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Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
9
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Posted - 2011.10.12 23:33:00 -
[91] - Quote
I doubt the slot layouts will be changed - the whole logic behind the buff is that all other T2 ships have 4 bonus' and the AFs only have 3. Adding another AF skill bonus is all that should change - and - is potentially game breaking, especially for minmatar ships which do so well in small ship class'.
Wait and see I guess. |
Axel Greye
Nova Ardour
3
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Posted - 2011.10.13 01:41:00 -
[92] - Quote
I don't really see the point in giving assault frigates a fourth bonus.
Now, with the exception of the retribution, which needs a second midslot to bring it in line with other DPS assault frigs, I think that assault frigs on the whole are very balanced as they are.
Minmatar:
Jaguar: All-Rounder, Good Slots, Good Gun-based DPS, Good Tank, Good Tackle.
Wolf: DPS Boat, Sacrifices Slots / Tackle for Increased DPS, Good Tank.
Gallente:
Ishkur: All-Rounder, Good Slots, Good Mix of Drone/Gun-Based DPS+Ewar, Good Tank, Good Tackle.
Enyo: DPS Boat, Sacrifices Slots / Tackle for increased DPS, Good Tank.
Caldari:
Hawk: DPS/Tank Boat, Sacrificed Low Slot, High Rocket-Based DPS, Strong Tank, Good Tackle.
Harpy: DPS Boat, Sacrifices Fitting and Rocket Based DPS for Blaster/Railgun DPS, Good Tank, Good Tackle.
Amarr:
Vengeance: Tank Boat, Average Rocket DPS outweighed by Very Strong Tank, Good Tackle.
Retribution: DPS Boat, Lack of Midslots renders unusable solo, Good Laser-Based DPS, Good Tank.
Now as I said, really the Retribution is the only ship that needs some work. I wonder if people who complain about Vengeances have ever flown one since the rocket patch. Vengeance is about staying power not stopping power, and rockets are the ultimate weapon to compliment this as they do not rely on tracking or falloff.
Every other T2 Frigate is Balanced for its Role and has alot of application in combat. Adding a 4th set of bonuses to each will just require every one of them to be rebalanced and most likely Nerfed in future, because lets face it, alot of people will complain about new bonuses as opposed to just balancing the only bad link in the chain (Retribution). Seems like a total 1 step forward, 2 steps back solution to a non-existent problem.
Fix The Retribution.
Leave Everything Else.
PS. I do actually fly assault frigates (as well as T1 and Faction) on a near daily basis. =P |
Flyinghotpocket
Ascetic Virtues
2
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Posted - 2011.10.13 02:37:00 -
[93] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:Some AF are simple to fix. Change the Wolf from a 5-2-4 slot layout to a 5-3-3. Give both it and the Jaguar a tracking bonus. Minmatar is done.
Give the Enyo a similar 5-3-3 slot layout and another damage bonus. Make the retribution have a 5-2-4 slot layout and armor bonuses on top of it's T2 resists. Give the harpy a tracking bonus.
The Hawk, Vengeance, and Ishkur are more difficult and so I won't comment on them.
Do you even no what pvp is? Minmatar tracking bonus? is this a joke? im not even gonna touch the enyo. your retri slot layout is aboslutly ********. this is a retri. not a WOLF. mmmk?
harpy... wait for blaster buff then we'll here if what you ahve to say means anything.
hawk vengence and ishkur are perfectly fine. the rocket buff made them non-****
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Dro Nee
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2011.10.13 04:46:00 -
[94] - Quote
AF's do not need across the board buffing. Screaming for a 4th bonus just for a 4th bonus is arbitrary and assinine. Might as well go all the way and demand to have 8 bonuses just because bombers get 8 bonuses ( 9 if using covert cyno is considered a bonus). Quality and synergy is more important that quantity. Blanket bonuses have been shown to break balance inter-class, as evidenced by the AB bonus that made its way to Sisi, as well as exacerbate the imbalances intra-class.
