I feel like Subcap Amarr ships are really underpowered atm..

Amarr frigates aren't so good.
Legion really sucks.
Guns use cap and 95% of ships have less than 3 mid slots so using cap boosters = no utility.
Most ships slower than molasses.
Everything else sucks.
EVERYTHING SUCKS D:

Stuff that doesn't suck:
Battleship+
Omen and friends.




So it seems like flying anything that isn't a Cap/Battleship will make you 2nd rate to everything else.

Alot of their ships specialize in just being tanky, painfully slow, and mediocre DPS.

The only subcap ships worth flying seem to be anything "omen" and maybe the sac.

Seems to me the problem with Amarr ships (solo) is their tracking is low to brawl and they're too slow to kite. Add cap usage problems to that along with lackluster ship bonuses and it seems every other races ships just outshine Amarr ships. There are some exceptions with the slicer, vengeance and other T2 ships but their T1 counterparts are pretty meh.

Amarr ships are pretty good right now, good tech2 frigates and the slicer for tech1, good dessies, awesome cruiser lineup (the1/2/3, 100mn ham legion and even without that the lgion is pretty boss), good bcs, awesome battlehships!

Also the ham drake sucks in a pure stat battle, the harbi has more ehp/dps as does the armor cane/myrm!

The Punisher, Vengeance, Coercer, Arbitrator, Omen, Maller, Augoror, Curse, Zealot, Guardian, Harbinger, Oracle, Absolution, Damnation, Armageddon and Abaddon are some of the best ships in their class. Bur apart from that, yeah, Amarr suck.

I must disagree with most of your points.

Punisher - Solid PVP Frigate
Tormentor - Wild Card PVP frigate

Legion - Ok I agree here. It's sub-par.

Yes lasers use cap, but you gain so much. With T1 ammo you never have to reload.. range dicatation is easy with multiple ammo types and you have instant switching. Some ships are hard to fit with low amounts of mid slots, but that's what you pay for great tanks etc. Also most Amarr ships have in built cap reduction usage for lasers, and have larger capacitor pools anyway.

Some great ships -
Purifier (Best Bomber Imo)
Vengeance (Very Tough AF)
Maller (Gr8 Bait)
Pilgrim (Gr8 solo ship)
Curse (Gr8 gang ship)
Harbinger (High Dps, High Buffer, has enough mids)
Oracle (Nice Range, High Dps)
Absolution (High Dps, Ridiculous Active Tank)
Damnation (Ridiculous Buffer)

Battleships are ok apart from the poor Apoc. With the Oracle in existence, the only reason you'd pick an Apoc over an Oracle is for extra health.

Yes some ships are slow, but that's the playstyle, slow, tanky with good dps. If you didn't like the playstyle, you shouldn't have gone Amarr. Either way, I still love Amarr, and would choose it over the rest.

Oracle and Zealot is about the only good DPS supcap ships for Amarr

harbinger - too slow, even the nano ones
omen - not enough cap

The problem is the current game style that is popular is fast/skirmishy, which does not favor amarr

Most amarr ships have 4 or more mid-slots so whatever you're doing its wrong.

Scorch would like to have a word with you, as well as the Curse and Pilgrim.

Amarr probably have the best damage projection to DPS ratio (Thank you scorch) and are known for their tank. You also have to remember that Amarr ships, sans battleships, are niche performers. Within the T1 arena, the Arbitrator is a great solo ship, but it has to pick and choose its enemies.

Beams are debatably the best long range weapon platforms, but I guess that depends vs what tank type (projectile might be better against armor).

The Amarr Battleship line is amongst the strongest at the moment. You can't go through a null engagement without tripping over a hundred Apocs and Geddons, and the Abbadon brought about the whole "Fox" doctrine. Why? High tank and amazing DPS projection. Suck it missiles!

In the T2 arena, the Pilgrim and Curse are amazing solo boats, though like their T1 cousin, they need to pick their battles. They want Cap heavy targets or targets that rely on optimal. TD and Neuts omnomnomnom.

