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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 1 post(s) |
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
756
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:29:00 -
[1] - Quote
The most common reason people do not explore outside of high-security space is the price and risk posed by attribute implants. Most people have 60 to 100m in their head at any given time. This makes the GÇ£pipe dreamGÇ¥ of flying a 8m isk Rifter into the unknown impractical. I sit in station for weeks at a time in my +5 implants as itGÇÖs not worth the risk to undockGǪ CCP has effectively created a system that rewards players for not playing their game. When people stop playing EVE and start playing skill training online, corporations crumble, alliances soon after, and people leave the game.
I can think of dozens of times when folks in Huzzah Federation needed help on a project, but the majorities of our players were in hi-sec grinding 2700sp/hour and could not participate. Players including myself eventually left the null-security organizations as the value of SP per hour exceeded the value of working with other players.
EVE veterans reach a point where it is more beneficial to sit AFK in Jita 4-4. 23/7 training 2700sp/hr. than it is to interact with fellow pilots.
Remove SP implants and there will be no reason to stay docked for months at a time, CCP should incentivize undocking and exploring, it is in the best interest of EVE as a community.
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3330
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:33:00 -
[2] - Quote
I PVP with +5s. Scrubs. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1493
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:33:00 -
[3] - Quote
Seems the smart thing to do would be to keep a clone with cheaper implant in a station near by.
You can have, what, 5 clones? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7070
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:34:00 -
[4] - Quote
People who are too risk averse to risk a couple of +4s will just find some other excuse to be risk averse if you remove them. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Sentient Blade
Walk It Off
715
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:35:00 -
[5] - Quote
Reducing the rate at which people can learn new skills to try different parts of the game makes for bad gameplay, lower subscriptions and poor customer relations.
CCPs "You should specialise" only works if you know what you want to specialise in. |
Nightshade Mary
Sarz'na Khumatari The Unthinkables
12
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:36:00 -
[6] - Quote
Not sure if the OP is a troll or not..
More value to sitting in a station gathering skill points?
If it is an ISK issue, why not put cheap implants in your adventurous clone and keep the +5s for the time when you can't play and are stuck in station anyway?
|
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
1174
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:38:00 -
[7] - Quote
Nightshade Mary wrote:Not sure if the OP is a troll or not..
More value to sitting in a station gathering skill points?
If it is an ISK issue, why not put cheap implants in your adventurous clone and keep the +5s for the time when you can't play and are stuck in station anyway?
It's Tom Gerard. Basically everything he ever says can be dismissed as trolling. |
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
756
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:40:00 -
[8] - Quote
Nightshade Mary wrote:Not sure if the OP is a troll or not..
More value to sitting in a station gathering skill points?
If it is an ISK issue, why not put cheap implants in your adventurous clone and keep the +5s for the time when you can't play and are stuck in station anyway?
It is not an ISK issue, you can't buy SP with ISK, and you can get ISK without ever undocking... therefore SP is vastly more valuable than ISK.
When you look at the "value" of a character it is entirely about his SP, his wallet is meaningless. The "winners" of EVE are those people closest to the 2700sp/hr. pin.
CCP rewards me with the highest possible SP accrual because I don't undock.
Seems like this flies in the face of the expected Risk v Reward. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
Nightshade Mary
Sarz'na Khumatari The Unthinkables
12
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:44:00 -
[9] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:Nightshade Mary wrote:Not sure if the OP is a troll or not..
More value to sitting in a station gathering skill points?
If it is an ISK issue, why not put cheap implants in your adventurous clone and keep the +5s for the time when you can't play and are stuck in station anyway?
It is not an ISK issue, you can't buy SP with ISK, and you can get ISK without ever undocking... therefore SP is vastly more valuable than ISK. When you look at the "value" of a character it is entirely about his SP, his wallet is meaningless. The "winners" of EVE are those people closest to the 2700sp/hr. pin. CCP rewards me with the highest possible SP accrual because I don't undock. Seems like this flies in the face of the expected Risk v Reward.
You can buy SP with ISK, there's a whole forum section dedicated to it. |
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
756
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:50:00 -
[10] - Quote
Nightshade Mary wrote:
You can buy SP with ISK, there's a whole forum section dedicated to it.
You mean you can buy Scumbags for ISK, its a refuse heap the majority of the characters have a corrupted history one way or another, very few people want to invest in another man's filth.
SP/Hour is the name of the game. (USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
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Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
1177
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:50:00 -
[11] - Quote
Not to mention that if it's not an ISK issue, you can just keep a couple of spare sets of +5's in your medical clone station, ready to pop in as soon as you get podded. It is very much an ISK issue, as everything in this game boils down to ISK, or to fun, or some combination of the two.
In this case, what you have is some people who dont want to risk their fancy implants because of the cost. This is fine, as they have just made a calculation as to what is best for them, as a player.
I fly around with an inexpensive pod because I derive my enjoyment from other aspects of the game, and FAST AS POSSIBLE SP gain is not that. Hell, fast as possible ISK gain is not that. |
Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild General Tso's Alliance
211
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:53:00 -
[12] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:People who are too risk averse to risk a couple of +4s will just find some other excuse to be risk averse if you remove them.
This. I also had a long time corp mate emorage from EVE because it was stopping him from "having a life." He moved on to playing pokemon all day instead. Hey, as a dude that lives in lowsec, you should read my idea on how to "fix" it... in Blog format, complete with a spreadsheet! http://3xxxd.blogspot.com/2012/09/how-to-buff-lowsec.html |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
1594
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:53:00 -
[13] - Quote
Tom Gerard is the archetypal troll. Mane 614
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7071
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:54:00 -
[14] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:Nightshade Mary wrote:Not sure if the OP is a troll or not..
More value to sitting in a station gathering skill points?
If it is an ISK issue, why not put cheap implants in your adventurous clone and keep the +5s for the time when you can't play and are stuck in station anyway?
It is not an ISK issue, you can't buy SP with ISK, and you can get ISK without ever undocking... therefore SP is vastly more valuable than ISK. When you look at the "value" of a character it is entirely about his SP, his wallet is meaningless. The "winners" of EVE are those people closest to the 2700sp/hr. pin. CCP rewards me with the highest possible SP accrual because I don't undock. Seems like this flies in the face of the expected Risk v Reward.
9/10 deliciously fallacious.
Let's see how long it takes people to spot the 2 easy ones and then the 2 subtle ones. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7071
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:55:00 -
[15] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Tom Gerard is the archetypal troll.
He's a lot cleverer and more subtle than people give him credit for. His OPs are always worth reading. They're like the Zen koans of EVE. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Nalha Saldana
Syneptics Inc. AL3XAND3R.
644
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:56:00 -
[16] - Quote
What is this? Serious discussions in a gerard post? Outrageous! |
Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
1177
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 14:56:00 -
[17] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Andreus Ixiris wrote:Tom Gerard is the archetypal troll. He's a lot cleverer and more subtle than people give him credit for. His OPs are always worth reading. They're like the Zen koans of EVE.
He's the best at what he does... |
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 15:02:00 -
[18] - Quote
As a new player I got two +1s from doing the tutorial missions, combat ones from memory.
Then a +3 from a random christmas gift from CCP, which apparently is worth about 40 million.
And a couple of +2s I bought for about 3 million each.
All up I have about 300 million ISK in ores and whatnot. 700k cash.
To replace what I have would be about 10% of my total worth.
Which could be seen as a disincentive, as even if I take a shuttle into dangerous territory I still carry about 50 mill risk.
I'm not sure on Jump Clones, and whether I could even use one yet. But they do sound like a solution if using one doesn't mean you lose your implants.
At this stage, my implants are worth more than my best ship. A Retriever. And I have cheapish implants.
So I agree with the OP about implants being a bit of a disincentive to exploring the wilds of space, but from the new end of the playerbase rather than the older playerbase.
|
Aren Madigan
EVE University Ivy League
8
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 15:16:00 -
[19] - Quote
OP does kind of have a point.. losing a half billion implants is painful, and slowing down already slow skill training can be annoying. I wouldn't really say remove them, I mean, they are a reward to work towards, but you really can't say that they don't discourage risk a bit more. In fact, its pretty impossible to realistically state that they don't. Some people will always find a reason to avoid risk, yeah, but its human nature to be less willing to take risks as the consequences become greater. Kind of a tough subject to think about. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7080
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 15:20:00 -
[20] - Quote
Hir Miriel wrote:As a new player I got two +1s from doing the tutorial missions, combat ones from memory.
Then a +3 from a random christmas gift from CCP, which apparently is worth about 40 million.
And a couple of +2s I bought for about 3 million each.
All up I have about 300 million ISK in ores and whatnot. 700k cash.
To replace what implants I have would be about 10% of my total worth.
Which could be seen as a disincentive, as even if I take a shuttle into dangerous territory I still carry about 50 mill risk.
