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Tobias Annages
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.01.19 03:42:00 -
[1] - Quote
http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5029&tid=5
Whilst know one has either come forward to claim responsibility or been officially blamed rumors are emerging that rouge elements within the State military executed Marice Lemant in retaliation for the "Mort Media" holoreels that he was believed to have published.
More News as we get it.
The Scope |
Stitcher
Re-Awakened Technologies Inc
642
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Posted - 2013.01.19 04:50:00 -
[2] - Quote
Tobias Annages wrote:...rouge elements within the State military
This is why it's always a bad idea to put makeup on a Civire...
All joking aside, the man's involvement with those reels meant he definitely deserved being on the receiving end of some form ofappropriate justice. I know the Provists, KK and the Patriot bloc don't go in for public trials - too Gallentean for their tastes - but if he was just summarily executed in a basement somewhere then that's a PR opportunity sadly missed at the very least.
In Ishukone, execution without trial would also be a gross breach of corporate law but the Provists aren't a megacorporate force, I'm not... entirely sure what laws they're bound by in these circumstances, if any. Don't rightly know what Home Guard's rules are, either.
So, justice of a sort, but at the same time more evidence (as if we needed it) that the Provists really don't give a damn about international relations, not even when they can exploit a high-profile scenario to make themselves look good. You'd hope our trenchcoated overlords would be a little less short-sighted. Never waste a resource you can exploit. An in-character blog and a video: http://verinsjournal.blogspot.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tu1mbsgo738
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Katrina Oniseki
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
1060
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Posted - 2013.01.19 05:08:00 -
[3] - Quote
His untimely death could only be more fitting if it were recorded too. |
Vikarion
Liandri Corporation Liandri Covenant
169
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Posted - 2013.01.19 05:24:00 -
[4] - Quote
Katrina Oniseki wrote:His untimely death could only be more fitting if it were recorded too.
And sold.
I'd like to know your source for claiming he's been executed, however. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
248
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Posted - 2013.01.19 06:46:00 -
[5] - Quote
Gallente accused of complicity in warcrimes being held in State custody is found dead, surrounded by dead State servicemen in a building that was exploded during the middle of a Gallente invasion AFTER the Federal military claimed to have found no evidence of the warcrimes clearly shown in the vidoes - and we're talking about how the Provists are the bad people?
Who really had the motivation to silence this man? |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
1698
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Posted - 2013.01.19 07:05:00 -
[6] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Gallente accused of complicity in warcrimes being held in State custody is found dead, surrounded by dead State servicemen in a building that was exploded during the middle of a Gallente invasion AFTER the Federal military claimed to have found no evidence of the warcrimes clearly shown in the vidoes - and we're talking about how the Provists are the bad people?
Who really had the motivation to silence this man?
Someone doesn't grasp the chain of events properly.
News Report wrote:According to the Federal Defence Union, ground forces came across the facility soon after ground fighting began, being defended by a small band of stragglers from the Provists. However, the majority of the facility had already been destroyed and M. Lemant had been dead for several hours. An autopsy performed by an FDU coroner confirmed that he was killed by a sustained burst of small arms fire consistent with weaponry used by some elite Caldari commando forces, as were many of the Provist bodies recovered from the site.
You're saying that the Provists - violent anti-Gallentean racists and war criminals in illegitimate control of the State - who were defending a building from Federation ground forces just let a member of the FIO or some similar pro-Federal organisation in so that they could murder the Provists' intelligence asset and some of their loyal men?
If the Provists are that accomodating, perhaps they'll let me walk into his office on New Caldari Prime and double-tap Heth in the back of the skull, and solve a problem for both our countries. Mane 614
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Aquila Shadow
Templis Dragonaors
41
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Posted - 2013.01.19 07:21:00 -
[7] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Gallente accused of complicity in warcrimes being held in State custody is found dead, surrounded by dead State servicemen in a building that was exploded during the middle of a Gallente invasion AFTER the Federal military claimed to have found no evidence of the warcrimes clearly shown in the vidoes - and we're talking about how the Provists are the bad people?
Who really had the motivation to silence this man? Someone doesn't grasp the chain of events properly. News Report wrote:According to the Federal Defence Union, ground forces came across the facility soon after ground fighting began, being defended by a small band of stragglers from the Provists. However, the majority of the facility had already been destroyed and M. Lemant had been dead for several hours. An autopsy performed by an FDU coroner confirmed that he was killed by a sustained burst of small arms fire consistent with weaponry used by some elite Caldari commando forces, as were many of the Provist bodies recovered from the site. You're saying that the Provists - violent anti-Gallentean racists and war criminals in illegitimate control of the State - who were defending a building from Federation ground forces just let a member of the FIO or some similar pro-Federal organisation in so that they could murder the Provists' intelligence asset and some of their loyal men? If the Provists are that accomodating, perhaps they'll let me walk into his office on New Caldari Prime and double-tap Heth in the back of the skull, and solve a problem for both our countries.
