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V'Ladarion
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.12.15 23:08:00 -
[1] - Quote
Yello,
So, i have this odd notion.
Every Corp has shares, which in the majority of cases are just not being used and those who do use them only use them for voting purposes.
Why not sell them?
It makes much more sense to set aside a portion of your corporation's shares for purchase by inverters than to use them as nothing more than a voting method.
Granted there are pro's and con's to selling shares... the one most people would be worried about is the fact that share holders have access to information about your corp, such as BPO lock-downs and can vote on new CEO's.
But by selling them you can acquire investors who, in a view to increase there shares worth and dividends payout, will most likely help support you're corporation.... which would be a great asset to newer corporations, or even to help fund wars/projects for larger corporations.
I would like to know peoples opinion on the sale and trade of shares, since this seems to be the most underused feature of Eve.
I personally would pay through the nose for shares in corporations i believe will either become well established or are already established. So if you're a CEO and want an investor, hit me up and we'l talk price ^^ |
ACE McFACE
The Forsworn Protectorate Imperial Protectorate
895
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Posted - 2012.12.15 23:10:00 -
[2] - Quote
I got one share of H3RP3S once, how much is that worth? "No one drove in New York, there was too much traffic." |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
241
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Posted - 2012.12.15 23:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
This was proposed before under "features" and it was, not surprisingly, trolled out of existence. EvE Forum Bingo |
V'Ladarion
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.12.15 23:18:00 -
[4] - Quote
ACE McFACE wrote:I got one share of H3RP3S once, how much is that worth?
I assume you mean the member of P0DM3? In which case, i personally would probably pay about 10mill a share
Katran Luftschreck wrote:
Aye, i figured something like that would happen. As a someone who's involved in the stock exchange IRL, i personally see this is something that could provide great benefits for Corporations as well as those players who wish to focus more on the business and trade aspect of the game (which right now, is so under rated its amusing) |
Zack Korth
The Deneveh Collective High Rollers
59
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Posted - 2012.12.15 23:18:00 -
[5] - Quote
a good idea? on GD? lol, you'll get no recognition and you'll like it |
V'Ladarion
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.12.15 23:23:00 -
[6] - Quote
Zack Korth wrote:a good idea? on GD? lol, you'll get no recognition and you'll like it
Have to break the trend every now an then, keeps people from getting bored? xD |
Issler Dainze
Tadakastu-Obata Corporation The Honda Accord
2210
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Posted - 2012.12.15 23:30:00 -
[7] - Quote
V'Ladarion wrote:Yello,
So, i have this odd notion.
Every Corp has shares, which in the majority of cases are just not being used and those who do use them only use them for voting purposes.
Why not sell them?
It makes much more sense to set aside a portion of your corporation's shares for purchase by inverters than to use them as nothing more than a voting method.
Granted there are pro's and con's to selling shares... the one most people would be worried about is the fact that share holders have access to information about your corp, such as BPO lock-downs and can vote on new CEO's.
But by selling them you can acquire investors who, in a view to increase there shares worth and dividends payout, will most likely help support you're corporation.... which would be a great asset to newer corporations, or even to help fund wars/projects for larger corporations.
I would like to know peoples opinion on the sale and trade of shares, since this seems to be the most underused feature of Eve.
I personally would pay through the nose for shares in corporations i believe will either become well established or are already established. So if you're a CEO and want an investor, hit me up and we'l talk price ^^
During the summit I suggested (and other have suggested this in the past as well) that Eve should have a real stock market. With Eve having the best economy of any MMO it seems like Eve is the place for a real stock market.
Issler
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Aditu Riraille
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2012.12.15 23:31:00 -
[8] - Quote
Well, they are out there... just the other night I purchased 20 shares of a certain Corp. They pay out every Sunday on a per share basis. I believe they had 670 shares in the offering, don't know where it stands currently though.
Email me if you want the info- it's a tech corp.
AR "We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time." T. S. Eliot -á-á |
V'Ladarion
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.12.15 23:39:00 -
[9] - Quote
Issler Dainze wrote:During the summit I suggested (and other have suggested this in the past as well) that Eve should have a real stock market. With Eve having the best economy of any MMO it seems like Eve is the place for a real stock market.
