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Leysritt
The Last Remnant
31
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Posted - 2012.11.27 03:55:00 -
[1] - Quote
And instead encourage fights heavily stacked on one side, aka "ganks"?
Now I realize that losing ships does not help this mentality of pure victory.
From how i see it, most players see fights as meaningless unless it is a victory and that only fools will fight battles where victory is uncertain.
Killboard Efficiency does absolutely little in terms of showing actual player skill and ability.
You can shoot a Titan that is about to die to ***** on a killmail worth 50+ billion and receive that full amount.
Now compared to a player who plays solo and kills 10 frigates for every one he loses.
The player who whores on the titan killmail has a higher efficiency than the solo player who is able to kill much more ships than he loses by his own self.
That should be fixed, a kill should be divided among the number of people who were on the mail instead of giving everyone the full value.
This will not fix the mentality of just pure winning, but it will certainly help.
Also if you massively outnumber your opponent perhaps a multiplier reduction in value for the kill and a multiplier increase in value when you are outnumbered. |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
The Python Cartel.
3729
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Posted - 2012.11.27 04:01:00 -
[2] - Quote
Everybody pays attention to killboards and they totally matter "Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff-á |
Ager Agemo
Saturn Reaper
127
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Posted - 2012.11.27 04:02:00 -
[3] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:Everybody pays attention to killboards and they totally matter
actually sad truth its that yes they do :( |
Leysritt
The Last Remnant
31
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Posted - 2012.11.27 04:03:00 -
[4] - Quote
Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:Everybody pays attention to killboards and they totally matter
Its plays on a compulsive behavior of wanting to look "pro". What looks good having a 99.9% efficiency or a bare 50-60%? |
Surfin's PlunderBunny
The Python Cartel.
3729
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Posted - 2012.11.27 04:13:00 -
[5] - Quote
Everybody knows my PvP prowess so I haven't used a killboard in a long time "Little ginger moron" ~David Hasselhoff-á |
Roll Sizzle Beef
Space Mutiny
1694
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Posted - 2012.11.27 04:20:00 -
[6] - Quote
3ed party sites setting a point system which makes outnumbered players look better while making killwhore groups look worse? Like the pvpers would want their steamroll efficiency to look sub-par using a "fair" site. |
Vixen Soul
Stargate Systems Zombie Ninja Space Bears
11
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Posted - 2012.11.27 04:31:00 -
[7] - Quote
Roll Sizzle Beef wrote:3ed party sites setting a point system which makes outnumbered players look better while making killwhore groups look worse? Like the pvpers would want their steamroll efficiency to look sub-par using a "fair" site.
As a web developer, I will say that any kill board I develop will take this argument into consideration, and make a better measurement of skill. It's not all about how good it makes Pros look because most players in Eve online aren't pros. Like me :) SoulCreative
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Cannibal Kane
Praetorian Cannibals
729
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Posted - 2012.11.27 05:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
It depends.
I use my KillBoard to get jobs and it helps me make isk.
I do loose ships in outnumbered fights so it does not bug that much, if I worried about efficiency I would not have as many kills as I do now. I take chances and most of the time I am lucky enough to scrape through in deep armor or structure.
Hell I have warped away from a couple of fights in my time where the incoming dps was just to much.
However the op is correct. Looking bad on the KB seems to stop people from wanting to PVP. I see that alot, but then again some people are only comfortable going after or engaging people when they are in a group. Nothing wrong with that. Everybody plays the game the way they want to play it. Let it be.
However.... I would love to see KB go., but Potential clients wants to see your KB before they spend the isk. I'm not a Pirate, I'm a Terrorist.
The Crazy Space Poor South African.
*Hair done by LGÇÖOr+¬al, because I'm worth it. |
St Mio
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
994
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Posted - 2012.11.27 05:35:00 -
[9] - Quote
Don't blame killboards, blame people for being risk averse.