You see to be missing the part were it is the scope that reported this and that any other independent wittiness that are not Federal soldiers are all dead.
Think about it, Federal forces overrun a Provist base and inside they find a Gallente reporter that is implicated in crimes against humanity. It would be a political nightmare for the Federation to admit that they found this reporter and are not going to press charges. But if they do press charges the President looks like he is sympathetic to the State. So what is an enterprising Roden to do? Frame the Caldari, why not? its always worked in the past. He ships in some Provist prisoners and throws them in a room with this reporter. He then gets a group of soldiers (probably a SSDII agents) hands them Caldari made weapons that is standard issue among State Spec Ops, and tells them to kill everyone in the room. place the bodies around the room in a way that suits the cover story. Take a few pictures, maybe even film the room on a gun cam to make it look all dramatic and finally inform The Scope. -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á "Let Vigilance Be Your Sword" |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
1698
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Posted - 2013.01.19 07:26:00 -
[8] - Quote
Aquila Shadow wrote:You see to be missing the part were it is the scope that reported this and that any other independent wittiness that are not Federal soldiers are all dead.
That, unfortunately, is what tends to happen when you refuse to surrender to Federal forces recovering territory that you've occupied.
Aquila Shadow wrote:Think about it, Federal forces overrun a Provist base and inside they find a Gallente reporter that is implicated in crimes against humanity. It would be a political nightmare for the Federation to admit that they found this reporter and are not going to press charges. But if they do press charges the President looks like he is sympathetic to the State. So what is an enterprising Roden to do? Frame the Caldari, why not? its always worked in the past. He ships in some Provist prisoners and throws them in a room with this reporter. He then gets a group of soldiers (probably a SSDII agents) hands them Caldari made weapons that is standard issue among State Spec Ops, and tells them to kill everyone in the room. place the bodies around the room in a way that suits the cover story. Take a few pictures, maybe even film the room on a gun cam to make it look all dramatic and finally inform The Scope.
That's a rather grand conspiracy theory you've brewed up there. Got any evidence to support it, even anecdotal? Mane 614
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Aquila Shadow
Templis Dragonaors
41
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Posted - 2013.01.19 07:33:00 -
[9] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Aquila Shadow wrote:You see to be missing the part were it is the scope that reported this and that any other independent wittiness that are not Federal soldiers are all dead. That, unfortunately, is what tends to happen when you refuse to surrender to Federal forces recovering territory that you've occupied. Aquila Shadow wrote:Think about it, Federal forces overrun a Provist base and inside they find a Gallente reporter that is implicated in crimes against humanity. It would be a political nightmare for the Federation to admit that they found this reporter and are not going to press charges. But if they do press charges the President looks like he is sympathetic to the State. So what is an enterprising Roden to do? Frame the Caldari, why not? its always worked in the past. He ships in some Provist prisoners and throws them in a room with this reporter. He then gets a group of soldiers (probably a SSDII agents) hands them Caldari made weapons that is standard issue among State Spec Ops, and tells them to kill everyone in the room. place the bodies around the room in a way that suits the cover story. Take a few pictures, maybe even film the room on a gun cam to make it look all dramatic and finally inform The Scope. That's a rather grand conspiracy theory you've brewed up there. Got any evidence to support it, even anecdotal?
The fact that any idiot with money can buy Caldari navy special forces weapons. looking at my contracts page i can see a few for sale. Also the fact that the Provists were murders be Caldari forces is a little far fetched. It wouldn't surprise me if Caldari fores wanted the reporter dead but killing fellow soldiers to do it is about as ludicrous as saying the Minmatar actually enjoyed slavery. -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á "Let Vigilance Be Your Sword" |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
1699
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 08:03:00 -
[10] - Quote
Aquila Shadow wrote:The fact that any idiot with money can buy Caldari navy special forces weapons. looking at my contracts page i can see a few for sale. Also the fact that the Provists were murders be Caldari forces is a little far fetched. It wouldn't surprise me if Caldari forces wanted the reporter dead but killing fellow soldiers to do it is about as ludicrous as saying the Minmatar actually enjoyed slavery.
The public trial and judgment of that reporter would have been a massive propaganda boom for the State. why would they kill him in such a messy way?
