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Quantum Mass
Quantum Wave Incorporated
14
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Posted - 2013.01.16 13:24:00 -
[1] - Quote
I was thinking about this today after seeing mining bots again on eve.
1) A timer of some sort between 2 hours and 3 hours.
2) A button that will appear at random on the GUI screen. (This so it can not be done by a bot prog)
3) This button will have a timer say 15 mins to allow PVPer`s the time to press it OR
3a) The timer only being on mining barges (if that type of coding can be done)
Any Comments or improvements please post them.
I for one am sick of bots!.
Let the WAR BEGIN!
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J ThreeTears Brimstoan
The Market Monstr Accumulative
0
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Posted - 2013.01.16 13:30:00 -
[2] - Quote
I am a miner that is sick of seeing all of these bots mining away MY profits. Other MMO's have anti-botting programs/scripts/randoms in place why doesn't EVE? I Second this Idea. I don't know how it will be done or how it should be put into action but it is time for some sort of anti-bot in EVE online.
-I'm a pissed off miner and I approve of this msg- |
Lovely Dumplings
Lambda Mining
40
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 13:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
With as advanced as bot coding is, it's very difficult to fight them, as they look like a normal person playing to software analysis. Add into that, most bots in professional RMT companies are actually monitored by a real person. Bot hunting would require real-time eyes-on by CCP, and I don't see that happening soon. |
MainDrain
7th Deepari Defence Armada
100
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 13:40:00 -
[4] - Quote
Quantum Mass wrote:I was thinking about this today after seeing mining bots again on eve.
1) A timer of some sort between 2 hours and 3 hours.
2) A button that will appear at random on the GUI screen. (This so it can not be done by a bot prog)
3) This button will have a timer say 15 mins to allow PVPer`s the time to press it OR
3a) The timer only being on mining barges (if that type of coding can be done)
Any Comments or improvements please post them.
I for one am sick of bots!.
Let the WAR BEGIN!
Fairly sure bots can deal with random buttons appearing on screen, and could probably click and clear it faster than a real person.
Mining bots (in high sec anyway) are down a large amount in the few years ive been playing. The biggest botting issue is out in null running and farming PVE content.
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J ThreeTears Brimstoan
The Market Monstr Accumulative
1
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Posted - 2013.01.16 14:01:00 -
[5] - Quote
This anti-bot program would hopefully be something as simple as a prerecorded script --->" #run at #interval for #time" sort of thing which could be tagged right into the client during the next update AND would cover all EVE players. I'm sorry but mining for 10-20m/hour is killing this game. Most botters have purchased mining bots "Aka using RMT" which is against the rules, and I'm pretty sure we'd all be better off if ores were worth mining. Everyone says "But the market will go up by like a million" it might spike for a short time, but it would rebalance with all of the mission runners who sell their loot and the Indy guys who make stuff. If burn jita can go off without a hitch, I think massive PVP fleets shouldn't have a problem having a battle that lasts less than the 2-3 hour window. Anyone else feel like bringing their "Logic" against this idea? |
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
40
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Posted - 2013.01.16 14:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
I agree that something needs to be done...
Anouther poster in anouther tread, Mentioned having at times bigger groups of rats spawn... Example the game checks whats in the asteroid belt and then spawns a small fleet of rats, it senses a orca and a hulk, then spawns a few cruisers and a few frigates... as a player id just warp out and go to next belt... see these as just rare dangerous spawns out of the ordinary... thoughts ? |
Lovely Dumplings
Lambda Mining
40
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:08:00 -
[7] - Quote
J ThreeTears Brimstoan wrote:This anti-bot program would hopefully be something as simple as a prerecorded script --->" #run at #interval for #time" sort of thing which could be tagged right into the client during the next update AND would cover all EVE players. I'm sorry but mining for 10-20m/hour is killing this game. Most botters have purchased mining bots "Aka using RMT" which is against the rules, and I'm pretty sure we'd all be better off if ores were worth mining. Everyone says "But the market will go up by like a million" it might spike for a short time, but it would rebalance with all of the mission runners who sell their loot and the Indy guys who make stuff. If burn jita can go off without a hitch, I think massive PVP fleets shouldn't have a problem having a battle that lasts less than the 2-3 hour window. Anyone else feel like bringing their "Logic" against this idea?
