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Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
233
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Posted - 2013.01.17 14:05:00 -
[91] - Quote
Nightshade Mary wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Malcanis wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Malcanis wrote:Why shouldn't I be allowed to train faster than you if I put some assets on the line to do so? I'd look at it from the point of view of 'what's better for the game' - 50 people PvPing and playing EXTREME HARDCORE RISK HEROES or 500 people PvPing and playing Only Slightly Hardcore Risk Heroes or 5000 people PvPing and playing very little risk heroes. I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it's not the 50 guys. I do like the idea of dropping learning implants entirely and adding more hard wirings and 'corporate implant' sets (to go along side the pirate faction ones) . Are we citing rectally sourced figures in this argument? OK, tens of thousands of players operate in 0.0, and 95% of them use implants. Are you sure? I just checked the last 20 0.0 capsule kills on eve-kill and the breakdown is: 3 x +2's 3 x +4's 1 x +5's So, your 95% figure seems somewhat strained. Only 4 people took any significant risk at all. (A fully fit caracal is worth more than a set of +2's.) You might need to tune your sarcasm detector, it seems a tad off.
So he was being sarcastic when he claimed that people were all packing their heads full of implants and going out there LIVING IT UP HARDCORE?
What would be the problem with scrapping learning implants and adding another 5 sets of hard wirings that people could use to actually mix up the dynamic of spaceships. An implant that adds another 5MB of drone bandwith or such. |
Felicity Love
STARKRAFT
192
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Posted - 2013.01.17 14:06:00 -
[92] - Quote
Put CONCORD on "sick leave" for 3 days, and achieve the same effect with far greater zhitz and gigglez. |
Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
233
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Posted - 2013.01.17 14:08:00 -
[93] - Quote
Felicity Love wrote:Put CONCORD on "sick leave" for 3 days, and achieve the same effect with far greater zhitz and gigglez.
People just wouldn't undock, it would just be a war dec writ large.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7147
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Posted - 2013.01.17 14:12:00 -
[94] - Quote
Doctor Ungabungas wrote: What would be the problem with scrapping learning implants and adding another 5 sets of hard wirings that people could use to actually mix up the dynamic of spaceships. An implant that adds another 5MB of drone bandwith or such.
Why do we have to scrap learning implants to have Slot 1-5 hardwirings? Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Raw Matters
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
18
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Posted - 2013.01.17 14:19:00 -
[95] - Quote
I do agree with the OP, one of the many reasons I do not venture into 0.0 is because of my implants. Now I got these +5 and I am not too scared to undock and sometimes drift through low sec without much thought, but 0.0 with the chance to loose more than half a billion worth of ISK when podded without a chance to escape? No way!
Now 0.0 players say: "Whats the deal, just buy a new set!" but that is blatantly ignoring the fact that you earn a lot more money in 0.0 than in high-sec. Currently with maxed out skills and some excellent equipment and ships, I am burning through missions at a speed that scares most people, yet I still would have to run missions for 15-20 hours straight, to refinance my implants. Other players with less skills/equipment would easily have to run twice that much to get their +5 implants back, while 0.0 players can finance those with just one lucky drop in any of these 10/10 DEDs.
If CCP would make it so that you do not loose your attribute implants when dieing, I am sure a lot more people would take a look at 0.0, because then all you can loose is your ship, and that can be fitted properly to match your ISK income. |
Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
234
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Posted - 2013.01.17 14:24:00 -
[96] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote: What would be the problem with scrapping learning implants and adding another 5 sets of hard wirings that people could use to actually mix up the dynamic of spaceships. An implant that adds another 5MB of drone bandwith or such.
Why do we have to scrap learning implants to have Slot 1-5 hardwirings?
We don't, it would just be a nice synergy where we get two benefits at once:
People worried about losing learning implants would be more willing to get out and lose their 8 million isk rifter, people who love bleeding edge combat can buy a bigger range of hard wirings to give them that 0.3% edge they need.
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7148
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Posted - 2013.01.17 14:26:00 -
[97] - Quote
If loss-free combat was what people wanted, we'd have a lot more people on SiSi than we do. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
234
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Posted - 2013.01.17 14:36:00 -
[98] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:If loss-free combat was what people wanted, we'd have a lot more people on SiSi than we do.