Everyone wants to get kills, but no one wants to be the one that dies so that someone can get that kill. |
Christopher AET
Segmentum Solar Intrepid Crossing
275
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Posted - 2012.11.27 05:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
Looking at killboards at face value you often get a bad impression. You need to be able to interpret them. For example that corp with a lot of kills and few losses. Look more closely. Their number 1 dude might be whoring on kills using a bomber 5 regions away and the second place dude may have only killed structures. Learn to read killboards and you get a much better idea.
Nullsec corps tend to have high efficiency. It's part of fighting as a group. So how do you know they are worth recruiting? Look at big fights they have been in. Did they have many people there? Were they in the right ships pulling their weight, or was it one dude in a bomber? Killboards only tell part of a story, they are only the be all and end all if you treat them as such. I drain ducks of their moisture for sustenance. |
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Karn Dulake
Sad Flutes
1027
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Posted - 2012.11.27 23:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
Killboards are the worst thing in EVE
But the only thing that people have to go on when accepting PvP players I dont normally troll, but when i do i do it on General Discussion. |
Karrl Tian
Yarrbusters
42
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Posted - 2012.11.27 23:44:00 -
[12] - Quote
Killboards are the closest thing EVE has to a WoW factor. The people who ***** up KB efficiency might as well be Paladins in arena gear. |
Wacktopia
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
292
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Posted - 2012.11.27 23:55:00 -
[13] - Quote
Killboards only matter when they matter to you, your corp or alliance. The bottom line is that now I have one of those annoying signatures. |
God's Apples
The Tuskers
26
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Posted - 2012.11.28 00:01:00 -
[14] - Quote
You shouldn't just be using isk efficiency genius. Battleclinic's point system is in place so that even if you get a kill and all the isk when 500 people are on the mail, you get very few points and that determines your rank. Usually just looking at someone's number of kills vs losses vs rank you can determine how good they actually are. Someone who has a very high rank will mean they either kill mission runners and noobs all day in a rookie ship or are very skilled solo and small PvP and I can trust that they will give me a ~gudfite~ |
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
259
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Posted - 2012.11.28 00:02:00 -
[15] - Quote
People who value killboard numbers over the social group they've formed in EVE are playing the game wrong and potentially making themselves miserable for something pointless. npc alts aren't people |
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
810
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Posted - 2012.11.28 00:52:00 -
[16] - Quote
Anyone who cares about KB's alot is best avoided. "It's no use crying over spilt milk, because all the forces of the universe were bent on spilling it." ~William Maugham |
Mirima Thurander
Estrada Dynamics - Exploration and Acquisition
419
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Posted - 2012.11.28 01:03:00 -
[17] - Quote
Killboreds only matter to the same type of people that think there cod stats make them cool. A Dark time comes. A time of terror comes. My time. If it offends you. Stop me. |
Skydell
Space Mermaids Somethin Awfull Forums
345
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Posted - 2012.11.28 01:05:00 -
[18] - Quote
St Mio wrote:Don't blame killboards, blame people for being risk averse.
Everyone wants to get kills, but no one wants to be the one that dies so that someone can get that kill.
Actually I don't agree. In the few years I spent in Null I never fit a scrambler. For every ship I lost, 10 ran away but the thing was, they always came back and they usually brought friends. I didn't care if I got the holy kill mail but I found people were relentless in making me one. It gets to a point where you are spending all of your time beating off the kill junkies and it just wears on you. |
Yusef Yeasef Yosef
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
5
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Posted - 2012.11.28 02:40:00 -
[19] - Quote
Eve would have been far better without killmails for killboards and the game play that revolves around them. (Shoot anything that moves just for kills, and not for actual reasons) The unknown factor would have made things more interesting smack talk wise.
But, the FPS-ishy players in Eve wouldn't live without them, so oh well.
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NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
46
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Posted - 2012.11.28 04:03:00 -
[20] - Quote
Easy solution add ships lost to npcs to the api. Now sucicde ganks reflect poorly on the ganker. |
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Holy One
299
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Posted - 2012.11.28 05:06:00 -
[21] - Quote
KB stats do show lots of very useful things and say a lot about you. They most certainly are an indication of your ability.