The problem is actually doing it. Sure, you can throw your hands up and say "just code it", but bot programs have gotten sophisticated enough that they're undetectable by software analysis. That means, the risk of false positive is too high, compared to the hit rate. There are bots out there that operate in random fashion, use random delayed "clicks", warp around like humans, and some can even respond when prompted.
Good "bot control" requires frequent, eyes-on checking of suspect players. It's expensive in manhours and $$$. |
Verity Sovereign
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
358
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Posted - 2013.01.16 14:13:00 -
[8] - Quote
and how will you ensure this doesn't affect AFK cloaking? |
Quantum Mass
Quantum Wave Incorporated
15
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Posted - 2013.01.16 14:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Verity Sovereign wrote:and how will you ensure this doesn't affect AFK cloaking?
as it could be tied in to the coding for strip miners then it would only affect that.
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J ThreeTears Brimstoan
The Market Monstr Accumulative
1
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Posted - 2013.01.16 14:31:00 -
[10] - Quote
1.) how long do you afk cloak for? The general Idea of this anti-bot program would be at random times (within a 2-3 hour period)
2.) It is easy to just throw your hands up and say "Program it", no it's not easy to do the actual programming. But every bot has to buy 2 or more plex per month with isk. 1 to keep the account going and a second one (or more) for resale for IRL money. CCP is losing massive ammounts of money because of this. Think of an EVE universe with more than 20-30k REAL players...wouldn't it be that much more fun? Well, botters keep the prices of everything in the market down. Which means that 14 day trial guy will make a MAX of about 100-200m isk. He will say, "This game is not worth my time", thus CCP loses another player. So now they are losing player AND plex. Plex= IRL money to CCP or some Korean ISK farmer, they should choose to take it back from the Korean ISK farmers...just sayin.
3.) If a crap game like runescape which, until recently (About a year or so ago) was played in a web browser and only charged 5.95 usd per month for the paid version, can utilize multiple (And I mean double digit) anti-bot programs...I'm pretty sure that a company that has enough fans to hold a 'Fanfest' can muster some sort of simple injection style code and work their way up to the more complex things.
4.) If it costs lots of man hours and money to have "Anti-botter eyes" on people, why NOT look into hiring a programmer who can play duck hunt with anti-bot programs? It would save them tons of hours, and tons of money. It would also free up some of those employees to do more important things like writing more content or implementing new expansions or building new servers out of old pizza boxes.
5.) Wanna know a secret? Blizzard came out with a bunch of games/updates/expansions/revisions because my friend and I approached them with a simple idea (Random Code Generator) for ALL ingame purchases, now look at them. Making billions of dollars a year. Funny how things fall into place when you free up a few extra developers. |
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MainDrain
7th Deepari Defence Armada
100
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:44:00 -
[11] - Quote
Fey Ivory wrote:I agree that something needs to be done...
Anouther poster in anouther tread, Mentioned having at times bigger groups of rats spawn... Example the game checks whats in the asteroid belt and then spawns a small fleet of rats, it senses a orca and a hulk, then spawns a few cruisers and a few frigates... as a player id just warp out and go to next belt... see these as just rare dangerous spawns out of the ordinary... thoughts ?
that was my original comment, ive noticed a dev has made a similar mention to that in past few days in the NPC Ai thread about how they want to decrease number of rats in a mission site, but buff their stats. I feel the two should go hand in hand together. |
J ThreeTears Brimstoan
The Market Monstr Accumulative
2
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Posted - 2013.01.16 15:19:00 -
[12] - Quote
MainDrain wrote:Fey Ivory wrote:I agree that something needs to be done...