Intra-class balance advanced significantly with the rocket buff. The Hawk and Vengence are now decent ships and offer a viable alternative to the Jag/Wolf/Ishkur status-quo of just a few years ago. The ships that lag in use are the Retribution, Harpy, and Enyo.
Given the gains the Hawk and Vengence made via weapon balancing, I would prefer to see the hybrid fix on TQ for a few months before any attempt at modifying the Harpy and Enyo. Especially since the enyo (and to lesser degree Harpy) has been shown to be competative in the hands of a few pilots, while the majority of average players fail utterly with them.
As for the retribution the stigma of a 1 mid ship is going to be tough to counter, given that 1-mid slot makes it virtually impossible to generate a solo killmail against an awake opponent. As has been suggested, the shortcomming is mitigated by having a gangmember tackle for you, but many AF pilots are running solo or "solo". Until the demographic changes there is little option except adding a mid, and once the demographic changes any interim boosts will become potentially balance breaking.
So in other words: Dont do anything to AF's until the hybrid changes have had time to digest, and then only buff (intra-class) as needed. |
Wot I Think
State War Academy Caldari State
43
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Posted - 2011.10.13 04:51:00 -
[95] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:hawk vengence and ishkur are perfectly fine. the rocket buff made them non-****
in EFT the change fixed things but in actual gameplay unbonused autocannons are still vastly superior to rockets.
Also to the blanket statement of "AFs are fine".
when was the last time you saw a AF? =P |
Nephilius
Pillage and Plunder Salvage Co.
4
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Posted - 2011.10.13 05:06:00 -
[96] - Quote
Afs need something. I have three that I never even take out anymore because I can use a frig almost as effectively for a fraction of the cost. I agree with the rest of the consensus as far as Amarr, those AFs need some serious love. But as a whole, they need some kind of buff, whether it be speed, EHP, whatever, just something. The door behind the toon you spin contains the secrets behind life, the universe and everything. |
Axel Greye
Nova Ardour
3
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Posted - 2011.10.13 10:40:00 -
[97] - Quote
Wot I Think wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:hawk vengence and ishkur are perfectly fine. the rocket buff made them non-**** in EFT the change fixed things but in actual gameplay unbonused autocannons are still vastly superior to rockets. Also to the blanket statement of "AFs are fine". when was the last time you saw a AF? =P
This is a load of shite. =P
There's a reason Hookbills, Hawks and Kestrels are FOTM.
Since the rocket patch, Rockets now apply nearly there full damage to a Frigate sized target whether they are webbed or not.
Kestrel can reach 160 DPS, and that's more than a Jaguar, with no reliance on Falloff or Tracking, just straight up, if you are in rocket range you are taking damage.
A Cookie Cutter Rifter can kite at range with barrage, which limits your damage type and every km into falloff you go you reduce your damage output, Rockets don't have this problem, they hit for the same damage at any range doing any damage type, which is what has made the Kestrel and extremely good Rifter Deterrent.
Hookbills get the DPS of a Kestrel, with the addition of two webs, which for a navy shield ship, pretty much means nothing short of a Daredevil will have a chance to dictate, allowing you to pick the range best suited for whatever you are fighting.
Hawks get good DPS, probably on par with a Jaguar using RF EMP, The Difference again is no reliance on falloff or tracking to apply your full damage, and you have the addition of Tank, be it Active or Buffer. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
80
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 10:53:00 -
[98] - Quote
Takamori Maruyama wrote:For the Retribution , since its a damn slowboat. Don't need a mid, it wasn't meant for soloing, its a gang ship
Amarr Frigate Skill Bonus:
10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Optimal Range per level 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Damage per level
Assault Ships Skill Bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Cap Use per level 5% bonus to Armor Resistances per level 5% bonus to Capacitor Recharge Rate per level
That would be a desirable Retribution.
it's quite meh tbh.
here's a better one:
amarr frig bonus:
10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Cap Use per level 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret Damage per level
AF bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Optimal Range per level 5% bonus to small energy turret tracking
+ 1 turret, fittings to accomodate 5th turret, a bit of mass shaved off.
retri fixed. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Knoppaz
Rens Nursing Home
1
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Posted - 2011.10.13 17:05:00 -
[99] - Quote
Axel Greye wrote: *stuff*
Kestrel can reach 160 DPS, and that's more than a Jaguar, with no reliance on Falloff or Tracking, just straight up, if you are in rocket range you are taking damage.
