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Cedric Zateki
Northwest Industries International Technical Exploration Conglomerate of Hemera
0
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Posted - 2012.11.16 07:05:00 -
[1] - Quote
A problem discussed in a number of General Discussion Threads and in a couple more in Features & Ideas [linked below], generally summed up, the latest trend in anti-mining activity is bumping mining barges and exhumers outside of cycle range to deny them the ability to harvest resources.
This is a problem for miners as they are unable to be productive with zero risk to the bumper.
//**Begin Long Read
Traditionally when there is behavior in Eve there are consequences to the action. You shoot someone in HS, CONCORD shoots you back. Harass a corporation, they declare war on you (or get some Mercenaries to do it). Get yourself low security status from being a successful pirate; find it harder to operate in HS.
Specifically the issue is more against the NPC corporation mining bumper. The prospective bumper joins an NPC corporation to hide from counter aggression mechanics provided through war declaration. The bumper then devotes their time to making minersGÇÖ lives miserable. A flimsy attempt to make the activity profitable through extortion is occasionally made to legitimize the activity.
Many also argue that a player can use the bounty system as means of retribution for the misconduct of another pilot. Currently that is not an option as the bumper simply needs to keep their security status above -1.0. With the new winter expansion the bounty system would not deter or even be meaningful, as the player would never have kill rights out on them, and that the cost of the bumper ships are incredibly low which effectively makes them immune to bounty hunters GÇô who would need to spend more ISK to kill them than they would receive.
The motivation of the bumpers should be more closely looked at as well. On the surface miners treat them as griefers. Look a little deeper and many people are aggravated by bots and AFK mining as income in Eve. The reasons why pilots started bumping may have been noble, but it is very unlikely the practice is continuing for the good of the game. What's the solution then?
It's not changing the bump mechanic, that's for sure. The ability to bump people is too useful in other avenues and professions to even consider doing away with it, or fundamentally changing the game mechanics to satisfy the miner population of Eve.
A common recommendation is to also make the act of bumping a hostile action under Crime Watch or to even have it come with a security status hit. Visions of frigates moving in the way of auto-piloting freighters immediately spring to mind as a counter argument. The sweeping changes and how they would drastically impact all other areas of Eve make this suggestion a very poor one.
An interesting solution is to add a new Space Anchoring mechanic for ships, via a module or context menu. Initiate the anchor and your ship becomes immobile, such as if your ship dropped a Cyno or entered a deployed mode, for a set duration. This option has a lot of potential, however would take a while to make it into Eve.
A similar concept of Resource Grappling through a module for mining vessels is another common suggestion. Target an asteroid, initiate the module and your hulk can't be moved more than X km away from it. This solution could work, however forces a miner to make even more decisions to counter the risk free play style of the bumper and adds lots to the development cycle of the developers and take quite some time to make it into Eve.
//**TL;DR
The simple and effective solution is to take advantage of current game mechanics and modules. Change the Stasis Webifier module to fall under the same remote logistics category of Shield Transporters or Remote Armor Repair Systems in terms of Crime Watch and hostile actions.
This would allow the miner to use a friend or any other neutral party to effectively deny a bumper the activity of bumping. This doesn't hurt the bumper as they can warp to safety at any time.
It also doesn't stop the bumper from hitting AFK miners and goes a bit further against the AFK play style by giving risk to AFK auto-piloting players. Using a neutral webber on parties already engaged would work exactly the way neutral remote repair works currently, to prevent abuses of the re-classification.
Benefits include limited development to apply the change and a new way to make income for new pilots as webbing escorts for freighters, orcas or any other large ship that wants to warp off a gate a bit more quickly.
//**Linked Threads for further reading Bumping Miners - A Solution space anchor The Right to AFK Mine - The Dystopia of 2015 is coming Should soft body physics be included in our collision model Miner bumpers and suicide gankers...
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
1114
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Posted - 2012.11.16 07:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Orbit the rock/ice you are mining? I hear it's very hard to bump people when you do that. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Rented
Hunter Heavy Industries
39
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Posted - 2012.11.16 08:18:00 -
[3] - Quote
>>>>>>>>Thread from the future<<<<<<<<<
Stasis Webifier Harrassment Solution
[insert half baked here] |
Schmata Bastanold
Black Rebel Rifter Club The Devil's Tattoo
152
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Posted - 2012.11.16 09:36:00 -
[4] - Quote
Why you need a solution for problem that doesn't exist? I am not my skills but... http://eveboard.com/pilot/Schmata_Bastanold |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
797
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Posted - 2012.11.16 10:00:00 -
[5] - Quote
orbit or keep at range on whatever you're mining. 'problem' solved. |
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
24
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Posted - 2012.11.16 11:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Orbit the rock/ice you are mining? I hear it's very hard to bump people when you do that.
edit: I just read your wall of text. If I understand you correctly... if someone uses a webifier (under your mechanics change) then he/she is flagged the same way they are flagged by remote repping someone... and can thus be shot at by anyone and everyone in high-sec (as per the new rules of "Crimewatch").
You didn't really think this through, did you? This will make the bumpers VERY, VERY happy.
You also failed to understand the new mechanics. If you Web someone who is NOT engaged in a conflict, nothing happens. Only if you intervene and web someone in a conflict do you get a flag.
That said, Webs are pretty hostile. Chances of me considering your web friendly.... very minimal. So should stay firmly in the area of 'Hostile' actions.
