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Jerick Ludhowe
The Nyan Cat Pirates Nyanpire
232
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Posted - 2012.12.11 18:07:00 -
[31] - Quote
Panhead4411 wrote:The funny thing is, the very same arguments for CCP deciding against a Torp Naga are the exact same things being said of the Talos. 1,800dps Talos is pretty facemelt. And even then, a Torp Naga would not have even approached that (and only one LARGE targets at that)...RIP Torp Naga.
Torp naga was not OP, torp naga was bad. This is the reason ccp changed it to an all gun ship... Believe it or not but a shield tanked blaster naga is allot better than the baddies on these forums think it is.
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Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
276
|
Posted - 2012.12.11 18:56:00 -
[32] - Quote
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:Panhead4411 wrote:The funny thing is, the very same arguments for CCP deciding against a Torp Naga are the exact same things being said of the Talos. 1,800dps Talos is pretty facemelt. And even then, a Torp Naga would not have even approached that (and only one LARGE targets at that)...RIP Torp Naga. Torp naga was not OP, torp naga was bad. This is the reason ccp changed it to an all gun ship... Believe it or not but a shield tanked blaster naga is allot better than the baddies on these forums think it is.
Torp naga with the recent missile changes would be ******* boss.. |
Jerick Ludhowe
The Nyan Cat Pirates Nyanpire
232
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Posted - 2012.12.11 19:02:00 -
[33] - Quote
Garviel Tarrant wrote:
Torp naga with the recent missile changes would be ******* boss..
Now this is quite true.
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Denuo Secus
75
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Posted - 2012.12.11 23:04:00 -
[34] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Denuo Secus wrote:Vaga eats frigs, Talos dies to frigs. So, what was the issue again? ^^ Talos has the same tracking as the vagabond, and 5 light drones. More EHP and DPS too. So either they both suck at killing frigs or they both rock?
Troll post? If not:
- Vaga with 425mms and Phased Plasma tracks 0.132 rad/s. With Barrage it tracks 0.099 rad/s. In worst case a Vaga could load Dep. Uranium and would have a tracking of 0.158 rad/s.
- a Neutron Talos tracks 0.089 rad/s with Antimatter and 0.067 rad/s when using Null.
- all without even counting in sig resolution of med vs. large turrets.
- Vaga has the same drone bay as the Talos. In addition the Vaga could fit neuts or rapid launchers without gimping it's main DPS (to fight equally sized targets).
- more DPS is useless when not applicable.
- more EHP only means dying a longer death (in this case). |
Isabelle Humphrey
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2012.12.11 23:17:00 -
[35] - Quote
Frankly if the frigate manages to tackle you, you're toast, if not, you can kill it with some fancy flying to drop transversal in pretty much anything. |
Noisrevbus
312
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Posted - 2012.12.11 23:30:00 -
[36] - Quote
I don't know Denuo... you should look at the larger picture.
All those statements can be turned around: eg., more dps is useful when you can apply it, etc.
The discussion isn't really how much better Tier 3 BC are than HAC.
The discussion is that they are better or even comparable (at all) at basicly a free price (especially considering how the BS-turrets come with the quite nifty option of performing well even with lower meta modules).
It's the same discussion we can hold regarding Tier 2 BC when compared to HAC.
I've noted it on several occassions: It's not like Tier 2 BC were much better than HAC prior to Crucible. Most things they did where the two classes converged, the BC performed just under the HAC. The actual balance was alright. The problem was that the BC didn't cost 1/2 the price of a HAC (or w/e), but closer to 1/10. HACs would beat most BC in a levelled engagement, but taking the risk against ships that give little reward wasn't very appealing to most.
Additionally, when there were larger gangs around, they could be twice as many, and you still risked more in the ship-ship performance the discouragement all of a sudden became unsurmountable. You fought against numerical odds spurred on by cost-effect, and the cost-effect itself. It always had little to do with the actual ships and their balance; when utilizing their actual bonuses all the HAC would beat their equivalent BC - assuming relatively leveled gangs. The cost disparity just either deleveled the gangs and/or made the pointless to fight with HAC based on risk-reward. |
Denuo Secus
75
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Posted - 2012.12.12 01:03:00 -
[37] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote:I don't know Denuo... you should look at the larger picture.
