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Seriphyn Inhonores
Soltueur Company
332
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Posted - 2013.01.17 15:18:00 -
[1] - Quote
A Federation citizen decides to join the army to fight against foreign invasion. His decision is primarily influenced by the articles in the Federation Constitution, and a particularly charismatic politician. He does not give it much independent thought, and simply goes ahead because all the third-party sources indicate this is the best decision. Planets are pillaged and thousands die due to militarism combined with liberal relativism.
A Caldari citizen decides to join the army to fight against foreign domination. His decision is primarily influenced by the fact that the megacorporations said so and that his fellow citizens compelled him to. He does not give it much independent thought, and simply goes ahead because all third-party sources indicate this is the best decision. Planets are pillaged and thousands die due to contempt for foreigners combined with social selectionism.
A Republic citizen decides to join the army to fight against slavery. His decision is primarily influenced by history and his coincedence of birth into a tribe. He does not give it much independent thought, and simply goes ahead because all third-party sources indicate this is the best decision. Planets are pillaged and thousands die due to vengeance combined with remorselessness.
An Amarrian citizen decidies to join the army to fight against heresy. His decision is primarily influenced by Scriptures, as well as the word of God through the Emperor. He does not give it much independent thought, and simply goes ahead because all third-party sources indicate this is the best decision. Planets are pillaged and thousands die due to religion combined with zealotry.
If you cannot see the double standards in arguing against the Amarr faith or any other religion while still supporting your own empire unquestionably, then...well...nothing. It's just a pity. |
Mensha Khael Crow
House Murder
38
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Posted - 2013.01.17 15:24:00 -
[2] - Quote
Messier Inhonores. Consider yourself to be in a position to make some small request from C0URT. With normal Caveats, naturally. |
Saede Riordan
Alexylva Paradox
3129
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Posted - 2013.01.17 15:39:00 -
[3] - Quote
Good thing I'm not 'supporting my empire unquestioningly' then.
Torn from grace, gotta find your faith or the devils gonna claim your soul
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Sepherim
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
142
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Posted - 2013.01.17 15:39:00 -
[4] - Quote
I understand the basic argument, and there is some truth in it. Though, I believe it is a simplified argument that leaves too many elements outside for it to be complete. First, not all citizens join their armies due to those arguments. I can't speak for the rest, but I've known people in the Navy that had enlisted for the pay, for glory, out of duty to the Empire, because of family tradition, to impress a girl, to escape from his life at home... and hundreds other stories. So yes, many may join because they want to spread His word, but that's not the only reason you find people in the Navy.
An, second, the argument relies completely on the base that people join the military without critical thought. Many do, indeed, their heads clear with the ideas that society puts in there. But many others have thought about it a lot, analyzed different courses of action, and finally decided that was the propper one. And even those that act as their society wants them to, may have actually given it a lot of independent thought before moving in to do as they are expected to.
So, as much as I can understand the message "don't criticize the other without understanding your own flawed origin", I believe it is an incomplete statement in this case that isn't completely appropriate. And that is considering you could even be independent of your own flawed origin, which probably isn't possible. As a sociologist in the university once said "I am myself and my circumstances"*.
*((OOC: the quote is from Ortega y Gasset, a spanish sociologist, but I'm sure it's a thought that could very well exist in EVE)) Sepherim Catillah; Ex-Imperial Navy Officer |
Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
16
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Posted - 2013.01.17 16:03:00 -
[5] - Quote
Saede Riordan wrote:Good thing I'm not 'supporting my empire unquestioningly' then.