Issler
I agree fully, i've always wondered why its not been done yet. |
Gillia Winddancer
Shiny Noble Crown Services
156
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Posted - 2012.12.15 23:41:00 -
[10] - Quote
How would it work exactly? I mean wouldn't you need someone that manages it all or can it be done all automatically where players just buy and sell?
How exactly are stocks valued etc etc?
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V'Ladarion
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.12.15 23:52:00 -
[11] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:How would it work exactly? I mean wouldn't you need someone that manages it all or can it be done all automatically where players just buy and sell?
How exactly are stocks valued etc etc?
In a real Stock exchange, Shares are valued based on the perceived value of the share holders/investors.
The math investors use to determined this is;
Company size + (Growthrate/ stability) + (Income per annum/Profit margin per annum) - Corporate image
So a large company with a steady growth rate who has a good annual profit margin and aint made any bad decisions will have a higher share price than a similar company who's CEO made a bad decision... though this formula wouldn't work so well in Eve
The method for Stock sale would work better in Eve, this being basically investors voting with money, If more investors want a stock and are willing to pay more, the price will go up. If more investors are selling a stock and there aren't enough buyers, the price will go down. |
Seven Koskanaiken
Deep Core Mining Inc. Caldari State
11
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Posted - 2012.12.16 00:45:00 -
[12] - Quote
V'Ladarion wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:During the summit I suggested (and other have suggested this in the past as well) that Eve should have a real stock market. With Eve having the best economy of any MMO it seems like Eve is the place for a real stock market.
Issler
I agree fully, i've always wondered why its not been done yet.
because eve players make bernie madoff look like eva peron in comparison |
Mars Theran
Pod Kings
509
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Posted - 2012.12.16 00:54:00 -
[13] - Quote
This idea has been around since a few months after I started the game that I know of, and probably longer. I'm fairly certain that any players who do any sort of industrial activity in corporations consider it.I'm sure it has been suggested more than a few times.
What needs to be fixed: Corp share allotment and how they are increased. Currently, the Corp share is additive increases with a max of 10 m per vote iirc. The vote requirement is fine, but the issue is the additive nature of the shares. The system should simply allow you to vote for an exact total of shares and then implement that new total when the vote is through. Would save a lot of trouble.
I increased my original corp shares to some 200 m or so through the voting process, and valued them at something like 80 ISK per share through a calculation of assets and potential gains I did every few months. That's what I cashed out at, and we used it to move Corp asset ownership and investments between the directors. (i.e: One of us would take a loan or invest into the Corp and we'd recalculate the shares and move them appropriately.)
Actually worked fairly well.
The issue is that you cannot associate a value to the shares within game mechanics, or have those mechanics calculate a value for them. The only auditing service is your own estimation of their value. When I left the Corp, it was valued at ~16 billion ISK and we worked out a transfer which moved the shares to those members which essentially bought the shares I had. I had pretty much all my ISK locked into those shares so that worked out for me, with a net payout of just about 8 billion ISK, more or less.
So how would the game quantify that? Well, the assets themselves can be estimated, (including those in space), in theory, but what about projected profitability? I suppose the calculations could be made to take into account the ISK passing through the Corp wallet, and it could take into account the value of drops and bounties, and even mining operations.
Not sure it would be easy to do though.
..and then, there is the potential to lose everything in an instant. That could conceivably drop the value immediately, but would it be calculated immediately? Given experience, it is likely that the calculations wouldn't be made until downtime. It's possible that a query could be run every 4 hours or so.
Do you count player ships? What about having ownership of ships made Corporate or Individual as an option? There's a lot that would have to be implemented for this to be feasible I think; not that it isn't a good idea.
I think some players have already done something with this, but I'm not sure to what level they have taken it. zubzubzubzubzubzubzubzub |
Aditu Riraille
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
12
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Posted - 2012.12.16 01:13:00 -
[14] - Quote
Gillia Winddancer wrote:How would it work exactly? I mean wouldn't you need someone that manages it all or can it be done all automatically where players just buy and sell?