All those statements can be turned around: eg., more dps is useful when you can apply it, etc.
The Talos is incredibly powerful inbetween it's relative speed, reach, damage and effective application of damage. Don't forget that being fast is a very strong advantage when using turrets. A slower ship can track alot better but still effectively track worse. What the Talos do is not tracking better than a Vaga, but tracking very well relative it's speed, reach and damage volume; and it's ability to further exploit that from things like Links or webs from friendly support. It works on the same principles that made Vaga so good against frigates.
Basicly, it can kill Vagas like Vagas kill Frigates - with good piloting and support it deals well enough with Frigates too.
The discussion isn't really how much better Tier 3 BC are than HAC anyway.
The discussion is that they are better or even comparable (at all) at basicly a free price (especially considering how the BS-turrets come with the quite nifty option of performing well even with lower meta modules).
It's the same discussion we can hold regarding Tier 2 BC when compared to HAC.
I've noted it on several occassions: It's not like Tier 2 BC were much better than HAC prior to Crucible. Most things they did where the two classes converged, the BC performed just under the HAC. The actual balance was alright. The problem was that the BC didn't cost 1/2 the price of a HAC (or w/e), but closer to 1/10 and with that had a replacement pricetag similar to Cruisers and something most pilots can chump-change within an hour (ie., nothing). HACs would beat most BC in a levelled engagement, but taking the risk against ships that give little reward wasn't very appealing to most.
Additionally, when there were larger gangs around, they could be twice as many, and you still risked more in the ship-ship performance the discouragement all of a sudden became unsurmountable. You fought against numerical odds spurred on by cost-effect, and the cost-effect itself. It always had little to do with the actual ships and their balance; when utilizing their actual bonuses all the HAC would beat their equivalent BC - assuming relatively leveled gangs. The cost disparity just either deleveled the gangs and/or made them pointless to fight with HAC based on risk-reward.
None of the issues with HAC popularity, alone, is responsible for the demise - but rather how they pile on.
Granted, at the moment many HACs are overshadowed a bit by tier3 BCs. But CCP already stated they want to reduce the mobility of all tier3 BCs. In addition tech2 ships aren't rebalanced yet. At the end I could imagine both classes (while still overlapping a bit) have their own role. Tier3 BCs are a hammer while HACs can be a scalpel.
Having said that, I think even now a Vaga is more flexible compared to the Talos. I see it from a solo PvP perspective. With better speed, tracking and utility the Vaga can come out top in much more difficult situations. When fighting outnumbered it becomes difficult quite often (which isn't a bad thing imo ^^). The Talos offers more raw power but less finesse and margin of error. |
Byzan Zwyth
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2012.12.12 01:56:00 -
[38] - Quote
ok maybe I'm wrong if so pelase correct me.
How is the Talos faster than a vaga? it's clearly not!!!? Even fit a nano II on the Talos and it's still slower?
it also has less defense due to lower resists and larger signature and less EHP/buffer.
And while the Talos does more damage it has less tracking and range (blasters vs. AC's)
the way I see it, talos has more damage, vaga wins pretty much all other aspects. What am I missing?
I'd say in contact where DPS is king the Talos is better but the Vaga still has more versatility. |
Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
157
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Posted - 2012.12.12 05:25:00 -
[39] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote:
Basicly, it can kill Vagas like Vagas kill Frigates - with good piloting and support it deals well enough with Frigates too.
.
Competent vagabond pilot should kill a competent talos pilot. |
Fon Revedhort
Monks of War
857
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 05:56:00 -
[40] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote: The discussion isn't really how much better Tier 3 BC are than HAC anyway.
The discussion is that they are better or even comparable (at all) at basicly a free price (especially considering how the BS-turrets come with the quite nifty option of performing well even with lower meta modules).
It's the same discussion we can hold regarding Tier 2 BC when compared to HAC.