Maybe people don't want loss free combat, they just don't want to lose their 120 million dollar implants when they feel like flying around a caracal until they lose it.
When I go looking for PvP, I'll know I'll be out there until I die or run out of missiles (this hasn't happened yet) so it's not a matter of risking implants, it's a matter of either going without or knowing that no matter what I am guaranteed to eat a 120m loss.
I choose to go without, because 120m will buy me a lot of caracals. (And I'm not alone, the stats I pulled show 75% of 0.0 capsules killed had no implants.)
So we're basically in a world now where the only people who get to use training implants are 0.1+ dwellers, and people with a lot of money. The second one doesn't bother me as much as the first one does. |
Gerard Hareka
State Protectorate Caldari State
5
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Posted - 2013.01.17 14:45:00 -
[99] - Quote
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Malcanis wrote:If loss-free combat was what people wanted, we'd have a lot more people on SiSi than we do. Maybe people don't want loss free combat, they just don't want to lose their 120 million dollar implants when they feel like flying around a caracal until they lose it. When I go looking for PvP, I'll know I'll be out there until I die or run out of missiles (this hasn't happened yet) so it's not a matter of risking implants, it's a matter of either going without or knowing that no matter what I am guaranteed to eat a 120m loss. I choose to go without, because 120m will buy me a lot of caracals. (And I'm not alone, the stats I pulled show 75% of 0.0 capsules killed had no implants.) So we're basically in a world now where the only people who get to use training implants are 0.1+ dwellers, and people with a lot of money. The second one doesn't bother me as much as the first one does.
Stop posting finnaly and stop flying with what you cant afford to lose.
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CCP Dolan
C C P C C P Alliance
252
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Posted - 2013.01.17 14:47:00 -
[100] - Quote
Moved to Features and Ideas CCP Dolan | Community Representative
Twitter: @CCPDolan
Gooby pls |
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Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
238
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Posted - 2013.01.17 14:48:00 -
[101] - Quote
Gerard Hareka wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Malcanis wrote:If loss-free combat was what people wanted, we'd have a lot more people on SiSi than we do. Maybe people don't want loss free combat, they just don't want to lose their 120 million dollar implants when they feel like flying around a caracal until they lose it. When I go looking for PvP, I'll know I'll be out there until I die or run out of missiles (this hasn't happened yet) so it's not a matter of risking implants, it's a matter of either going without or knowing that no matter what I am guaranteed to eat a 120m loss. I choose to go without, because 120m will buy me a lot of caracals. (And I'm not alone, the stats I pulled show 75% of 0.0 capsules killed had no implants.) So we're basically in a world now where the only people who get to use training implants are 0.1+ dwellers, and people with a lot of money. The second one doesn't bother me as much as the first one does. Stop posting finnaly and stop flying with what you cant afford to lose.
It's almost like that's exactly what I do. I know reading is hard, spelling too but jesus it was right there in the third paragraph. |
Gerard Hareka
State Protectorate Caldari State
6
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Posted - 2013.01.17 15:36:00 -
[102] - Quote
How i ended up quoting you ... have no idea :)
Maybe because you are a goon .... |
Verlaine Glariant
Amphysvena
14
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Posted - 2013.01.17 15:42:00 -
[103] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:People who are too risk averse to risk a couple of +4s will just find some other excuse to be risk averse if you remove them. This
www.amphysvena.org |
Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
424
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Posted - 2013.01.17 17:48:00 -
[104] - Quote
Meanwhile Garmon is out in null pvping with a high grade snake set. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Xavier Thorm
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
35
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Posted - 2013.01.17 19:00:00 -
[105] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:The most common reason people do not explore outside of high-security space is the price and risk posed by attribute implants.
I sincerely doubt this. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1698
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Posted - 2013.01.17 19:43:00 -
[106] - Quote
Look at it this way.... no matter what you are training, nor how you are skillmapped, two +5 implants earn 450 sp / hour... or 324,000 sp / month.
Let's imagine the standard player earns about 2000 sp/hour... or about 1.5m SP / month. At 600m per plex for that month, each SP costs 400 isk... less if you train faster than 2085 sp/hr... and much less if that time a plex offers has value beyond skilltraining (which it typically does)!
