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Zarnak Wulf
In Exile.
962
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Posted - 2013.01.20 20:09:00 -
[151] - Quote
The two largest and most experienced Minmatar alliances still fight as if the war zone is only 30 systems when in truth it has expanded to the full 70. That always helps. 'Home systems' are also an archaic idea in FW. You have to be willing to move. System ownership is directly related to your presence in the area. The Minmatar can sally forth from mother Arzad to Sosan or Tararan, conquer them, and retire back to their home system as much as they want. Because they don't live in Sosan or Tararan those conquests are fleeting. When fighting for Dal or Vard we learned that Iron Oxide could commit to 5 hours of deplexing a day on weekdays. That equated into 10% contested movement that we would have to offset. It was a simple mathematical equation because they did not have an immediate presence in Dal.
I suspect that large alliances in FW are inefficient. Yes you can project overwhelming power in an area for a period of time. But as I pointed out above, you can work around that. It also doesn't work too well when there are always 5 or so fires to put out. I hope in this regard at least CCP is taking notes for Null Sec. |
Wiedzmin 3
Affinity Fan Club
2
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Posted - 2013.01.20 21:22:00 -
[152] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:tbh the system was never broken just with the land grab and then people figuring it out took time for war zones to adjust im watching in on the Minnie / amarr war zone it now seems interesting when we was there it was all the minnies way and got boring. But total domination is achievable to any side thats corps actually work together like the gallentes did if caldaris could have put aside there differences maybe they could have done something about it . What i did notice wen in minnie space the amarr after the land grab went the same way as caldaris did with in house fighting but since the recent patch u guys seem to have actually bonded more and it shows on the fw map therewasnogallentetotaldominationstoplyingpleasealsomystylewithtotallackofpunctuationhasmoreswagthanyours ................................ |
SaltyandSweet
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
32
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Posted - 2013.01.20 21:26:00 -
[153] - Quote
Wiedzmin 3 wrote:Hurr Durr THE HURR IS STRONG YOUNG DERPAWON Im So Baller I Buy Plex Cuz im too lazy to do PVE! |
Wiedzmin 3
Affinity Fan Club
2
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Posted - 2013.01.20 21:32:00 -
[154] - Quote
You mad, bro. |
SaltyandSweet
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
32
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Posted - 2013.01.20 21:42:00 -
[155] - Quote
well, the way you jumped on me i say you have a ***** envy goin about ya. Im So Baller I Buy Plex Cuz im too lazy to do PVE! |
ground ctrl
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
33
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Posted - 2013.01.20 23:35:00 -
[156] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:The two largest and most experienced Minmatar alliances still fight as if the war zone is only 30 systems when in truth it has expanded to the full 70. That always helps. 'Home systems' are also an archaic idea in FW. You have to be willing to move. System ownership is directly related to your presence in the area. The Minmatar can sally forth from mother Arzad to Sosan or Tararan, conquer them, and retire back to their home system as much as they want. Because they don't live in Sosan or Tararan those conquests are fleeting. When fighting for Dal or Vard we learned that Iron Oxide could commit to 5 hours of deplexing a day on weekdays. That equated into 10% contested movement that we would have to offset. It was a simple mathematical equation because they did not have an immediate presence in Dal. I suspect that large alliances in FW are inefficient. Yes you can project overwhelming power in an area for a period of time. But as I pointed out above, you can work around that. It also doesn't work too well when there are always 5 or so fires to put out. I hope in this regard at least CCP is taking notes for Null Sec.
I agree that the fact that the war zone is spread out is a very nice feature of faction war.
I still think a large null sec alliance would be able to mop up if they were lead in a decently smart way. |
Arkenai Wyrnspire
Turalyon Plus
3
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Posted - 2013.01.20 23:46:00 -
[157] - Quote
T1 LP penalties should not be there. -10% at most imho. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
956
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Posted - 2013.01.20 23:47:00 -
[158] - Quote
ground ctrl wrote:I agree that the fact that the war zone is spread out is a very nice feature of faction war. I still think a large null sec alliance would be able to mop up if they were lead in a decently smart way. Without counting those corps in FW alliances, Gallente FW has 6791 kills this month (as of this writing). Again, this does not count FW corps in alliances like D'n'D, SPCA., SPDR, etc...
