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Samson
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Posted - 2005.05.25 14:49:00 -
[1]
I've seen enough threads to know gate ganking using a sniper setup to avoid the sentry guns by itself must not be considered an exploit or it would have been dealt with by now? I assume CCP added the cloaking mechanism to prevent people from camping jump in points, and blowing ships up while the pilot is waiting for his/her screen to load. However, I just always assumed gate snipers were waiting at the gate to catch the unwary when they warped in. I hadn't realized until last night that these guys can actually target, and kill you so fast that they are able to catch ships going the other way.
Last night in my Moa my destination happened to be the system being camped. I jumped in, saw the gankers, and figured no way could they actually target, and destroy my ship before I could warp away, so I selected a station, clicked dock, and activated my shield hardeners. I knew there lock times must be fast, but instantaneous? I think I was being fired upon before my ship even finished decloaking. I expected them to get a few shots in I suppose, but wow... Even so it seemed to take forever for my ship to warp to the point that I wondered if I were some how webbed, though I'm sure my perception was simply distorted by the events that were unfolding before me. I had to laugh at the absurdity of it all.
After all why bother with the cloaking mechanism when it really makes no difference at all? They might as well have blown me away while my screen loaded. I've been away from the game for quite some time, so I started wondering what happened to random jump in points? It seems to me that it has always been the developers intent to prevent the camping of ships jumping in to a system. In my experience there has always been some mechanism in game to prevent it. I don't know why they got rid of random jump in points, but it would appear they replaced the notion with sentry guns in low security systems? If so wouldn't that make this an attempt to thwart the game mechanics, and thus a reimbursable exploit?
At any rate, I'm actually not really concerned about getting reimbursed. My losses were minimal in an insured Moa carrying no real cargo of note, or named equipment. I posted this because I find the whole situation so laughable that I thought it must be an exploit. If not I think I'll quit over it, because the developers of this game don't deserve my money for allowing a situation like this to persist.
Oh, and please save the stupid you should have been smarter and checked the map argument. What about the first guy to get killed or the second. Should they have checked the map? What would they have seen? This is like playing Doom while someone camps your spawn point with a rocket launcher.
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Scorpyn
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Posted - 2005.05.25 14:56:00 -
[2]
Why would a bunch of remote sensor boosters be an exploit?
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James Lyrus
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Posted - 2005.05.25 14:57:00 -
[3]
In order to lock fast, you need a setup that 'copes'. Which means you're sacrificing tanking, or other capabilities.
The cloak is, as you assumed, to avoid dying before your screen is loaded. Which is, IMO fair enough. The fact that they're fast enough to get you before you warp has nothing to do with it.
I strongly suspect, if you were to come back with a battleship, you'd find them easy pickings, as whilst they could lock you fast, you'd be able to have a decent setup.
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Rod Blaine
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Posted - 2005.05.25 14:59:00 -
[4]
It's not an exploit.
As to the why, you'd have to think back to when you left and see all the changes involved in camping possibilites and the playerbase's ways of dealing with it that evolved.
Everyone uses instajumps now, that effectively renders everyone invlunerable when they warp into a gate. The only exception is when campers use mobile warp disruption fields, which havge drawbacks of their own.
On the other side of the gate, there is just the small window of aligment of a ship that allows you to kill it.
In effect it already requires one bs to boost a mate so that that second bs gets instalock on even small ships. Even then, while sniping, you only really have time to kill shuttles, some frigs and the occasional industrial before they can warp out.
So all in all it's pretty balanced now, exit camping just takes the place of entrycamping. _______________________________________________
Yes yes, blogging is passÚ I know. Rod's Ramblingz on Eve-Online Solutions to your issues. |
Samson
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Posted - 2005.05.25 16:54:00 -
[5]
Since it seems that using suicide alts to pirate in high security is considered an exploit by almost everyone I would ask you why? Since it seems to me that using sensor boosters to avoid the consequences of the security system in .1 to .4 is pretty much the same as using alts to avoid the security system in >.5.
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Akuma Ichiro
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Posted - 2005.05.25 17:00:00 -
[6]
Edited by: Akuma Ichiro on 25/05/2005 17:01:08 How does using sensor boosters avoid the consequences of being in a 0.1 to 0.4 system? Do sensor boosters remove the security hit? Or do they somehow deactivate sentry guns? Yes, you can camp outside sentry range, but from 150k+ you will do so pitiful damage that you won't be able to kill anything but frigs and indies really unless you have lots of ships. And if you have lots of ships... stop wasting your time camping empire gates.
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Samson
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Posted - 2005.05.25 17:19:00 -
[7]
The dmg was enough to take out my shield hardened moa before it could even align for warp. I'd say that's pretty good, and if you don't see how sitting outside sentry gun range circumvents the security system... the sentry guns are the security system in low security space.
If I had enough money I'd hire one of those isk selling websites to camp every low security gate in Eve, just to show you all how fast CCP would declare it an exploit and fix it.