*stuff*
..more than a Jag? What kind of Jag have you flown so far?
The Kestrel can reach 160dps, but the ship will fall apart when sneezed upon. A Jag on the other hand reaches 200dps with 150mm Autos no problem, while still having 4k+ hp on shields alone and superior speed to the Kestrel, if you like even with a dual prop setup..
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EI Digin
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
157
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 18:43:00 -
[100] - Quote
The destroyer is to the assault frigate as the battlecruiser is to the heavy assault ship.
Sure, you might not always win in Drakes against an evenly matched armor HAC fleet, but you have the potential to cause much more isk damage to them as they can to you. If you play to your strengths (superior range, ability to kite), and their weaknesses (they have to be up close and personal for any sort of damage) you can pull out an upset. The situation is similar in destroyer vs assault frigate fleet fights.
Although I think destroyers (and interdictors) could use a buff when it comes to EHP, a buff to assault frigate damage and EHP won't erase the destroyer/assault frigate balance. Cruisers will still have a chance against AF's because they have much more flexibility when it comes to drones and energy neuts, but the fights between AF's and cruisers will be closer and require more skill on both sides.
When in comes to interdictors, unfortunately their main purpose is to launch bubbles, which are unable to be used in lowsec. I think that increasing their EHP to assault frigate levels or higher to turn them into miniature field command ships (like the Slepnir or Nighthawk) would serve to help to increase their purpose. Of course, the devs need to make interdictors that are not the Sabre more viable. This would need to be done carefully as to not overlap T1 cruisers, although cost is a big issue here.
As much as I want to believe rockets have been fixed, they still lack the DPS they need to compete. I don't believe that rockets are FOTM. The Hookbill is a good ship not because of the dps it puts out, but because it has -->5<-- midslots giving it a very large amount of flexibility. |
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Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
18
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Posted - 2011.10.13 18:44:00 -
[101] - Quote
Sarmatiko wrote:OP tell me is there any practical reason to train assault ship now (besides HAC prereq) if you can simply jump into dramiel and shoot people with much more better effect? Without rebalance, even with upcoming Dramiel nerf all existing asaults will still suck.
This
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Mag's
the united Negative Ten.
33
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Posted - 2011.10.13 18:46:00 -
[102] - Quote
Assault frig 5 is next on my list of skills to train. Not because I think they rock, but simply because I'm cleaning up my skill sheet. CCP Zulu.....Forcing players to dock at the captain's quarters is a form of what we actually wanted to get through, which is making Incarna a seamless part of the EVE Online experience. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
40
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 19:53:00 -
[103] - Quote
I think that an interesting approach would be...
Make the AF 4th bonus be aimed at giving it extremely good range with weapons and tackling gear, thus negating the need to have a speed boost or put itself in range of many of the normal anti-frigate defense weapons (neuts, web).
Electronic welfare frigates could also be made more viable with a larger range bonus's... putting themselves and AF;'s into the category of long range specialists.
Remove the penalty to ROF for destroyers (along with some per ship balancing) to make their main strength high DPS. To kill the enemy and break their toys!