I don't know. The Caldari State has been making a lot of questionable decisions lately - given that you've let a fanatical terrorist group responsible for a large number of the worst war crimes in the history of the cluster openly fight for the State as a member corporation, I couldn't even begin to venture a guess. Mane 614
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Aquila Shadow
Templis Dragonaors
41
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Posted - 2013.01.19 08:21:00 -
[11] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Aquila Shadow wrote:The fact that any idiot with money can buy Caldari navy special forces weapons. looking at my contracts page i can see a few for sale. Also the fact that the Provists were murders be Caldari forces is a little far fetched. It wouldn't surprise me if Caldari forces wanted the reporter dead but killing fellow soldiers to do it is about as ludicrous as saying the Minmatar actually enjoyed slavery.
The public trial and judgment of that reporter would have been a massive propaganda boom for the State. why would they kill him in such a messy way? I don't know. The Caldari State has been making a lot of questionable decisions lately - given that you've let a fanatical terrorist group responsible for a large number of the worst war crimes in the history of the cluster openly fight for the State as a member corporation, I couldn't even begin to venture a guess.
The Federation Navy enjoy ramming Super Capitals into stations and they also openly fight for the Federation. I'm failing to see your point. -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á "Let Vigilance Be Your Sword" |
Andreus Ixiris
Mixed Metaphor
1699
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Posted - 2013.01.19 08:29:00 -
[12] - Quote
Aquila Shadow wrote:The Federation Navy enjoy ramming Super Capitals into stations and they also openly fight for the Federation. I'm failing to see your point.
This falacy trotted out by Caldari loyalists has been done to death and isn't even regularly used by Caldari loyalists anymore. The Federation Navy did not authorise an offensive strike on a civilian station occupied by members of the Federation's own diplomatic team, and if they did, you can bet they'd have found a much more efficient way to do it than the sacrifice of an incredibly expensive asset. Mane 614
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Aquila Shadow
Templis Dragonaors
41
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Posted - 2013.01.19 08:40:00 -
[13] - Quote
Andreus Ixiris wrote:Aquila Shadow wrote:The Federation Navy enjoy ramming Super Capitals into stations and they also openly fight for the Federation. I'm failing to see your point. This falacy trotted out by Caldari loyalists has been done to death and isn't even regularly used by Caldari loyalists anymore. The Federation Navy did not authorise an offensive strike on a civilian station occupied by members of the Federation's own diplomatic team, and if they did, you can bet they'd have found a much more efficient way to do it than the sacrifice of an incredibly expensive asset.
And the State did not authorize the bombing of Nouvelle Rouvenor. Soon after we had Federation navy ships in orbit bombing Civilian cities and we were forced to fight our way out and find a new home. Meanwhile the federation navy were labeled as heroes.
The Templis Dragonaurs are now an official unit within the Sate military, to be honest they have been for some time. So what if their past is steeped in the blood of the Gallente? The Federation navies is drenched in the blood of the Cladari, hell they probably got a medal for bombing Caldari Prime. -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á "Let Vigilance Be Your Sword" |
Tobias Annages
The Scope Gallente Federation
0
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Posted - 2013.01.19 08:57:00 -
[14] - Quote
If we could please leave this thread free for possible news updates and not cultural arguing it would be appreciated. |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
396
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Posted - 2013.01.19 10:41:00 -
[15] - Quote
I am slightly surprised. The Provists would have gained much more by simply letting the man alone and free, and let the Federation to deal with him, to begin with. |
Solarienne
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
30
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Posted - 2013.01.19 11:03:00 -
[16] - Quote
Let's not take away from this the relief that a clearly perverted individual is dead at the hands of the rightful authorities. Instead, let us realise that this is what we are dealing with here.
We Caldari are known for our love of combat oriented sports, the broadcast of such being the foundation of many an entertainment subsidiary of NOH over our history. But this is a new sickness entirely, one propagated by the lax decency laws and low ethics of some Federation media outlets, eager to feed a sick sub-set of their population images of vile abuse that they bay for and crave. Now it would be easy to blame their government, and indeed their public, sickening execution of one of their own would lend weight to this, but such is a simplistic and narrow-sighted view of the matter.
Truly, that public execution did cater to those afflicted with the sickness of mind to take pleasure in it in any measure, but it is the unwillingness to excise that desire, to punish deviant cravings and moderate their own people that has led to this. The Federation is not guilty of being the source of a heinous obsession that goes far beyond this one man, it is guilty of being a bad parent.