Anouther poster in anouther tread, Mentioned having at times bigger groups of rats spawn... Example the game checks whats in the asteroid belt and then spawns a small fleet of rats, it senses a orca and a hulk, then spawns a few cruisers and a few frigates... as a player id just warp out and go to next belt... see these as just rare dangerous spawns out of the ordinary... thoughts ? that was my original comment, ive noticed a dev has made a similar mention to that in past few days in the NPC Ai thread about how they want to decrease number of rats in a mission site, but buff their stats. I feel the two should go hand in hand together.
I agree on both parts. The more anti-bot programs there are, the more active players will not only have to EVEolve <---get it, but also the more fun EVE players will have. This game has broken ground in MMO's for a while (Quoting a website which I'm having a hard time recalling --->) "CCP has Developed some serious advantages over the competition and has revolutionized many aspects in the MMO field across many different Genres. We Look forward to seeing what will come next." (<--- not exact quote but pretty darn close to what they said) It's true, EVE is hands down THE ABSOLUTE BEST MMO that I've played, but they are seriously lacking in the rules enforcement. (I don't mean cracking down on scammers because I think scammers bring a unique mechanic to the gameplay)
To CCP: Why crack down on people who buy ISK and not crack down on the ISK farmers? It's like saying I want my wife to be half pregnant. Either you want kids or you don't. Simple. Then again, it's not me losing bunches and bunches of money, and it IS your game and YOU'RE the ones who decide what happens. I haven't slept in over 30 hours so I'm also sorry if I sound like I have sand in my vajayjay |
Hakan MacTrew
Caledonian Heavy Industries Sick N' Twisted
218
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 15:29:00 -
[13] - Quote
Ok, so bot mining brings in about 15m an hour. And your not so well thought out plan at least tries to deal with the scroat sacks, but how much does bot missioning bring in? How does fopcusing on strip miners help with that? MODULAR DRONES
MORE ORE SHIPS |
Quantum Mass
Quantum Wave Incorporated
15
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 15:36:00 -
[14] - Quote
Hakan MacTrew wrote:Ok, so bot mining brings in about 15m an hour. And your not so well thought out plan at least tries to deal with the scroat sacks, but how much does bot missioning bring in? How does fopcusing on strip miners help with that?
Topic is BOT MINING we not talking about missions BUT...it might be used for that too.... |
Lovely Dumplings
Lambda Mining
40
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 15:39:00 -
[15] - Quote
Quantum Mass wrote:Hakan MacTrew wrote:Ok, so bot mining brings in about 15m an hour. And your not so well thought out plan at least tries to deal with the scroat sacks, but how much does bot missioning bring in? How does fopcusing on strip miners help with that? Topic is BOT MINING we not talking about missions BUT...it might be used for that too....
The amount made with bot mining is peanuts, compared to mission bots. 10-20mil an hour vs something like 400-500mil. |
J ThreeTears Brimstoan
The Market Monstr Accumulative
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 15:41:00 -
[16] - Quote
Hakan MacTrew wrote:Ok, so bot mining brings in about 15m an hour. And your not so well thought out plan at least tries to deal with the scroat sacks, but how much does bot missioning bring in? How does fopcusing on strip miners help with that?
Good question. At this point we're mainly just throwing around ideas. I think we should try to focus as much on missioning as we do on mining (Anti-botting at least), because mission runner have to potential to make waaay more Isk/hour. I think that the previously stated "Make the mission rats crazy hard to kill" idea is going to be one of the best solutions for this but I don't mission run much so my viewpoint on that game mechanic is not strong enough to make a real argument for/against it, but the logic of that idea does sound solid. |
Fey Ivory
Center for Advanced Studies Gallente Federation
40
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 16:01:00 -
[17] - Quote
Got to start some where, i dont really care how people make money in Eve, as long as its a human, otherwise, id just petition for CCP to make me a special mission drone class ultra, that i could send out that did missions for me and isks came running in... what they make and how much these botters make is not the issue, the issue is that its against the principles of the game... |
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
381
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 16:14:00 -
[18] - Quote
Fey Ivory wrote:I agree that something needs to be done...
Anouther poster in anouther tread, Mentioned having at times bigger groups of rats spawn... Example the game checks whats in the asteroid belt and then spawns a small fleet of rats, it senses a orca and a hulk, then spawns a few cruisers and a few frigates... as a player id just warp out and go to next belt... see these as just rare dangerous spawns out of the ordinary... thoughts ?
