income. Nah. Missions earn about the same GÇö it has just become relatively worse compared to the new means of making money that have been introduced. Quote:Missions are not the faucet that forum fighters would have you believe. Actually, they are, and the numbers are there to show it.
The elimination of drone metals and lower meta drops made missions far less profitable. As for a self balancing ecosystem, I don't see that happening. The only result of this action would be the large null sec blob alliances would control even a greater percentage of the games wealth, in my opinion. Not denegrating your position but I just disagree. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
497
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 14:05:00 -
[12] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Bunnie Hop wrote:Then the market will be flooded with that crap and they will be worthless. Then it will create a self-balancing ecosystem that keeps people flowing from one activity to the next (or, more likely, from one faction to the next). Quote:Missions already earn considerably less then they did years ago and if people are to afford pvp they need an income. Nah. Missions earn about the same GÇö it has just become relatively worse compared to the new means of making money that have been introduced. Quote:Missions are not the faucet that forum fighters would have you believe. Actually, they are, and the numbers are there to show it.
The only numbers i've seen only said npc bounties were the highest faucet. Do you have something that breaks it down between missions and complexes?
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Jace Errata
AirHogs Zulu People
294
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 15:09:00 -
[13] - Quote
Worth remembering that while missions still give a fair amount of ISK, that ISK now buys less. I get ~100k-~300k ISK per L3 mission; an empty Blackbird hull costs 4m ISK. Good fittings cost more, and of course missions are tedious enough that it's hard to make yourself do the 20 in a row you need for the hull alone.
In short, missions need to be interesting before you should consider nerfing them. If they're nerfed and boring, nobody will run them. Stealth OST puns and blatant lies since 2009 Jace Errata on Twitter
One day they woke me up so I could live forever It's such a shame the same will never happen to you |
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
691
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 15:20:00 -
[14] - Quote
Thank you for your concern, people of 0.0, but i assure you hisec is OK.
Seems to me, if anywhere needs improvements, it's the wasteland of 0.0. Maybe you should put some brain power towards that instead of this nearly decade old skipping record. "It's no use crying over spilt milk, because all the forces of the universe were bent on spilling it." ~William Maugham |
Elvis Fett
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
108
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 15:32:00 -
[15] - Quote
Jace Errata wrote:Worth remembering that while missions still give a fair amount of ISK, that ISK now buys less. I get ~100k-~300k ISK per L3 mission; an empty Blackbird hull costs 4m ISK. Good fittings cost more, and of course missions are tedious enough that it's hard to make yourself do the 20 in a row you need for the hull alone.
In short, missions need to be interesting before you should consider nerfing them. If they're nerfed and boring, nobody will run them.
See the OP is really not suggesting nerfing missions, if anything it may be a bit of a buff. Jace you hit the nail on the head, your isk buys less than it did 24 or even 12 months ago, and that is due to inflation. Every time somebody runs a mission they are rewarded with fresh isk injected into the economy. This means that every single time somebody besides you runs a mission the isk you have in your wallet becomes worth less. As more isk comes into the game, the buying power of the isk you have drops.
If missions rewards were changed to not be worth less, but to be paid out with mostly items as opposed to new isk, it would benefit the mission runner (and every one else in New Eden). You would be getting the same amount of isk (after selling LP items), but your isk would have much better purchasing power allowing you to by more ships for the same amount of isk.
Although I do think this is a pretty good idea, IMO wormholes are a more pressing matter. They are massive massive isk faucets, and due to the sheer number of wormholes there are pretty risk free. There is no competition with WHs because there are so many, pretty much every pilot in EVE could have their own solo C5. Half the amount of wormholes and make those WH corps fight for their isk faucets. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10294
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 15:57:00 -
[16] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:The only numbers i've seen only said npc bounties were the highest faucet. Do you have something that breaks it down between missions and complexes? We have large-N studies that show that mission bounties on average equate to 3GÇô4+ù the base and bonus rewards, putting the bounty portion from missions at roughly half (leaning towards more than half) the global bounty payout.
Elvis Fett wrote:[Although I do think this is a pretty good idea, IMO wormholes are a more pressing matter. They are massive massive isk faucets, and due to the sheer number of wormholes there are pretty risk free. They still only inject maybe a third the ISK of missions. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
Elvis Fett
Autocannons Anonymous Late Night Alliance
108
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 16:05:00 -
[17] - Quote
Elvis Fett wrote:[Although I do think this is a pretty good idea, IMO wormholes are a more pressing matter. They are massive massive isk faucets, and due to the sheer number of wormholes there are pretty risk free. They still only inject maybe a third the ISK of missions.[/quote]
You may be right, but there are 20x more mission runners than WH dwellers. Missions are very accessible while WHs are not so much. If high-sec mission runners moved to empty wormholes in droves, our economy would be in trouble. |
Nexus Day
Native Freshfood Minmatar Republic
100
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 16:18:00 -
[18] - Quote
So let me get this straight.
Mission running injects alot of isk into the economy because....
There are a lot more casual mission runners these days that.pay a sub, so...
Let's try and make their life more difficult, and then maybe....
We can get them to unsub, then....
We will be left with more hardcore players that don't pay a sub to play as a percentage.
I have no idea why the community wouldn't want this and why CCP shouldn't consider this. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10294
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 16:35:00 -
[19] - Quote
Nexus Day wrote:Mission running injects alot of isk into the economy because....