Exactly. The same applies to command ships. They are not good enough for their price. And yes, price is a balancing factor, the only thing we should never forget is that it's a somewhat limited factor, but it is still there, otherwise the very existence of modules of metalevel above 5 would be moot. Sometimes price vs performance is utterly broken and in that case we get something like titans. 14 |
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2363
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Posted - 2012.12.12 07:49:00 -
[41] - Quote
Why SoMad wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Fon Revedhort wrote:Yeah, releasing stuff in pre-boosted mode (tier3, tech3, titans etc.) is plain silly. Even the pre-nerfed way is better, because at least it doesn't make other stuff obsolete. I can't really think of anything that the Talos obsoletes. If it's anything, it's the Brutix... but the Vagabond? LOL. -Liang Brutix? ROFL lrnships.
The Talos has nothing to do with the Brutix being obsolete. The Myrmidon does that just fine on its own. Lrn2ships.
-Liang
Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2363
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 07:50:00 -
[42] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Denuo Secus wrote:Vaga eats frigs, Talos dies to frigs. So, what was the issue again? ^^ Talos has the same tracking as the vagabond, and 5 light drones. More EHP and DPS too. So either they both suck at killing frigs or they both rock?
The Talos has many times worse tracking than the Vagabond, because the "tracking number" is only one element of the equation. Don't forget that the Talos has battleship guns to the Vagabond's cruiser guns.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2363
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 08:03:00 -
[43] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote: The discussion isn't really how much better Tier 3 BC are than HAC anyway.
The discussion is that they are better or even comparable (at all) at basicly a free price (especially considering how the BS-turrets come with the quite nifty option of performing well even with lower meta modules).
It's the same discussion we can hold regarding Tier 2 BC when compared to HAC.
I don't really agree. The Vagabond is flat superior to the Talos for small scale roaming gangs - and the Cynabal even more superior. The Talos is alright but you really are flying a pretty expensive glass cannon. The hull may come "free" (it doesn't) but the mods to fit on it certainly don't. The cost of fitting a Tier 3 BC is significantly higher than a Tier 2 BC and it's not the same discussion at all.
That isn't to say that there aren't problems with HACs, but I think comparisons between the Vagabond and the Talos are just outright laughable.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Mr Yarrr
Black Rise Angels
0
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Posted - 2012.12.12 11:25:00 -
[44] - Quote
All the t3 BCs will get nerfed, their mobility is a joke,
They match cruisers for speed and maneuverability, yet they should have a size and mass in line with BCs
They switched armour and shield for the infrastructure needed to fit big guns, that infrastructure should come with the same mass penalties as the equivalent armour; otherwise why not just stick some extra armour back on top and you'd have t2 BC with BS guns. |
Noisrevbus
314
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Posted - 2012.12.12 16:31:00 -
[45] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: I don't really agree. The Vagabond is flat superior to the Talos for small scale roaming gangs - and the Cynabal even more superior. The Talos is alright but you really are flying a pretty expensive glass cannon. The hull may come "free" (it doesn't) but the mods to fit on it certainly don't. The cost of fitting a Tier 3 BC is significantly higher than a Tier 2 BC and it's not the same discussion at all.
That isn't to say that there aren't problems with HACs, but I think comparisons between the Vagabond and the Talos are just outright laughable.
-Liang
It depends on how you define "small scale roaming". The key marker that define and differentiate a good roaming group is that they "up-engage" (same as most other groups). That doesn't mean they limit themselves to any specifics, rather, the other way around: they have a broader engagement-envelope, that involve up-engagement. They fight more things.
If you look at many competent small-scale roaming groups (and here we can define small scale as squad-sized gangs), they have predominantly changed over to Talos for broad use. The Vagabond may still see some use, and have not lost all niche, but the Talos have overtaken many roles. The role of the Vagabond has successively been limited more and more to what it does best, notably, ganking frigates. It has recieved a smaller engagement-envelope.
That goes back to the point i argued regarding HAC overall. Prior to Crucible: BC were still very much within the HAC engagement envelope, now that is challenged (in part due to the introduction of new BC-countering ships, or ships for roles that involved countering BC-roles; amusingly enough, much of that introduction in turn was the introduction of new BC that shared problematism with the other BC and that has lead us to today with the new Cruisers etc).
