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Elrich Kouvo
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.12.27 22:23:00 -
[1] - Quote
Would it really be so bad? I mean EVE did exist before it didn't it? Why not get rid of wardecs unless Sov. related? |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
904
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Posted - 2012.12.27 23:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
..Why?
Also, you do realise wardecs are purely a highsec thing, right? They mean nothing for sov warfare. |
Elrich Kouvo
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.12.28 00:46:00 -
[3] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:..Why?
Also, you do realise wardecs are purely a highsec thing, right? They mean nothing for sov warfare. Well it would help corps challenge null sec Sov. |
Zan Shiro
Alternative Enterprises
73
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Posted - 2012.12.28 01:05:00 -
[4] - Quote
Elrich Kouvo wrote:Danika Princip wrote:..Why?
Also, you do realise wardecs are purely a highsec thing, right? They mean nothing for sov warfare. Well it would help corps challenge null sec Sov.
they would have to go out there and do stuff. Ex. bulk of the jita nutswingers. they dec to annoy, but by and large beyond a roam or 2 don't roll out the sbu's and bash fleets in 0.0.
0.0 only decs in the beginning of a war to pick off easy targets in empire. Its not needed. At least for NBSI crews....which is most of 0.0.
Unless terribad after about a week or 2 most alliances have thier members corps' heads out of thier asses with the tell your tards to stop dying like muppets in empire speeches. Then the decs fall off to save isk since why pay mliions when even the worst mouth breathers have trained up a basic cheesy t1 hauler alt to do jita runs at least.
If your corp feeling frisky you could claim a system from any 0.0 alliance no dec required. Its 0.0, no concord hunting you down, no gate guns to shoot you after your fleet jsut popped a neut pos as you leave the system.
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Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
65
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Posted - 2012.12.28 01:09:00 -
[5] - Quote
Elrich Kouvo wrote: Well it would help corps challenge null sec Sov.
Pray explain how Null Sec Sov corps having completly safe High sec supply routes would help someone challenge them? |
Danika Princip
Freelance Economics Astrological resources Tactical Narcotics Team
904
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Posted - 2012.12.28 01:24:00 -
[6] - Quote
Elrich Kouvo wrote:Danika Princip wrote:..Why?
Also, you do realise wardecs are purely a highsec thing, right? They mean nothing for sov warfare. Well it would help corps challenge null sec Sov.
...So...removing wardecs entirely makes it easier to take sov?
How on earth did you work that one out? |
Elrich Kouvo
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.12.28 01:37:00 -
[7] - Quote
Nevyn Auscent wrote:Elrich Kouvo wrote: Well it would help corps challenge null sec Sov.
Pray explain how Null Sec Sov corps having completly safe High sec supply routes would help someone challenge them? Well I haven't ever seen what you are talking bout so I'm gonna dismiss your speculation sir. Name specific null sec corps that are having their supply lines raided by a war dec. besides that's hardly effective with alts and such. |
Elrich Kouvo
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 01:38:00 -
[8] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:Elrich Kouvo wrote:Danika Princip wrote:..Why?
Also, you do realise wardecs are purely a highsec thing, right? They mean nothing for sov warfare. Well it would help corps challenge null sec Sov. ...So...removing wardecs entirely makes it easier to take sov? How on earth did you work that one out? Makes it easier to challenge established corps? Oh yes it does! |
masternerdguy
Inner Shadow C.L.O.N.E.
1011
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Posted - 2012.12.28 02:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Your idea makes no sense. Sov null doesn't care about wardecs because they use out of alliance alts to do the serious stuff. This would just cement hi sec's status as carebear island. Things are only impossible until they are not. |
Elrich Kouvo
State War Academy Caldari State
2
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Posted - 2012.12.28 02:43:00 -
[10] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Your idea makes no sense. Sov null doesn't care about wardecs because they use out of alliance alts to do the serious stuff. This would just cement hi sec's status as carebear island. No. Wardecs prevent viable corps from getting a foot hold to challenge established 0.0 corps. |
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
1329
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Posted - 2012.12.28 02:56:00 -
[11] - Quote
masternerdguy wrote:Your idea makes no sense. Sov null doesn't care about wardecs because they use out of alliance alts to do the serious stuff. This would just cement hi sec's status as carebear island. Pretty much this. My alliance exists almost exclusively in low-sec and everyone in it uses alts and "unrelated" friends to move supplies to and fro. If you declare war against our alliance, our supply lines remain more or less safe (unless you find out who they are... in which case the alliance decs you).