It's not so much a mission statement,-áit's more like a family motto. |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
80
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 20:11:00 -
[104] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:I think that an interesting approach would be... Make the AF 4th bonus be aimed at giving it extremely good range with weapons and tackling gear, thus negating the need to have a speed boost or put itself in range of many of the normal anti-frigate defense weapons (neuts, web). Electronic welfare frigates could also be made more viable with larger range bonus's... putting themselves and AF;'s into the category of long range specialists. Remove the penalty to ROF for destroyers (along with some per ship balancing) to make their main strength high DPS.
why tackling?
tbh AF's don't need to worry about tackle, we have T1 frigs and inties for that. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Minta Contha
Emergent Entity KONZERN
0
|
Posted - 2011.10.13 22:27:00 -
[105] - Quote
Seems to me most of the discussion has centred on the Assault Frigate's role in PVP. What about PVE though? I fly Wolf and Retribution as PVE ships and find that the Retribution can really hold its own better than the Wolf sometimes. Obviously with any assault frig in PVE you have to pick your battles, but I've found the Retribution to be less hard work in these situations. I'm not going to say that another mid slot or a bonus buff wouldn't be nice, but just that not everyone wants or needs to fit a warp scram on their Retri. |
Flyinghotpocket
Ascetic Virtues
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 03:47:00 -
[106] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:
it's quite meh tbh.
here's a better one:
amarr frig bonus:
10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Cap Use per level 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret Damage per level
AF bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Optimal Range per level 5% bonus to small energy turret tracking
+ 1 turret, fittings to accomodate 5th turret, a bit of mass shaved off.
retri fixed.
You obviously haven't flown a laser ship if you think it needs tracking bonus. and tbh the 10% damage mod the other guy suggested is actually what the retri needs to solidify itself. |
Ghoest
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 04:33:00 -
[107] - Quote
Yes they do. But then so do E-war Frigs.
There is no reason anyone should ever chose to fly either of those classes in the current game other than for giggles. Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
Ghoest
3
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 04:37:00 -
[108] - Quote
What they should do is give all Assult frigs an integral nullifier as the 4th bonus.
Then they would at least have a role even if it is marginal. Wherever You Went - Here You Are |
Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
81
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 07:53:00 -
[109] - Quote
Flyinghotpocket wrote:Grimpak wrote:
it's quite meh tbh.
here's a better one:
amarr frig bonus:
10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Cap Use per level 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret Damage per level
AF bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Optimal Range per level 5% bonus to small energy turret tracking
+ 1 turret, fittings to accomodate 5th turret, a bit of mass shaved off.
retri fixed.
You obviously haven't flown a laser ship if you think it needs tracking bonus. and tbh the 10% damage mod the other guy suggested is actually what the retri needs to solidify itself.
10% bonus and 5 turrets would make it a wee bit too strong tbh, but I wouldn't mind. I really just slapped the tracking bonus there because I couldn't think about any other bonus that wouldn't make a 5 turret retri unbalanced. (5 turrets + 50% bonus = 7.5 effective turrets).
[img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Flyinghotpocket
Ascetic Virtues
2
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 18:22:00 -
[110] - Quote
Grimpak wrote:Flyinghotpocket wrote:Grimpak wrote:
it's quite meh tbh.
here's a better one:
amarr frig bonus:
10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Cap Use per level 5% bonus to Small Energy Turret Damage per level
AF bonus: 10% bonus to Small Energy Turret Optimal Range per level 5% bonus to small energy turret tracking
+ 1 turret, fittings to accomodate 5th turret, a bit of mass shaved off.
retri fixed.
You obviously haven't flown a laser ship if you think it needs tracking bonus. and tbh the 10% damage mod the other guy suggested is actually what the retri needs to solidify itself. 10% bonus and 5 turrets would make it a wee bit too strong tbh, but I wouldn't mind . I really just slapped the tracking bonus there because I couldn't think about any other bonus that wouldn't make a 5 turret retri unbalanced. (5 turrets + 50% bonus = 7.5 effective turrets). edit: now that I think about it, yeah ok 10% dmg bonus. it must get 5 turrets tho. I can't accept a retri having 4 turrets and a 5/1/5 config. if it has 1 medslot then it must have 5 turrets.
indeed and for the 4th bonus. instead of tracking you can have 5% afterburner speed per level. 5 turrents and a fast ship with dmg is a good retri.