As a player I'd just swap to my Cane in Orca's SMB and melt everything -> back to mining. |
Kusum Fawn
State War Academy Caldari State
282
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 16:31:00 -
[19] - Quote
It makes me kid of sad that there are people this articulate about what they want with so little understanding of what it is they want.
1. anything you can code to fight bots, can and will annoy real players. while this is not saying that you shouldn't think of ideas to fight bots, you cant seriously expect the game to be designed to be a pain in the ass doing basic things for real people at their keyboard. Anything you can think of that will fight bots will also fight players. seemingly nice on paper but terrible in action.
2. I just love random **** appearing on my screen. I mean that was the success of popup ads that stole focus right? cause people loved them? lets introduce more of them to a game that already has a few (which are fairly universally reviled) and make it for the most boring profession of them all.
3. What happens after the 15 minutes? 3a. what does this do to legitimate players semi afking ice?
to J ThreeTears
1. some people afk cloak for weeks. alt accounts that just sit and watch for things to happen in local.
2. "but every bot has to buy 2 or more plex per month with isk. 1 to keep the account going and a second one (or more) for resale for IRL money. CCP is losing massive ammounts of money because of this." - How does bot purchase of plex hurt CCP income streams? - Character/account sales outside of CCP jurisdiction is a violation of the EULA, and TOS, shutting them down has little to do with in game bots. as they happen out of game. 2a. "Which means that 14 day trial guy will make a MAX of about 100-200m isk." -which, when the bots keep prices down means he can buy far more things then he can use, replace every ship he can skill to fly and their fittings several times over. And most likely, lose them several times as well. Why would the player be dissatisfied with a game that allowed him to easily replace assets?
3. When a game has a free to play component its anti bot measures must be more stringent, but that does not mean that every anti bot measure employed by Runescape has and corollary or utility to the eve programming setup.
4. This already happens. there is a team that does this now in EVE.
5. I am not familiar with how Blizzard works its micro transactions, but i doubt that that would do anything for practical mining or anti bot software.
"I'm sorry but mining for 10-20m/hour is killing this game." "I'm pretty sure we'd all be better off if ores were worth mining." wut?
"I think massive PVP fleets shouldn't have a problem having a battle that lasts less than the 2-3 hour window" You have never been in a CTA fleet. TiDi popups? wonderful.
one last thought - "Everyone says "But the market will go up by like a million" it might spike for a short time, but it would rebalance with all of the mission runners who sell their loot and the Indy guys who make stuff."
mission loot nerfed (less drops and no more meta 0 mods means less minerals from loot, not counting the drop in mission runner bots snot selling loot anymore) Where are the indy guys getting their minerals to build stuff?you think there are enough people who want to mine nonafk/fight popups to fulfill the demand for minerals?
Its not possible to please all the people all the time, but it sure as hell is possible to Displease all the people, most of the time.
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Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy Caldari State
381
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 16:54:00 -
[20] - Quote
Oh, and if you want some random buttons or captchas for miners because you don't like miners, it should be same for everyone.
- No special treatment for pvpers - No annoying "extra" features for players you don't like |
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sabre906
Old Spice Syndicate Sailors of the Sacred Spice
600
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 17:47:00 -
[21] - Quote
Bots OCR better than the average near-sighted Eve geek.
The reason botting is so much easier in Eve than other games, and less detectable, is because Eve is Spreadsheet Online.
Eve-style mining is not a task fit for live humans anyway. Just turn mining into an automated function like manufacturing, and all the botting problems will go away.