I'm not sure on Jump Clones, and whether I could even use one yet. But they do sound like a solution if using one doesn't mean you lose your implants.
At this stage, my implants are worth more than my best ship. A Retriever. And I have cheapish implants.
So I agree with the OP about implants being a bit of a disincentive to exploring the wilds of space, but from the new end of the playerbase rather than the older playerbase.
To be able to use Jump Clones, train the Infomorph Psychology skill. Each skill level = +1 extra jump clone you can have
When you create a jump clone, it has no implants. Once created at a station, you can jump into it from any other station in EVE. Once you're in your "empty" JC, you can add implants to it, and your old clone you left behind now becomes a jump clone. You can jump once every 24 hours.
A common ploy is to put a +4 primary/+3 secondary implant into a "PvP" jump clone, meaning that you'll get 120SP/hr less than when you're in a full +5 set clone, but you'll only be risking ~30M worth of implants. So if you fancy a weekend of weekend PvP shennanigans, jump into your cheap PvP clone on friday night, violence boats until Sunday evening, then jump back into your "safe" clone for the week. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
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Zol Interbottom
Nanotrasen Inc
124
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 15:30:00 -
[21] - Quote
I have 1 30k charisma implant, specialization is for fools, back to pew pew mining trading |
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1013
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 15:39:00 -
[22] - Quote
You could remove implants, and replace with a legal attribute boosters. With a reduced cost being that it's a consumable means less risk if flying with it active. |
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 15:49:00 -
[23] - Quote
Thanks Malcanis.
You mention that the +4/+3 major/minor attribute setup costs the all +5 player about 120 SP an hour.
Which is as far as I can see, priceless. There is no way to buy that, or catch it up.
Unless, perhaps, some sort of loot drop or prize that gave a one time SP boost was connected to the activity. In this case the activity would be hanging out in the badlands of space, doing something presumably violent. The prize/drop could be one use implants or some such.
Of course the trouble with that is the min/max style and whichever is best getting farmed to death, botted and then nerfed to death.
But players that are running risks out in the wilds are also paying the opportunity cost of less SP Gain. |
iskflakes
284
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 15:53:00 -
[24] - Quote
Why would anybody PVP without high grade slaves and an 8% armor implant? - |
Mhax Arthie
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
30
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 16:07:00 -
[25] - Quote
I agree that implants is a major pita. Is so big that actually I dont even use them anymore as I'm constantly smuggling stuff from null to hi sec and roaming null with implants is just stupid. Losing multiple sets of implants on daily basis, even beta ones, is bad for business/wallet. But tbh, I don't even care that it takes hours or even year more than usual to train skills. at least I'm feeling free. |
Serptimis
The Fiction Factory Tribal Band
123
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 16:09:00 -
[26] - Quote
iskflakes wrote:Why would anybody PVP without high grade slaves and an 8% armor implant? Because then everyone would be winning at EVE. |
TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
347
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 16:11:00 -
[27] - Quote
I PvP with +4's I also suicide jump my self around when need be I also don't care about "optimal training speed" and all that junk.
There are also corps that'll let you joint just to get jump clones, or if you don't like that idea a rorqual will do the job too.
Ultimately if your excuse not to PvP is removed, you'll just find another excuse. |
Lord Xeix
Karl XII's Dragoner Apocalypse Now.
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 16:32:00 -
[28] - Quote
I agree cause I'm in that position I got several +4 implants and dying with those plugged in would be a massive loss. I don't make hundreds of mil / week so just a single +4 is very large sum of money for me. I would very much enjoy going out to low sec and pvp/ninja mine/whatever just for the rush of knowing that I could be killed anytime or get away with fine rewards
But I also need to progress in my skills. If I had super good core, gunnery, spaceship cmd, etc maybe I wouldn't care very much about not having implants all the time to progress as fast as possible. Sure I could use JC but I would need high standings and who plays for more than 4hrs? Switching every 24hr is too slow, you would want to switch once, pvp, switch again and log out right? Which would make JC pointless unless you just use them to travel very fast...
tldr: remove implants and let everyone from king to peansant train at an equal rate, and pvp shall flourish! |
Captain Tardbar
State Protectorate Caldari State
18
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 16:39:00 -
[29] - Quote
Wouldn't it be easier and more logical to just reduce the standings requirements for jump clones.
You could make it reasonable around 4 or maybe 3.
Hell, you could just do away with standings requirement and let you have jump clones anywhere.
Then people could explore/pvp for a day without having to worry about losing their implants. "Entitlement" is a euphemism for "I hate the way you play and it makes me cry like a baby" |
March rabbit
Aliastra
481
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 16:40:00 -
[30] - Quote
thanks for funny thread |
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Vince Snetterton
238
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 16:52:00 -
[31] - Quote
When a single +5 would buy me 3 Assault Frig hulls, something is out of whack. Unfortunately, the price of both the +5 implant and the hull are market-driven, so little can be done about that.
What bothers me more is the fact that my med clone costs as much as a AF hull, so getting podded hurts doubly so. And keeping your med clone up to date is a fundamental part of the game.
If CCP looked at lowering med clone prices, I think that would encourage more PvP activity. |
Scrindle Kavees
Vengeful Swan
49
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 16:54:00 -
[32] - Quote
I always PvP with either +5s and full 5% hardwirings or pirate implant sets and full 5% hardwirings; I don't believe your comments about it not being worth the risk to undock in a +5 set.
Granted 0.0 makes it more of a risk to fly implanted, however I don't think that is the major contributing reason for high sec players being reluctant to enter it.
Jump clones exist for a reason. |
TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
347
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 16:57:00 -
[33] - Quote
Lord Xeix wrote:just for the rush of knowing that I could be killed anytime or get away with fine rewards
You know that rush will be greatly reduced if the potential loss is greatly reduced right? |
psycho freak
Snuff Box
243
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 17:07:00 -
[34] - Quote
Huzzah fed nuff said tbh my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k
nop cant find it |
Generals4
Liandri Covenant
1703
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 17:15:00 -
[35] - Quote
I say we remove 0.0 to see attribute implants catch on fire. -Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7087
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 17:15:00 -
[36] - Quote
Hir Miriel wrote:Thanks Malcanis.
You mention that the +4/+3 major/minor attribute setup costs the all +5 player about 120 SP an hour.
Which is as far as I can see, priceless. There is no way to buy that, or catch it up.
Unless, perhaps, some sort of loot drop or prize that gave a one time SP boost was connected to the activity. In this case the activity would be hanging out in the badlands of space, doing something presumably violent. The prize/drop could be one use implants or some such.
Of course the trouble with that is the min/max style and whichever is best getting farmed to death, botted and then nerfed to death.
But players that are running risks out in the wilds are also paying the opportunity cost of less SP Gain.
The error lies in assuming that skillpoints are the only form of advancement that matters. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Generals4
Liandri Covenant
1703
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 17:17:00 -
[37] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:When a single +5 would buy me 3 Assault Frig hulls, something is out of whack. Unfortunately, the price of both the +5 implant and the hull are market-driven, so little can be done about that.
What bothers me more is the fact that my med clone costs as much as a AF hull, so getting podded hurts doubly so. And keeping your med clone up to date is a fundamental part of the game.
If CCP looked at lowering med clone prices, I think that would encourage more PvP activity.
Actually with implants it's not necessarily true considering implants require both LP and Isk to be purchased in LP stores. A +5 implant requires 65mill isk and LP. It's quite clear that regardless of the market people would never sell them at less than 65 million a piece. -Death is nothing, but to live defeated and inglorious is to die daily. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7087
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 17:17:00 -
[38] - Quote
iskflakes wrote:Why would anybody PVP without high grade slaves and an 8% armor implant?
Because I'm a good caldari and I shield tank. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Aston Martin DB5
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
12
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 17:32:00 -
[39] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:Seems the smart thing to do would be to keep a clone with cheaper implant in a station near by.
You can have, what, 5 clones?
Increases the time to finish a FREAKING skill.
|
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3367
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 17:35:00 -
[40] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Hir Miriel wrote:Thanks Malcanis.
You mention that the +4/+3 major/minor attribute setup costs the all +5 player about 120 SP an hour.
Which is as far as I can see, priceless. There is no way to buy that, or catch it up.
Unless, perhaps, some sort of loot drop or prize that gave a one time SP boost was connected to the activity. In this case the activity would be hanging out in the badlands of space, doing something presumably violent. The prize/drop could be one use implants or some such.
Of course the trouble with that is the min/max style and whichever is best getting farmed to death, botted and then nerfed to death.
But players that are running risks out in the wilds are also paying the opportunity cost of less SP Gain. The error lies in assuming that skillpoints are the only form of advancement that matters.
Indeed, people get WAY too hung up on skill point accrual.
Gentlemen, you really need to ask yourself why you play EvE.
