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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
739
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Posted - 2013.01.19 14:56:00 -
[1] - Quote
Read everything before replying or I'll just ignore you. I apologize in advance for my sense of humor.
One thing that has been bothering me and my friends is that people are trying to go against the backstory of their character's empire.
For instance if you think slavery, blind religious zealotry and fanaticism are bad things, you should not have picked Amarr. It's quite simple there's no way to spin this around. The Amarr society is fundamentally evil, they look evil too. If you got a problem with your character being from a society that is built on the back of something as primitive and cruel as slavery and genocide then you should stop complaining and make a new character.
It's like having a race of people that sustains itself by eating newborns. Then you complain to CCP why they make the race seem 'evil'.
The 'space fascists'... a favorite of mine. The Caldari State is the closest thing to a dystopia the universe has. We have an insane dictator with a backstory worthy of real world despots, hypercapitalism and selfish greedy megacorporations and a cyberpunk setting. As much as I think it's kinda cool because I'm a huge fan of cyberpunk, there's just not a positive spin to Caldari society. Nobody sane would ever like to live there. We go back to character design, Caldari characters look evil as well. And their ships remind me of the Empire from Star Wars for some strange reason. Just with less lasers. I could count with both hands the numbers of likeminded capitalists I studied with at my university and we all would cringe at the thought of living in the Caldari State.
These are clearly the 'ebil guise' of the universe. It's no wonder they have allied together. It's the Gallente Federation's dream to justify it's existence. It's a 'space axis of evil'.
The Minmatar Republic is like a rising third world country. Imagine space vikings that were enslaved for centuries suddenly get free to sail the seas of Europe again. You know blood is going to spill and whose blood they are out to get. Can you really blame them? I'd be angry too. Not only they are brash and rebelious, they have major wounded pride issues and seem to always want to compesate for that as well. It is basically a society that would do anything to for e-peen.
Now the Gallente Federation. What I've seen people like to say CCP picked Gallente to be the 'good guys' of the universe. Sure having things like a democracy, a constitution and a government that serves the people (not the other way around) are positive things (and therefore unfair). That's normal, you want to know why? Because the odds of you being born in a country and society with these qualities are very high. Sure the Federation has flaws but they still have the heart in the right place at least depending on the democratic cycles.
Now you have the Federation and the Republic working together. Just the name Federation and Republic have positive sides:
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheRepublic
http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TheFederation
We have a Republic out for revenge against a very clear target and for very clear reasons. Revenge is a heroic trait after all. Meanwhile the Federation is such an awesome contender that their very existence is a front to their enemies.
So we come down to faction design. CCP gave you an ice cream buffet with more than one flavor. If you don't liked the flavor you picked, try another. Try them all if you must. However do not screw around with the flavors. Leave them as they are.
Now if you want to have the flavor your own way then just accept the flavors for what they are and be happy with it.
For instance your character can be Amarr but it doesn't mean he has to support slavery. He realizes that its not something right to do but it's a reality he must live him in his society and its a part of his every day life. That's fine and dandy just respect the flavor rules.
Just had to get this out of my chest. Sorry again. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
739
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 15:17:00 -
[2] - Quote
Well it's like I said. You can have the flavor your own way, you can add chips and nuts and some fudge too so you can play your character your own way.
However when it comes to faction/empire design, just respect the flavor rules. It doesn't mean your character has to play by their rules however it's a reality he has to live with. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
740
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Posted - 2013.01.19 17:15:00 -
[3] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:The federation executed a guy by poisoning him with a sound sensitive agent, televised it, and then had the live studio audience literally clap him to death.
Your point?
SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
740
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Posted - 2013.01.19 17:29:00 -
[4] - Quote
Faction design rules clearly disagree with you. About people all being the same though laughable would be pretty boring. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
741
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 17:40:00 -
[5] - Quote
Tiberious Thessalonia wrote:They aren't the same. They are all evil in different ways.
So you believe that methods are all the same?
If I want to fight an enemy I would:
1)Cleanse a population and enslave survivors and people that surrender 2)Enter war with said planet due to revenge for atrocities they comitted in the past 3)Start a military and economic campaign to defeat the planet 4)Win the planet over through cultural/ideological warfare (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soft_power) 5)Abduct people from their homes in broad daylight and turn them into mindless sheep with no will of their own. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
741
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 18:06:00 -
[6] - Quote
Thgil Goldcore wrote: Just these values are so counter to our western culture values that they do come across as 'evil.'