Compare that number with the rest of Eve Online.
Let them come. More pew the better. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
956
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Posted - 2013.01.20 23:49:00 -
[159] - Quote
Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:T1 LP penalties should not be there. -10% at most imho. Just pretend that novice plexes give you 5k LP as a baseline. Voila, no penalty! |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
180
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Posted - 2013.01.21 12:03:00 -
[160] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Arkenai Wyrnspire wrote:T1 LP penalties should not be there. -10% at most imho. Just pretend that novice plexes give you 5k LP as a baseline. Voila, no penalty!
Or you could be in Amarr and plex in Caldari space and get Tier3 LP. Get space rich while losing. :)
But we wouldn't do that.......... Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
958
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Posted - 2013.01.21 12:17:00 -
[161] - Quote
Oh, this is so unfair. First, a big, bad 0.0 alliance has invaded our space, and now we have to deal with all of these Amarr farmers coming over to our space. The horror. FW is a broken mess. I am going to start 10 topics on the forums saying the same thing! |
IbanezLaney
The Church of Awesome Caldari State Capturing
180
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Posted - 2013.01.21 12:36:00 -
[162] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Oh, this is so unfair. First, a big, bad 0.0 alliance has invaded our space, and now we have to deal with all of these Amarr farmers coming over to our space. The horror. FW is a broken mess. I am going to start 10 topics on the forums saying the same thing!
Only 10? Fix this **** See Sea Pea. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
958
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Posted - 2013.01.21 12:54:00 -
[163] - Quote
IbanezLaney wrote:Only 10? I can start more. Trust me. I can start way more than 10.
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Mutnin
SQUIDS.
391
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Posted - 2013.01.21 13:31:00 -
[164] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Oh, this is so unfair. First, a big, bad 0.0 alliance has invaded our space, and now we have to deal with all of these Amarr farmers coming over to our space. The horror. FW is a broken mess. I am going to start 10 topics on the forums saying the same thing!
I'm pretty sure this is our que to say everything is fair and balanced, FW is working as intended. Get over it, you can just role-play you don't need to make ISK and you can dock in Villore.
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Pinky Feldman
Gank Bangers Moar Tears
488
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Posted - 2013.01.21 14:08:00 -
[165] - Quote
ALUCARD 1208 wrote:tbh the system was never broken just with the land grab and then people figuring it out took time for war zones to adjust im watching in on the Minnie / amarr war zone it now seems interesting when we was there it was all the minnies way and got boring. But total domination is achievable to any side thats corps actually work together like the gallentes did if caldaris could have put aside there differences maybe they could have done something about it . What i did notice wen in minnie space the amarr after the land grab went the same way as caldaris did with in house fighting but since the recent patch u guys seem to have actually bonded more and it shows on the fw map
If you really think that the Amarr's ability to work better together is much different now than it was two months ago, you're sorely mistaken. The major groups in the Amarr have gotten along with and worked together as well as, if not better than any of the other 3 militias. It's easy to say the Amarr are disorganized and don't work together when you're losing the warzone and getting blobbed in Kamela while theres a 20 man gang on the other side of the warzone pushing the map, but that isn't really an indicator of disorganization, nor is the lack of public fleets. If a 30 man blob can't find a fight, then why should they do an open militia fleet and be able to find even fewer fights? The groups within Amarr that are capable of pulling weight are organized when it matters for us to be organized. A month ago, we lost the Aset pocket and people cried that it was becuase we were disorganized, then we kept pushing that pocket and as Amarr space fell lots of people panicked saying we didn't care about militia and would lose because we were disorganized and uninterested in defending our home space. We ended up just ignoring those people and kept pushing Aset, ignoring the Kamela area completely, and now that we have more systems than the Minmatar we're suddenly way more organized? Give me a break.