They can show amongst other things: your ability to adapt, to research, to manage risk, to experiment, to choose targets, to understand the role and optimum application of each hull and to respond to criticism. They also reveal a lot about your personality. Namely: do you like to stalk prey like a hunter, or are you lazy? Do you like low sec, null sec, or both. Are you in to station games or do you shun that stuff. Do you show versatility, or specialization. Do you prefer particular kinds of tank/gank, do you rely on falcon, do you enjoy scenarios where you have a good chance of not winning (I personally only enjoy these kinds of fights nowdays), do you like to bait and overwhelm, do you use alts/links/rr etc etc etc. Are there 300 other dudes and a bubble on every mail? Do you like speed, or durability. Do you fly beyond your ability in isk terms, can you be provoked blah blah blah.
On the issue of efficiency its pretty simple really: if you have <90% you are throwing too much isk in to too few victories and should probably re-think your playstyle. I got 1800 kills in the last year or so and never dipped below 90% on my chars; a success rate of ~8:1 or better and some fiscal prudence will see you fine in that department. Make no mistake I also flew some ******* awful fits and killed a lot of pods as well and compared to some space-heros, I am bloody terrible at this game.
If you are just starting out, losing is fine, losing a lot is even encouraged. If I don't see a lot of early cheap frigate losses on your kb I know you're an alt or a 0.0 f1 masher. Which is also fine btw.
Sadly, also, these days, most pvp chars end up changing hands so kb's are becoming increasingly conflicted and inconsistent and less useful as a guide anwyay .. except to tell us that the ex genos, ex pl dude who just lost a ratting carrier in venal is probably not the original owner. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1801
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Posted - 2012.11.28 08:31:00 -
[22] - Quote
I wish I was like some one who lost a Merlin and a Rifter on their first week, but got on a titan killmail with one of those ships. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
Eugene Kerner
TunDraGon
211
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Posted - 2012.11.28 08:39:00 -
[23] - Quote
A loss shows me that I made a mistake somewhere during the process of getting killed. The Killboard lists the opponents and also makes it possible to do a little analyse afterwards to either mitigate my deficits or minimize the possibility a loss under the same circumstances. The rest is calculated risk (like flying pvp in High Grade implants...). For competitive players a k/d ratio is always important in some way. It does not matter if it is in a shooter like bf3, a rank list in wow pvp or the killboards in Eve. At least you should try to have more kills than deaths ;-)
"Also, your boobs " -á CCP Eterne, 2012
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Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
184
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Posted - 2012.11.28 11:12:00 -
[24] - Quote
NEONOVUS wrote:Easy solution add ships lost to npcs to the api. Now sucicde ganks reflect poorly on the ganker.
A long time back (a couple years or so ago), a nullsec alliance set up a new killboard and used auto-feeds from the API but forgot to block out NPC losses. I happened to catch a look at the KB while it was running that way and almost lost it laughing at how many ships were lost ratting and the like.
The large amount of PvE based losses to NPC's is a hidden number, just like the gankers that get it from CONCORD. It's why at one point, it was suggested that CCP publish a KB for just the NPC factions -- that showed the player losses to NPC groups. I imagine some of those NPC groups would exceed the KB stats for even the busiest player groups in this game.
As for the current KB's -- around 3 years ago I was involved as a scout. KB shows absolutely nothing about PvP activity yet I was one who helped enable action. There are a few such roles that rarely show on KB's so only losses show up vs their actual participation in such efforts. Actual scouts for fleets seem to have gotten a bit thin lately vs alts being run by fleet members but it wasn't always that way.
I stopped being a scout when I lost a crew due to lack of attention to local changes (spike). Sitting there cloaked while the crew I was watching for got cut up... "Sorry..." - "No big. It happens..." etc. That didn't mean too much to me vs my fubar that got them all popped so I stopped doing it .
These days, I only get involved if it looks like a tough fight. Then I'll hop over and climb in a ship to help fight. If it doesn't look like a real threat, it's not something I'll get involved with. Simply put, if I"m going to fight, I like it to at least *LOOK* like a real threat and there are very few of those these days -- which seems to be how most PvP players like it... Low risk with high KB values showing. They like to win; not fight.