Is it to have fun, adventures, and generally be highly entertained for your time spent? ...or is it to acquire skill points... a dull set of numbers that lets you get into more ships (that you sit around in being bored because to risk it might slow down your boring skill point accumulation)?
Seriously, stop worrying about skill point acquisition. Start enjoying yourself.
To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
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Sarah Schneider
PonyWaffe Test Alliance Please Ignore
1826
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 17:36:00 -
[41] - Quote
Err, idk about implants, but medical clone price scaling is a bit ******** honestly, Eve is the only game that punishes players for being loyal to the game. Playing Eve 100% Risk Free! |
Natsett Amuinn
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
1498
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 17:41:00 -
[42] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:Nightshade Mary wrote:Not sure if the OP is a troll or not..
More value to sitting in a station gathering skill points?
If it is an ISK issue, why not put cheap implants in your adventurous clone and keep the +5s for the time when you can't play and are stuck in station anyway?
It is not an ISK issue, you can't buy SP with ISK, and you can get ISK without ever undocking... therefore SP is vastly more valuable than ISK. When you look at the "value" of a character it is entirely about his SP, his wallet is meaningless. The "winners" of EVE are those people closest to the 2700sp/hr. pin. CCP rewards me with the highest possible SP accrual because I don't undock. Seems like this flies in the face of the expected Risk v Reward. But you were the one that wrote the OP.
You were the one that said you wont undock because of the cost of your implants.
If it wasn't an issue of isk, you'd undock.
Sounds to me like the one guy was on the money. Take away whatever he says is holding him back and he'll find another excuse.
Oh wait, it's not he isk, it's the SP/h.
I don't have a problem with undocking with mine.
Would it help if I purchased you a few sets? |
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 17:47:00 -
[43] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Hir Miriel wrote:Thanks Malcanis.
You mention that the +4/+3 major/minor attribute setup costs the all +5 player about 120 SP an hour.
Which is as far as I can see, priceless. There is no way to buy that, or catch it up.
Unless, perhaps, some sort of loot drop or prize that gave a one time SP boost was connected to the activity. In this case the activity would be hanging out in the badlands of space, doing something presumably violent. The prize/drop could be one use implants or some such.
Of course the trouble with that is the min/max style and whichever is best getting farmed to death, botted and then nerfed to death.
But players that are running risks out in the wilds are also paying the opportunity cost of less SP Gain. The error lies in assuming that skillpoints are the only form of advancement that matters.
Malcanis,
As a form of advancement, a high score if you will, a few in EVE come to mind; skillpoints, isk, kills, security status, standings and there are probably more. For these forums it would be post counts and Likes if you will. And of course votes for an election are a measure.
To me, skills are becoming more apparent as items that take a lot of time to get. So implants are looming as more important as an aid to achieving skill based goals. And having implants in, increases the risk I carry around. Especially as I'm not a great PvPer.
Jump Clones would seem to be the answer when I get around to having 8 Standing with the NPC corporations or have friends with clone vats.
That may take a while.
So for now, for me, avoiding risk is the wisest course of action. If not the funnest. However mining does allow a lot of forumming, silver linings and all that.
Just wanted to walk through some of my thinking on the issue. Thanks for your response by the way.
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Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3367
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 17:48:00 -
[44] - Quote
To look at it another way, which is the better use of your time?
Flying a frigate and having a heck of a good time doing it...
or flying a cruiser and being afraid to undock because it might slow down your advancement to the next bigger ship to sit around in? To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3367
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 17:50:00 -
[45] - Quote
Hir Miriel wrote:Malcanis wrote:Hir Miriel wrote:Thanks Malcanis.
You mention that the +4/+3 major/minor attribute setup costs the all +5 player about 120 SP an hour.
Which is as far as I can see, priceless. There is no way to buy that, or catch it up.
Unless, perhaps, some sort of loot drop or prize that gave a one time SP boost was connected to the activity. In this case the activity would be hanging out in the badlands of space, doing something presumably violent. The prize/drop could be one use implants or some such.
Of course the trouble with that is the min/max style and whichever is best getting farmed to death, botted and then nerfed to death.
But players that are running risks out in the wilds are also paying the opportunity cost of less SP Gain. The error lies in assuming that skillpoints are the only form of advancement that matters. Malcanis, As a form of advancement, a high score if you will, a few in EVE come to mind; skillpoints, isk, kills, security status, standings and there are probably more. For these forums it would be post counts and Likes if you will. And of course votes for an election are a measure. To me, skills are becoming more apparent as items that take a lot of time to get. So implants are looming as more important as an aid to achieving skill based goals. And having implants in, increases the risk I carry around. Especially as I'm not a great PvPer. Jump Clones would seem to be the answer when I get around to having 8 Standing with the NPC corporations or have friends with clone vats. That may take a while. So for now, for me, avoiding risk is the wisest course of action. If not the funnest. However mining does allow a lot of forumming, silver linings and all that. Just wanted to walk through some of my thinking on the issue. Thanks for your response by the way.
You might consider that there are several corps around that you can join for a day to get your jump clones (because they have the necessary high standings). To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
7
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 17:58:00 -
[46] - Quote
Thanks for the tip Ranger 1. |
Ranger 1
Ranger Corp
3367
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 18:03:00 -
[47] - Quote
Hir Miriel wrote:Thanks for the tip Ranger 1. No worries.
I don't have a link for you handy (I'm at work) but a search should turn one up... or if someone has a corp name handy to drop in here several people might benefit.
(Occasionally they "advertise" themselves in the various forums.) To carve a successful niche for yourself in EVE you need to be able to out sell, out produce, out fight,-á out run, or out wit your competitors. If you can do none of the above, your only option is to complain on the forums that somehow you are at a disadvantage using the exact same tool set-áas the rest of the player base. |
Jenn aSide
Smokin Aces.
1146
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 18:07:00 -
[48] - Quote
Whether we agree with it or not, for some other people, implant and clone upgrade costs ARE barriers to pvp.
It's not for me, I lost a clone with a Crystal set and some price hardwirings (PASHANS, that's right, im rich biatch), but I had fun doing it, and generally I'm in the "don't risk what you don't want to lose" camp.
BUT, EVE is a game built around space ships and space ships require character skills to fly, and the current implant scheme forces poorer players to choose between getting to the next new exciting level of space ships OR going out and having some fun screwing with people.
Ditto the Clone Upgrades (a seperate but related issue to implants), While i don't mind paying the 30+ mil I have to on a couple characters, It does get tedious in a hot fight where you might die multiple times in bubbles (and get podded or have to consider self destructing to get back to a station for another ship and thus back into the fight).
I stopped flying Dictors because after a big fight in Delve where I had to go reship several times I realized I'd spent 200 mil on damn clone upgrades alone and STILL lost skill points (Jump Cal freaking 5 of all things) because the last time I rushed back out to fight I forget to upgrade :( .
I don't know how to fix it (or even if "fixing it" would not cause bigger problems), but I can say without hesitation, the current clone and implant mechanics ARE big potential barriers to PVP, and barriers to pvp should be low in a game about PVP. |
NEONOVUS
Saablast Followers
301
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 18:13:00 -
[49] - Quote
I agree roll learning implants in just like with learning skills. Then maybe for fun give the pirate implants a negative attribute score, so that they drop you down to where they are now. Power at a price basically. I could see it being a lot more fun this way as then people would be more likely to pvp without worrying about pod loss.
|
Inxentas Ultramar
Ultramar Independent Contracting Home Front Coalition
273
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 19:04:00 -
[50] - Quote
Ha ha implants. As a medium SP space bum, I consider everything above +3 to be a scam. The clone mechanics just suck, they make no sense, and indeed punish loyal players and reward having alts. It only makes sense from a business standpoint (sink + subs), not from a gameplay viewpoint. Remember those games where you lost X percentage of your wealth when you died? It always was an incentive for me to turn credits into assets ASAP in those type of games. Just as with most level 4 skills taking a day and just one bit, I'm to much of a critical consumer to be lured into buying expensive implants or grind them with LP. |
|
Nick Asir
Triple Helix Corporation
0
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 19:06:00 -
[51] - Quote
Brooks Puuntai wrote:You could remove implants, and replace with a legal attribute boosters. With a reduced cost being that it's a consumable means less risk if flying with it active.
Why not this? Sounds like a great idea to me. Would make smuggling a much bigger part of the game. |
Rexxorr
Zero Corp Tax
7
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 19:07:00 -
[52] - Quote
The most valuable attribute of a char is the amount of skill points it has. Learning implants is the number one thing you can do to increase its value. Over all learning implants are a hassle, and yes they help to prevent pvp. Jump clones with a 24 hour cool-down are also a hassle.