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Maeltstome
The Burning Red
142
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Posted - 2012.12.12 17:05:00 -
[46] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote:Denuo Secus wrote:Vaga eats frigs, Talos dies to frigs. So, what was the issue again? ^^ Talos has the same tracking as the vagabond, and 5 light drones. More EHP and DPS too. So either they both suck at killing frigs or they both rock? The Talos has many times worse tracking than the Vagabond, because the "tracking number" is only one element of the equation. Don't forget that the Talos has battleship guns to the Vagabond's cruiser guns. -Liang
How many frigs that threaten you aren't using an MWD? I know sig is factor, but once that bloom goes up... at 20km you start volleying them. |
Bouh Revetoile
Barricade.
187
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Posted - 2012.12.12 18:20:00 -
[47] - Quote
When you have so many ships, and you need a niche for each one of them, then tthe niches are rather small.
Oh, and even with MWD bloom, a frigate is way under large gun resolution (attack frigate are at 200 with MWD on). The threat come from the drones, not the blasters, even though there is a danger zone at 20 to 30km. |
Aestivalis Saidrian
SplitPush Mercantiles
34
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Posted - 2012.12.12 19:18:00 -
[48] - Quote
Honestly, if I were to fly a roaming Talos, It'd be dualweb Armor fit. You can fit whatthehell buffer tanks on a Talos if you're willing to "Downgrade" to Ions. And still fit the MWD to go zoom. |
Torothin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
210
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 19:31:00 -
[49] - Quote
For the sake of the argument, having the DPS that it has is one thing. But having the mobility and the tracking to go along with it is just complete crap. The vagabond used to be the kindgof hit and run small gang pvp. Get in get out and use speed and mobility to your advantage while packing a punch.
It was its bread and butter. Now the Talos does all those things but is just a tad less mobile but has the DPS and the tracking to make up for it. It's just way too mobile. Oh yeah, it's cheaper too and has a good insurance pay out..... I mean come on! |
Roger Dew
Simply Enterprises
5
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Posted - 2012.12.12 19:51:00 -
[50] - Quote
So what a lot of nerds here are saying:
"If a good pilot in a kiting ship starts to kite me, I should be able to catch them by pressing approach and spamming F2."
That's basically what I'm reading.
The Talos is a fantastic roaming ship, because most people in Eve that camp gates and roam are scrubs. You kite them and it doesn't take long to melt them with the mega-deeps. The downside of which is that all it takes is 1 scram and you're pretty much doomed. If a BC even gets transversal at close range on you then tracking will become an issue.
The kite Vaga was always a piece of ****, it has no capacitor to support long MWD usage which is generally what you're doing when kiting and was rediculous to fit with a medium neut (which you really want in a 200m kiting ship). For this reason the Cynabal with it's superior mobility and dps was always superior (if you say a nano Talos can come close to a Cyna or even a Vaga for mobility then you're mental). |
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Naomi Knight
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
200
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Posted - 2012.12.12 20:09:00 -
[51] - Quote
When matar is not isnta win then come the whinematards... |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2365
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 20:35:00 -
[52] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote:Denuo Secus wrote:Vaga eats frigs, Talos dies to frigs. So, what was the issue again? ^^ Talos has the same tracking as the vagabond, and 5 light drones. More EHP and DPS too. So either they both suck at killing frigs or they both rock? The Talos has many times worse tracking than the Vagabond, because the "tracking number" is only one element of the equation. Don't forget that the Talos has battleship guns to the Vagabond's cruiser guns. -Liang How many frigs that threaten you aren't using an MWD? I know sig is factor, but once that bloom goes up... at 20km you start volleying them.
Two things: - This affects the Vagabond and Talos equally. - I have historically had terrible experience volleying frigs at 20km unless they're flying straight at me.
The Vagabond has many times better tracking than the Talos, and the more you bullshit about it the less credibility you have.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2365
|
Posted - 2012.12.12 20:40:00 -
[53] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote: It depends on how you define "small scale roaming". The key marker that define and differentiate a good roaming group is that they "up-engage" (same as most other groups). That doesn't mean they limit themselves to any specifics, rather, the other way around: they have a broader engagement-envelope, that involve up-engagement. They fight more things.