So many people are quick to say "Race X sucks!" but that's only because they want each race to be a swiss army knife, ready for every situation. And no, don't bring up the Drake. That Ham sonofabitch is a DPS/Tank monster and won't survive Tierecide of the BC hull class. Look at your racial ships and realize what they are capable of. Either get fleet mates that play to your strength and weaknesses or pick your scenarios better.

Scorch is ALL amarr has.. WIthout it, amarr would be even more bad then it is right now.

The problem is the current game style that is popular is fast/skirmishy, which does not favor amarr

And what if you remove null and barrage ? Oh ! AC and blasters would be even more bad then it is right now !

Thank you for this revelation : we now nkow that T2 ammo are very useful !


The conclusion to this is NOT that amarr are bad.

IMO, the Amarr problem, if any, is armor tank.

If you take barrage away it doesn't suddenly make all min ships worthless. Neither does null.

Scorch is CCP saying "sorry we made you guys so bad and unimaginative, have this."


Also hear this... Curor sucks, Ashimuu sucks, succubus sucks (lol), phantasm sucks.. Bhaal and Nightmare are good.

Whats the deal with making everything that shoots lasers suck if it isn't a BS?

There are a lot of amazing sub-BS ships that shoot lasers. Lasers are quite possibly my favorite turret system.

-Liang

Care to name some or did you decide to take this secret to the grave?

Sure, here's a few laser ships I really like:
- Executioner
- Slicer
- Retribution
- Coercer (old one, can't speak to the new one)
- Zealot
- Oracle
- Omen Navy
- Legion
- Phantasm

The Omen is disappointing but passable, and the Harbinger lost a lot of its appeal to me after the introduction of the Oracle. I'm sure there's several more sub-BS that I'm not thinking about right now. Capacitor can be an issue, but them's the breaks. /shrug

-Liang

Just because you like them doesn't mean they are any good.

Legion, worst T3 hands down.
Phantasm, one of worst pirate cruisers.
Anything Omen I already said was passable, look at op.
"Coercer (old one)" Old stuff doesn't count.

Everything else is just meh.

The Oracle is "just meh"? You're insane.

-Liang

Alright I'll give you that. But it doesn't change the fact the everything else is subpar.

And the funny thing is the Oracle is only good because it uses Battleship guns!

I don't know how you are fitting your HAM Drake, but mine does more DPS than my armor cane, has more EHP, moves faster, and has better applied damage to BC up (only because I put two webs on my armor cane for cruiser down). HAM drake with scram web will eat any other BC that isn't dropping boosters like dey hot. God forbid I put missile implants in my head and just make it stupid.

Ham drake has aprox 108k ehp and deals 786dps, armor cane has 124k ehp and deals 864dps!

Maller isn't "gr8 bait" when everybody who sees a maller instantly screams bait. I would never attack a maller without checking a killboard to see if its bait or not.

Harbinger DPS isn't too high, its mearly okay. Absolution? Since when is 500 dps high? And why would you ever active tank an absolution.. Lol.

Most amarr ships are mearly okay. Only a few can have a chance at even doing anything that isn't fleet work. It kinda sucks having every ship at your disposal being a fleet ship and nothing else, no variety.


Yeah I get that they are suppose to be slow and tanky, but every other race has some other options when it comes to how to fit. With amarr it feels like the same ship over and over again with different models and a few changed bonuses.

If you like the Oracle, there's no good reason you shouldn't like the Zealot and Legion. The Omen and Navy Omen are alright, as you agreed. The Coercer is arguably better now than it was before. The Executioner and Slicer are both ******* amazing and you're crazy to claim otherwise.

-Liang

No, you are crazy to suggest the Legion is fine, or even good.
And I never said anything about the zealot, so I don't know where you are getting that from.

But besides zealot and oracle everything else they have is just bad. Oracles only good because it uses the BS guns, and zealot is only good because its just a strong ship overall. Slicer and executioner are just alright. I wouldn't call them amazing. The rest blow.

I want to live in the world where those two stats occur simultaneously for both ships. Maxing out the tanks, jotting those numbers down, then maxing out the gank, and combining the two, do not a ship make.

So is it safe to say right now that Amarr ships are kinda suck?

The punisher will out-brawl ANY frigate (except maybe a TD hookbill).

I must disagree with most of your points.