In fact, I would be willing to bet that most people aren't aware of the real factors or reasons why their militias are winning or losing at any given time and the groups and actions that actually contribute in meaningful ways to the warzone. Most people look at Dal and assume that the reason it fell was because of the militia pulling together and winning fights/plexes in a 4 hr stretch during EU TZ the day of the capture, while they ignore or are ignorant of Skunkworks/TMFED/I.Law's 2-week tug-of-war getting it past 80% twice, the 12-hr long I.Law and Fweddit plexing fleet the night before, or the fact we wanted to take the system enough in our strong timezones that it would have fallen eventually.
The moar you cry the less you pee |
ground ctrl
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
33
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Posted - 2013.01.21 15:08:00 -
[166] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Oh, this is so unfair. First, a big, bad 0.0 alliance has invaded our space, and now we have to deal with all of these Amarr farmers coming over to our space. The horror. FW is a broken mess. I am going to start 10 topics on the forums saying the same thing!
XG you can not get anything straight. I don't think anyone said the current system is "unfair." Its just that it tends to snowball in favor of the side that is winning, and that it is a boring grind to do allot of these plexes because no one even knows your there.
Hey if you are having fun multiboxing your alts orbitting buttons for hours on end, great. But stop crying because everyone else doesn't share your love for that. |
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc. Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
490
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Posted - 2013.01.21 15:29:00 -
[167] - Quote
If anything, the recent Amarr surge should be reason enough to get to work on limiting the extent the generic farmer has on occupancy. Sincerely doubt the majority of plexing is done by mains or even primary alts .. it has quite simply been way too fast.
CCP keeps saying they will tweak system when flaws are made apparent .. well CCP .. how is single anaemic rat, the death of which stops all future spawns, in plexes working out so far? Tier system is slightly better than the FarmWarGäó version, even if skewed enormously in the 'winners' favour .. keep it as is but do your damnedest to nuke farming .. or limit it to a token effect and keep farming, whichever lets you get your drink on, on schedule.
Was actually working pretty well in the short period where we had the old spawns with must-kill rule in effect .. tags were flowing like never before (exact opposite now) and farming was so involved that it was only done by a handful.
Approximate that situation, add a couple of rats per plex, have variable and much shorter time in which to kill them to prevent future spawns (ex. Novice/Small: 2 minutes, Medium:3-4 minutes. Large: 5 minutes) .. should be enough to make frig plexing in all but large a thing of the past .. wasn't it part of the plex changes that the intention was to make people use appropriate ships or gang up?
PS: Before some idiot says "OMG, Amarr is ahead and now want to nerf plexing to hold their space!" .. reset, give all space to minnies, wait until it turns .. makes no difference. The plexing game will be better for it, markets will stabilize, tags will be available and we get more pew because people can't use 'insert cheapest available frig with 50dps here' with stabs and cloak any more. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
960
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 15:47:00 -
[168] - Quote
Veshta Yoshida wrote:If anything, the recent Amarr surge should be reason enough to ... . give CCP a little credit. The system is not so unbalanced that a side can't come back from near total death. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
960
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 15:50:00 -
[169] - Quote
ground ctrl wrote:... Its just that it tends to snowball in favor of the side that is winning, and that it is a boring grind to do allot of these plexes because no one even knows your there. 1. Snowball has been proven false. 2. You're still doing it wrong. |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
393
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 16:32:00 -
[170] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:ground ctrl wrote:... Its just that it tends to snowball in favor of the side that is winning, and that it is a boring grind to do allot of these plexes because no one even knows your there. 1. Snowball has been proven false. 2. You're still doing it wrong.
Not really. The snowball still happens, it's just that we have found out perhaps there is a way to recover from it. The problem is it still largely revolves around armies of alts farming LP's not PVP. |
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
960
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 16:41:00 -
[171] - Quote
Mutnin wrote: Not really. The snowball still happens, it's just that we have found out perhaps there is a way to recover from it.
Fair enough. And you're nitpicking.
Quote:The problem is it still largely revolves around armies of alts farming LP's not PVP. Meaning perhaps this new system just turns into another flip/flop back and forth like we had from the last system, showing it's no better than what we had before. If you don't want a system to flip back and forth then maybe you should live there. Why do you think you are entitled to control it if you don't live there? |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
393
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Posted - 2013.01.21 16:50:00 -
[172] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Mutnin wrote: Not really. The snowball still happens, it's just that we have found out perhaps there is a way to recover from it.