Removing learning implants would be a good move, it will encourage more people to pvp. How many more ? probably none really knows, but I know of at least one.
|
Nytak
Serpent Securities Inc. The Methodical Alliance
22
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 19:51:00 -
[53] - Quote
Isn't this one of the issues addressed by Jump Clones? I keep the implants I'm comfortable spending cash on in one clone.. If I'm going someplace where I may very well get podded, well, then I hop into my 0 implant clone and have my fun worry free. |
Iosue
Black Sky Hipsters
142
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 20:06:00 -
[54] - Quote
Nick Asir wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:You could remove implants, and replace with a legal attribute boosters. With a reduced cost being that it's a consumable means less risk if flying with it active. Why not this? Sounds like a great idea to me. Would make smuggling a much bigger part of the game.
because then you would end up with lots of people holed up in their stations with piles of boosters to ensure they get the max sp all the time. |
Buzzy Warstl
The Strontium Asylum
442
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 20:18:00 -
[55] - Quote
Vince Snetterton wrote:When a single +5 would buy me 3 Assault Frig hulls, something is out of whack. Unfortunately, the price of both the +5 implant and the hull are market-driven, so little can be done about that. LP store cost (65000LP, 65M isk) is a pretty hard floor for the +5 implants, it isn't entirely market driven. http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs |
Bane Necran
Appono Astos
1445
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 20:34:00 -
[56] - Quote
It's already easy and cheap to have a 'throwaway' jump clone with basic implants for venturing into situations where you may be podded, so that wouldn't really affect anything. "The nice thing about quotes is that they give us a nodding acquaintance with the originator which is often socially impressive." ~Kenneth Williams |
Silk daShocka
Greasy Hair Club
295
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 20:37:00 -
[57] - Quote
Or how about CCP doesn't remove attribute implants, you get yourself infomorph psychology I (shouldn't take too long with dem +5s ya gots), then proceed to head into null sec with your clone that doesn't have implants.
It's silly that you won't undock because your scared to lose implants then ask for them to be taken out of the game. Take the implants out of your head instead and solve you're own problem.
Either way, removing implants won't "set null on fire". Removing implants will make Eve a more forgiving environment, where you have less to lose when you put it on the line. |
rofflesausage
State War Academy Caldari State
63
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 20:49:00 -
[58] - Quote
One of the issues with implants is that they don't expire - a lot of people will stick them in their head and are paranoid about losing them. Having an entire clone dedicated to having +5's in that you jump to when not about is such a crappy mechanic. There is no risk, just reward.
Make implants cheaper, but give them a finite lifetime.
What's a +4 these days? 20M? For infinite use if you don't PvP? Insane.
Make them 5M, but last 30 days.
Not only does it put the thought of them being already lost in peoples mind, it means ISK is moved around for them more often. Oh, and it's another reason for people to to login.
|
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy Gallente Federation
572
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 21:04:00 -
[59] - Quote
Ranger 1 wrote:Malcanis wrote:Hir Miriel wrote:Thanks Malcanis.
You mention that the +4/+3 major/minor attribute setup costs the all +5 player about 120 SP an hour.
Which is as far as I can see, priceless. There is no way to buy that, or catch it up.
Unless, perhaps, some sort of loot drop or prize that gave a one time SP boost was connected to the activity. In this case the activity would be hanging out in the badlands of space, doing something presumably violent. The prize/drop could be one use implants or some such.
Of course the trouble with that is the min/max style and whichever is best getting farmed to death, botted and then nerfed to death.
But players that are running risks out in the wilds are also paying the opportunity cost of less SP Gain. The error lies in assuming that skillpoints are the only form of advancement that matters. Indeed, people get WAY too hung up on skill point accrual. Gentlemen, you really need to ask yourself why you play EvE. Is it to have fun, adventures, and generally be highly entertained for your time spent? ...or is it to acquire skill points... a dull set of numbers that lets you get into more ships (that you sit around in being bored because to risk it might slow down your boring skill point accumulation)? Seriously, stop worrying about skill point acquisition. Start enjoying yourself. Oddly enough for some of us expanding the range of ships we can fly and effectively use is a big part of the fun of the game. For that group, of which I am a part, SP accrual is something that is often worth considering. You are right in that the number of SP itself is meaningless, but what it enables is far from meaningless for many. |
Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
3220
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 21:06:00 -
[60] - Quote
Iosue wrote:Nick Asir wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:You could remove implants, and replace with a legal attribute boosters. With a reduced cost being that it's a consumable means less risk if flying with it active. Why not this? Sounds like a great idea to me. Would make smuggling a much bigger part of the game. because then you would end up with lots of people holed up in their stations with piles of boosters to ensure they get the max sp all the time. Sounds like players successfully interacting with the game mechanics. Those who cannot adapt become victims of Evolugalbugaslugakjlwsdhvbzxd Click for old school EVE Portraits: http://jadeconstantine.web44.net/Maison.htm |
|
La Nariz
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
627
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 21:33:00 -
[61] - Quote
This is the wrong reason to remove attribute implants. The reason is to make learning the game less painful for new players. Remove them all together and increase each attribute by 5 or give an additional 25 points to allocate during remaps. This makes it easier on newbies because they won't have the isk to buy new implants every podding but it does make dieing less significant. Making loss less significant is a huge problem so clone costs would have to go up, preferably only the higher SP clones would go up (10,000,000.00+) so as to not punish newbies for learning the hard way. A side-effect of making the game easier to learn is that mission running, specifically highsec mission running becomes less valuable which is a good thing for a variety of reasons. This post was loving crafted by a member of the Official GoonWaffe recruitment team. |
Gorn Arming
Merch Industrial Goonswarm Federation
128
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 21:36:00 -
[62] - Quote
The real problem with learning implants being destructible is not the risk in PvPing--it's that the risk is very unevenly spread through EVE. You're not going to lose your pod in highsec or lowsec (as long as you avoid the locations that are smartbomb-camped on your way home). In nullsec, due to the prevalence of dictors, the odds of getting out with your pod intact are low enough that it's a pleasant surprise when it happens.
The easiest way to solve this would be to drop the cooldown on same-station clone jumps to zero or something nearly as short. |
Fluffy Sheep
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
9
|
Posted - 2013.01.16 21:43:00 -
[63] - Quote
I don't like too much risk and I have things i'm specifically training for that take quite some time. So, I have implants in almost all my clones to help this training process along.
I do have a couple of implant free clones for my characters. Frankly though, the thought of jumping to them and having them likely die (clone upgrade fee + risk of forgetting too) + the thought of being stuck with that slow training clone for 24hr's makes me adverse to using them except for the rarest of occasions. This will change somewhat once I reach my goals but that's still a while off.
So here's the list of possible things that could encourage those like me to go out there more.
1) Reduced implant costs 2) Reduced clone upgrade costs 3) Reduced time between clone jumps (maybe reduced time, but a limit of x jumps / time period to stop frequent use) 4) Reduced standing requirement at npc stations to install clones.
For me, #3 then #2 would seem to be the simplest and most practical solutions as i'm in null already and installing new clones is easy. Also I have better ability to grind back the cost of the clone upgrade.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7110
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 09:39:00 -
[64] - Quote
Hir Miriel wrote:Malcanis wrote:Hir Miriel wrote:Thanks Malcanis.
You mention that the +4/+3 major/minor attribute setup costs the all +5 player about 120 SP an hour.
Which is as far as I can see, priceless. There is no way to buy that, or catch it up.
Unless, perhaps, some sort of loot drop or prize that gave a one time SP boost was connected to the activity. In this case the activity would be hanging out in the badlands of space, doing something presumably violent. The prize/drop could be one use implants or some such.
Of course the trouble with that is the min/max style and whichever is best getting farmed to death, botted and then nerfed to death.
But players that are running risks out in the wilds are also paying the opportunity cost of less SP Gain. The error lies in assuming that skillpoints are the only form of advancement that matters. Malcanis, As a form of advancement, a high score if you will, a few in EVE come to mind; skillpoints, isk, kills, security status, standings and there are probably more. For these forums it would be post counts and Likes if you will. And of course votes for an election are a measure. To me, skills are becoming more apparent as items that take a lot of time to get. So implants are looming as more important as an aid to achieving skill based goals. And having implants in, increases the risk I carry around. Especially as I'm not a great PvPer. Jump Clones would seem to be the answer when I get around to having 8 Standing with the NPC corporations or have friends with clone vats. That may take a while. So for now, for me, avoiding risk is the wisest course of action. If not the funnest. However mining does allow a lot of forumming, silver linings and all that. Just wanted to walk through some of my thinking on the issue. Thanks for your response by the way.
Why are you acquiring skillpoints? No one gets a prize for have x skillpoints on his character sheet; skills are only useful insofar as they enable you to do things, or do them slightly better. It's nonsensical to not do things in order to very slightly increase the rate at which you acquire skills.
Additionally, as I said above, there are many forms of character advancement. ISK is one. Even more important are game assets, including not just ships and modules, but things like BPOs and also less obvious assets like bookmarks (having a fall set of ping spots and safesports can be a priceless advantage when you're living outside hi-sec.