There are a lot more casual mission runners these days that.pay a sub, so... GǪthey are the perfect target for reductions in ISK injection since you can go a long way with very little. Their large numbers mean that even a small change can have a large effect, all without making the life miserable for them individually so no subs will be lost. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
Rengerel en Distel
Amarr Science and Industry
497
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 17:29:00 -
[20] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Rengerel en Distel wrote:The only numbers i've seen only said npc bounties were the highest faucet. Do you have something that breaks it down between missions and complexes? We have large-N studies that show that mission bounties on average equate to 3GÇô4+ù the base and bonus rewards, putting the bounty portion from missions at roughly half (leaning towards more than half) the global bounty payout. Elvis Fett wrote:[Although I do think this is a pretty good idea, IMO wormholes are a more pressing matter. They are massive massive isk faucets, and due to the sheer number of wormholes there are pretty risk free. They still only inject maybe a third the ISK of missions.
That doesn't actually answer my question, which was what is the breakdown from mission rats vs complex rats? The only thing i have seen talk about rats in general, with no breakdown. It could be argued as easily that is the 0.0 players running 10/10 DED complexes that are the ones turning on the isk faucet.
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10294
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 17:51:00 -
[21] - Quote
Rengerel en Distel wrote:That doesn't actually answer my question, which was what is the breakdown from mission rats vs complex rats? You mean apart from saying that (just over) half the global bounty payout is likely to come from missions, based on the what we know about the mission reward payouts and how they correlate with mission bounty payouts? GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
MinefieldS
1 Sick Duck Standss on something
171
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 20:07:00 -
[22] - Quote
Move lvl 4s to lowsec. |
Zoe Issier
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
0
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 20:52:00 -
[23] - Quote
Link the large N-studys you say you have that shows most the isk come from missions or is it just a random number you pulled out your @ss
all the carriers running noms in 0.0 av nothing to do with it am i tight? |
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 21:13:00 -
[24] - Quote
The trouble is, the AI in this game is very skeletal.
They don't adhere to capacitor, they don't adhere to scan res, they don't adhere to tracking or ships ranges.
Remember when they dicked around with Guristas ECM? It was I-Win. You fight a macro when you fight the PvE so the script sayd they warp out at 80% Hull. They will, every time. Fit a scrambler you say? Ever watch a rat close in on you from 150 km out? Takes them 15 seconds. So you scram him get him to 80% hull, he MWD I-Wins to 30km and warps away, every time.
They would need to remodel the AI from the ground up and in the end it would still be seen as an ISK grind, just much slower.
The game is already a grindwhore. It doesn't need to be made in to more of one. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10295
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 21:15:00 -
[25] - Quote
Zoe Issier wrote:Link the large N-studys you say you have that shows most the isk come from missions or is it just a random number you pulled out your @ss Search for Kefira's GÇ£mission incomeGÇ¥ threads.
Quote:all the carriers running noms in 0.0 av nothing to do with it am i right? There's too few of them.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
Zoe Issier
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
1
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 21:29:00 -
[26] - Quote
Why should i search you made the claim so back up your claim with a up to date study of the numbers
no proff gtfo |
stoicfaux
1762
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 21:35:00 -
[27] - Quote
Mission AI is being overhauled. http://community.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=73413
Making NPCs act more like player ships has been discussed before. I can't find the dev comments, but IIRC, it's a nice goal but it's non-trivial to do due to having to replace/remake all the missions, balance them, balance the rewards, redo all the NPCs, etc..
You can tell me what is and isn't Truth when you pry the tinfoil from my cold, lifeless head. Feature Request: -áDamnation Ship Codpiece-áfor the NeX store.
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Piugattuk
CLOROFLORFILAPLANKTONPLATES
91
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 21:35:00 -
[28] - Quote
Ok, sure. Just get rid of the need to buy LP store items with isk and tags...whoops, that kills someone else's income, tags, farming tags would be pointless cause who will buy them if you don't need it for LP store, this takes content out of the game. Sure im for it if I won't need tags and isk to buy pimp items.
And keep LP prices for items as is. As it is now its cheaper to buy a hookbill off market then get BPC with LP+isk+minerals+build charge from NPC slots+taxes. |
Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
1903
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 21:37:00 -
[29] - Quote
Amateratsu wrote: TLDR. Reduce # NPC's, make them much toughter, remove / reduce bountys, increase LP Reward / Items to compensate Heat shields activated, flame away
Your TLDR will get no argument from me.
It's been a long time since I've run any but courier missions (standings grind), but as I recall they were about as exciting as mining is for me. Which is to say, not very.
They need to have variety, have a challenge and have a reason to exist. I'd like to see some easily soloed and some that require teamwork. I would like to see, as well, the need for a PVP fit to be successfully completed. Right now running missions is good training for running missions. They should be good training for PVP.
As it stands, the transition from PVE to PVP is a cliff that is nearly unscalable. What it should be is a hill that can be climbed if you apply yourself. The only reason to keep things as they are is to please the whiny, risk averse griefers that cannot lose against missioners due to the overpowering advantage of the PVP fit against the PVE fit.
Missions need to be changed from ISK generators to training grounds with an ISK incentive for performing well.
Mr Epeen There is no excuse beyond fatalistic self-indulgence and sheer laziness for doing nothing --á Iain Banks |
Sisohiv
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
126
|
Posted - 2012.11.11 21:43:00 -
[30] - Quote
Piugattuk wrote:Ok, sure. Just get rid of the need to buy LP store items with isk and tags...whoops, that kills someone else's income, tags, farming tags would be pointless cause who will buy them if you don't need it for LP store, this takes content out of the game. Sure im for it if I won't need tags and isk to buy pimp items. And keep LP prices for items as is.
Nobody uses tags in the LP store. Most items you can just throw more LP and ISK at rather than build tag shopping lists. Items you can't do that with aren't in the markets. |
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