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Jane Schereau
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.12.29 19:01:00 -
[1] - Quote
Quote:Skill at preventing damage from penetrating the shield, including the use of shield hardeners and other advanced shield modules. Reduces the chance of damage penetrating the shield when it falls below 25% by 5% per skill level, with 0% chance at level 5.
I'm not sure I'm reading this correctly. From what I understand, if trained to 5, there is a 0% chance of damage penetrating the shield when shield is at 25% or below? Sounds too good to be true. Unless penetrating means something else...
Can anyone shed some light on this?
Thanks |
Titadine
Black Dwarf Enterprises
5
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Posted - 2012.12.29 19:06:00 -
[2] - Quote
Without the skill when your shield is below 25% there is a chance for the damage to bleed through the shield and start affecting your Armour before the shield is depleted. All the skill does is reduce/negate the chance of the bleed through effect occurring. |
Jane Schereau
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
2
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Posted - 2012.12.29 19:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
Titadine wrote:Without the skill when your shield is below 25% there is a chance for the damage to bleed through the shield and start affecting your Armour before the shield is depleted. All the skill does is reduce/negate the chance of the bleed through effect occurring.
Ah, ok. So that is what penetration means... Not a big deal for armor tankers then. Thanks! |
Titadine
Black Dwarf Enterprises
5
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Posted - 2012.12.29 19:12:00 -
[4] - Quote
Jane Schereau wrote: Ah, ok. So that is what penetration means... Not a big deal for armor tankers then. Thanks!
No Problem. |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis Mildly Sober
105
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Posted - 2012.12.29 19:25:00 -
[5] - Quote
Shield tankers dont want it to V either since bleeding through to armor slightly helps your tank |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12344
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Posted - 2012.12.29 21:37:00 -
[6] - Quote
The description of that skill is one of the worst in the game. It is pretty much completely incorrect in every way possible except for the 0% chance of bleed-through at lvl V, and even then, the description is ridiculously wrong as to why that happens.
In actuality, the mechanic behind the skill is this: All tiers of hitpoints GÇö shield, armour, and hull GÇö have a hidden stat called GÇ£uniformityGÇ¥. You can see it if you check a good item database (e.g. the full stats for a Thorax) or if you look at the full stat list in EFT and similar programs. For pretty much everything in the game, this stat is 25% for all three HP types. Uniformity determines the threshold below which you risk bleed-through. The actual mechanics behind bleed-through GÇö how it is triggered and how the damage is distributed GÇö are largely unknown.
What Tactical Shield Management does is that is simply reduces the shield uniformity by 5 percentage points per level.
At TSM 0, you have 25% uniformity. At TSM I, you have 20% unifromity GǪ At TSM V, you have 0% uniformity.
So yes, at TSM V, you have 0% chance of bleed-through, not because you have reduced the chance of it happening, but because you've reduced the threshold for when bleed-though can happen to a level where it never will GÇö you simply no longer have any shield left for the bleed-through to skip. As far as anyone has been able to determine, the actual chance that a shot will produce bleed-through never changes at all.
As mentioned, though, this is also not really an entirely desirable effect. If you're a shield tanker, you actually want your shield HP to be as close to 25% as possible, because that maximises the passive regen you get, and that increases the total amount of HP the enemy has to chew through. It is fairly easy to show (and has been shown if you ever want to search for and dig through the threads on the topic) that TSM V reduces your survivability by a fair margin unless your shield HP is immensely higher than your armour HP. The only reason to even train it to IV is that you get T2 active hardeners, and those are nice to have GÇö without them, there's a distinct chance that you wouldn't want to train the skill at all. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
Jack Miton
Aperture Harmonics K162
1161
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Posted - 2012.12.29 22:33:00 -
[7] - Quote
it's a useless skill apart from as a pre req for T2 shield hardeners at l4. |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1423
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Posted - 2012.12.29 23:11:00 -
[8] - Quote
TSM reduces the bleed threshold by 5% per level.
i.e. at level 4 the bleed threshold is between 0% and 5%.
Since you only need level 4 for T2 modules, there is little reason to train it to level 5, as it is uncommon to maintain a tank with under 5% shield. |
stoicfaux
2146
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Posted - 2012.12.30 00:53:00 -
[9] - Quote
Has anyone actually *seen* damage leak through their shields?
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Eternal Error
Immortalis Inc. Shadow Cartel
259
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Posted - 2012.12.30 01:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Has anyone actually *seen* damage leak through their shields?
Mine? No. Other people's? yes |
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Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12345
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Posted - 2012.12.30 01:24:00 -
[11] - Quote
stoicfaux wrote:Has anyone actually *seen* damage leak through their shields? Yes. Back when a bunch of us were testing to try to figure out how it really worked, we could produce bleed-through on a regular basis (and likewise intentionally keep it from not happening, which is how the whole GÇ£reduces the chanceGÇ¥ description was proven wrong).
It's not a particularly high probability GÇö maybe the chance actually is 25%, if you're below the threshold GÇö and even then, only some of the damage actually skips the shield iirc. So the effect is rare and pretty small when it actually happens, so it's easy to miss unless you're actively looking for it (or shooting something with a whole lot of shield). GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
Eofina
The Black Rabbits Academy The Gurlstas Associates
14
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Posted - 2012.12.31 15:27:00 -
[12] - Quote
I'm not sure on the mechanics of it. Is the bleed through a fraction of the damage going past Shield into Armor, or Shield damage and then more into Armor?