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Caulk H0lster
Kazakh Ministry of Wealth Redistribution
1
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Posted - 2011.10.14 18:52:00 -
[111] - Quote
AFs need some balancing, but it's not so much quantity of bonuses or anything else that can be just "tacked on" that is lacking, it is the lack of a defined role in PvP.
PvP comes in many varieties, from large scale to small scale. I'm just gonna go ahead and say right now, unless CCP totally redesigns AFs, they will never have a role in large-scale PvP. They are too fragile, and really bring nothing worthwhile to the table that a well-organized fleet can't get from another ship that is probably better at the job.
Small-gang PvP is much different. I consider small-gang PvP to be gangs of any size that aren't centered around some sort of organized fleet doctrine, although a very loosely organized fleet doctrine (like "bring BCs" or "bring AFs"), can still be considered a "small gang". Anyway, AFs already do "ok" at small-gang stuff, because they can fill multiple roles, but mostly because they are "medium tacklers" and can put out respectable DPS for frigates. Even in small-gangs though, AFs suffer from being sub-par in almost all situations to faction or pirate frigates, especially in the very small gang arena.
I find it unlikely CCP will really do anything to make AFs worthwhile, but one thought might be this: turn AFs into mini-HICtors. Give them FOCUSED warp disruptors like HICs have with scripts in their Warp Disruption Field Generators. Here is why this idea is win-win-win-win. Also, because AFs behave in a lot of ways like cruisers as far as performance (scan res, align time), it's likely that balancing of other aspects of the AF wouldn't need much alteration, if any. Don't worry, HICs would still have a role, I'll get to that later.
Firstly, this would give AFs a role in every single type of fleet. They would be able to lock down supercaps and titans with their infinite points, and also be able to tackle warp core stabbed opponents. Because of their small sig raidus and speed with an AB, they would make great tacklers that might survive as long or longer than some HICs would.
Second, this would be a nightmare for supercap pilots. Suddenly they have to worry about HICs and AFs tackling them and holding them down. Supercarriers especially are going to have a very hard time even killing HICs after this expansion, killing an AF one-quarter the sig radius of a HIC would be nigh impossible unless the supercarrier had proper support (but it could still ECM burst the AF and escape, if the AF didn't have a proper fleet supporting him as well).
Third, because of reasons listed above, you would see at lest SOME more supercap deaths, if not A LOT more. This would serve to reduce the population of supers in a natural way, instead of nerfing them to the point nobody wants them anymore (again). Not saying CCP is doing that, the announced changes seem pretty balanced, but there is still an overpopulation of supers, no doubt.
Fourth, HICs would not be losers, because they would still retain the versatility of being able to bubble, and of course, the brickishness to be able to light cynos and survive for a minute or two, which is really their two key roles in fleets. Of course, they would still be able to scrip their warp disruptors and infinite-point things, too.
The only real drawback I forsee would be that AFs are fairly cheap and accessible, and you'll probably see a lot more pirates using them in lowsec camps being remote sensor boosted for infinite-point tackling. Really though, the scan res advantage over a HIC is not that much, so the only effect this might have is reducing the cost of the ship necessary to infinite-point something from 250m (or whatever a fully fit HIC costs) down to probably like 50m or 60m. Nonetheless, the other benefits this would reap would likely far outweigh this one, mostly economical, impact. |
Zircon Dasher
Zirconia Trade Group
5
|
Posted - 2011.10.14 20:38:00 -
[112] - Quote
Stats dont. Price does.
Cut build costs by 65% and you are golden.
*assuming dram nerf is sufficient and hybrids get meaningful buff |
Petrus Blackshell
Minmatar Ship Construction Services Ushra'Khan
5
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Posted - 2011.10.14 21:27:00 -
[113] - Quote
Ciar Meara wrote:4 th bonus
Retribution has only one med slot, NO ship should have just one med slot.
Some general balancing for all ships has been the goal of the next expansion according to interviews with CCP.