Now, playing in an implantless clone rather than+5's can then be perceived as an isk cost of 4.32 m isk per day. So, the dream of taking an 8m isk rifter into nullsec to PvP includes a 5m isk surcharge for every day you stay there PvP'ing... This is hardly a "Major" disincentive!
I understand you can't turn isk into lost time, but the reality is people avoid nullsec not because of their implants, but because they are too risk adverse to venture there and lose a ship. The same thing goes for lowsec, where losing your Pod is a much more rare occurrence, as you can spam warp while dying and get your pod out 98% of the time.
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Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
468
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Posted - 2013.01.17 19:56:00 -
[107] - Quote
Oh dear, am I not supposed to be flying around nullsec in a snake set? Damnit, noone told me and I've been doing it for years! |
Darcel Black
The Scope Gallente Federation
14
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Posted - 2013.01.17 20:02:00 -
[108] - Quote
Alternatively, make implants more expensive, but allow them to be removed? |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
595
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Posted - 2013.01.17 20:08:00 -
[109] - Quote
Quote:I understand you can't turn isk into lost time, but the reality is people avoid nullsec not because of their implants, but because they are too risk adverse to venture there and lose a ship. The same thing goes for lowsec, where losing your Pod is a much more rare occurrence, as you can spam warp while dying and get your pod out 98% of the time.
It does, however, set a minimum ship cost that makes sense in nullsec. No one is going to be flying rifters in nullsec if their clone costs 20m and their implants cost 60m. |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
216
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Posted - 2013.01.17 20:45:00 -
[110] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:The most common reason people do not explore outside of high-security space is the price and risk posed by attribute implants.
Wrong. The most common reason is that their gameplay is too restricted there, and they cannot accomplish anything.
Most carebears that are real people (and not bots or nullsec alts) will take on a calculated risk for a calculated gain. The problem is that for most people, low/null represents unlimited risk and no gain, because they don't have the game knowledge to access it. Noone is giving them that knowledge either. Either by education, or by game mechanics, lowsec has to be easier to access. To be blunt, you are solving the wrong problem.
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1711
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Posted - 2013.01.17 21:06:00 -
[111] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:Quote:I understand you can't turn isk into lost time, but the reality is people avoid nullsec not because of their implants, but because they are too risk adverse to venture there and lose a ship. The same thing goes for lowsec, where losing your Pod is a much more rare occurrence, as you can spam warp while dying and get your pod out 98% of the time.
It does, however, set a minimum ship cost that makes sense in nullsec. No one is going to be flying rifters in nullsec if their clone costs 20m and their implants cost 60m.
This is NOT necessarily true... It's easier to move around nullsec in a rifter than say a BC or HAC... you often have a better chance of escape in a small ship...
Also, the 20m isk clone costs will hopefully be remedied in the future...
FYI: I fly frigates in nullsec with 2x +4's and often a 3% implant or two most of the time... and my clone costs 20m isk... I don't lose my pod very often, although I regularly lose ships. I guess it's how you fly, what you consider "acceptable" risks, and what makes isk-sense to you. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3382
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Posted - 2013.01.17 21:11:00 -
[112] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:Tom Gerard wrote:The most common reason people do not explore outside of high-security space is the price and risk posed by attribute implants.
Wrong. The most common reason is that their gameplay is too restricted there, and they cannot accomplish anything. Most carebears that are real people (and not bots or nullsec alts) will take on a calculated risk for a calculated gain. The problem is that for most people, low/null represents unlimited risk and no gain, because they don't have the game knowledge to access it. Noone is giving them that knowledge either. Either by education, or by game mechanics, lowsec has to be easier to access. To be blunt, you are solving the wrong problem. There's only so much you can do to help people who refuse to help themselves. In the end you're responsible for your own happiness. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm Want to enable BBcode on the forums? Here's how. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
479
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Posted - 2013.01.17 21:36:00 -
[113] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:Meanwhile Garmon is out in null pvping with a high grade snake set.
And who actually cares he goes out pvp with 3B implants or gives away 90billions to someone because he's drunk?
No one.
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Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
221
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Posted - 2013.01.17 21:50:00 -
[114] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:Tom Gerard wrote:The most common reason people do not explore outside of high-security space is the price and risk posed by attribute implants.