Less tangibly, by "playing it safe", you're crippling your skill advancement. Not your character's, yours, you the player. Whilst you're saving a week or so per year on your skillpoint training, other players are undocking and learning how to do things. Scouting, small gang PvP, fleet PvP, exploration, controlling ships, how to move capitals safely, what the aggro rules mean, how to do combat probing, working with a corp, travelling safely through hostile space, using the scanner... and dozens of other vital EVE skills that can't be acquired from skillbooks, only by undocking and playing the game.
It's as if you'd decided to train all the ship skills, and no module or weapon skills whatsoever. Great, you can undock every ship there is! But you can't do anything with your undocked ship. (OK you can with the Freighters). I'm sure that you'd agree that this would be a highly unbalanced and sub-optimal training plan, regardless of the SP/hr. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
TheBlueMonkey
Don't Be a Menace That Red Alliance
349
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 09:40:00 -
[65] - Quote
You know what, let's just jump to the root of this whole thing.
25+ years to get all skills to level 5 is totally the suck!
EVERYONE should start with all level 5 skills straight away, a bank of 10bil and all ships and mods should be 100isk.
yey, that'd be awesome fun times, especially with all consiquences removed from the game... wooooo
-¼_-¼
Alternatively, accept that in eve, 24 hours of "SLOWED" skill training ISN'T a big deal.
Seriously, If you're new enough that all your skills complete in under a day, the difference is going to be negligible. If you're older and your skills take days\weeks to complete, again it's not going to be noticeable unless you stay in a implantless clone.
Seriously, you're just making excuses for why you won't PvP(which is fine if you don't want to, just don't act like you're not for some transparent reasoning), you can start within a day of joining the game as people like dreddit have proven so just get out there and do it. |
Nightshade Mary
Sarz'na Khumatari The Unthinkables
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 09:49:00 -
[66] - Quote
I just base my implants on the relative security of the space the clone will be in.
High sec? Make it expensive. Null? Slightly cheaper.
No standing for a jumpclone? It has been mentioned before, join one of the corps that offer them as a service. Only takes a day or so.
Fly what you can afford to lose doesn't just apply to the ships, also to what's in your head.
|
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
1015
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 09:50:00 -
[67] - Quote
Iosue wrote:Nick Asir wrote:Brooks Puuntai wrote:You could remove implants, and replace with a legal attribute boosters. With a reduced cost being that it's a consumable means less risk if flying with it active. Why not this? Sounds like a great idea to me. Would make smuggling a much bigger part of the game. because then you would end up with lots of people holed up in their stations with piles of boosters to ensure they get the max sp all the time.
And how is that's different from now? At least with boosters it would reduce the cost of losing them, and you can control your attributes better with out stacking your clones with implants.
|
psycho freak
Snuff Box
243
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 10:02:00 -
[68] - Quote
Tbh implants are dirt cheap these days learning imps more so coz of fw
most losec guys fly around in pirate implants that cost billions do they stay docked?
Not undocking coz implants is just stupid tbh grow a pair its only pixels and at end of the day who actually gives a fu#k?
Go out enjoy the game stop beeing a pansy my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k
nop cant find it |
Gerard Hareka
State Protectorate Caldari State
4
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 10:23:00 -
[69] - Quote
Everyone just should start with all lv5
CCP please dumb the game down even more.
|
flakeys
Arkham Innovations Paper Tiger Coalition
761
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 10:33:00 -
[70] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:Players including myself eventually left the null-security organizations as the value of SP per hour exceeded the value of working with other players.
One of the saddest excuses i ever seen for staying in empire to be honest and the first time i heard this excuse in my 9 years in eve.
If you care more for your net SP gain over player interaction then what the hell are you doing in an mmorpg.
We are all born ignorant, but one must work hard to remain stupid.
|
|
Hir Miriel
Elves In Space
7
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 12:44:00 -
[71] - Quote
Malcanis,
Sub-optimal training plan? Sounds too organised for me.
I think our goals differ perhaps. Not even sure what mine are yet. Something along the lines of flying a Retriever and Arbitrator, then working out how two players can set up a research station, if at all.
Along the way making sure I don't lose about 10% of my wealth by getting pod killed, i.e. PvP.
Point is, implants do figure into how I perceive PvP. Perhaps they do for other players as well.
I agree there are many skills to be learned in games and there are many games in our lives. But for me, there is no wrong way to play a game. Just different ways. And in this one isolated part of the Universe, over this one dust speck of an issue, I think that maybe some change to how implants work, would effect player risk assessments of PvP |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3362
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 12:55:00 -
[72] - Quote
psycho freak wrote:Tbh implants are dirt cheap these days learning imps more so coz of fw
most losec guys fly around in pirate implants that cost billions do they stay docked? Lowsec guys don't have to worry about bubbles, like, ever. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm Want to enable BBcode on the forums? Here's how. |
Skippermonkey
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
1743
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 13:06:00 -
[73] - Quote
I'd rather have cheaper clone costs COME AT ME BRO
I'LL JUST BE DOCKED IN THIS STATION |
Moonasha
Orcses and Goblinz
112
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 13:13:00 -
[74] - Quote
Couldn't agree more. Removing learning skills was a step in the right direction. Implants should be next. It doesn't dumb anything down, because implants are rather binary as is - and implants like slaves and such will still be used. |
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
380
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 13:15:00 -
[75] - Quote
I'm sorry, it has been 4 pages now, have anybody brought up that obligatory swapping clones without jumping (and so with no JC timer) / reducing JC cooldown / whatever idea? If no, then here it is. |
Nightshade Mary
Sarz'na Khumatari The Unthinkables
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 13:38:00 -
[76] - Quote
There is nothing wrong with implants.
It is all about risk vs reward. You want the reward of more SP/hr? You run the risk of losing the expensive implants.
Eve is not a nice place, it was never meant to be.
This all reminds me way too much of Ultima Online, they took out non-consentual PVP and the whole game went down the shitter. |
Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
230
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 13:41:00 -
[77] - Quote
Natsett Amuinn wrote:Seems the smart thing to do would be to keep a clone with cheaper implant in a station near by.
You can have, what, 5 clones?
If you could jump to new clones at will, that would be perfect.
I think the 24 hour timer is a bit ridiculous. It was meant to prevent people from teleporting around the universe at will, but maybe they could put a distance limitation on clone jumping instead. Maybe same region or adjacent systems rather than 24 hours. |
Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
230
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 13:43:00 -
[78] - Quote
Nightshade Mary wrote:There is nothing wrong with implants.
It is all about risk vs reward. You want the reward of more SP/hr? You run the risk of losing the expensive implants.
Eve is not a nice place, it was never meant to be.
Sure you can argue risk vs reward all you like, but when people won't take the risk then the whole ''risk vs reward' argument is meaningless.
You might offer a 'play russian roulette game' where you can win 50 million dollars, but if everyone is too scared to play it then there is no point in running the game. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7144
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 13:43:00 -
[79] - Quote
Moonasha wrote:Couldn't agree more. Removing learning skills was a step in the right direction. Implants should be next. It doesn't dumb anything down, because implants are rather binary as is - and implants like slaves and such will still be used.
Just give all characters +5 attribute points, and remove attribute implants from the game. This also opens 5 more slots for skill hardwiring. Would be way more fun. I'd love to see lots of new skill hardwiring implants, such as drone implants.
I would personally go into null sec if this happened. I used to live in low sec, and had ample opportunity to enter null sec on random roams. I've stopped from entering null sec countless times, due to having slaves or +5s in my head, because my jump clone was jumps away from the op. Jump clones aren't really a solution.
People are afraid to lose training time, not the isk. Isk you can always make, but time you cannot get back. People will still lose skill hardwiring like idiots if you take attribute implants out.
The logical conclusion to this line of thought is to simply remove attributes altogether and have all training take place at a fixed rate.
I plugged in +4s a week or two after LP stores were introduced, and I kept right on trucking through 0.0, lo-sec and everywhere else with +4s in my head. Yes I lost clones. yes I had to buy new implants. Usually the cost of a pair of +4s was less than the value of the ship I lost, and to be frank, I never gave it a second thought. It was just a part of the cost of doing business.
What you're saying is quite literally that because you're too scared to take a risk in order to gain an advantage, you should be granted that advantage without taking the risk, and no one should be able to get an advantage over you by taking a risk.
Why shouldn't I be allowed to train faster than you if I put some assets on the line to do so? Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
230
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 13:45:00 -
[80] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Why shouldn't I be allowed to train faster than you if I put some assets on the line to do so?
I'd look at it from the point of view of 'what's better for the game' - 50 people PvPing and playing EXTREME HARDCORE RISK HEROES or 500 people PvPing and playing Only Slightly Hardcore Risk Heroes or 5000 people PvPing and playing very little risk heroes.