Fair enough. And you're nitpicking. Quote:The problem is it still largely revolves around armies of alts farming LP's not PVP. Meaning perhaps this new system just turns into another flip/flop back and forth like we had from the last system, showing it's no better than what we had before. If you don't want a system to flip back and forth then maybe you should live there. Why do you think you are entitled to control it if you don't live there?
It's not nitpicking.. I've always been against any farmer backed Sov System.
I don't think anyone is entitled to anything. What I'm saying is the system still revolves largely around farmers and it would be much harder to take the systems if the farmers were not involved.
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X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
960
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 17:17:00 -
[173] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:It's not nitpicking.. I've always been against any farmer backed Sov System.
I don't think anyone is entitled to anything. What I'm saying is the system still revolves largely around farmers and it would be much harder to take the systems if the farmers were not involved.
CCP cannot come up with a pvp-only mechanic for sovereignty warfare and the reason is clear. You can't pvp if one side chooses to not engage. That said:
The occupancy system revolves around farmers (minimal force projection) in 1) backwater systems, where 2) the other side doesn't want to defend/live. And that, tbh, is fine. Not a big deal. Eve's version of Guerilla warfare. You have to have "boots on the ground", "sustained presence", etc... to run off the farmers and control a system.
Why people think they ought to be able to live in Orvolle or Onnamon and be able to win FW at the same time is confusing to me. Why people think they ought to be able to live in 3-4 low sec systems, never undock, and win FW is equally confusing.
If your side can't be bothered with taking and defending at least 21% of the systems (to get to baseline Tier 2 which we all know easily supports a FW lifestyle), then that's a "you" problem. If the other side decides to not engage, then that's a "they" problem. CCP can't solve "you" and "they" problems. |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
393
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 17:30:00 -
[174] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Mutnin wrote:It's not nitpicking.. I've always been against any farmer backed Sov System.
I don't think anyone is entitled to anything. What I'm saying is the system still revolves largely around farmers and it would be much harder to take the systems if the farmers were not involved.
CCP cannot come up with a pvp-only mechanic for sovereignty warfare and the reason is clear. You can't pvp if one side chooses to not engage. That said: The occupancy system revolves around farmers (minimal force projection) in 1) backwater systems, where 2) the other side doesn't want to defend/live. And that, tbh, is fine. Not a big deal. Eve's version of Guerilla warfare. You have to have "boots on the ground", "sustained presence", etc... to run off the farmers and control a system. Why people think they ought to be able to live in Orvolle or Onnamon and be able to win FW at the same time is confusing to me. Why people think they ought to be able to live in 3-4 low sec systems, never undock, and win FW is equally confusing. If your side can't be bothered with taking and defending at least 21% of the systems (to get to baseline Tier 2 which we all know easily supports a FW lifestyle), then that's a "you" problem. If the other side decides to not engage, then that's a "they" problem. CCP can't solve "you" and "they" problems.
To be fair, the reason many of us moved to high sec is because of the farmers. I lived in Enaluri most of the time I've been active in FW & prior to that it was Sujarento. It wasn't until CCP made FW into a farmvile Sov War that I decided to base mostly out of Onn & Kin next door. I tried to keep Kin under-control but it was a waste of time trying to undo what the farmers did each day.
Even still I always had a lot of assets in Kinnakka but to be perfectly honest, Onn was a better base because it allowed us to insert a gang into low sec just about anywhere in Blackrise with out you Gal having intel on us. We could enter via Kin, Akadgi, Ikos or a few jumps away up in Mara or via Ohbochi. We could also move to the other side of the war front and enter by Hysera. All of this with out being on anyone's radar.
Yes there is advantages to having a low sec base, but if you have the right location in high sec, it's just as good and often better. Basing out of say Nourv is bad because it has only one easy access point, but as far as ease of movement you simply can't beat the little pocket around Onn. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
961
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 17:39:00 -
[175] - Quote
What you are describing is the effect of lack of timezone coverage. Nothing CCP can do about that. But you can - team up with off-TZ corp/alliance, or be willing to move when your system gets taken.
