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Sellendis
Masters of Zen Circle-Of-Two
162
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Posted - 2012.11.20 09:01:00 -
[31] - Quote
Every time i tested the new AI, the drones got killed....you send drones to 2 frigs orbiting you at 8.5km. Drones get webbed and killed. Cant even recall them in time. Missions with more frigates equals more ships taking one drone primary.
Aside screwing with the AI, and playing on AI aggro exploit, as it is now Galente and drone ships are hit hard. Skills for durability and stuff wont help for more than 1 sec. Bigger ships cant kill frigs with guns at close range, and when you run out of drones...well, its not gonna be fun for the ship owner.
On top of my head I can think of a few frig heavy missions, you get webbed and scrammed, and in all of them there are dozen frigs on field. Good luck killing them with 5 drones. |
Josef Djugashvilis
Acme Mining Corporation
756
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Posted - 2012.11.20 09:07:00 -
[32] - Quote
As a Gallente, I do level 4 missions with drones to pay for my horrendous losses in pvp.
If I can no longer earn isk in missions, my only real source of income for pvp is pretty much gone.
Mining for income? Nope.
The Blockade will be fun to do with dead drones.
Oh dear. This is not a signature. |
Spenser for Hire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 21:54:00 -
[33] - Quote
Edit - Merged this thread with an existing thread about Drones and AI changes. ISD Suvetar
I stopped playing EVE Online a little more than a year ago. Since then, on my desktop, I keep a note with a list of the reasons that I quit playing EVE.
At the top of the list is HULKAGEDDON. Nothing else needs to be said. Grind and grind for hours a day for weeks to be able to afford the 200million ISK Hulk, and it is destroyed in a flash by a 2million isk ship! In a supposedly PVP game there is a completely defenseless ship, preyed upon by a large portion of the player-base, and the owner of a destroyed Hulk canGÇÖt even get revenge, because the gankers never log in. I know, I used to keep the gankers on my Watch list, until I realized how futile that was.
However, Hulkageddon was only 1 of the reasons I quit. The other 8 reasons all involve Missions, and the mission system.
Allow me to illustrate with my most recent experience with the mission system since re-subbing this month.
I pick up a mission and fly there in my Navy Megathron. I get to the mission site and begin flying toward a group of enemy rats. This takes time. This time, time spent flying toward enemy rats or structures in a mission, is one of the reasons listed on my GÇ£Why I quit EVEGÇ¥ note. As I attempt to engage the rats, they all GÇ£_____GÇ¥ on me, and in no time at all, IGÇÖm well into Armor. Meanwhile, I havenGÇÖt killed any of the rats because they are all staying well outside my turret range. I have Blasters on my Navy Megathron, and have a range (optimal + falloff) of about 15km. So, I warp out, and decide to get another ship which has guns with a longer range.
I get my Tempest and fly back. It isnGÇÖt long before I am well into armor and I notice that the rats are now staying inside my range, so that I still cannot hit them! Just as I align my ship, two Warp-Scramblers begin jamming my warp. I send my drones after them, but it is all too late. My Tempest is destroyed.
I un-subbed.
Now, the point of my post was to discuss the proposed changes to Rat AI. If indeed such changes have been proposed. I hear this discussed a lot by players, but I really donGÇÖt know if its actually going to be implemented.
As I understand it. Once this change is implemented, Rats will target the largest DPS source, which means they will agro on Drones if drones are the largest or only source of DPS.
I would definitely have had a hard time imagining anything that would make the EVE Online mission system any more nightmarish than it is, however, this particular change, if its true, would definitely make an already nightmarish system even more nightmarish!
Imagine! There you are, in a mission being permanently jammed by Rats with ECM, and they are ripping your HP away at their leisure. You attempt to use your Drones to kill the jammers, but, NO! They target the largest DPS source, make short work of your drones, and they go back to perma-jamming your ship!
What about all those other mission situations? When the Rats are staying outside or inside your Turret range, and you attempt to use drones to compensateGǪnot any moreGǪ since your guns are doing nothing but missing, the Rats will now target the largest DPS source, and of course make short work of your Drones.
I donGÇÖt want to over-analyze, however, this is probably how the mission system became such a nightmare in the first place. Instead of looking at the whole, the Devs changed a small part at a time, the changes seemed logical at the time, after all, Why would Rats fly at your shipGÇÖs optimal range??? Why would Rats target a ship that isnGÇÖt doing any damage??? The result being a nightmarish monstrosity thatGÇÖs even worse than being griefed and bullied by other players.