Yes, I know, the retort will be some probable truth of what my nation has done to foreign soldiers, agents and citizenry in the name of war. Foreigners are given short shrift in the State, and rightfully so, but here's the rub. We do not neatly package up the contents of our interrogations and pass them around like some curio to be watched for pleasure. Those that fall prey to such a sickness of mind, should, and I hope have, been given the same treatment as this journalist. A forgettable end at the hands of justice.
Interrogation is undignified, no matter how stoic the individual. I expect that a State marine capture by the Federation, or vice versa, is going to be subject to some gruelling days in the lead up to their release or the end of the lives at the hands of their captors. But for the love of all that is good, we should allow our opposite numbers dignity in death, even an outsider deserves to be remembered as dying with honour, not in some gore-soaked rendition of the sometimes unmanning reality of how some act when faced with their end. |
Wei Soikutsu
Soikutsu Optics LLC
13
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Posted - 2013.01.19 12:34:00 -
[17] - Quote
One aspect which I feel is being under-represented in the discussion:
"The Scope" wrote: An autopsy performed by an FDU coroner confirmed that he was killed by a sustained burst of small arms fire consistent with weaponry used by some elite Caldari commando forces, as were many of the Provist bodies recovered from the site. A typical example of Scope sleuthing . A sustained burst of small arms fire is indeed "consistent" with weaponry in use by Caldari commandoes, as well as every armed force which uses automatic small arms.
Ignoring this for the moment, it does make the very important point that many of the Providence Directorate guards overseeing Msr. Lemant were killed in the same fashion as he was. Either his executioners had terrible aim, or they were rogue or enemy elements.
No matter which of the two it was -- under imminent threat of invasion by enemy forces, the Provists defended, to the death, a man to whom they owed less than nothing; for no more than a deep respect for the law, and enduring sense of duty.
Consider that, the next time you feel the need to casually malinger the CPD. |
Katran Luftschreck
Royal Ammatar Engineering Corps
741
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Posted - 2013.01.19 14:52:00 -
[18] - Quote
I'm curious as to why these alleged Caldari hitmen decided to kill only Lemant and then leave the Provists untouched & unaware for the Federation to clean up hours later? Or even how they managed to do this? Does this add up for you? Because it doesn't add up for me at all. Next they're going to tell us it was just one guy with six guns or something. EvE Forum Bingo |
Ollie Rundle
The Synenose Accord Celestial Imperative
16
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Posted - 2013.01.21 01:17:00 -
[19] - Quote
Wei Soikutsu wrote:A typical example of Scope sleuthing. A sustained burst of small arms fire is indeed "consistent" with weaponry in use by Caldari commandos, as well as every armed force which uses automatic small arms. Ignoring this for the moment:
It does make the very important point that many of the Providence Directorate guards overseeing Msr. Lemant were killed in the same fashion as he was. Either his executioners had terrible aim, or they were rogue or enemy elements.
Your deductions are absolutely accurate, Ms. Soikutsu. You've avoided the emotive reaction of many of your comrades and so-called peers. Well done.
The report also notes that the facility had been destroyed and the journalist was killed several hours prior to FDU-aligned ground forces over-running it. Further it notes that they did so in the face of opposition from Provist 'stragglers' characterised as defending the facility.
Unfortunately it does not clarify whether the Provist bodies 'recovered from the site' were those of the interrogators or those defending it when the FDU got there or, in fact, whether they were one and the same.
Until this point is resolved unequivocally, I feel that both sides will have sufficient justification to continue pointing fingers of blame at the other and the truth is unlikely to come to light. |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
742
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Posted - 2013.01.21 13:15:00 -
[20] - Quote
I took part in the final assault (I was the Fleet Commander of the 100 man capsuleer fleet that was responsible for making the system vulnerable ) and can safely say FDU capsuleer forces were largely oblivious to this event.
Of course as soon the system fell we were too busy partying, drinking and celebrating. After I docked much to the surprise of my crew I ran out the ship with my shirt pulled over my head in hysteria. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
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Seriphyn Inhonores
Soltueur Company
342
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Posted - 2013.01.21 14:36:00 -
[21] - Quote
Messer Hakatain is the only Caldari gentleman here who has shown some actual intellect in deconstructing what developed here. Both the Federation and Caldari justice systems are just that; systems. When you knock off an individual just because "Well we don't like you or what you do" without due process, you undermine your entire code of justice. It's completely arbitrary; you can proceed to just execute anyone you want at a whim. I know the Caldari system is authoritarian, but it is certainly not tyrannical. If I was a Caldari, I'd be ashamed for thinking it acceptable to just off anyone you don't like.
The rest of you are also forgetting the previous development.