How exactly are stocks valued etc etc?
Not sure if this can ever come to fruition- EVE would need to support an equivalent to the Federal Trade Commission, not to mention a few other things. Corps would need to "Go Public" in order to be listed on the EVE Exchange, requiring regular submitted financial reporting, record keeping, audits, etc., etc. Given the rather fluid state and volatile nature of Corporations in the EVE universe, it may never become a reasonable idea to implement.
As it stands, you can do what I did; which was see an advertisement on the channels, talk to the Corp and decide whether their stock offer is worth the risk of investment. I put up $200M ISK. Time will tell whether it was a wise decision, but at the time I was looking for a way to invest and receive a regular return on investment, so I took the risk.
FWIW, AR
"We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time." T. S. Eliot -á-á |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
2304
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Posted - 2012.12.16 01:33:00 -
[15] - Quote
A big problem with stocks in EvE:
- They are poorly implemented, there are at least 3 ways for somebody taking hold of shares to take over CEO of the corp, and this is not even counting the "legitimate" ways to take over.
- There's no way to provide *consequences* to those who default or scam. Create new alt and pronto! a new virginity has been rebuilt! Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Jake Salvator
Torarjan Collective
2
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Posted - 2012.12.16 01:37:00 -
[16] - Quote
I agree - shares would be a good idea to elaborate on.
Can we make a petition? |
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ISD Suvetar
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
1236
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Posted - 2012.12.16 01:57:00 -
[17] - Quote
Moved from General Discussion. ISD Suvetar Captain Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs) Interstellar Services Department |
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V'Ladarion
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2012.12.16 02:03:00 -
[18] - Quote
We should pester CCP to fix the shares system with a look at creating a stock exchange in the future, then tho whole Business career path in Eve will actually be worthwhile lol.
Seeing as it is obvious there is a desire for it to happen :P |
Sigras
Conglomo IMPERIAL LEGI0N
253
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Posted - 2012.12.16 06:43:00 -
[19] - Quote
V'Ladarion wrote:Issler Dainze wrote:During the summit I suggested (and other have suggested this in the past as well) that Eve should have a real stock market. With Eve having the best economy of any MMO it seems like Eve is the place for a real stock market.
Issler I agree fully, i've always wondered why its not been done yet. as a player in the real stock market you must know that stock prices are based on potential revenue and company assets. . .
How exactly do you measure a corporation's potential revenue or assets as an outsider to determine how much the shares should be worth?
Furthermore, in real life, if you empty your corporation's wallet into your bank account, the police come and arrest you for embezzling money . . . in Eve, they make a video about it.
Stocks are basically all centered around trust and in eve you cant trust anyone. |
Omnathious Deninard
Extrinsic Operations
299
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Posted - 2012.12.16 08:10:00 -
[20] - Quote
If EvE were to make a stock market the only real problem that i see is how to determine how many shares each corp would have and what the dividend percent would be. For Share cost Share=(Total Isk of all corp wallets+value of corp controlled assets)/Number of shares Ex Corp wallets total = 21.500.000.000isk Assets(ships, fuel, POSes, ect) 178.400.000.000isk Number of shares 1.500.000 (21.500.000.000+178.400.000.000)/1.500.000=133266.66Isk/share
The growth would be shown on a day to day basis with the value of each share going up or down refreshed after down time. Dividends would be paid out on a weekly basis as EvE changes much more frequently than the RW. A new market window could be created for buying and selling shares of different corps
As far as Embezzling money goes, EvE is an enviroment that is much easier to control than the RW, it could be setup that any transfers form corp wallets to personal wallet would require a share holder voting, along with any purchases from corp wallets would require share holder voting. This would eleminate the potential for embezzlment. Ideas For Drone Improvement Updated 11/30/12Catastrophic Uprising is Recruiting |
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Mary Clarissa Titor
9
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Posted - 2012.12.16 08:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
Well, Christmas is the right time for exchanging socks... Jokes aside, I remember seeing several attempts to implement a stock exchange without CCP involvement. As far as I know, currently no such attempts survive - http://eve.hubau.be/ looks dead.