Mining job - runtime: 12 hours, cost: 50 mil isk, yield: xxx system dependent
Isk sink for Eve's economy, bots disappear. Standings Improvement Service https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=19454 |
J ThreeTears Brimstoan
The Market Monstr Accumulative
2
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Posted - 2013.01.16 17:49:00 -
[22] - Quote
1.) I did not know that people AFK cloaked for weeks, didn't know that was even possible to be completely honest <___Just a humble miner/indy guy
2.) There are plenty of people, like me , who work from home or are allowed to play games at work (I encourage my employees to play as the EVE market really does give a good training example for real **Spelling Edit** life brokering) and get to /want to check in on their player every 10-15 minutes when not dealing with actual business matters. Thus, there are plenty of player who would love to mine, if only it paid better. (Botters are killing the ore market thus turning players away from mining)
3.) Botting is a tool used by ISK farmers to make isk and then buy plex with ISK, which is then sold on separate websites for IRL money, which is breaking the rules, I agree. Thus, Without botters, there is no supply of ISK/PLEX to the "Non-licensed" resellers of plex. If those "Non-licensed" plex sellers no longer have plex to sell, CCP (Or a CCP Licensed reseller) gets those sales. $$ in the bank.
4.) Most newbies (In almost every MMO) start out trying to build funds by using the "Resource gathering" method. This is especially true for EVE online because to new players, ISK means not having to pay using IRL money. So when they start out and they mine for an hour and only find that they've made a total of 3m ISK (Which equals about 186 hours to buy a plex at about 8 hours a day) They soon find that it would take them 23x full 8 hour days to pay for a plex because mining just isn't paying that well. What happens when ores become more valuable? More people want to mine. Thus returning a balanced influx of miners. (I believe CCP was trying to work on this when they nerfed the mission loot AND created a newbie mining vessel. Coincidence?
5.) We aren't trying to stop miners because we hate miners. I'm a miner. I DON'T hate myself. We're doing this because we LOVE miners <3 and we DON'T love botters. Just a recap: Miners good, botters bad.
6.) We are still on the topic of "Throwing around Ideas" I believe I stated earlier, so any helpful input definitely gets a +1 from me. People who actually read a full post BEFORE posting a "You're wrong" reply also gets a +1 from me. |
J ThreeTears Brimstoan
The Market Monstr Accumulative
2
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 17:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
Kusum Fawn:
7.) " - Character/account sales outside of CCP jurisdiction is a violation of the EULA, and TOS, shutting them down has little to do with in game bots. as they happen out of game. " <--- that statement is true, but I said NOTHING about account sales, this is about ISK farming botters Reselling PLEX and ruining the game for REAL miners by cleaning out an asteroid belt before anyone gets a chance to mine! You get a -1 for not reading BEFORE you post. (Please note that I already understand that other (REAL) miners/corps will do that too but it's hard to compete with a tireless bot who doesn't have to use the restroom, eat, do anything else that real life players might have to do [Please also not that real life players might also have to run errends or do something else that is important and might be logged out or be left sitting in station for several hours while botters wipe a system clean of asteroids!])
8.) "When a game has a free to play component its anti bot measures must be more stringent, but that does not mean that every anti bot measure employed by Runescape has and corollary or utility to the eve programming setup. " I understand this, games and their developers are different. I did not state anywhere that CCP should use the same ones or that runescape's anti-bots even work! I was simply pointing out that a crap company like jagex had made better attempts than CCP. Unfortunately that brings us to the current rating and you are again -1 for not reading BEFORE you post rawrness at me. For those of you whom cannot count, this brings Kusum Fawn to a total of -2
9.) You really don't like to read before you post do you? "4. This already happens. there is a team that does this now in EVE." The goal is to "Free up" those employees for more important things than watching people mine to see if they are botting. Again, -1 for not reading BEFORE you post something. Total: -3
10.) "5. I am not familiar with how Blizzard works its micro transactions, but i doubt that that would do anything for practical mining or anti bot software. " Again, I said nothing about their anti-bot software because honestly it sucks! I was trying to explain that a lot can happen when you have those extra employees who can do something MORE IMPORTANT than bot watching (Thus supporting my freviour statement in my original post) like content writing etc etc. Again, you are -1 for not reading BEFORE posting (Anyone else noticing a trend?) Total : -4
11.) ""I'm sorry but mining for 10-20m/hour is killing this game." "I'm pretty sure we'd all be better off if ores were worth mining." wut?" It's pretty self explanatory but I'll bite: Say one ore is worth 20isk per unit, if you get rid of the botter and just say (Made up numbers) the price goes up to say 25isk per unit. It would do 2 things. You ready for this? 1: It would make mining more worth the boringness. 2: It would attract more miners! (More miners = more indy = more indy = more pve/pvp = better eve economy YAY EVE Economy!) I really think you should go back and read BEFORE posting because yet again you are -1 bringing you to a total of -5
12.) ""I think massive PVP fleets shouldn't have a problem having a battle that lasts less than the 2-3 hour window" You have never been in a CTA fleet. TiDi popups? wonderful." I'm not really big on pvp so I'll take your word for it. You're still at -5 though.