Captain Lieutenant Midshipman Ms Lady Dame Dudette Otsito the Third. Lord High Thingamadoodle and Satrapess of the Paper Birds. The One who used to be The Keeper of the Toothbrush Threat Level: lol |
Wei Soikutsu
Soikutsu Optics LLC
10
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Posted - 2013.01.17 16:07:00 -
[6] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:A Caldari citizen decides to join the army to fight against foreign domination. His decision is primarily influenced by the fact that the megacorporations said so and that his fellow citizens compelled him to. He does not give it much independent thought, and simply goes ahead because all third-party sources indicate this is the best decision. Planets are pillaged and thousands die due to contempt for foreigners combined with social selectionism. Heiian and the Way are a little more complicated than what you present here, Msr. Inhonores, and under different circumstances I might have tried to explain this to you in detail.
However, the circumstances seem to be that there is currently quite a bit of debate raging where neither side has the slightest desire to be convinced by the other, or understand the other's point of view, or even agree on what is being debated, and they are being quite loud about it nevertheless.
I'll read the intent of the entire message as a general exhortation to take a step back and consider, and in doing so, agree.
Provisionally.
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Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
635
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Posted - 2013.01.17 16:23:00 -
[7] - Quote
Saede Riordan wrote:Good thing I'm not 'supporting my empire unquestioningly' then.
exactly this. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front Intaki Prosperity Initiative
158
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Posted - 2013.01.17 18:59:00 -
[8] - Quote
Very thought provoking. I like it.
If others are free to add their own...
A Secessionist decides not to join the army, but instead resists foreign invasion and domination by other means. His decision is primarily influenced by the failings of the Federation and yes, by those of the Assembly. He is known for his independent thought, and considers a range of third-party sources before taking what he believes to be the best course of action. Planets are pillaged and thousands die due to the cycle of conflict in someone else's war, despite his calls for peace.
How did I do? Bataav en Gravonere IPI & ILF Diplomat
Intaki Endures! |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
395
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Posted - 2013.01.17 20:17:00 -
[9] - Quote
Bataav wrote:Very thought provoking. I like it. If others are free to add their own... A Secessionist decides not to join the army, but instead resists foreign invasion and domination by other means. His decision is primarily influenced by the failings of the Federation and yes, by those of the Assembly. He is known for his independent thought, and considers a range of third-party sources before taking what he believes to be the best course of action. Planets are pillaged and thousands die due to the cycle of conflict in someone else's war, despite his calls for peace. How did I do?
The last sentence is supposed to paint the negative impact the actions of the character have on the rest of the cluster, if I understand correctly. |
Evi Polevhia
N.E.R.O. Inc.
19
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Posted - 2013.01.17 21:33:00 -
[10] - Quote
Question the State. Question the Milita. Question the Empires. Question CONCORD. Question the SCC. Question the wars.
Question the motives of the Capsuleers. And the fate of us all if we don't change.
There has to be a better way then what we see before us. |
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Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
1641
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Posted - 2013.01.17 23:05:00 -
[11] - Quote
A capsuleer decides to post on the IGS to rail against moral absolutism. His decision is primarily influenced by his desire for recognition, and a particularly obnoxious superiority complex. He does not give it much thought, and simply goes ahead because he believes assuming a position of false moderation will allow him to criticise everyone on all sides without retaliation. Eyes are rolled and thousands sigh due to disingenuity combined with moral relativism. Mane 614
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Jinari Otsito
Otsito Mining and Manufacture
17
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Posted - 2013.01.17 23:25:00 -
[12] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:A capsuleer decides to post on the IGS to rail against moral absolutism. His decision is primarily influenced by his desire for recognition, and a particularly obnoxious superiority complex. He does not give it much thought, and simply goes ahead because he believes assuming a position of false moderation will allow him to criticise everyone on all sides without retaliation. Eyes are rolled and thousands sigh due to disingenuity combined with moral relativism.
Stop making me like you. It makes my teeth itch. Captain Lieutenant Midshipman Ms Lady Dame Dudette Otsito the Third. Lord High Thingamadoodle and Satrapess of the Paper Birds. The One who used to be The Keeper of the Toothbrush Threat Level: lol |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
637
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Posted - 2013.01.17 23:47:00 -
[13] - Quote
Evi Polevhia wrote:Question the State. Question the Milita. Question the Empires. Question CONCORD. Question the SCC. Question the wars.