Of course, I think the DEVs should stop and look at the whole for a change. Is this a good system? Are players having fun with this system? Would anyone imitate or recommend this system?
1) The mission system is worse than being griefed. 2) Flying 100km toward a group of enemies than back another 150km toward another group, consumes vast amounts of time. Time in which the player is doing absolutely nothing. And becoming bored. 3) Rat AI is already Insane. They stay outside your range, if you chase them, they fly further, and the only recourse you have are drones. 4) Constantly given missions you donGÇÖt want to do. Decline one faction mission, youGÇÖll only be given another one in a few minutes. Meaning the playerGÇÖs play time will either be stopped cold, or heGÇÖs forced to take a mission he doesnGÇÖt want. 5) The mission system is the biggest reason I quit playing EVE. |
Fish Alabel
A Big Enough Lever Numquam Ambulare Solus
6
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Posted - 2012.11.20 21:58:00 -
[34] - Quote
sounds like you really don't know how to adapt |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
678
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Posted - 2012.11.20 21:58:00 -
[35] - Quote
ITT someone who is bad at EVE tells us that he quit because he was bad at EVE. |
Spenser for Hire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2012.11.20 22:00:00 -
[36] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:ITT someone who is bad at EVE tells us that he quit because he was bad at EVE. Indeed. Adapt to Insanity??? Bad at a Bad system???
Before I could be bad, or have failed to adapt, wouldn't the system first have to prove its "sense"??? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10380
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Posted - 2012.11.20 22:03:00 -
[37] - Quote
Spenser for Hire wrote:As I understand it. Once this change is implemented, Rats will target the largest DPS source, which means they will agro on Drones if drones are the largest or only source of DPS. Not quite. They will target whatever is considered the biggest threat at the moment. Damage certainly scores well on that scale, but things like remote reps that makes the enemy unkillable and ewar that makes the poor rats' weapons useless will also raise their ire. You can use these facts to ensure that they are more in a frothing rage about something other than your pitiful drones.
Oh, and yes, of course there will be ships with less armament in a PvP game GÇö they'll just be specialised in a different sort of PvP than the shooting kind.
Quote:Adapt to Insanity??? Bad at a Bad system??? Your poor choice of strategy does not make anything insane or bad. Well, maybe if we go by that old GÇ£do the same thing, expect different resultsGÇ¥ adage. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
KrakizBad
Eve Defence Force Fatal Ascension
1109
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 22:04:00 -
[38] - Quote
Stay unsubbed, you'll be happier. www.minerbumping.com - because your tears are delicious |
Complex Potential
No Fixed Abode Mildly Sober
25
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Posted - 2012.11.20 22:05:00 -
[39] - Quote
Keno Skir wrote:So missions might all get real hard. Sort your lives out and adapt.
If drones are no longer right for the situation, use something that is. Quit complaining about the game not staying an AFK fest. Use your brain and think about how to solve the problem instead of complaining that it's happening.
I and many i know use drones fine against Sleepers who are more dangerous to drones than the new mission rats are likely to be. You literally just have to pay some attention and maybe lose one or two every now and again.
Boo Hoo, man up.
Did you even read my op? It was entirely about discussing methods for adapting to the changes. No complaining.
Instead of skim reading and making sweeping judgments, perhaps you could share your pearls of wisdom with us lesser beings? |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1674
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Posted - 2012.11.20 22:06:00 -
[40] - Quote
Fun fact, lvl 4s were meant to be a group activity. Overskilled players and guides made it too easy to solo. Perhaps you over extended yourself... go back to lvl 3s. |
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Spenser for Hire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2012.11.20 22:06:00 -
[41] - Quote
KrakizBad wrote:Stay unsubbed, you'll be happier. I don't doubt it. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10380
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 22:07:00 -
[42] - Quote
Sellendis wrote:Every time i tested the new AI, the drones got killed....you send drones to 2 frigs orbiting you at 8.5km. Drones get webbed and killed. Cant even recall them in time. Missions with more frigates equals more ships taking one drone primary. Interesting. What were you doing?
Every time I tested the new AI, the drones got a few dings and scratches (that could be repped on the spot), but none of them ever managed to explode.