If you look at many competent small-scale roaming groups (and here we can define small scale as squad-sized gangs), they have predominantly changed over to Talos for broad use. The Vagabond may still see some use, and have not lost all niche, but the Talos have overtaken many roles. The role of the Vagabond has successively been limited more and more to what it does best, notably, ganking frigates. It has recieved a smaller engagement-envelope.
Your entire post is hell bent on accusing the Talos of taking away the Vagabond's role. That's bullshit and we both know it. Not seeing Vagabonds has **** all to do with the Talos and everything to do with the Cynabal - and we still see Cynabals by the ******* truckload.
At this point you're just making bullshit up and forum warrioring with an agenda. Come on man. You're better than this.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Hemmo Paskiainen
Aliastra Gallente Federation
374
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Posted - 2012.12.12 20:56:00 -
[54] - Quote
Jack Miton wrote:Say it with me:
CCP. Are. Working. On. Balancing. ALL. The. Sh*t.
finlay getting time, waiting 4 yrs allready on my black op buff CCP FIX BLACK OPS FFS
[url]http://img232.imageshack.us/img232/9679/whatihavedoneineve.jpg[/url] |
Noisrevbus
314
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Posted - 2012.12.12 22:21:00 -
[55] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote: Your entire post is hell bent on accusing the Talos of taking away the Vagabond's role. That's bullshit and we both know it. Not seeing Vagabonds has **** all to do with the Talos and everything to do with the Cynabal - and we still see Cynabals by the ******* truckload.
At this point you're just making bullshit up and forum warrioring with an agenda. Come on man. You're better than this.
-Liang
Quite the amount of censored words there, unbecomming .
When talking dynamics i tend to tar those two ships with the same brush, so Cynabals whizzing on Vaga-land is a whole other discussion.
To put it as short as i can:
It ties into the discussion other people have regarding accuracy here. The Talos can miss twice the amount of shots and still maintain the same damage as a Vaga outside the range of the frigates' secondary tackle (which none of these ships want to be inside).
The second you have any sort of support around your ships the advantages of the Vaga, the excess tracking and speed, become limited. Apply a single web to any ship in the game and it will affect both those levels: accuracy and positioning, which further affect tracking (no bowed approach available when transversal drops). It hits the frigates well enough, and everything else better.
The speed relative the tracking mechanics and the dynamics of it's weapon system is that great.
The only time you utilize the excess tracking and speed is when you limit your target pool to match that; you need it because you are not properly supported, and whatever you encounter can not either be supported (since the Vaga is not equipped to deal with that support, while the Talos is - and the Vaga take a larger financial risk when you encounter those well-supported gangs, that are pretty common if you roam around and attempt to engage varieties).
This limit your target pool to a small slice of the small-slice or the cretins that fly completely unsupported in numbers.
At the same time we shouldn't spit too much at the Vaga, because that is the appeal it still has: slim pickings (run and gank, as opposed to gank and run, or gank and regroup). It's just that it isn't very good at disengagement anymore, even though admittedly better than the Talos at not getting caught in the first place. That's useful for penetrating into territory, but the envelope is nonetheless smaller.
Small scale roaming, at least in my book, is about creating good-fight scenarios by attempting to take fights served (interaction). |
Noisrevbus
314
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Posted - 2012.12.12 23:37:00 -
[56] - Quote
I'm really just waxing anecdotes here now, but another quite amusing example of all this is looking at what DID trend in the Vagas place. Once again i'm going to use the loaded term "the good groups", but it's there for a reason. Not to put someone else down, but to point to fore-runners of trends.
After the faction-changes, several of the old roaming groups simply replaced the Vaga with Drams instead. Similar trends began peaking up a little bit with the AF and Oneiros change as well (look at PL for example). That too is somewhat limited against the speedy blap of Tier 3 BC, but was fairly effective against the BS and Drake blob paradigm in 2010/11, and the ideal it rested upon was a small part of re-populizing the Hurricane.