Armor Damage = Full Damage - Shield Damage ?
or
Total Damage = (Full Damage - Shield Damage) + Shield Damage ?
So say for simplicity the attack does 500dps and 100dps Bleeds through to Armor
Would the Total Damage be 400 Shield and 100 Armor?
or
Would the Total Damage be 500 Shield and 100 Armor? |
Skurga
Cooperative Industries Corium Fission
1
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Posted - 2012.12.31 16:51:00 -
[13] - Quote
Eofina wrote:
Would the Total Damage be 400 Shield and 100 Armor?
this....the other way around it wouldn't be usefull to not train the skill to 5. See Tippias post:
Tippia wrote:As mentioned, though, this is also not really an entirely desirable effect. If you're a shield tanker, you actually want your shield HP to be as close to 25% as possible, because that maximises the passive regen you get, and that increases the total amount of HP the enemy has to chew through.
or am I missing something? |
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
12413
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Posted - 2012.12.31 22:53:00 -
[14] - Quote
Eofina wrote:So say for simplicity the attack does 500dps and 100dps Bleeds through to Armor
Would the Total Damage be 400 Shield and 100 Armor?
or
Would the Total Damage be 500 Shield and 100 Armor? For example purposes only, it would be 400+100. The damage that bleeds through to armour does not affect your shield GÇö it wouldn't be bleed-through otherwise, now would it?
Of course, in the real world, it will not look like that because, as a shield tanker, you will most likely have higher shield resists on your shield than your armour, so while those might be the raw numbers, what you'll actually see is something like 50 shield + 50 armour damage even though your shields bore the brunt of it. GÇ£If you're not willing to fight for what you have in GëívGëí you don't deserve it, and you will lose it.GÇ¥
Get a good start: newbie skill plan. |
GetSirrus
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
17
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Posted - 2013.01.02 02:45:00 -
[15] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2213464#post2213464
interesting, wonder if this means that CCP intends to change how this skill works? |
Jane Schereau
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
4
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Posted - 2013.01.02 04:35:00 -
[16] - Quote
Thanks everyone for your replies and explanations. |
Innorgin
Under the Ladar
0
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Posted - 2013.02.19 17:39:00 -
[17] - Quote
I've actually recently heard that TSMV is actually good because the bleed-through damage is actually 'extra' damage and the math being done is wrong.
Discuss |
Zhilia Mann
Tide Way Out Productions
1005
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Posted - 2013.02.19 17:43:00 -
[18] - Quote
Innorgin wrote:I've actually recently heard that TSMV is actually good because the bleed-through damage is actually 'extra' damage and the math being done is wrong.
Discuss
Source? |
Bizzaro Stormy MurphDog
Homowners
35
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Posted - 2013.02.19 20:12:00 -
[19] - Quote
Innorgin wrote:I've actually recently heard that TSMV is actually good because the bleed-through damage is actually 'extra' damage and the math being done is wrong.
Discuss
I've heard that TSM V is actually bad, because the bleed-through damage actually operates to "bleed" isk into your wallet due to a coding error that confuses damage done with isk earned.
Discuss |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis
189
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Posted - 2013.02.19 21:07:00 -
[20] - Quote
GetSirrus wrote:https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2213464#post2213464
interesting, wonder if this means that CCP intends to change how this skill works?
I'm not sure how you could derive "we want to change TSM" from that post.
Granted they changed the afterburner skill. But that doesn't indicate an impending change to TSM. |
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Jaxem Rau
Spatial Anomalies
23
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Posted - 2013.02.19 21:54:00 -
[21] - Quote
Anyone have an official Dev reply about how this skill actually works? Searching these forums and other forums shows conflicting answers. In some versions these bleed-through is a percentage of the damage being split between the shields and armor (Making skill level V bad) and in others the bleedthrough is extra damage that gets applied to both (Making skill level V slightly more useful).
-J |
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat Working Stiffs
1585
|
Posted - 2013.02.20 20:01:00 -
[22] - Quote
Jaxem Rau wrote:Anyone have an official Dev reply about how this skill actually works? Searching these forums and other forums shows conflicting answers. In some versions these bleed-through is a percentage of the damage being split between the shields and armor (Making skill level V bad) and in others the bleedthrough is extra damage that gets applied to both (Making skill level V slightly more useful).
-J You must be looking in the wrong threads, as it has been tested. If you doubt, test it yourself.
Goa Vibe wrote:RESULTS:
BLEED-THRU HAS A SMALL PERCENTAGE CHANCE OF OCCURRING. MOST OF TIME BLEED-THRU DAMAGE WHEN BELOW 5% DOES NOT OCCUR! DAMAGE TRANSFERS, THERE IS NO ADDITIONAL DAMAGE. BLEED-THRU DAMAGE IS APPLIED AT ARMOR RESIST RATE, SO IN THAT HIT WHEN BLEED-THRU OCCURS, SHIELD TAKES LESS DAMAGE WHEN ARMOR DAMAGE OCCURS. http://community.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1279501&page=3#64
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Jaxem Rau
Spatial Anomalies
24
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Posted - 2013.02.23 03:36:00 -
[23] - Quote
Tried as you suggested. tried 5 different times for about 20 mins each time. Have not been able to get bleedthrough at all. Have TSM at skill level 4 and was being shot by a missile ship (Since easier to know exact damage). Have not been able to get any bleedthrough. Guess I have been unlucky so far. Will see if I get a chance to run some more tests.
-J
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