I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it's not the 50 guys.
|
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7144
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 13:48:00 -
[81] - Quote
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Nightshade Mary wrote:There is nothing wrong with implants.
It is all about risk vs reward. You want the reward of more SP/hr? You run the risk of losing the expensive implants.
Eve is not a nice place, it was never meant to be.
Sure you can argue risk vs reward all you like, but when people won't take the risk then the whole ''risk vs reward' argument is meaningless. You might offer a 'play russian roulette game' where you can win 50 million dollars, but if everyone is too scared to play it then the game becomes pointless.
But loads of people routinely take the risk. It's a flat out lie to claim otherwise. A review of the killboards of any 0.0 group will show that the great majority of pods have implants.
This argument is literally "Hoo hoo I don't like the idea of losing so give prizes to everyone so I don't have to feel bad about not even entering the contest"
If you're too scared to put 30M ISK on the line in a fight, then all you'll ever fly is T1 frigates and cruisers anyway. In whaich case why do you even care about your SP/hr? 4 or 5M SP is all you'll ever need. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7144
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 13:50:00 -
[82] - Quote
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Malcanis wrote:Why shouldn't I be allowed to train faster than you if I put some assets on the line to do so? I'd look at it from the point of view of 'what's better for the game' - 50 people PvPing and playing EXTREME HARDCORE RISK HEROES or 500 people PvPing and playing Only Slightly Hardcore Risk Heroes or 5000 people PvPing and playing very little risk heroes. I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it's not the 50 guys. I do like the idea of dropping learning implants entirely and adding more hard wirings and 'corporate implant' sets (to go along side the pirate faction ones) .
Are we citing rectally sourced figures in this argument?
OK, tens of thousands of players operate in 0.0, and 95% of them use implants. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
230
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 13:51:00 -
[83] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:
But loads of people routinely take the risk. It's a flat out lie to claim otherwise. A review of the killboards of any 0.0 group will show that the great majority of pods have implants.
This argument is literally "Hoo hoo I don't like the idea of losing so give prizes to everyone so I don't have to feel bad about not even entering the contest"
If you're too scared to put 30M ISK on the line in a fight, then all you'll ever fly is T1 frigates and cruisers anyway. In whaich case why do you even care about your SP/hr? 4 or 5M SP is all you'll ever need.
How many is loads? And wouldn't it be better with twice as many 'loads'?
And what's wrong with people flying T1 frigates and cruisers? I've been flying around in a caracal for the last few weeks just because I've decided to finally learn what this 'pvp' thing is all about.
Are you saying that you wouldn't kill someone in a T1 frigate because they're not worth your time for some reason? |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7144
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 13:51:00 -
[84] - Quote
Actually, if you want to PvP without risking any loss, there's an option that's been available since a few months after EVE launched. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Nightshade Mary
Sarz'na Khumatari The Unthinkables
13
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 13:51:00 -
[85] - Quote
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Malcanis wrote:Why shouldn't I be allowed to train faster than you if I put some assets on the line to do so? I'd look at it from the point of view of 'what's better for the game' - 50 people PvPing and playing EXTREME HARDCORE RISK HEROES or 500 people PvPing and playing Only Slightly Hardcore Risk Heroes or 5000 people PvPing and playing very little risk heroes. I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it's not the 50 guys.
That all depends on how you define "better".
Some people love to PvP and gladly take the risk that they might lose a clone in the process. Some people just can't wait to crunch rock and are very attached to their current body.
There will always be people that want reward with no risk. Giving them that is a sure fire way of taking away the "magic" that is Eve. It is the only game that I know where losing something actually means losing something. |
Pitt POssum
Atztech Inc. Ixtab.
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 13:54:00 -
[86] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:I PVP with +5s. Scrubs.
That's about it. |
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7144
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 13:55:00 -
[87] - Quote
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Malcanis wrote:
But loads of people routinely take the risk. It's a flat out lie to claim otherwise. A review of the killboards of any 0.0 group will show that the great majority of pods have implants.
This argument is literally "Hoo hoo I don't like the idea of losing so give prizes to everyone so I don't have to feel bad about not even entering the contest"
If you're too scared to put 30M ISK on the line in a fight, then all you'll ever fly is T1 frigates and cruisers anyway. In whaich case why do you even care about your SP/hr? 4 or 5M SP is all you'll ever need.
How many is loads? And wouldn't it be better with twice as many 'loads'?
Why limit your made up numbers to twice? Wouldn't four times as many loads be twice as good as twice as many? Why not five times? Or fifty? Heck, there are 7 billion people in the world, maybe we'd get 7 billion players in 0.0 if we removed implants GO FOR THE BRASS RING!
Doctor Ungabungas wrote: And what's wrong with people flying T1 frigates and cruisers? I've been flying around in a caracal for the last few weeks just because I've decided to finally learn what this 'pvp' thing is all about.
Are you saying that you wouldn't kill someone in a T1 frigate because they're not worth your time for some reason?
No, I'm saying that if you're going to limit yourself to risking so little ISK that the mere chance of losing a couple of +4s keeps you cowering in fear behind the undock button, then 5M SP will easily cover all the ships you'd ever dare risk undocking in. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
230
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 13:59:00 -
[88] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Malcanis wrote:Why shouldn't I be allowed to train faster than you if I put some assets on the line to do so? I'd look at it from the point of view of 'what's better for the game' - 50 people PvPing and playing EXTREME HARDCORE RISK HEROES or 500 people PvPing and playing Only Slightly Hardcore Risk Heroes or 5000 people PvPing and playing very little risk heroes. I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it's not the 50 guys. I do like the idea of dropping learning implants entirely and adding more hard wirings and 'corporate implant' sets (to go along side the pirate faction ones) . Are we citing rectally sourced figures in this argument? OK, tens of thousands of players operate in 0.0, and 95% of them use implants.
Are you sure?
I just checked the last 20 0.0 capsule kills on eve-kill and the breakdown is: 3 x +2's 3 x +4's 1 x +5's
So, your 95% figure seems somewhat strained. Only 4 people took any significant risk at all. (A fully fit caracal is worth more than a set of +2's.) |
Nightshade Mary
Sarz'na Khumatari The Unthinkables
14
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 14:01:00 -
[89] - Quote
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Malcanis wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Malcanis wrote:Why shouldn't I be allowed to train faster than you if I put some assets on the line to do so? I'd look at it from the point of view of 'what's better for the game' - 50 people PvPing and playing EXTREME HARDCORE RISK HEROES or 500 people PvPing and playing Only Slightly Hardcore Risk Heroes or 5000 people PvPing and playing very little risk heroes. I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it's not the 50 guys. I do like the idea of dropping learning implants entirely and adding more hard wirings and 'corporate implant' sets (to go along side the pirate faction ones) . Are we citing rectally sourced figures in this argument? OK, tens of thousands of players operate in 0.0, and 95% of them use implants. Are you sure? I just checked the last 20 0.0 capsule kills on eve-kill and the breakdown is: 3 x +2's 3 x +4's 1 x +5's So, your 95% figure seems somewhat strained. Only 4 people took any significant risk at all. (A fully fit caracal is worth more than a set of +2's.)
You might need to tune your sarcasm detector, it seems a tad off.
|
Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
230
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 14:02:00 -
[90] - Quote
Nightshade Mary wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Malcanis wrote:Why shouldn't I be allowed to train faster than you if I put some assets on the line to do so? I'd look at it from the point of view of 'what's better for the game' - 50 people PvPing and playing EXTREME HARDCORE RISK HEROES or 500 people PvPing and playing Only Slightly Hardcore Risk Heroes or 5000 people PvPing and playing very little risk heroes. I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it's not the 50 guys. There will always be people that want reward with no risk. Giving them that is a sure fire way of taking away the "magic" that is Eve. It is the only game that I know where losing something actually means losing something.
Except PvP is rewarding to both parties.
When you're actually fighting someone in 0.0, are you genuinely going 'oh boy, I bet this guy has got some really juicy implants' or are you going 'man, I am enjoying some exciting ship on ship combat right now'.
Do you feel like you've wasted your time killing them when the capsule kill reveals no implants? Or did you enjoy the fight for the sake of the fight?
|
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Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
233
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 14:05:00 -
[91] - Quote
Nightshade Mary wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Malcanis wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Malcanis wrote:Why shouldn't I be allowed to train faster than you if I put some assets on the line to do so? I'd look at it from the point of view of 'what's better for the game' - 50 people PvPing and playing EXTREME HARDCORE RISK HEROES or 500 people PvPing and playing Only Slightly Hardcore Risk Heroes or 5000 people PvPing and playing very little risk heroes. I don't know the answer, but I'm pretty sure it's not the 50 guys. I do like the idea of dropping learning implants entirely and adding more hard wirings and 'corporate implant' sets (to go along side the pirate faction ones) . Are we citing rectally sourced figures in this argument? OK, tens of thousands of players operate in 0.0, and 95% of them use implants. Are you sure? I just checked the last 20 0.0 capsule kills on eve-kill and the breakdown is: 3 x +2's 3 x +4's 1 x +5's So, your 95% figure seems somewhat strained. Only 4 people took any significant risk at all. (A fully fit caracal is worth more than a set of +2's.) You might need to tune your sarcasm detector, it seems a tad off.