Punisher - Solid PVP Frigate
Tormentor - Wild Card PVP frigate

Legion - Ok I agree here. It's sub-par.

Yes lasers use cap, but you gain so much. With T1 ammo you never have to reload.. range dicatation is easy with multiple ammo types and you have instant switching. Some ships are hard to fit with low amounts of mid slots, but that's what you pay for great tanks etc. Also most Amarr ships have in built cap reduction usage for lasers, and have larger capacitor pools anyway.

Some great ships -
Purifier (Best Bomber Imo)
Vengeance (Very Tough AF)
Maller (Gr8 Bait)
Pilgrim (Gr8 solo ship)
Curse (Gr8 gang ship)
Harbinger (High Dps, High Buffer, has enough mids)
Oracle (Nice Range, High Dps)
Absolution (High Dps, Ridiculous Active Tank)
Damnation (Ridiculous Buffer)

Battleships are ok apart from the poor Apoc. With the Oracle in existence, the only reason you'd pick an Apoc over an Oracle is for extra health.

Yes some ships are slow, but that's the playstyle, slow, tanky with good dps. If you didn't like the playstyle, you shouldn't have gone Amarr. Either way, I still love Amarr, and would choose it over the rest.

FYI:

Test has doctrines for:

Apocs

Guardians

Oracles

Navy Apocs

Damnation

Zealot

Curse

Archons

Revs

Super caps

That's a lot of Amarr ships.... The 4 conventional ships that we fly every day I have put in bold. If you think Amarr suck then you are clueless. They are a standard for large scale alliance PvP.

More like 7 are constantly used on a regular basis. That's a lot for one race. ... Do you know what you are talking about?

I like how only Five of those ships are sub-BS, out of like 40+ sub-BS ships.

Like I said, amarr subcap just sucks compared to the other races.

You never hear anybody going "Guys, we GOTTA do a harbinger roam!" (inb4 hordes of nubs claiming they do harbinger roams daily and how their legion can solo 10 man fleets.)

What's wrong with the Harbinger?

Nope not at all.



Here are some examples.

Incursus - One of, if not the best T1 frigate atm.
Taranis - Still a beast.

Thorax - Shield or armor tank, great ship. Perfect balance of utility/tank/dps.
Vexor - Also a great ship for PvP and PvE.

Arazu - Great ship.
Proteus - THE best cloaky T3, rather fly this than a legion any day.

Myrm - Amazing tank, can fit full tackle and cap boosters (Amarr can't do that ). Works great for solo/small gang.
Brutix - Disgusting DPS.
Talos - One of the best solo ships out there. Very fast and good damage projection.

Megathron - Great ship.
Dominix - Great utility ship.

Thanatos - Great
Nyx - Amazing
Erebus - Great
Moros - Great


Then the pirate faction ships:
Daredevil - Amazing.
Vigilant - Amazing.
Vindicator - Amazing.


So not only do they have great BS and cap ships, they also have a ton of ships that can be used in anywhere from solo to fleet warfare to great effect. Also pirate ships that don't blow. The ships are so versatile they can adapt to many situations.

Can Amarr even compete? The same generic make up for each ship. Slow and big buffer, no versatility, glaring weaknesses for solo/small gang work, literally the same ship over and over besides a few that are worth flying.

In my eyes if somebody trains gallente atm, they would be getting alot more for the SP invested.

First off, you have proven my point. Amarr carriers and super caps are superior in every way when comapred to gallente or any other race. They have the Moros which is the best dread. That's it. Myrm, brutix, talos are not feasible for large scale PvP. Small scale yes. But not large.

Mega and Domi are hardly ever used. The Domi is here and there but not much. Mega is not used at all. Same with the vindicator. Vexor is ok thorax you hardly ever see.

Curse is like the best ship for small scale PvP in game. Do I even need to talk about the Bhallgorn as well? Let's also not forget that the vengeance is superior to the other gallente afs. When push comes to shove and you compare what is used more for PvP. Amarr will win. Does gallente have an advantage at small scale PvP? Yes.

But are gallente feasible in large scale PvP? Absolutely not. Aside from caps you have:

Onieros

Arazu

Lachesis

and that is pretty much all she wrote. Some use the domi but not many.