Your idea would make our supply lines pretty much invulnerable because the server cannot distinguish between an alt corp or a "real" corp.
Also... if your corp cannot survive a war in high sec then it won't survive the horrors of low and null sec. We don't even use war decs down there unless it's against "friendlies." Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Elrich Kouvo
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 04:02:00 -
[12] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:masternerdguy wrote:Your idea makes no sense. Sov null doesn't care about wardecs because they use out of alliance alts to do the serious stuff. This would just cement hi sec's status as carebear island. Pretty much this. My alliance exists almost exclusively in low-sec and everyone in it uses alts and "unrelated" friends to move supplies to and fro. If you declare war against our alliance, our supply lines remain more or less safe (unless you find out who they are... in which case the alliance decs you). Your idea would make our supply lines pretty much invulnerable because the server cannot distinguish between an alt corp or a "real" corp. Also... if your corp cannot survive a war in high sec then it won't survive the horrors of low and null sec. We don't even use war decs down there unless it's against "friendlies." Yes but the bonds and social interaction necessary for null/low sec activity(cant at all understand why you'd call them horrors) would be able to be established. |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
1345
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Posted - 2012.12.28 07:28:00 -
[13] - Quote
Elrich Kouvo wrote:Yes but the bonds and social interaction necessary for null/low sec activity(cant at all understand why you'd call them horrors) would be able to be established. "Social interaction" is only a part of what makes a corp successful. The other part is "mentality."
I've seen corps with great communication slide into failure because certain people lack the ability to think in terms of "predator/prey." One of my first corps was a great example of this.
When I joined EVE, I was part of a "rookie lol-corp" that had a rather eclectic band of people within it. Some thought in the terms I described above. When a "situation" came up, they thought of ways to get around it... creating alts to spy on those who wished us harm (gaining intel on their locations and whereabouts), refitting their PvE ships for PvP and working in groups so that anyone who came looking for them would be walking into a "trap." There was one time where we got can flipped... a few of them grabbed some poorly fitted Stealth Bombers, waited until the offender came back for his spoils, and blew him up without mercy.
Those that didn't share this "mindset" constantly whined about how they "couldn't mine" or "conduct their business in peace." They refused to risk their ships or equipment unless the risk was minimal and refused to alter the way they worked. Not surprisingly, they were the ones who often got blown up (I will admit... I was one of these early on).
Long story short, the former group are still more or less around, 3 years on, and operating in low-sec (with the occasional forays into null-sec). The other group has long since stopped playing.
To this day, the first group and I run into situations where we get stomped (it happens). We lose stuff, scratch our heads, and try to figure out how we can turn it around (if we can) or avoid it (sometimes you have to).
Look... in high-sec you get a high-degree of safety. You get a 24 hour warning that someone wishes you harm (when they war dec you) and you don't have to worry about ganks unless you make is easy or profitable.
Everything else I have pointed out is stuff that can be used and abused by those who have learned how to work around things as they are right now. And I doubt you want to give a further advantage to the "big guys" that you claim to be working against. Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Seranova Farreach
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
97
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Posted - 2012.12.28 09:17:00 -
[14] - Quote
Danika Princip wrote:..Why?
Also, you do realise wardecs are purely a highsec thing, right? They mean nothing for sov warfare.
thats half true.. the wardecks are there so peopel can interupt the logistical flow of ammo and resources from high to null.
or in the case of highsec alone.. a tool for greifing. |
Velicitia
Open Designs
1168
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Posted - 2012.12.28 14:35:00 -
[15] - Quote
Seranova Farreach wrote:Danika Princip wrote:..Why?