So he was being sarcastic when he claimed that people were all packing their heads full of implants and going out there LIVING IT UP HARDCORE?
What would be the problem with scrapping learning implants and adding another 5 sets of hard wirings that people could use to actually mix up the dynamic of spaceships. An implant that adds another 5MB of drone bandwith or such. |
Felicity Love
STARKRAFT
192
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 14:06:00 -
[92] - Quote
Put CONCORD on "sick leave" for 3 days, and achieve the same effect with far greater zhitz and gigglez. |
Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
233
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 14:08:00 -
[93] - Quote
Felicity Love wrote:Put CONCORD on "sick leave" for 3 days, and achieve the same effect with far greater zhitz and gigglez.
People just wouldn't undock, it would just be a war dec writ large.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7147
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 14:12:00 -
[94] - Quote
Doctor Ungabungas wrote: What would be the problem with scrapping learning implants and adding another 5 sets of hard wirings that people could use to actually mix up the dynamic of spaceships. An implant that adds another 5MB of drone bandwith or such.
Why do we have to scrap learning implants to have Slot 1-5 hardwirings? Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Raw Matters
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
18
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 14:19:00 -
[95] - Quote
I do agree with the OP, one of the many reasons I do not venture into 0.0 is because of my implants. Now I got these +5 and I am not too scared to undock and sometimes drift through low sec without much thought, but 0.0 with the chance to loose more than half a billion worth of ISK when podded without a chance to escape? No way!
Now 0.0 players say: "Whats the deal, just buy a new set!" but that is blatantly ignoring the fact that you earn a lot more money in 0.0 than in high-sec. Currently with maxed out skills and some excellent equipment and ships, I am burning through missions at a speed that scares most people, yet I still would have to run missions for 15-20 hours straight, to refinance my implants. Other players with less skills/equipment would easily have to run twice that much to get their +5 implants back, while 0.0 players can finance those with just one lucky drop in any of these 10/10 DEDs.
If CCP would make it so that you do not loose your attribute implants when dieing, I am sure a lot more people would take a look at 0.0, because then all you can loose is your ship, and that can be fitted properly to match your ISK income. |
Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
234
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 14:24:00 -
[96] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote: What would be the problem with scrapping learning implants and adding another 5 sets of hard wirings that people could use to actually mix up the dynamic of spaceships. An implant that adds another 5MB of drone bandwith or such.
Why do we have to scrap learning implants to have Slot 1-5 hardwirings?
We don't, it would just be a nice synergy where we get two benefits at once:
People worried about losing learning implants would be more willing to get out and lose their 8 million isk rifter, people who love bleeding edge combat can buy a bigger range of hard wirings to give them that 0.3% edge they need.
|
Malcanis
Vanishing Point. The Initiative.
7148
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 14:26:00 -
[97] - Quote
If loss-free combat was what people wanted, we'd have a lot more people on SiSi than we do. Vote for Malcanis for CSM8 https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=192717&find=unread |
Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
234
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 14:36:00 -
[98] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:If loss-free combat was what people wanted, we'd have a lot more people on SiSi than we do.
Maybe people don't want loss free combat, they just don't want to lose their 120 million dollar implants when they feel like flying around a caracal until they lose it.
When I go looking for PvP, I'll know I'll be out there until I die or run out of missiles (this hasn't happened yet) so it's not a matter of risking implants, it's a matter of either going without or knowing that no matter what I am guaranteed to eat a 120m loss.
I choose to go without, because 120m will buy me a lot of caracals. (And I'm not alone, the stats I pulled show 75% of 0.0 capsules killed had no implants.)
So we're basically in a world now where the only people who get to use training implants are 0.1+ dwellers, and people with a lot of money. The second one doesn't bother me as much as the first one does. |
Gerard Hareka
State Protectorate Caldari State
5
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 14:45:00 -
[99] - Quote
Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Malcanis wrote:If loss-free combat was what people wanted, we'd have a lot more people on SiSi than we do. Maybe people don't want loss free combat, they just don't want to lose their 120 million dollar implants when they feel like flying around a caracal until they lose it. When I go looking for PvP, I'll know I'll be out there until I die or run out of missiles (this hasn't happened yet) so it's not a matter of risking implants, it's a matter of either going without or knowing that no matter what I am guaranteed to eat a 120m loss. I choose to go without, because 120m will buy me a lot of caracals. (And I'm not alone, the stats I pulled show 75% of 0.0 capsules killed had no implants.) So we're basically in a world now where the only people who get to use training implants are 0.1+ dwellers, and people with a lot of money. The second one doesn't bother me as much as the first one does.
Stop posting finnaly and stop flying with what you cant afford to lose.
|
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CCP Dolan
C C P C C P Alliance
252
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 14:47:00 -
[100] - Quote
Moved to Features and Ideas CCP Dolan | Community Representative
Twitter: @CCPDolan
Gooby pls |
|
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Doctor Ungabungas
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
238
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 14:48:00 -
[101] - Quote
Gerard Hareka wrote:Doctor Ungabungas wrote:Malcanis wrote:If loss-free combat was what people wanted, we'd have a lot more people on SiSi than we do. Maybe people don't want loss free combat, they just don't want to lose their 120 million dollar implants when they feel like flying around a caracal until they lose it. When I go looking for PvP, I'll know I'll be out there until I die or run out of missiles (this hasn't happened yet) so it's not a matter of risking implants, it's a matter of either going without or knowing that no matter what I am guaranteed to eat a 120m loss. I choose to go without, because 120m will buy me a lot of caracals. (And I'm not alone, the stats I pulled show 75% of 0.0 capsules killed had no implants.) So we're basically in a world now where the only people who get to use training implants are 0.1+ dwellers, and people with a lot of money. The second one doesn't bother me as much as the first one does. Stop posting finnaly and stop flying with what you cant afford to lose.
It's almost like that's exactly what I do. I know reading is hard, spelling too but jesus it was right there in the third paragraph. |
Gerard Hareka
State Protectorate Caldari State
6
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 15:36:00 -
[102] - Quote
How i ended up quoting you ... have no idea :)
Maybe because you are a goon .... |
Verlaine Glariant
Amphysvena
14
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 15:42:00 -
[103] - Quote
Malcanis wrote:People who are too risk averse to risk a couple of +4s will just find some other excuse to be risk averse if you remove them. This
www.amphysvena.org |
Commander Ted
Sudden Buggery Swift Angels Alliance
424
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 17:48:00 -
[104] - Quote
Meanwhile Garmon is out in null pvping with a high grade snake set. https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=174097 Separate all 4 empires in eve with lowsec. |
Xavier Thorm
Dreddit Test Alliance Please Ignore
35
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 19:00:00 -
[105] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:The most common reason people do not explore outside of high-security space is the price and risk posed by attribute implants.
I sincerely doubt this. |
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1698
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 19:43:00 -
[106] - Quote
Look at it this way.... no matter what you are training, nor how you are skillmapped, two +5 implants earn 450 sp / hour... or 324,000 sp / month.
Let's imagine the standard player earns about 2000 sp/hour... or about 1.5m SP / month. At 600m per plex for that month, each SP costs 400 isk... less if you train faster than 2085 sp/hr... and much less if that time a plex offers has value beyond skilltraining (which it typically does)!
Now, playing in an implantless clone rather than+5's can then be perceived as an isk cost of 4.32 m isk per day. So, the dream of taking an 8m isk rifter into nullsec to PvP includes a 5m isk surcharge for every day you stay there PvP'ing... This is hardly a "Major" disincentive!
I understand you can't turn isk into lost time, but the reality is people avoid nullsec not because of their implants, but because they are too risk adverse to venture there and lose a ship. The same thing goes for lowsec, where losing your Pod is a much more rare occurrence, as you can spam warp while dying and get your pod out 98% of the time.
|
Ganthrithor
GoonWaffe Goonswarm Federation
468
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 19:56:00 -
[107] - Quote
Oh dear, am I not supposed to be flying around nullsec in a snake set? Damnit, noone told me and I've been doing it for years! |
Darcel Black
The Scope Gallente Federation
14
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 20:02:00 -
[108] - Quote
Alternatively, make implants more expensive, but allow them to be removed? |
Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings Damu'Khonde
595
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 20:08:00 -
[109] - Quote
Quote:I understand you can't turn isk into lost time, but the reality is people avoid nullsec not because of their implants, but because they are too risk adverse to venture there and lose a ship. The same thing goes for lowsec, where losing your Pod is a much more rare occurrence, as you can spam warp while dying and get your pod out 98% of the time.