Get Amarrs **** out of your mouth. Just because you think the taranis is bad doesn't make the entire post invalid.

Amarr blows face it. Harbinger isn't worth flying because it doesn't do anything better than any other bc out there. Mediocre ship.

I used to be the guy defending the Gallente from haters like you till I took an arrow.. nah jk

But who actually flies Tier 2 BC any more any ways? All I see is Nados and Taloses, with a dash of Naga and Oracle (can't remember the last time I saw a group of Drakes in low-sec)... the whole Tech I lineup is being rebalanced so you have nothing to complain about other than the Harbi being "slightly inferior" to the Hurricane (even tho it does better damage / projection but whatevs)

And even so, the Battlecruiser lineup is the only place you have a CHANCE of making the Amarr seem weak, go down or up in ship class and you have no argument.

So perhaps it is you who should get a better grip on the **** of Amarr.

nope you don't get it. I'll try to make it as simple as possible.

theres more to the game than blob warfare.

cap ships
Amarr - 10/10
Gall - 9/10

non-cap ships
Amarr - 2/10
Gall - 10/10



Lol. Just because you kill T1 fitted RVB frigs and destroyers in your executioner doesn't mean that Amarr is balanced.

The harb is "very inferior" to a ship like the hurricane. Who flies tier2 BC? Idk man. Have you ever ventured into something that isn't hi-sec?

Amarr cruisers suck gallente ****. Idk what you are talking about.

The only thing keeping amarr alive is scorch and you know it.

I do get it. You are the one who doesn't. it's like trying to explain fleet concepts to someone with down syndrome. Gallente ships have a small niche and that is it,. How many triage thannys do you see, how many domi fleets do you see? How many fleets of myrms are there? What about fleets of megathrons or diemoses?

Now ask yourself the same question about triage archons, apocs, Oracles, and zealots? My point exactly/

The harb is "very inferior" to a ship like the hurricane. Who flies tier2 BC? Idk man. Have you ever ventured into something that isn't hi-sec?

Amarr cruisers suck gallente ****. Idk what you are talking about.

The only thing keeping amarr alive is scorch and you know it.

I feel like Subcap Amarr ships are really underpowered atm..

Amarr frigates aren't so good.
Legion really sucks.
Guns use cap and 95% of ships have less than 3 mid slots so using cap boosters = no utility.
Most ships slower than molasses.
Everything else sucks.
EVERYTHING SUCKS D:

Stuff that doesn't suck:
Battleship+
Omen and friends.




So it seems like flying anything that isn't a Cap/Battleship will make you 2nd rate to everything else.

Alot of their ships specialize in just being tanky, painfully slow, and mediocre DPS.

The only subcap ships worth flying seem to be anything "omen" and maybe the sac.

Actually, it means that the Amarr frigates are balanced.


Actually I was just talking about low-sec and the lack of Tier 2 BC compared to Tier 3 these days. It's probably got something to do with Tier 3 BC obsoleting your precious Canes.


You don't know what you're talking about yourself either. Isn't any Omen not doing 500 DPS at Vagabond range? Isn't any Maller without 100k EHP?


And the only thing keeping Minmatar alive is Barrage.

And if Caldari weren't so good they wouldn't be as good.

And if I wasn't better than you I'd lose in a fight.

I feel like Subcap Amarr ships are really underpowered atm..

Myrm - Amazing tank, can fit full tackle and cap boosters (Amarr can't do that ). Works great for solo/small gang.
Brutix - Disgusting DPS.
Talos - One of the best solo ships out there. Very fast and good damage projection.

You should never, ever fly a Brutix. The Myrmidon obsoletes it completely.

I'kk bet you 20million ISK I can find a current reason to fly a Brutix over a Myrmidon.

OP flat out refused to acknowledge the use of ships that Amarr offers. TEST Alliance is an 11,000 man alliance and we are heavy into Amarr. But apparently according to the OP. That doesn't count as PvP. Gallente has the superior Dread, Logistic ship, and small scale PvP bcs. Their recons are useful in fleets but not as much as Minnie. Past that, they are lacking and outclassed. Gallente that is.