The concept built around the ability to sustain BS+HML damage even when under basic secondary tackle (similar to AB Tech III), forcing Cruiser-sized blap to become effective against it. The engagement envelope of such gangs is definately smaller than older HAC-gangs as well, but it rested upon similar principles and application; potentially killing support under superior fire and disengaging, which gave them engageability by having staying power on the grid without forced commitment similar to DP HACs but tactically closer to old nano (with DP Frigates, Logis and the odd cloaky DP/100mn support in EW roles).
It hasn't really hit home because of the re-profileration of offensive (cruiser-) turrets (insta-canes, the new cruisers, blapping talos, ahac-remnants etc); but it's definately something i'd recommend people to try out against larger mainline fleets because you can deal quite well with the odd BS-turret and Missile, where that still remain (mael, rokh, baddon, drake, tengu, bombers etc., where the support is not greater than your gang total). |
Maeltstome
The Burning Red
142
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 00:08:00 -
[57] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote:Denuo Secus wrote:Vaga eats frigs, Talos dies to frigs. So, what was the issue again? ^^ Talos has the same tracking as the vagabond, and 5 light drones. More EHP and DPS too. So either they both suck at killing frigs or they both rock? The Talos has many times worse tracking than the Vagabond, because the "tracking number" is only one element of the equation. Don't forget that the Talos has battleship guns to the Vagabond's cruiser guns. -Liang How many frigs that threaten you aren't using an MWD? I know sig is factor, but once that bloom goes up... at 20km you start volleying them. Two things: - This affects the Vagabond and Talos equally. - I have historically had terrible experience volleying frigs at 20km unless they're flying straight at me. The Vagabond has many times better tracking than the Talos, and the more you bullshit about it the less credibility you have. -Liang
You have video's of yourself ina Talos shredding frigs.
I'm not claiming the talos is BETTER at killing frigs, im saying it can do it and do it reliably when flown well. Realistically though, it still 5 light drones and the ability to fit a decent shield buffer/xl-ASB so that's where you start thinking it's got the edge on the vaga.
Also, good luck killing a drake in a vaga - the option in a talos to fit void and flay a target if you know you can do it is the ultimate selling point. I've been out many times in a vagabond and found targets that i know i cannot take down due to it's limitations... i don't feel that way with the talos.
And only in situations where i jump into a gate camp do i think "****, vaga could out-run this maybe" Then i remember its cost me half the price and is insurable and care a whole lot less.
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2365
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 00:43:00 -
[58] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: You have video's of yourself ina Talos shredding frigs.
I'm not claiming the talos is BETTER at killing frigs, im saying it can do it and do it reliably when flown well. Realistically though, it still 5 light drones and the ability to fit a decent shield buffer/xl-ASB so that's where you start thinking it's got the edge on the vaga.
Also, good luck killing a drake in a vaga - the option in a talos to fit void and flay a target if you know you can do it is the ultimate selling point. I've been out many times in a vagabond and found targets that i know i cannot take down due to it's limitations... i don't feel that way with the talos.
And only in situations where i jump into a gate camp do i think "****, vaga could out-run this maybe" Then i remember its cost me half the price and is insurable and care a whole lot less.
I wouldn't call it shredding frigs and the fact you're citing that video illustrates how little of it you understood. Go watch it again - I spend an enormous amount of time doing two things: - Shooting from 40km+ - Making people fly directly towards me.
The Vagabond tracks many many times better than the Talos - it's just a fact. It kills frigs far more reliably, and in many ways it's just a flat superior ship. The ability for the Talos to "load void and flay a target" - especially in the kind of fit I was flying - is utterly ridiculous. Have you even flown the ship or are you just complaining? Because it damn sure doesn't fly like you think it does.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2365
|
Posted - 2012.12.13 00:51:00 -
[59] - Quote
Noisrevbus wrote:Quite the amount of censored words there, unbecomming .
Jesus ******* Christ, have you ******* met me? Have any of my posts ever been not full of stars?
Quote: When talking dynamics i tend to tar those two ships with the same brush, so Cynabals whizzing on Vaga-land is a whole other discussion.
Saying that the Talos is in the same league as the Cynabal with a straight face. Either you're getting old and senile or you're massively trolling. It's really that simple.