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Soulis
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Posted - 2005.05.25 17:22:00 -
[8]
Originally by: Samson If not I think I'll quit over it, because the developers of this game don't deserve my money for allowing a situation like this to persist.
can i have your stuff?
p.s. you can keep any spare moa's i dont want them
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Dark Shikari
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Posted - 2005.05.25 17:55:00 -
[9]
Originally by: Samson The dmg was enough to take out my shield hardened moa before it could even align for warp. I'd say that's pretty good, and if you don't see how sitting outside sentry gun range circumvents the security system... the sentry guns are the security system in low security space.
If I had enough money I'd hire one of those isk selling websites to camp every low security gate in Eve, just to show you all how fast CCP would declare it an exploit and fix it.
The campers would be owned in a matter of hours by a covert ops gangrape squad if they didn't leave after more than a few hours. -- The best description of alliances, ever:
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Val Amon
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Posted - 2005.05.25 18:01:00 -
[10]
It is a validly lame tactic.
I'd like to blame it on cruisers being way slower than they should be in comparison to its sig, but you can get a 1 second lock on intys too.
It is really annoying that you/we dont learn anything by getting ganked like that. No amount of map checking and crap like that would be able to prevent it. Most people dont have covert ops nearby to go near them to warp to and gank them either. The way the tracking boosters work too it would impossible to get a frig out there because anything that can shoot that far can easily hit a frig with the tracking boost even an inty going at angles with lvl5 interceptor. _ _ How many pilots does it take to wire a Flux Capacitor? 3, 1 to wire it and 2 to talk about how the old one was better. |
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Molten Platypii
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Posted - 2005.05.25 18:09:00 -
[11]
I fail to see an exploit in these tactics. The campers are using game mechanics to their advantage.
The only question that arises is whether sensor boosting equipment is too powerful.
You have a few options :
1. Fly quick ships (i.e. Inty's). IMHO an interceptor is the only ship that will make it out. Even then...
2. Try to warp to an item that requires minimal alignment.
3. Send a friend with an alt as a decoy/offering. While they kill him you get away.
4. Wait until the camp is disbanded.
For fun take an alt and fly through the 0.0 gate in Orvolle and use your free minute to check out the ships on the other side. This may give you an idea of what you're up against.
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PaulAtreides
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Posted - 2005.05.25 18:15:00 -
[12]
nanofibres are your friends.
Want to work for me? |
Corvus Dove
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Posted - 2005.05.25 22:54:00 -
[13]
Not an exploit. Neither are suicide alts in high-sec so long as you don't recycle them every time the sec gets too low.
Move along, nothing to see here. "You Griefer!!!" = "You Doodyhead!!!" |
Kade Shaderow
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Posted - 2005.05.26 04:07:00 -
[14]
Originally by: Molten Platypii
3. Send a friend with an alt as a decoy/offering. While they kill him you get away.
Note: May not work more than once.
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Sadist
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Posted - 2005.05.26 04:55:00 -
[15]
So do you consider tanking sentries also an exploit? _______________________________________________
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Famine Aligher'ri
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Posted - 2005.05.26 05:41:00 -
[16]
Gatecampers = Planned Attack and plan to kill anyone who comes or enters that gate. You = Just on autopilot jumping into the system.
Planned vs not Planned = Planned wins. Planned vs Planned = Best Pilots wins. Planned (Only setup to gank smaller ships) vs Planned (Only setup to kill GateCampers) = You guess.
Think, it helps.
Famine Aligher'ri, of The Aligher'ri -The Frig- |
Antarium
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Posted - 2005.05.26 06:14:00 -
[17]
Im going to try not to flame
Sniping is an Exloit ? no its not, Nothing more needs to be said
Why where you travelling through the system anyway ? if there was a 'Group' of snipers there chances are they had allready pwnd a good few people before you got there! Check the map much ?
Your complaining that they "Killed you before you warped" ?
If I fitted my geddon with 3 Sensor Booster II's in the mids I could have killed you at the gate before you warped? Especially if I had some happy friend bumping you out of alignment
Right and now for my final point
You dont wreckon that its fair that we sit outside of sentry range ? as you feel that this is some sort of Xploit as it gives one person a tactical advantage yes ???
When you use an ista jump to get through a camped gate whats that then ?
Low sec was never meant to be friendly... Deal with it or Quit.
Can I have your stuff ?
*snip*
Please do not discuss moderator actions and/or forum bans on the forum please - Jacques
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Schani Kratnorr
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Posted - 2005.05.26 10:08:00 -
[18]
No matter what is written here the fact remains that sniper setups are a viable tactic to take down weaker industrials from a distance... it does work!
With careful planning, a small force can track and pick the RIGHT target, becoming instantly wealthy beyond their wildest dreams, but the effort and time that has to go into it is quite a bite...
As a counter-measure, an eaqually small force using covert operations ships in combination with scramblers and damage dealers ca easily take down sniper ships. For this to happen, people ought to use some of the dedicated in-game channels to share information about the location(s) of these traps.