Wrong. The most common reason is that their gameplay is too restricted there, and they cannot accomplish anything. Most carebears that are real people (and not bots or nullsec alts) will take on a calculated risk for a calculated gain. The problem is that for most people, low/null represents unlimited risk and no gain, because they don't have the game knowledge to access it. Noone is giving them that knowledge either. Either by education, or by game mechanics, lowsec has to be easier to access. To be blunt, you are solving the wrong problem. There's only so much you can do to help people who refuse to help themselves. In the end you're responsible for your own happiness. Yes, and that's why lowsec is so popular and everyone who tries EVE for the first time stays here
Its one thing to make people stand on their own two feet- it's another thing to make them do it while hacking at their shins with a blunt, rusty chainsaw. _ |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3385
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Posted - 2013.01.18 03:32:00 -
[115] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:Tom Gerard wrote:The most common reason people do not explore outside of high-security space is the price and risk posed by attribute implants.
Wrong. The most common reason is that their gameplay is too restricted there, and they cannot accomplish anything. Most carebears that are real people (and not bots or nullsec alts) will take on a calculated risk for a calculated gain. The problem is that for most people, low/null represents unlimited risk and no gain, because they don't have the game knowledge to access it. Noone is giving them that knowledge either. Either by education, or by game mechanics, lowsec has to be easier to access. To be blunt, you are solving the wrong problem. There's only so much you can do to help people who refuse to help themselves. In the end you're responsible for your own happiness. Yes, and that's why lowsec is so popular and everyone who tries EVE for the first time stays here Its one thing to make people stand on their own two feet- it's another thing to make them do it while hacking at their shins with a blunt, rusty chainsaw. Well you mentioned lack of knowledge. How exactly are we supposed to force knowledge on people who are unwilling to seek it out for themselves? Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm Want to enable BBcode on the forums? Here's how. |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
224
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Posted - 2013.01.18 04:48:00 -
[116] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: Well you mentioned lack of knowledge. How exactly are we supposed to force knowledge on people who are unwilling to seek it out for themselves?
My point was that the community actively discourages people from learning, and punishes them when it try it themselves. _ |
psycho freak
Snuff Box
251
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Posted - 2013.01.18 08:10:00 -
[117] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:psycho freak wrote:Tbh implants are dirt cheap these days learning imps more so coz of fw
most losec guys fly around in pirate implants that cost billions do they stay docked? Lowsec guys don't have to worry about bubbles, like, ever.
Nobody ever gets smart bombed ay? just look at pod kills on any pirate killbord
also it YOUR choice to go to null sec pointless bitching about implant afta you decided to live in null
to the guys saying they factor in the 10% value of loss due to implant lmfao its a game your gona die somtime enjoy it my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k
nop cant find it |
Eledinia
Perkone Caldari State
1
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Posted - 2013.01.18 12:15:00 -
[118] - Quote
Risk is what makes Eve better than other MMO's, the fact you cant run back to your body as a ghost and pick everything up. A fight is exciting as you are risking X amount just for the excitement.
As for the "value" of a character - to me the value of my character is how much fun i can have with it. |
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
776
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Posted - 2013.01.18 14:25:00 -
[119] - Quote
I have a three stop program to fix this issue:
1) Open the door 2) Get on the floor 3) Everybody walk the dinosaur
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3401
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Posted - 2013.01.18 18:14:00 -
[120] - Quote
psycho freak wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:psycho freak wrote:Tbh implants are dirt cheap these days learning imps more so coz of fw
most losec guys fly around in pirate implants that cost billions do they stay docked? Lowsec guys don't have to worry about bubbles, like, ever. Nobody ever gets smart bombed ay? just look at pod kills on any pirate killbord also it YOUR choice to go to null sec pointless bitching about implant afta you decided to live in null to the guys saying they factor in the 10% value of loss due to implant lmfao its a game your gona die somtime enjoy it I was bitching? Where?
Eledinia wrote:Risk is what makes Eve better than other MMO's, the fact you cant run back to your body as a ghost and pick everything up. A fight is exciting as you are risking X amount just for the excitement.
As for the "value" of a character - to me the value of my character is how much fun i can have with it. As risk goes up, so should reward. I don't get any more reward for flying in null with my +5 implants than I would get sitting in station with them, but I get significantly greater risk than someone who flies in low or high with them.
The simple solution to this would be to make it so I can unplug attribute implants without destroying them. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm Want to enable BBcode on the forums? Here's how. |
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