Maybe he is talking about solo or small gangs.

Yet another thread reaches that point where no-one is willing to change there opinion on the subject matter - and the vast majority of posts are made by people who do not fly the ships they are slating/defending.

Go listen to the final episode of 'bringing solo back' from season 1. They address amarr and i largely agree with the sentiment.

What is that sentiment? I'm not telling you if you're too lazy to listen to a player pod-cast that tries to improve other peoples game playing experience.

I feel like Subcap Amarr ships are really underpowered atm..

Amarr frigates aren't so good.
Legion really sucks.
Guns use cap and 95% of ships have less than 3 mid slots so using cap boosters = no utility.
Most ships slower than molasses.
Everything else sucks.
EVERYTHING SUCKS D:

Stuff that doesn't suck:
Battleship+
Omen and friends.




So it seems like flying anything that isn't a Cap/Battleship will make you 2nd rate to everything else.

Alot of their ships specialize in just being tanky, painfully slow, and mediocre DPS.

The only subcap ships worth flying seem to be anything "omen" and maybe the sac.

They are not OP and not the best at PvP, but not the worst. They are in the middle or just well balanced.

As for PvE they are the worst (after minmatar and gallente) if you look at them overall since they can't change damage type.
To preform well you need to do stuff in amarr space so you won't meet Guristas or Angels.

Gallente can'nt change damage type on their guns either. And btw, guristas second lowest resist is thermal - and all high damage amarr crystals have a very large thermal component. I used to run plexes using an ishtar to tank and a 'geddon to DPS and it was a walk in the park.

Amarr ships are fine in large numbers. On a smaller scale though the problem is Lasers are a kiting weapon and Amarr ships are Brawlers. They just don't go together particularly well.

The problem is, more than anything, that they Armour tank. Fix Armour tanking and you fix Amarr for the most part... Though they could certainly do with some more Drones in the turret Cruisers. 3 doesn't really cut it when you guns have such bad tracking.

You should never, ever fly a Brutix. The Myrmidon obsoletes it completely.

-Liang

I agree, Amarr subcaps are awful.

You should never ever fly a rupture, the cynabal obsoletes it completely.

-Diesel

You should never ever fly a rupture, the cynabal obsoletes it completely.

-Diesel

Assuming they were all free, perhaps. But they're not. Price difference between Cyna and Rupture is HUGE (like 10 vs. 250 million), while it's negligible between Brutix and Myrmidon (40 vs. 50 million). Therefore, Liang's claim stands, whereas yours does not.

I feel like Subcap Amarr ships are really underpowered atm..
Amarr frigates aren't so good.

Edit: ^^ Oh my goodness dude, get Gallente's balls out of your mouth, the Taranis hasn't been worth it's price in months and months.

LOL.

The point was that both statements were idiotic claims. Mine was just exaggerated to the max.


Flying the brutix is just like flying a ferox. You get people to agress you who normally wouldn't have because of "lolbrutix".

Good luck getting anybody who knows anything to try to fight a myrm.

Get spoonfed more?

Welcome to EVE online in 2012 where we give out ship recommendations based on "engageability" and claim proper use of strong ships that enable you to take on more challenging targets get you spoonfed. Since a real challenge is myth!

The fact that some people are reluctant to fight you usually have very little to do with the ship you fly and the fitting you use, or the concept you fly in a gang and how that gang is composed. The reason people are reluctant to fight you is a percieved level of competence. Most reservations and smack you see drifting around (wether it's ships, ship-roles or ship-use) are usually just poorly masked scape-bleats.

I know i've said it before: try making a new character and see how eager people are to shoot you when your dob says 2012, your corp history is blank and no one knows your name. Even in a "strong" ship. It's why our behaviour involve creating disposable alts as well, or why many nomadic groups are nomadic (they aim to tap into the first few days of unfamiliarity when a region still underestimate you, and take fights). It works, but is such a modus operandi healthy?

It's really an absurd reverse culture (born and bred in the age of dwindling up-engagement, where players and corps seek to make themselves look worse than they are to appeal to an inferior target pool - because they can't or won't up-engage and take on proper challenges, challenges suitable for their actual level of gameplay) and while "engageability" is amusing in itself (amusing yet not invalid), it becomes absurd when that is the approach taught to newer players.