Complex Potential wrote:Did you even read my op? It was entirely about discussing methods for adapting to the changes. No complaining.
Instead of skim reading and making sweeping judgments, perhaps you could share you pearls of wisdom with us lesser beings? THe answer is fairly simple: ask w-spacers and incursioneers how they do it. Learn what makes the AI tick and exploit it (eg. their hatred for certain remote effects that often overshadows their hatred for receiving damage). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
David Campbell
Riposte.
36
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Posted - 2012.11.20 22:07:00 -
[43] - Quote
Just put "I'm bad at this game" on the top of your list. It will prevent you from having to read the other 20 entries the next time you're planning on re-subbing. |
Spenser for Hire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2012.11.20 22:10:00 -
[44] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Spenser for Hire wrote:As I understand it. Once this change is implemented, Rats will target the largest DPS source, which means they will agro on Drones if drones are the largest or only source of DPS. Not quite. They will target whatever is considered the biggest threat at the moment. Damage certainly scores well on that scale, but things like remote reps that makes the enemy unkillable and ewar that makes the poor rats' weapons useless will also raise their ire. You can use these facts to ensure that they are more in a frothing rage about something other than your pitiful drones. Oh, and yes, of course there will be ships with less armament in a PvP game GÇö they'll just be specialised in a different sort of PvP than the shooting kind. Your poor choice of strategy does not make anything insane or bad. Well, maybe if we go by that old GÇ£do the same thing, expect different resultsGÇ¥ adage. You don't take into account the context of my post. I am not raging about the loss of drones or my tempest, or any other ship, mod or item. |
Xercodo
24th Imperial Crusade Amarr Empire
1442
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Posted - 2012.11.20 22:12:00 -
[45] - Quote
As a missioner myself you sound like you have only ever flown BSes for a month and have under 10 mill SP for doing such things
For you I suggest T2 range ammo for blasters or to use the huge falloff of autocannons. Dont forget to fit a bunch of TEs
Ever heard of a AB or MWD? MWD blaster fit mission ships are pretty awesome, just dont leave it on. Get in their face and turn it off.
Range boat? Primary the small ships first of course. Once they start getting close enough start using drones. If your drones are having issues you clearly need better drone skills, 5 T2 drones with drone interfacing 5 will eat up most frigs pretty quick, the exceptions being the "elite" drones.
The current drone AI is hilariously ********. All they do is aggress you and keep shooting you until either one of you dies and they will sit at the same range all the time. If that NPC is set to orbit at 10km then he essentially uses "orbit at 10km" and just lets F1 do everything from there.
While Hulkageddon itself wasnt a bad thing the cost ratio was and thus CCP fixed that with some HP buffs to mining barges. If you're really paranoid fly a skiff now, it's only marginally less yield than a hulk now. You can still die in a fire to a team of 20 destroyers, but now it'll cost them much more than a single destroyer to do it.
You only gave us 6 total reasons out of 8 and and most of them overlapped with the general reason of "missions system".
Btw did you ever consider that some people don't care about the faction missions? Or that thing used to actually be worse with the occasional random courier mission? The Drake is a Lie |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10380
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 22:14:00 -
[46] - Quote
Spenser for Hire wrote:You don't take into account the context of my post. I am not raging about the loss of drones or my tempest, or any other ship, mod or item. GǪand I made no mention of any such rage either. I just corrected a few things you seem to have gotten wrong.
GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
Spenser for Hire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
22
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 22:18:00 -
[47] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Spenser for Hire wrote:You don't take into account the context of my post. I am not raging about the loss of drones or my tempest, or any other ship, mod or item. GǪand I made no mention of any such rage either. I just corrected a few things you seem to have gotten wrong. You mentioned Rage. And, I appreciate the facts and/or corrections. |
Vertisce Soritenshi
Tactical Vendor of Services and Goods Partners of Industrial Service and Salvage
1844
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 22:19:00 -
[48] - Quote
That just wasn't worth reading... EVE is not about PvP.-á EVE is about the SANDBOX! |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10380
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 22:22:00 -
[49] - Quote
Spenser for Hire wrote:You mentioned Rage. Are you a revamped AI rat? If not, then no, I made no mention of any such rage. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
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ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1093
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 22:24:00 -
[50] - Quote
Hi,
I've just merged two threads on the same topic together here.