Quote:The journalist being detained by the Caldari Providence Directorate has apparently been supplying "actionable intelligence" to the Caldari State, according to a leaked report from the Caldari Navy. The contents of the report have renewed calls for the journalist to be handed over to Federal authorities, which the State has repeatedly denied.
Your Provists were sheltering the journalist from Federation spooks. This comes regardless of the distasteful work he has been doing.
Neither FedGov nor the State are clean in this matter. As Messer Rundle has already pointed out, the truth behind this matter has been lost. We're simply plebs. If you simply want to nod profusely and utter "Oh yes, our governments are always correct, absolutely", then you will remain a pleb. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
254
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Posted - 2013.01.21 18:02:00 -
[22] - Quote
In all that talking above Msr Inhonores has said at least one thing that I agree with.
The truth of this matter is lost. Someone took a great deal of effort to kill everyone who had spoken with this man and destroy the building where he was being detained. Now, I understand why the Black Eagles might want him dead, rather than cooperating with State Inquiries, but I'm struggling to find a reason why the Provists wouldn't simply have pushed him up against a wall for a firing squad - without then later destroying both firing squad AND wall.
Really, would executing this criminal for his crimes have caused any outrage within the State? A majority of my kirjuun reacted to his death with little more than the words "I'm glad." |
Lyn Farel
Kitzless
401
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Posted - 2013.01.21 20:07:00 -
[23] - Quote
People do not tend to really care to bypass laws when they are emotionally involved. |
Sakura Nihil
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
113
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Posted - 2013.01.22 22:09:00 -
[24] - Quote
Stitcher wrote:Tobias Annages wrote:...rouge elements within the State military This is why it's always a bad idea to put makeup on a Civire man...
There, I fixed your quote for you.
I haven't seen these videos, nor do I care. Anytime someone watches playback of a fleet fight in space, you're essentially watching a snuff film for hundreds or thousands of individuals. Yet it seems to be a popular pastime around the cluster.
Why is this any different? |
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
455
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Posted - 2013.01.23 02:09:00 -
[25] - Quote
Sakura Nihil wrote:I haven't seen these videos, nor do I care. Anytime someone watches playback of a fleet fight in space, you're essentially watching a snuff film for hundreds or thousands of individuals. Yet it seems to be a popular pastime around the cluster.
Why is this any different?
I think I can be of help to you in answering this question, ma'am.
Watching video or holo of people, with their faces and bodies visible, triggers mirror neurons which activate sympathetic structures within the brain. This creates empathy, emotion, and in some cases, physical sensations or muscle movements. These powerful sensations are the foundation of our existence as social beings and play a part in all of our interactions, as well as our mental health.
Watching another person suffering injury, pain or death triggers strong emotions within us, for the aforementioned reasons. Watching hundreds or thousands die, but not actually being able to see the deaths, does not trigger these neutral structures. The feelings we feel are secondary emotions and not as strong, and can be overwhelmed by other emotions - patriotism, triumph, satisfaction of a job well done.
That is the difference between watching a thousand die in a reactor overload accident and watching a single individual die in brutality.
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Sakura Nihil
Selective Pressure Rote Kapelle
113
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Posted - 2013.01.23 04:27:00 -
[26] - Quote
No doubt, I'm simply asking that standards be applied consistently.
I just find it amusing that people involved with killing thousands of people on a regular basis, be they other podder ships or pirate vessels, get so worked up over the loss of a few lives. |
Thoun Gaterau
Federal Intelligence Office Gallente Federation
24
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Posted - 2013.01.23 09:00:00 -
[27] - Quote
The inherent need within a Capsuleer's mentality to spin drama and conspiracy never ceases to amaze me.
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Aquila Shadow
Caldari Office Of Naval Intelligence
50
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Posted - 2013.01.23 09:21:00 -
[28] - Quote
Thoun Gaterau wrote: The inherent need within a Capsuleer's mentality to spin drama and conspiracy never ceases to amaze me.
Says the FIO spook. -á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á-á "Let Vigilance Be Your Sword" |
Scherezad
Lai Dai Research Spacelane Security
455
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Posted - 2013.01.23 15:47:00 -
[29] - Quote
Sakura Nihil wrote:No doubt, I'm simply asking that standards be applied consistently.
I just find it amusing that people involved with killing thousands of people on a regular basis, be they other podder ships or pirate vessels, get so worked up over the loss of a few lives.
Ma'am;
You are requesting psychopathy. Empathizing with individuals and small groups moreso than large groups is a hallmark of the human cognitive structure, as flawed as the fact may be.
I hope that you will come to cherish these instances of empathy instead of scorning them. They are few enough in the Cluster, and ought to be valued when encountered. |
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