It does, however, set a minimum ship cost that makes sense in nullsec. No one is going to be flying rifters in nullsec if their clone costs 20m and their implants cost 60m. |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
216
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 20:45:00 -
[110] - Quote
Tom Gerard wrote:The most common reason people do not explore outside of high-security space is the price and risk posed by attribute implants.
Wrong. The most common reason is that their gameplay is too restricted there, and they cannot accomplish anything.
Most carebears that are real people (and not bots or nullsec alts) will take on a calculated risk for a calculated gain. The problem is that for most people, low/null represents unlimited risk and no gain, because they don't have the game knowledge to access it. Noone is giving them that knowledge either. Either by education, or by game mechanics, lowsec has to be easier to access. To be blunt, you are solving the wrong problem.
|
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Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed Agony Empire
1711
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 21:06:00 -
[111] - Quote
Kahega Amielden wrote:Quote:I understand you can't turn isk into lost time, but the reality is people avoid nullsec not because of their implants, but because they are too risk adverse to venture there and lose a ship. The same thing goes for lowsec, where losing your Pod is a much more rare occurrence, as you can spam warp while dying and get your pod out 98% of the time.
It does, however, set a minimum ship cost that makes sense in nullsec. No one is going to be flying rifters in nullsec if their clone costs 20m and their implants cost 60m.
This is NOT necessarily true... It's easier to move around nullsec in a rifter than say a BC or HAC... you often have a better chance of escape in a small ship...
Also, the 20m isk clone costs will hopefully be remedied in the future...
FYI: I fly frigates in nullsec with 2x +4's and often a 3% implant or two most of the time... and my clone costs 20m isk... I don't lose my pod very often, although I regularly lose ships. I guess it's how you fly, what you consider "acceptable" risks, and what makes isk-sense to you. |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3382
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 21:11:00 -
[112] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:Tom Gerard wrote:The most common reason people do not explore outside of high-security space is the price and risk posed by attribute implants.
Wrong. The most common reason is that their gameplay is too restricted there, and they cannot accomplish anything. Most carebears that are real people (and not bots or nullsec alts) will take on a calculated risk for a calculated gain. The problem is that for most people, low/null represents unlimited risk and no gain, because they don't have the game knowledge to access it. Noone is giving them that knowledge either. Either by education, or by game mechanics, lowsec has to be easier to access. To be blunt, you are solving the wrong problem. There's only so much you can do to help people who refuse to help themselves. In the end you're responsible for your own happiness. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm Want to enable BBcode on the forums? Here's how. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
479
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 21:36:00 -
[113] - Quote
Commander Ted wrote:Meanwhile Garmon is out in null pvping with a high grade snake set.
And who actually cares he goes out pvp with 3B implants or gives away 90billions to someone because he's drunk?
No one.
|
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
221
|
Posted - 2013.01.17 21:50:00 -
[114] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:Tom Gerard wrote:The most common reason people do not explore outside of high-security space is the price and risk posed by attribute implants.
Wrong. The most common reason is that their gameplay is too restricted there, and they cannot accomplish anything. Most carebears that are real people (and not bots or nullsec alts) will take on a calculated risk for a calculated gain. The problem is that for most people, low/null represents unlimited risk and no gain, because they don't have the game knowledge to access it. Noone is giving them that knowledge either. Either by education, or by game mechanics, lowsec has to be easier to access. To be blunt, you are solving the wrong problem. There's only so much you can do to help people who refuse to help themselves. In the end you're responsible for your own happiness. Yes, and that's why lowsec is so popular and everyone who tries EVE for the first time stays here
Its one thing to make people stand on their own two feet- it's another thing to make them do it while hacking at their shins with a blunt, rusty chainsaw. _ |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3385
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 03:32:00 -
[115] - Quote
Ines Tegator wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:Ines Tegator wrote:Tom Gerard wrote:The most common reason people do not explore outside of high-security space is the price and risk posed by attribute implants.
Wrong. The most common reason is that their gameplay is too restricted there, and they cannot accomplish anything. Most carebears that are real people (and not bots or nullsec alts) will take on a calculated risk for a calculated gain. The problem is that for most people, low/null represents unlimited risk and no gain, because they don't have the game knowledge to access it. Noone is giving them that knowledge either. Either by education, or by game mechanics, lowsec has to be easier to access. To be blunt, you are solving the wrong problem. There's only so much you can do to help people who refuse to help themselves. In the end you're responsible for your own happiness. Yes, and that's why lowsec is so popular and everyone who tries EVE for the first time stays here Its one thing to make people stand on their own two feet- it's another thing to make them do it while hacking at their shins with a blunt, rusty chainsaw. Well you mentioned lack of knowledge. How exactly are we supposed to force knowledge on people who are unwilling to seek it out for themselves? Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm Want to enable BBcode on the forums? Here's how. |
Ines Tegator
Towels R Us
224
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 04:48:00 -
[116] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote: Well you mentioned lack of knowledge. How exactly are we supposed to force knowledge on people who are unwilling to seek it out for themselves?
My point was that the community actively discourages people from learning, and punishes them when it try it themselves. _ |
psycho freak
Snuff Box
251
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 08:10:00 -
[117] - Quote
James Amril-Kesh wrote:psycho freak wrote:Tbh implants are dirt cheap these days learning imps more so coz of fw
most losec guys fly around in pirate implants that cost billions do they stay docked? Lowsec guys don't have to worry about bubbles, like, ever.
Nobody ever gets smart bombed ay? just look at pod kills on any pirate killbord
also it YOUR choice to go to null sec pointless bitching about implant afta you decided to live in null
to the guys saying they factor in the 10% value of loss due to implant lmfao its a game your gona die somtime enjoy it my spelling sux brb find phone number for someone who gives a fu*k
nop cant find it |
Eledinia
Perkone Caldari State
1
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 12:15:00 -
[118] - Quote
Risk is what makes Eve better than other MMO's, the fact you cant run back to your body as a ghost and pick everything up. A fight is exciting as you are risking X amount just for the excitement.
As for the "value" of a character - to me the value of my character is how much fun i can have with it. |
Tom Gerard
Glorious Nation of Kazakhstan
776
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 14:25:00 -
[119] - Quote
I have a three stop program to fix this issue:
1) Open the door 2) Get on the floor 3) Everybody walk the dinosaur
(USER WAS BANNED FOR THIS POST) |
James Amril-Kesh
4S Corporation RAZOR Alliance
3401
|
Posted - 2013.01.18 18:14:00 -
[120] - Quote
psycho freak wrote:James Amril-Kesh wrote:psycho freak wrote:Tbh implants are dirt cheap these days learning imps more so coz of fw
most losec guys fly around in pirate implants that cost billions do they stay docked? Lowsec guys don't have to worry about bubbles, like, ever. Nobody ever gets smart bombed ay? just look at pod kills on any pirate killbord also it YOUR choice to go to null sec pointless bitching about implant afta you decided to live in null to the guys saying they factor in the 10% value of loss due to implant lmfao its a game your gona die somtime enjoy it I was bitching? Where?
Eledinia wrote:Risk is what makes Eve better than other MMO's, the fact you cant run back to your body as a ghost and pick everything up. A fight is exciting as you are risking X amount just for the excitement.
As for the "value" of a character - to me the value of my character is how much fun i can have with it. As risk goes up, so should reward. I don't get any more reward for flying in null with my +5 implants than I would get sitting in station with them, but I get significantly greater risk than someone who flies in low or high with them.
The simple solution to this would be to make it so I can unplug attribute implants without destroying them. Phrases like "you can't nerf / buff X EVE is a Sandbox" have the same amount of meaning as "If this is a sack of potatoes then you can not carrot." - Alara IonStorm Want to enable BBcode on the forums? Here's how. |
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Luc Chastot
Moira. Villore Accords
181
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Posted - 2013.01.18 19:22:00 -
[121] - Quote
You could always use +3s to pvp, they're cheap and decent. Make it idiot-proof and someone will make a better idiot. |
Talodar
Exiles Corporation
0
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Posted - 2013.01.18 23:27:00 -
[122] - Quote
For me +3s seem to be the sweet spot for acceptable risk while still having a good boost to training speed.
There is still the problem of switching between carebearing with +5s and PvPing with +3s having a 1 day cooldown. The best idea in this thread so far IMO is to remove or reduce the cooldown on same station clone jumps. |
Spr09
East India Ore Trade The East India Co.
57
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Posted - 2013.01.19 00:08:00 -
[123] - Quote
Wow... This is an absolutely awful idea! While we're at it, let's remove the market from stations so people can't just sit and do that too.
So what if someone sits in a station to train skills? I've been put on terrible work schedules and just queued up on a long skill while I can't play, so should someone like me suffer 10-30 days of training loss because of a real life issue? No.
Don't accept people into your corp that don't undock, problem solved. |
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