I love the Retri and all, and think that AFs need a 4th bonus, but giving the Retri another mid would make it by far the most powerful AF out there, even without the extra bonus. |
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local Break-A-Wish Foundation
8
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Posted - 2011.10.14 21:31:00 -
[114] - Quote
The armor bonus for the vengeance is on the assault ships skill instead of the amarr frigate skill. Did they forget that its a punisher hull or what? |
Flyinghotpocket
Ascetic Virtues
2
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Posted - 2011.10.14 21:34:00 -
[115] - Quote
Caulk H0lster wrote:Says stuff about Interdicting on AF's
Before you even think about giving yet another role to Frigates or AF's. maybe you should pester CCP for another dessie hull for your focused warp idea. one that this time isnt dedicated to 0.0 stuffs. |
Zarnak Wulf
Amok. Goonswarm Federation
13
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Posted - 2011.10.15 02:03:00 -
[116] - Quote
I like AF for the firepower they put out as such small platforms. EFT may say the Wolf does only 300DPS but when I'm shooting at medium or large ship that firepower seems so much more then that. I can put together a Jaguar artillery platform as well - I know, not the norm - that does 2/3 of a Thrasher's alpha with the same range and alot more survivable. That paper alpha doesn't measure up though - without the rifter's tracking bonus the artillery has difficulty hitting it's full potential. And the wolf always has issues with drones. You can never get through them fast enough it seems before you're dead. For both ships a tracking bonus would make me happy. I personally would trade the T2 resists for the EAF T2 'light' version in exchange for the tracking bonus. In essence, give them alot of firepower without limitations but make them like all other T2 frigates - not so crunchy.
On the other side of the equation are those that like the AF for their tankability. They want to see how much the small ships can take. The above idea is not going to appeal to them at all. Why, therefore, not have one for each.
Jaguar: Frigate bonus: Damage and tracking AF bonus: T2 Shield resists and a velocity bonus similar to the vigil.
Fast and durable - great tackler for close in but damage ouput is meh.
Wolf: Frigate Bonus: Damage and tracking AF bonus: Falloff and damage
Limited by 2 mids but very nice damage and projection. Also have to choose tank vs. other ship functions. |
Knoppaz
Rens Nursing Home
1
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Posted - 2011.10.15 07:30:00 -
[117] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote: good stuff
One tanky, one ganky.. I think that's the best idea I've heard about AFs in a long time, yet so simple. Nice one!
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Grimpak
Midnight Elites Echelon Rising
82
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Posted - 2011.10.15 07:58:00 -
[118] - Quote
Knoppaz wrote:Zarnak Wulf wrote: good stuff
One tanky, one ganky.. I think that's the best idea I've heard about AFs in a long time, yet so simple. Nice one!
hmm, what about, the frigate skill giving 10% bonus per level, and the AF skill giving 10% falloff and 10% optimal?
always thought that the wolf would be a great gunboat with the plus of being able to field either AC's or arties equally well.
that said however, wolf needs +5 base cpu either way. [img]http://eve-files.com/sig/grimpak[/img]
[quote]The more I know about humans, the more I love animals.[/quote] ain't that right |
Ruah Piskonit
PIE Inc.
9
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Posted - 2011.10.17 02:55:00 -
[119] - Quote
I am telling you all, and have been telling you all that the 4th retri bonus is the damage bonus - its really that simple. (since I was called 'that other guy' #sniff#)
Grim - the utility high on the retri is actually useful. . . and if you kick it up another turret, it may actually make it a little too good (good for me but hay).
but honestly, I don't think the slot layouts are in the changes, just the 4th bonus. You want to hear the rest of them for the other races? - because I actually think it could be really good (and I spend a lot of time in AFs, fighting AFs, and have come to like them. . .as weird as that is)
oh, and AFs will never be viable in 0.0. They fit ABs for the most part and ABs don't work in 0.0. Please go fly a proper interceptor or interdictor if you are in 0.0 Not everything needs to be balanced around 0.0 so there.
Also, you realize that falloff is a damage bonus for projectiles basically yah? |
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