The real answer to mining bumping. DX-11 & Tesselation. So they have to direct hit you, not just clip your hit box which is huge.. At which point they may be able to introduce slightly more realistic momentum transfers also, so a barge with a hold full of ore will be a hard target to move very far or fast. And orbiting your rock will keep you well inside range at that point. |
Dave stark
Black Nova Corp. R O G U E
637
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Posted - 2012.11.16 11:14:00 -
[7] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:orbit or keep at range on whatever you're mining. 'problem' solved.
can't keep at range on asteroids. orbiting is likely to get you stuck on rocks.
however, approach works perfectly fine. Reading my posts is like panning for gold; most it will be useless, but occasionally you'll find a nugget of gold. |
Morrigan LeSante
The Lost and Forgotten Troopers
74
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Posted - 2012.11.16 12:25:00 -
[8] - Quote
My prediction?
Bumping will be altered to do nothing, unless the target is locked. If you "bump" a locked target, it is considered aggression and picks up a suspect flag unless it is a legitimate target (a-la can flipping/war/FW/etc).
Now people can still tactically bump in combat, jita 4-4 won't be carnage on undock and we'll see what happens to the instances of bumping after that.
Just my guess |
Archinquisitor
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
17
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Posted - 2012.11.16 12:30:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bumping miners out of range? You are right, this really totally destroys the game! We need a proper collision-damage system so bumped miners explode like they should. Supported.
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Furry Pirate
Viziam Amarr Empire
0
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Posted - 2012.11.16 16:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
As an Abaddon drone miner, I have no problem with Bumping - especially with my 6 x 1600mm plates.
I mean, even an Orca can dodge out of my way {yes, I tried - without a microwarp drive, they are faster}
On my other character, it was not too difficult to align my barge towards a prospective bumper and knock them right out of the belt.
It is only AFK miners who have cause to be worried about bumping - at best, it is an annoyance for the unobservant.
I have seen people extorting money out of this practise - you have been flagged for future reference in my contacts list. |
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
739
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Posted - 2012.11.16 19:58:00 -
[11] - Quote
Do yourself a favor and think before posting:
1.) Is a stasis webifier a solution? You do KNOW that you can attack a (non-NPC) corp mate without going GCC in highsec? That means, if stasis webbing an exhumer is a solution to bumping, nothing needs to change, as you can already have a corp mate web you down.... (note: you can still bump a webbed ship).
2.) If I can stasis webify a neutral person without going criminal in highsec, I can see it opening a whole can of worms, especially since several ships have 90% webs.... It's not all bad, but the reality is this change will have little to no effect on bumping miners, and much larger effects in extorting freighters.
3.) Bumping is completely justified by extorting miners... You can switch systems if it is a problem for you.... or you could declare war on the bumpers... or you could pay mercs to declare war on them... (Note: Bumper's hiding from wardecs by joining an NPC corp reminds me of miners joining NPC corps so they can hide from wardecs.... This sounds to me like there is a big problem with wardec immune corps).
4.) The grappling hook or anchor is by far the "optimal" solution in terms of game play.... However, I just don't see a reason to spend dev time on it, as this is a low priority issue. Really, if some group wants to declare all belts in a constellation theirs, and are willing to spend the time enforcing it.. why shouldn't they be allowed to? Pay them, Fight Them, cope with the bumping, or move! |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
1116
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Posted - 2012.11.16 20:30:00 -
[12] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:You also failed to understand the new mechanics. If you Web someone who is NOT engaged in a conflict, nothing happens. Only if you intervene and web someone in a conflict do you get a flag. Actually no... the upcoming Crimewatch mechanics makes it such that RR gives a global suspect flag... which allows anyone to shoot the "suspect," not just the people involved in the conflict. Since you stated in the OP that you want webs to fall under the same rules as RR that means anyone who webs a neutral with automatically become a "suspect" and be shot at by everyone. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
740
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Posted - 2012.11.16 21:01:00 -
[13] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Nevyn Auscent wrote:You also failed to understand the new mechanics. If you Web someone who is NOT engaged in a conflict, nothing happens. Only if you intervene and web someone in a conflict do you get a flag. Actually no... the upcoming Crimewatch mechanics makes it such that RR gives a global suspect flag... which allows anyone to shoot the "suspect," not just the people involved in the conflict. Since you stated in the OP that you want webs to fall under the same rules as RR that means anyone who webs a neutral with automatically become a "suspect" and be shot at by everyone.
Shah you're incorrect.... sort of....
RR does not immediately give you a suspect flag.
RR'ing a neutral who is NOT engaged in conflict dos NOT result in a suspect flag. RR'ing a neutral who has a PvP flag (i.e. someone who IS engaged in conflict) will give you the suspect flag.
Note: Neutral means out of corp, out of alliance, AND out of militia in this context.
So, the trick would be: put an alt in a noobship... and suicide the noobship onto the vessel getting webbed, and then you get 15 minutes to bump away... because if the webber webs again, they will incur a suspect flag allowing you to gank them.
P.S. Here is a good link to the issues and dilemma's of the new crimewatch system. I'm 100% certain that, despite what it the current phrasing of CCP Masterplan's statements, that the trigger event for giving a Neutral RR a suspect flag will require the repee to have a Weapons flag, and not only a PvP flag.... because if CCP doesn't change this, highsec incursions will be destroyed overnight! |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
1116
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Posted - 2012.11.16 22:02:00 -
[14] - Quote
Ahhh... mybad. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
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