Also, you do realise wardecs are purely a highsec thing, right? They mean nothing for sov warfare. thats half true.. the wardecks are there so peopel can interupt the logistical flow of ammo and resources from high to null. or in the case of highsec alone.. a tool for greifing.
assuming, of course you're actually deccing the alt corps and freelancers making the deliveries to "close enough" where said sov-holding alliance can grab their stuff, make one jump and have it where necessary.
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Elrich Kouvo
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 18:17:00 -
[16] - Quote
Still shows there is no point of wardecs. If you wanted to stop the flow of their good you could simply set up a gate camp in null/low sec. Wardecs as they are now are used to grief players. Search the corp "Gentlemen of low moral fibre". Did they ever go after the null corp to disrupt their supply lines? I like fantasy as much as the next man, but reality is saying this tool is being used to grief players. There is no good reason for it to exist. |
Elrich Kouvo
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 18:24:00 -
[17] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Elrich Kouvo wrote:Yes but the bonds and social interaction necessary for null/low sec activity(cant at all understand why you'd call them horrors) would be able to be established. "Social interaction" is only a part of what makes a corp successful. The other part is "mentality." I've seen corps with great communication slide into failure because certain people lack the ability to think in terms of "predator/prey." One of my first corps was a great example of this. When I joined EVE, I was part of a "rookie lol-corp" that had a rather eclectic band of people within it. Some thought in the terms I described above. When a "situation" came up, they thought of ways to get around it... creating alts to spy on those who wished us harm (gaining intel on their locations and whereabouts), refitting their PvE ships for PvP and working in groups so that anyone who came looking for them would be walking into a "trap." There was one time where we got can flipped... a few of them grabbed some poorly fitted Stealth Bombers, waited until the offender came back for his spoils, and blew him up without mercy. Those that didn't share this "mindset" constantly whined about how they "couldn't mine" or "conduct their business in peace." They refused to risk their ships or equipment unless the risk was minimal and refused to alter the way they worked. Not surprisingly, they were the ones who often got blown up (I will admit... I was one of these early on). Long story short, the former group are still more or less around, 3 years on, and operating in low-sec (with the occasional forays into null-sec). The other group has long since stopped playing. To this day, the first group and I run into situations where we get stomped (it happens). We lose stuff, scratch our heads, and try to figure out how we can turn it around (if we can) or avoid it (sometimes you have to). Look... in high-sec you get a high-degree of safety. You get a 24 hour warning that someone wishes you harm (when they war dec you) and you don't have to worry about ganks unless you make it easy or profitable. The "horrors" I allude to are that you don't get that safety in low and null-sec. At all. A POS you set up in low-sec could be dropped by a major player in the area... or worse, a 0.0 entity that wants the moon you have decided to set up shop on. You won't get a warning. And having great communication won't help you solve this problem unless you figure out how to work around it (either diplomatically or by force). An example of this I can point to is an industrialist my group befriended long ago. This guy was good at building stuff... and mining. But he didn't have the ability to defend himself against large aggressors. He knew someone in my group (I forget how) and asked for help. The deal was that we defend his POS against a hostile force and he would build any faction BPOs we gave him for half price (free if it was a frigate). Because my group was not very industrially minded we accepted the offer. We saw the opportunity for getting "free" PvP and cheap ships to facilitate it... and he gained allies that could help him in an area of "expertise" he was not very good at. Eventually he moved his operations down to low-sec near us. He still gets us cheap ships, we still defend him (including escorting some of his "major deliveries"), and he even joins us in the odd PvP roam now and then when he gets bored (he even joined Faction Warfare). Everything else I have pointed out is stuff that can be used and abused by those who have learned how to work around things as they are right now. And I doubt you want to give a further advantage to the "big guys" that you claim to be working against. So people have stopped their subscriptions because of wardecs? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
1791
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 18:49:00 -
[18] - Quote
Elrich Kouvo wrote:So people have stopped their subscriptions because of wardecs? Yes. But that's not the point.