The biggest problem with implementing a stock exchange in Eve is not stock valuation, and not even the need to have a trusted third party to actually exchange stocks, nor the inconsistent way the 'shares' actually work, but the impossibility to enforce contracts that aren't hard coded as laws of nature.
Even if a system to enforce them existed, and there was one or another kind of court that would settle problems like these, social bankruptcy in Eve is by nature easy and impossible to stop -- buy a new character, biomass the old one, you're clean of all past responsibilities and there's no way to connect you two.
That said, courts and enforcement mechanisms outside of Eve are not perfect and not 100% effective, and stock exchanges still exist and work, so as long as some kind of reasonably effective enforcement mechanism can be devised, a stock exchange can work even in Eve. It doesn't have to be cheating-proof, it just has to make scamming and embezzlement hard enough to pull off, that investing and trading in shares is a 99%-successful gamble.
But before that, a hard line needs to be drawn between corporation-as-commune, corporation-as-mutual-support-society, and corporation-as-business. The existing corp mechanics actually only support the first one, any kind of formal relationship within the corporation is likewise unenforceable. People don't do work for corporations and then get paid in ISK for it, they do work for themselves and then pay tax on their income to the corporation, which is quite backwards and doesn't mesh with things like stock exchange at all. |
Konrad Kane
Dirt Nap Squad
38
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Posted - 2012.12.16 12:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
Surely for a stockmarket system to work you'd need some form of regulation, which doesn't existing now. The number of 'pump n' dump' and ponzi schemes in Eve just show how unregulated Eve markets are - which is one of it's charms. You'd have to curtail that a little, I'd imagine, to make this work.
I'd rather dev time was spent elsewhere. |
Alex Grison
Grison Interstellar
5
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Posted - 2013.01.07 22:23:00 -
[23] - Quote
Konrad Kane wrote:Surely for a stockmarket system to work you'd need some form of regulation, which doesn't existing now. The number of 'pump n' dump' and ponzi schemes in Eve just show how unregulated Eve markets are - which is one of it's charms. You'd have to curtail that a little, I'd imagine, to make this work.
I'd rather dev time was spent elsewhere.
you are mis-using the term "pump and dump" |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
210
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Posted - 2013.01.07 22:56:00 -
[24] - Quote
I havn't tested the system extensively, since it kinda sucks, but there are a few key problems:
1. Having shares gives voting rights to corp activities, such as declaring war, etc. 1a. There is no way to guaruntee shares remain within the corp.
This makes selling shares extremely risky for the corp- fact is, EVE is a game, and a social one, not a RL business marketplace. People usually aren't willing to give up control of their own activities, especially when it becomes a group of friends and not just a business venture. Either this has to go and be replaced by corp titles/ranks to give voting rights, or there has to be an in-game mechanism to "buy back" shares from non-members.
Power to increase the number of shares should remain with the shareholders, but increases should be done proportiantely, otherwise noone will ever want to increase them. If you have 100/5000 shares, and you vote to increase to 10,000, you've just halved the value of your own holdings. Stocks IRL do this by "splitting", or doubling the number of all shares and halving the value, so that the value of each investment remains constant, but the price per share decreases to encourage liquidity.
2. There's no guarunteed payout for an investor.
Either by buying the shares back, or by paying dividends, both of these are at the whim of the corp CEO. This means that any outside investment is based solely on personal trust, which as we all know, isn't easy to get in EVE. No enforcement=no market.
3. No way to value shares.
Wallet and assets can be seized at any time by anyone with the right roles; so any valuation of shares based on a corps net worth is 100% volatile. It would be so easy to scam it makes the whole idea pointless. This seems to me like it makes paying dividends, based on a corps generated income (not wallet balance) the only way to guaruntee profit to investors. This payout would have to be reserved and unnavailable even to the CEO until the payout is made.
With all this in place, there's now room for a market. Your average buy/sell system should work fine, but each corps' shares should have certain information attached to it. Total number of shares, price history of shares, and payout history per share period. This will let players evaluate the value of a given share by whatever aspect of investment method they like most. |
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