If we don't teach our new players to take risks and challenges, what behaviour do we breed long term?

Gone are the days when we suggest pilots make themselves as good as possible; since if they are new, they will get fights anyway and will extend their target pool to take on tougher challenges. No, we preach "aim small, miss small" and try to goad weaker opponents into fights and keeping a moral high. Then us older players pat ourselves on the back, they didn't fight our Ferox or Brutix despite their awesome Myrms and Drakes, nevermind the 80m SP difference and 8 years of experience. We won despite the fact that they had EW while we honourably refused it. Call them homosexuals and blobs when you lose. You don't dabble in risk-adversity like those ... others.

If people don't want to get spoon-fed they should go for a real challenge and try to up-engage more - not settle for the small fry that are too pansy to fight a Myrm.

Spoonfed, backwards...

The Punisher, Vengeance, Coercer, Arbitrator, Omen, Maller, Augoror, Curse, Zealot, Guardian, Harbinger, Oracle, Absolution, Damnation, Armageddon and Abaddon are some of the best ships in their class. But apart from that, yeah, Amarr suck.

Welcome to EVE online in 2012 where we give out ship recommendations based on "engageability" and claim proper use of strong ships that enable you to take on more challenging targets get you spoonfed. Since a real challenge is myth!

The fact that some people are reluctant to fight you usually have very little to do with the ship you fly and the fitting you use, or the concept you fly in a gang and how that gang is composed. The reason people are reluctant to fight you is a percieved level of competence. Most reservations and smack you see drifting around (wether it's ships, ship-roles or ship-use) are usually just poorly masked scape-bleats.

I know i've said it before: try making a new character and see how eager people are to shoot you when your dob says 2012, your corp history is blank and no one knows your name. Even in a "strong" ship. It's why our behaviour involve creating disposable alts as well, or why many nomadic groups are nomadic (they aim to tap into the first few days of unfamiliarity when a region still underestimate you, and take fights). It works, but is such a modus operandi healthy?

If people don't want to get spoon-fed they should go for a real challenge and try to up-engage more - not settle for the small fry that are too pansy to fight a Myrm.

So, all this discussion tells that amarr ships are not so bad inPvP part of the game.
Meantime there is another one part - PvE. Without this part there will be no Napocs, Baalghorn, Slicers and so on. I am not skilled PvP pilot, i'll say about PvE.
Explain me, how is it possible -Drake (simple T1 BC, compariously low skilled, easy accessable) holds full agro in T2 fit of Sansha's 5/10 ded complex, meantime my Absolution rewarped constantly? Resists to EM and termal was 91 and 88. No MWD used, only AB. My centum B type repairer was unable to repaire damages, meantime Drake... well, yu know.
I've lost my Paladin in official war, so i decided to try other ships in 4 lv missions and complexes. All ships with armor tank. All was a crap in general. I know that CCP will rebalance comand ships, but for now Absolution is awfull in PvE. I've tried Munin with it's cheating 90% armor resists against EM. It handles better than absolution, but still simple T1 shield ship makes this better.

In my opinion main problemm of amarr ships - armor tank. It is not good enough in PvE.
CCP havedone few steps to improove that - reactive armor hardener and it's buff in recent patch. But it is not enough.
Well, i'll create another tread here about possible solutions to avoid spaming in this thread.

It is not safe to say amarrian ships suck.

The crusader would like to have a word with the taranis for best combat interceptor.

I have a love/hate relationship with the Crusader. It can be really fantastic but the first guy with a neut will put you permanently out of action. The Ranis can dual prop and fit a nos, which IMO puts it above the Crusader. Now, the Executioner vs Atron and Slicer vs Comet... Amarr wins hands down. :)

-Liang

Actually one of Diesel's comments just gave me an idea.

If we find a ship that looks like a vagina it can go nice with the Thorax.

You can fly in and out and have a good time

Oh that would be the Zephyr.

Sure, here's a few laser ships I really like:
[snip]
- Coercer (old one, can't speak to the new one)
[snip]


-Liang