You are also telling us that you don't want to move your assets when you lose, or that you don't want to be based in a less active location. That's fine too. Not a CCP problem. |
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
394
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Posted - 2013.01.21 19:50:00 -
[176] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:What you are describing is the effect of lack of timezone coverage. Nothing CCP can do about that. But you can - team up with off-TZ corp/alliance, or be willing to move when your system gets taken.
You are also telling us that you don't want to move your assets when you lose, or that you don't want to be based in a less active location. That's fine too. Not a CCP problem.
No, I'm saying that I'm not going to put the effort into trying to out do a bunch of farmers. For every plex they run, it means I have to run one in return that will almost always mean zero chance of PVP. People get tired of chasing farmers because they know they wont fight and all you do is chase them from plex to plex wasting time that could otherwise be spent spinning a ship in a station or looking for actual PVP.
When we had to move from Enaluari at the start of the Sov War, I had no problem evacing my assets, granted I didn't like doing it, but it was a loss of a system due to PVP. We simply couldn't match your fleets at that time. Losing the system because you were out PVPed or couldn't match the other side is one thing, but losing it because you are simply not going to waste your time chasing stabbed atrons is another. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
961
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 19:56:00 -
[177] - Quote
Mutnin wrote: When we had to move from Enaluari at the start of the Sov War, I had no problem evacing my assets, granted I didn't like doing it, but it was a loss of a system due to PVP. We simply couldn't match your fleets at that time. Losing the system because you were out PVPed or couldn't match the other side is one thing, but losing it because you are simply not going to waste your time chasing stabbed atrons is another.
In the end Dark-Rising captured Enaluri, not farmers. Carry on.
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Mutnin
SQUIDS.
395
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Posted - 2013.01.21 21:37:00 -
[178] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:Mutnin wrote: When we had to move from Enaluari at the start of the Sov War, I had no problem evacing my assets, granted I didn't like doing it, but it was a loss of a system due to PVP. We simply couldn't match your fleets at that time. Losing the system because you were out PVPed or couldn't match the other side is one thing, but losing it because you are simply not going to waste your time chasing stabbed atrons is another.
In the end Dark-Rising captured Enaluri, not farmers. Carry on.
You apparently didn't read what I said. I clearly said I never had a problem with losing Enaluri at that time because it was lost via PVP not by farmers. I have issues with farmers. It was the whole farmville Sov War that started after that that I don't like.
Also I'm talking about at the start of the station lock outs not the second time we lost Enaluri. Dark Rising wasn't even in FW at that time if I'm not mistaken. These fights happened the week leading up to the original changes to FW and at the introduction of the station lock outs. |
X Gallentius
Justified Chaos
965
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 21:43:00 -
[179] - Quote
Mutnin wrote:Also I'm talking about at the start of the station lock outs not the second time we lost Enaluri. Dark Rising wasn't even in FW at that time if I'm not mistaken. It's not nearly so bad now. Systems are pretty much stable with the exception of players trying to gain occupancy. If potential station lockouts are the reason, then nothing can be done. |
Cearain
Caldari Provisions Caldari State
795
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 00:53:00 -
[180] - Quote
X Gallentius wrote:ground ctrl wrote:... Its just that it tends to snowball in favor of the side that is winning, and that it is a boring grind to do allot of these plexes because no one even knows your there. 1. Snowball has been proven false. 2. You're still doing it wrong.
Its true amarr came back to tier 3. It seems very few are caring about the tiers or occuapancy. Gallente pretty much stayed at tier 4 even though they could have been at tier 5. They openly said they would give back the caldari home systems so they could still get good fights. Sure enough the caldari took the systems. Minmatar never really maxed out the tiers they were able to achieve.
It seems people are not really all that interested in the tiers. Personally I know I am not interested in "winning the war." I know what it takes to win the war and it does not sound fun.
I will be stopping by caldari gallente fw space as a neutral so I don't need to waste time orbitting a button just to dock. You better not venture out alone. If I want to make isk I can run fw missions with an alt.
The thing is this is a sandbox so there is no way to "do it wrong." Orbit buttons in empty systems if you want. Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815
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