The point is that war decs are a preview of things to come... and if you can't survive one in high-sec, you DEFINITELY won't survive what happens in low and null sec (or last long in the game in general). Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
Elrich Kouvo
State War Academy Caldari State
2
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 19:01:00 -
[19] - Quote
ShahFluffers wrote:Elrich Kouvo wrote:So people have stopped their subscriptions because of wardecs? Yes. But that's not the point. The point is that war decs are a preview of things to come... and if you can't survive one in high-sec, you DEFINITELY won't survive what happens in low and null sec (or last long in the game in general). You don't think given the time that those players would have been more ready to cope with those issues of null/low sec? How much skill points did those players have? what were their goals? How much isk did they have in their wallet? Is the corp still around or did you leave? Did the wardec corp pursue you or other "targets"? Have you used the war dec feature?
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ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
1791
|
Posted - 2012.12.28 19:52:00 -
[20] - Quote
Elrich Kouvo wrote:You don't think given the time that those players would have been more ready to cope with those issues of null/low sec? I don't. As I stated in my rather long winded post... you either have the "mentality" or you don't.
Elrich Kouvo wrote:How much skill points did those players have? what were their goals? How much isk did they have in their wallet? Is the corp still around or did you leave? Did the wardec corp pursue you or other "targets"? Have you used the war dec feature?
I'll go in order...
1. By the time they left the game... at least 20 million SP. 2. Make as much money as possible. 3. Several billion ISK (which, 4 years ago, was a BIG DEAL). 4. The corp we were all a part of shut down due to "internal conflicts." I followed the "bloodthirsty bunch" into Faction War. The others set up their own corp which fell into inactivity after 6 months or so (for whatever reasons). 5. We never had anyone pursue vendettas while the corp was together. After the split, I heard that they started having people attacking them... and they were having issues figuring out what to do. I offered my advice to one of the more "agreeable" guys in the corp... but last I heard, his "bosses" rejected it because it would require they spend less time making ISK. 6. I have. Between my time in a "rookie lol-corp" and Faction War I made some ISK war deccing high-sec POSs and either getting blackmail money from their owners or selling the POS remains. There was also this one time someone looked at my CEO funny. We war decced that person too for giggles. Same story with EVE Uni. And some out-of-FW Amarr logistics corps. And some of our own militia because we were having "disagreements." Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
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Elrich Kouvo
State War Academy Caldari State
3
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Posted - 2012.12.28 20:01:00 -
[21] - Quote
1.When the war dec started, not by the time they left the game. 2.Through which means? 3. when the war dec started? 5. Elaborate on people attacking them... 6. So you did some war dec griefing then? |
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors Late Night Alliance
1791
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Posted - 2012.12.28 20:38:00 -
[22] - Quote
1. Let see... 600k SP, 1.5 mil SP, 5 mil SP, 7 mil... the list goes on. I was there for pretty much every single war dec that "rookie lol-corp" was a part of early on. We won most of those wars or had them end at a stalemate because the directors gave us good fits, showed us cheap and dirty ways to maximize damage, and diplomatically handled things (which usually resulted in us going out for "one great fight" between us and them).
2. Mining, manufacturing, MAYBE the odd wormhole mining op (which quickly stopped when they realized that safety was an issue in one).
3. Don't know. I do know for a fact that none of them ever consciously spent their money on anything that was risky.
5. I wish I could, it would make me smile and giggle (I didn't like the majority of "those" guys). All I know is that they "couldn't make money" and that most of them "logged off for a week" hoping it would pass rather than dealing with the problem.
6. "Griefing" is a strong term. And it doesn't have a set definition (I certainly don't consider any of the things I listed as "griefing"). How do you define it? Change isn't bad, but it isn't always good. Sometimes, the oldest and most simple of things can be the most elegant and effective. |
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