Question the motives of the Capsuleers. And the fate of us all if we don't change.
There has to be a better way then what we see before us.
The part people always seem to forget with this "question everything" rhetoric is "...and come up with an answer."
I've questioned much in my life. In many cases I found the thing I was questioning to be true, agreeable or at least justifiable.
An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Solarienne
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
24
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Posted - 2013.01.18 00:09:00 -
[14] - Quote
Bataav wrote:Very thought provoking. I like it. If others are free to add their own... A Secessionist decides not to join the army, but instead resists foreign invasion and domination by other means. His decision is primarily influenced by the failings of the Federation and yes, by those of the Assembly. He is known for his independent thought, and considers a range of third-party sources before taking what he believes to be the best course of action. Planets are pillaged and thousands die due to the cycle of conflict in someone else's war, despite his calls for peace. How did I do?
As much as I agree with your wish to declare you independence, that being a strong part of Caldari history, those who call for peace are bluffing or losing. Never trust someone who comes alone showing you his palms and a flag of truce, for surely his flag bearer and bodyguard are elsewhere and up to no good.
After all, of the methods of obtaining peace, fighting for it is often, but not always, the most absolute way to achieve it if you have the strength of arms. Discussion is merely the postponement of the dominance of one idea over another. Negotiate for time, fight for peace.
As for the original post and topic at large? People do terrible things by other people's standards to pursue their own. It's when you find yourself overstepping your own standards, be they the rule of law or lessons learned during your formative years, that you have a problem. So long as you serve a cause, and the people of that cause adore you for it, you are acting in a just manner. The opinions of outsiders are worth only as much as the ammunition to put an end to those opinions costs. |
Streya Jormagdnir
Alexylva Paradox
101
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Posted - 2013.01.18 04:57:00 -
[15] - Quote
Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
If you cannot see the double standards in arguing against the Amarr faith or any other religion while still supporting your own empire unquestionably, then...well...nothing. It's just a pity.
The sort of person who is inclined to question the Amarrian faith in a so formal and rational a manner is the same sort of person who wouldn't support a particular government in such an unwavering manner as you suggest. Caricaturized nationalistic cartoon villians tend not to employ set theory.
We Are Tomorrow |
Atlas Zao-tsu
University of Caille Gallente Federation
13
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Posted - 2013.01.18 12:58:00 -
[16] - Quote
You must watch the wrong cartoons then! Seriously. Has nobody seen Dr. Mao Wuhei and His Numero-Logical Chart Adventures? It's a classic in the math-related animation set. |
Halete
Alexylva Paradox
612
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Posted - 2013.01.18 13:26:00 -
[17] - Quote
Oh come on, Seriphyn, really?
Trying to be the mediator? You? And here I was, convinced you couldn't crawl any further up your own ass. Trading chains for shackles, I am free. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
396
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Posted - 2013.01.18 21:17:00 -
[18] - Quote
Streya Jormagdnir wrote:Seriphyn Inhonores wrote:
If you cannot see the double standards in arguing against the Amarr faith or any other religion while still supporting your own empire unquestionably, then...well...nothing. It's just a pity.
The sort of person who is inclined to question the Amarrian faith in a so formal and rational a manner is the same sort of person who wouldn't support a particular government in such an unwavering manner as you suggest. Caricaturized nationalistic cartoon villians tend not to employ set theory.
Not only, sadly. |
Davlos
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
4
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Posted - 2013.01.20 08:54:00 -
[19] - Quote
I demand full compensation of the 3 minutes of my life wasted in reading this nonsense. |
Kithrus
Deus Fides Empire Curatores Veritatis Alliance
232
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Posted - 2013.01.20 14:11:00 -
[20] - Quote
There's nothing wrong in what he said except that everyone feels the need to pick it to pieces.
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