Quote: The second you have any sort of support around your ships the advantages of the Vaga, the excess tracking and speed, become limited. Apply a single web to any ship in the game and it will affect both those levels: accuracy and positioning, which further affect tracking (no bowed approach available when transversal drops). It hits the frigates well enough, and everything else better. The speed relative the tracking mechanics and the dynamics of it's weapon system is that great: how fast is a webbed Frigate? How fast is a free Talos? How many Talos does it take to volley a Frigate void of transversal? It doesn't matter if you web the Talos back unless your gang volley them like they volley you*; because they will just cycle through you and cut loose - and stand a better chance going offensive to blitz Recon too (at lower risk).
So what I got out of this is that when you ignore all the inconvenient mechanics the "raw deeps" number looks pretty attractive. The simple fact of the matter is that the Talos isn't even the ship you want to be complaining about here. There are lots of ships that project damage better than the Talos if you want to start just discounting mechanics.
Quote: At the same time we shouldn't spit too much at the Vaga, because that is the appeal it still has: slim pickings (run and gank, as opposed to gank and run, or gank and regroup). It's just that it isn't very good at disengagement anymore, even though admittedly better than the Talos at not getting caught in the first place. That's useful for penetrating into territory, but the envelope is nonetheless smaller, the encouragement to engage.
"The Vaga's not very good at disengagement anymore". O.o What the hell are you smoking m8?
Quote: ed., *) That's not to say the Talos is particularily good at it, it has it's own problems facing the "bottom" of the game. Which is why i don't like the ships. In fact, the Talos suffer similar issues as today's Vaga, just not as pronounced or with a pricetag worth mentioning. The same goes for the new Cruisers. Which in turn is why i've spoken out against the rebalance initiative (not that it's bad, i just don't see it dealing with the underlying issue or resulting in something notably better over time, on the ship-changes alone - while alot of resources and time have gone into it rather than elsewhere).
I rather like the new rebalancing... though I would have given the Omen an optimal bonus to match the Zealot. Oh god, so sexy... :)
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Maeltstome
The Burning Red
142
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Posted - 2012.12.13 01:51:00 -
[60] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote: You have video's of yourself ina Talos shredding frigs.
I'm not claiming the talos is BETTER at killing frigs, im saying it can do it and do it reliably when flown well. Realistically though, it still 5 light drones and the ability to fit a decent shield buffer/xl-ASB so that's where you start thinking it's got the edge on the vaga.
Also, good luck killing a drake in a vaga - the option in a talos to fit void and flay a target if you know you can do it is the ultimate selling point. I've been out many times in a vagabond and found targets that i know i cannot take down due to it's limitations... i don't feel that way with the talos.
And only in situations where i jump into a gate camp do i think "****, vaga could out-run this maybe" Then i remember its cost me half the price and is insurable and care a whole lot less.
I wouldn't call it shredding frigs and the fact you're citing that video illustrates how little of it you understood. Go watch it again - I spend an enormous amount of time doing two things: - Shooting from 40km+ - Making people fly directly towards me. The Vagabond tracks many many times better than the Talos - it's just a fact. It kills frigs far more reliably, and in many ways it's just a flat superior ship. The ability for the Talos to "load void and flay a target" - especially in the kind of fit I was flying - is utterly ridiculous. Have you even flown the ship or are you just complaining? Because it damn sure doesn't fly like you think it does. -Liang
My experience with the vagabond far outweighs my talos experience . If you watch Kil2's stuff you can see what i mean about loading void. He demonstrates it perfectly against a drake. That's something you just cant do in a vaga, take out reasonably tanked missile ships. The vaga relies on out-ranging most of the incoming damage and but doesnt have the straight up killing power of other HAC's/BC's in terms of in-your-face damage.
For projection and tracking, yes the vagabond is superior. For tank, DPS and cost the talos is superior. Tracking enhancers buffed the vaga, but they also increased that danger 'kill-zone' of other ships - for example the hurricane can do more damage than a vagabond but was always limited by it's falloff. With the TE changes is can easily keep up with the vagabond inside point range... unless you for out 70% of the vagabonds hull price on a 30km point and sit further out.
I don't think either ship should be nerfed - i feel the vagabond is a little out of date though, which is maybe the point this thread should have made instead of straight out saying the talos replaces the vagabond... |
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