Translation: "risk aversion" has dink to do with it. I really don't care if I lose most of the ships I have scattered around... I can get more easily enough and the boards aren't something I watch.
Mostly I find little value to watching them but others... That's their measuring stick. They don't seem to know how to evaluate anything without KB stats.
The comments about "learning from KB's" - intel wise for planning fights... they can help but beyond that, not really.
It shows who popped you and what you lost, not how they were fit, etc. So the "value" is generally the isk number and quantity/types of ships blown up. Woopie... So 20 ships popped 2 in a 20 vs 2 fight. Win? Not what I'd call a major achievement. Lost? So 20 ships beat 2 - this is a surprise? ...
Each to their own, different ways of looking at things, etc. So some folks like the boards more than others. That's been happening for quite some time. |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
729
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Posted - 2012.11.28 11:51:00 -
[25] - Quote
Any killboard has to be taken with a pinch of salt because as you pointed out, they are inherently flawed. However they are the only objective metric you can use to judge a player's ability or even if that person is telling the truth. "Yeah I'm a PvPer but I haven't killed anything in the past 3 years".
A killboard can show you if that person has flown ships in combat or not. It can tell you, through losses, if that person has a clue on how to fit ships, or not. It can tell you if that person fights alone, in small groups, or in large blobs. It can tell you if all that person does is grind structures or pop cyno alts. And it can also tell you who that person has been flying with.
However reading more into them than that is a bit of a stretch.
As for killboards affecting fighting style, I think that the consequence of losing your ship far, far outweighs any killboard. No one likes to lose, killboard or not. |
Spurty
V0LTA Verge of Collapse
582
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Posted - 2012.11.28 12:04:00 -
[26] - Quote
Kill boards are many things to many people:
- a snapshot / record of an event - individual / corp / alliance performance profiler - kill / death ratio recorder - ISK kill / loss ratio recorder - data mine of good and bad fits
Sadly most people dwell on the ISK side. That's sad Because that 50 mill ISK loss can hurt more to a poor player with no revenue streams than a 5bill loss to someone with tons of revenue streams.
Far sooner see more tools developed to replay battles as videos than as line items in an audit.
--- I used to be indecisive but now I am not quite sure. |
Mohamad Transporte
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet Yulai Federation
18
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Posted - 2012.11.28 14:34:00 -
[27] - Quote
KB ratios are indicators.. not a goal (so yes and .. no) |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
314
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Posted - 2012.11.28 15:30:00 -
[28] - Quote
killboard efficiency does play a part,
but it's rather the avoidance of "pointless losses" that prevent people from engaging on a ground where the battle is not at least equal. Many times a potential fight will guarantee losses, and fleets want to create a possibility of having no losses in a (essentially) fair fight or a fight stacked in their favour. Players don't like logistics and on a small scale (which is what i think think you are speaking about) needless losses sometimes end up causing a fleet to break up for the day. Might as well look for a better situation if it means a fleet will be maintained. |
Riot Girl
RADIO RAMPAGE Initiative Mercenaries
506
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Posted - 2012.11.28 18:32:00 -
[29] - Quote
Leysritt wrote:Surfin's PlunderBunny wrote:Everybody pays attention to killboards and they totally matter Its plays on a compulsive behavior of wanting to look "pro". What looks good having a 99.9% efficiency or a bare 50-60%?
50-60% efficiency looks better when the pilot has many kill and loss mails from solo fights against small gangs.
99% efficiency for a pilot who has 500b isk of kills against SBUs is totally lame.
I know which one I'd rather have on my side.
Oh god. |
Ptraci
3 R Corporation The Irukandji
729
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Posted - 2012.11.28 23:59:00 -
[30] - Quote
Riot Girl wrote:
99% efficiency for a pilot who has 500b isk of kills against SBUs is totally lame.
I know which one I'd rather have on my side.
The SBU killer, cos dread pilots just rock, amirite? lol |
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