Thanks and fly safe. ISD Suvetar,-áCaptain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department We are hiring! |
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James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1314
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Posted - 2012.11.20 22:26:00 -
[51] - Quote
Tippia wrote:Every time I tested the new AI, the drones got a few dings and scratches (that could be repped on the spot), but none of them ever managed to explode. Repped with what? Remote repair modules that use high slots that the majority of ships that use drones in PVE can't spare? |
Some Rando
University of Caille Gallente Federation
104
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Posted - 2012.11.20 22:29:00 -
[52] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:I've just merged two threads on the same topic together here. Are you a wizard?
Also, rolling two QQ threads into one is genius. |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
10380
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 22:33:00 -
[53] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Repped with what? With remote reps that fit into the utility highslots that many of the most popular PvE ships have (and which the dedicated drones ships have oodles of). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
369
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 22:35:00 -
[54] - Quote
ISD Suvetar wrote:Hi,
I've just merged two threads on the same topic together here.
Thanks and fly safe. Nice trick, literally though I was going crazy when the thread I was in disappeared. |
Complex Potential
No Fixed Abode Mildly Sober
25
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Posted - 2012.11.20 22:41:00 -
[55] - Quote
Tyberius Franklin wrote:ISD Suvetar wrote:Hi,
I've just merged two threads on the same topic together here.
Thanks and fly safe. Nice trick, literally though I was going crazy when the thread I was in disappeared.
LoL! I'm glad he told us what he did there. I was thinking there was something in my beer. |
James Amril-Kesh
RAZOR Alliance
1314
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Posted - 2012.11.20 22:46:00 -
[56] - Quote
Tippia wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Repped with what? With remote reps that fit into the utility highslots that many of the most popular PvE ships have (and which the dedicated drones ships have oodles of). So meanwhile the PVE ships that don't have these utility highslots can no longer be used, because their drones will eventually be destroyed as they have no means of repair, and they'll have no means of destroying pointing frigates. |
Dinsdale Pirannha
Pirannha Corp
407
|
Posted - 2012.11.20 23:10:00 -
[57] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Tippia wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Repped with what? With remote reps that fit into the utility highslots that many of the most popular PvE ships have (and which the dedicated drones ships have oodles of). So meanwhile the PVE ships that don't have these utility highslots can no longer be used, because their drones will eventually be destroyed as they have no means of repair, and they'll have no means of destroying pointing frigates.
Why do you even begin to argue with Tippia. That person spouts so much dis-information you will go mad trying to counter.
Just accept that drones are dead as a PvE platform, and that is not going to change, unless there is an unprecedented outcry. Well, not unprecedented, because 18 months ago we saw that happen.
But it won't happen this time because:
1. The leaders in null sec don't need to rat, since they can just skim off the top of the moon income. Hence they won't be organizing any attacks against Jita monuments. 2. Many people just don't use drones. 3. The biggest impact on this is the high sec player, and we know precisely what CCP/CSM thinks of high sec.
The only way this gets reversed is well down the road, if a significant amount of subs drop, and that effect can't be measured for months after the immediate impact. Further, if Dust is successful at cross-over subs into Eve, then the effect in subs can never be measured, and this "enjoyable feature" will remain. |
Spenser for Hire
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
22
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Posted - 2012.11.20 23:16:00 -
[58] - Quote
Spenser for Hire wrote:Edit - Merged this thread with an existing thread about Drones and AI changes. ISD Suvetar In my experience, when a company begins to Police its forums on this level, its a sign of very bad things to come.
*War Djinn jumps ship and begins swimming toward shore.*
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Miss Silv
Garoun Investment Bank Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.11.20 23:53:00 -
[59] - Quote
Jame Jarl Retief wrote:Dinsdale Pirannha wrote:A bleak picture indeed. This change really feels like one giant "frag you" to all drone users. I mean, as is, drones have been virtually unusable in most facets of the game. They're certainly not the most efficient way of doing anything, require more work, have shoddy AI and UI, etc., etc.
Yep, definitely feels like a kick to the crotch to go for something gimped and only truly usable for missioning, just to have that taken away.
CCP, how about drone SP refunds? Just so that we don't have to kid ourselves that they're actually useful. |
Sickburn
State War Academy Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2012.11.21 01:59:00 -
[60] - Quote
Ok let me see if i got this right, the new NPC AI is a joke ? |
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