13.) "Where are the indy guys getting their minerals to build stuff?" Did you really just ask that? -1 Total: -6 14.) "you think there are enough people who want to mine nonafk/fight popups to fulfill the demand for minerals?" Yes, most of my previous statements have included some sort of explanation involving (less botters = more miners) -1 Total: -7 |
J ThreeTears Brimstoan
The Market Monstr Accumulative
2
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Posted - 2013.01.16 17:52:00 -
[24] - Quote
Sabre sir, that is a fantastic Idea. I don't know how it would work or how it would be implemented but I think you've got a good brain out your shoulders. I give it a solid 7.5/10 Purely because it would take a (veeery small) amount of pleasure out of mining |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Relativity Alliance
1080
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 18:01:00 -
[25] - Quote
sabre906 wrote:Bots OCR better than the average near-sighted Eve geek. The reason botting is so much easier in Eve than other games, and less detectable, is because Eve is Spreadsheet Online. Eve-style mining is not a task fit for live humans anyway. Just turn mining into an automated function like manufacturing, and all the botting problems will go away. Mining job - runtime: 12 hours, cost: 50 mil isk, yield: xxx system dependent Isk sink for Eve's economy, bots disappear. Add in a means for valid warfare efforts to disrupt an enemies economy, and you might have it.
Even if it means the miners are now sitting in PvP ships, ratting maybe, while standing guard over their automated mining ships.
I see that fostering more PvP, as well as making mining more interesting to fight over, if not participate in. Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
J ThreeTears Brimstoan
The Market Monstr Accumulative
3
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Posted - 2013.01.16 18:07:00 -
[26] - Quote
Nikk, can it be? Two good brains in the same thread, and on the same page? I'm honored! You both get a +1 for reading first and another +1 for quality input!
Sabre: +2 Nikk:+2
Kusum Fawn: Still -7 |
Nikk Narrel
Infinite Improbability Inc Relativity Alliance
1080
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 18:08:00 -
[27] - Quote
J ThreeTears Brimstoan wrote:Nikk, can it be? Two good brains in the same thread, and on the same page? I'm honored! You both get a +1 for reading first and another +1 for quality input!
Sabre: +2 Nikk:+2
Kusum Fawn: Still -7 As I always point out whenever it is mentioned, I am a miner.
<<< Those goggles keep the dust outta my eyes during the exhumer cycles.... Cloaking being on a ten minute manual cycle timer? (Author: Bree Okanata) Fine. As long as there is a ten minute timer for being docked in a station. Also, you can't stop moving in the game. Just add in a way so every ten minutes you are randomly warped to the nearest other player. Keeps people from going AFK. |
Alex Grison
Grison Interstellar
40
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 18:16:00 -
[28] - Quote
CCP Can already search your computer to look for botting/macro software ( its in the EULA ) they should do this more. |
J ThreeTears Brimstoan
The Market Monstr Accumulative
3
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Posted - 2013.01.16 18:18:00 -
[29] - Quote
Alex: That is interesting, I didn't know that. Then again I skimmed through the EULA and figured I'd learn more as I went.
-1 to Me for "Not reading first" as I had put it. |
Inkarr Hashur
Sine Nobilitatis R.E.P.O.
136
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 18:25:00 -
[30] - Quote
Quantum Mass wrote:
2) A button that will appear at random on the GUI screen. (This so it can not be done by a bot prog)
You're a funny guy. A really funny guy. Or just naive. |
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