YOU may not have the tools to take on sniperpirates, but others may... -- "I am an expert in not caring. The trick is to stop giving a rat's ass about anyone else and start thinking about what YOU want, what YOU diserve, what the world ows YOU!" - Bender |
Antarium
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Posted - 2005.05.26 10:23:00 -
[19]
Originally by: Schani Kratnorr No matter what is written here the fact remains that sniper setups are a viable tactic to take down weaker industrials from a distance... it does work!
With careful planning, a small force can track and pick the RIGHT target, becoming instantly wealthy beyond their wildest dreams, but the effort and time that has to go into it is quite a bite...
As a counter-measure, an eaqually small force using covert operations ships in combination with scramblers and damage dealers ca easily take down sniper ships. For this to happen, people ought to use some of the dedicated in-game channels to share information about the location(s) of these traps.
YOU may not have the tools to take on sniperpirates, but others may...
Well said
And sorry jaq :( urrr you may find I made that comment on 1 or 2 posts (or maybe 20 or so )
sorry
Typherin
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kessah
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Posted - 2005.05.26 11:44:00 -
[20]
Samson im sorry you lost your moa, but its not an exploit, you must be extremly wary when entering low sec empire. Concord does not patrol these areas and your faced with Players who dont like to look for a fight instead just want to kill the unprepared and unaware.
There nuffin wrong with that but to be fair its probably more safer in 0.0 (aside from choke points) than in low sec empire.
NWO tho has some new intresting features that will push more people out into 0.0 - its off topic but still intresting. -------------------------------------------------------- Im Your Huckleberry ;-)
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Redeol
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Posted - 2005.05.26 12:11:00 -
[21]
Samson you probaly shouldnt play games you can lose obviously you cannot take it.
im so sick of these whinings
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Samson
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Posted - 2005.05.26 16:30:00 -
[22]
Wow some real intelligent responses in this thread. Are some of you really incapable of addressing the merits of the point being made here?
1. Recycling alts is somebody taking advantage of a flaw in the game design to avoid the consequences of the security system by resetting security status. If that is an exploit, then it can be reasonably extrapolated that an exploit is defined as anything that takes advantage of the current game mechanics to avoid an intended result.
Under this definition sitting outside the sentry gun range in low security it can be argued is an exploit as well, because you are effectively taking advantage of another flaw in the game design to avoid an intended result. If your argument is that getting shot up by the sentry guns for an act of agression at a star gate is not neccesarily an intended result, but only an obstacle one has to deal with than you have a valid point. I'm only posing the question not providing the answer.
The devs have made it clear that recycling alts for the purpose of resetting security status was not intended, and is thus an exploit. I do not believe they have weighed in on this issue as of yet?
2. No I would not consider tanking to be an exploit. Anyone who read, and understood my post would know this already.
3. I don't reckon it's an exploit, because it gives one side a tactical advantage, read carefully.
4. Sniper setups are certainly a valid tactic. I have no doubt that using range, and locking speed to gain a tactical advantage was intended, but was it intended to give pilots the ability to avoid the sentry guns in low security, that is the question at the heart of this issue.
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Tor Drakt'hal
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Posted - 2005.05.27 00:03:00 -
[23]
Edited by: Tor Drakt''hal on 27/05/2005 00:04:05
I am sorry I am trying to write something constructive, but I .... can't.... stop .... laughing
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Aversin
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Posted - 2005.05.27 00:19:00 -
[24]
Edited by: Aversin on 27/05/2005 00:22:24
Originally by: Samson Since it seems that using suicide alts to pirate in high security is considered an exploit by almost everyone I would ask you why? Since it seems to me that using sensor boosters to avoid the consequences of the security system in .1 to .4 is pretty much the same as using alts to avoid the security system in >.5.
sorry this is considered legit as per:
"Don't rely on Sentry Guns to keep you a 100% safe. Especially not when traveling in unsecured space. There are several tactical ways to avoid sentry gun fire, which are NOT considered to be an exploit."
the above statement is a direct quote from page sixteen of the players guide. You may find the players guide here, Click
sorry however if you were guranted a way out there would be no point to camping/sniping. Sorry for your losses, hope you do not decide to quit eve.
*edit also i would like to add that since there were multiple people that is another reason this is alright because it was 3v1 as unfair as it may be thats what they were setup to do and it was not just 1 person. edit*
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MutationZ
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Posted - 2005.05.27 03:28:00 -
[25]
Sometimes you try your best (check the map - quick warping ship etc etc) and the world still pokes you in the eye.
Deal with it
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Trepkos
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Posted - 2005.05.27 04:33:00 -
[26]
Everything to you guys are exploits, so save us the same blabble and leave this 'heavily exploited' game... ------------------ What can I lose? My dignity...every single inch of it.
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Eris Discordia
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Posted - 2005.05.27 08:18:00 -
[27]
Recycling alts when their security status is too low is concidered an exploit. Using snipersetups in 0.4 and lower is not last time I checked. If you want to be 100% sure about whether something is or isn'an exploit I suggest you 'Ask a Question'throgh this website ( its on the left under eve support)
I ♥ my pink dreadnought of pwnage Mail [email protected] if you have any questions. |
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