I agree with most of what you said spot on. Of course an enslaver wouldn't see himself as evil as he would just believe he's doing god's work. However according to our own mindset (not of our characters) we would see them negatively. However there's people that are bothered by the fact their chosen faction is portrayed negactively in such a manner. CCP had a design in mind with all the factions to please people with different tastes and we should just stick with them.
The only thing I disagree with is the morality. I never claimed the Federation or the Republic to be saints but I do honestly believe they are indeed less evil than the other empires scaling historically speaking. That might just be me though. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
741
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 18:10:00 -
[7] - Quote
Jev North wrote:Mekhana wrote:Faction design rules Wha'? There's rules? Why didn't anyone tell me this! In any case - I actually agree with the main thrust of your argument, which seems to be that attempts to whitewash the dark sides of the EVE factions by people who've chosen to adopt them is kind of annoying. Unfortunately you seem to've failed to notice the beam in the Federation's eye, and expressed yourself in the most hyperbolic way possible on top of that; so hey, that point's probably going to get snowed under in the richly deserved roasting to come. Better luck next time?
English is not my first language and as you should have noticed this is an international game. I hope you enjoyed your little ad hominen at my expense. However that won't stop me from expressing myself in the way that pleases me the most.
Good day sir. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
741
|
Posted - 2013.01.19 23:20:00 -
[8] - Quote
That post made my day. <3 SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
742
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Posted - 2013.01.21 12:49:00 -
[9] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Irrefutable post.
I never claimed the Federation were saints However the way that the Factions are portrayed, that's the impression it gives unless you dwelve very deeply in the lore.
I'm not from a western country and Gallente behavior and self righteousness are outright insulting to me in real life. In fact I made this character as a mockery of people from certain countries that shall remain unnamed. If the Federation existed in real life, they'd be outright villanous to me.
SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
742
|
Posted - 2013.01.21 12:53:00 -
[10] - Quote
That's the worst and most unoriginal attempt at defaming my person. It's quite clear you hate my character as you take this game and universe too seemingly unhealthy proportions another thing is to insult me out of character for how my character acts.
Unless you suffer from a mental disability I suggest you get this through your head.
SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
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Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
751
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Posted - 2013.01.22 02:28:00 -
[11] - Quote
I assume we all just have to live with the fact that all empires are lawful neutral. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
754
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Posted - 2013.01.22 10:08:00 -
[12] - Quote
Maire Gheren wrote: Amarr is religious, and some religious people are zealots. SOME. Not all. Some. Most people in countries which are equally well known for religious extremism on Earth today might take offense to being told that they are zealous extremists. If someone started saying that everyone from a certain country was a hyper-religious terrorist, you'd think they were being a bigot. Lunatics on shock radio cant even get away with saying THAT. They can't say that, because it isn't true. Most people from those places just get on with the business of living. Why would it be any more reasonable to expect that of an entire nation here??
Honestly I have no idea how old the Amarr Empire is but I can safely assume its several thousands of years old. When you pick up a history book you can tell that countries that operated similar to a theocracy were all in their infancy and as soon realized what they have done was wrong they completely remove religion from the equation. It's easy to say that the secular state was a big step to politics and governments around. Theocracy is synonym with backwardness in our world. You can look at present day theocratic states that shall remain unnamed as a good example. So we have a several thousands of year old State that still adheres to theocracy That's point number one. Let's move on to point number two.
Maire Gheren wrote:Amarr has slavery - in an actually rather liberal form as a method of indoctrinating foreign cultures into their society. In this regard, Amarr has higher moral ground than Britain or America had, a couple centuries ago. I would also advise the OP read the history books of whatever country they are from. It will be hard to find any long-standing countries that AREN'T built on genocide and slavery. That doesn't make them exemplars of morality but it doesn't make them UNBRIDLED ANCIENT EEEEVIL.
Sorry but slavery and the world 'liberal' don't mix no matter how hard you try to make it work. Yes I agree certain countries have skeletons like these in their closets and that their atrocities are not on their history books for their children to see. However for a society as old and supposedly as cultered as the Amarr empire should know better. The impact that their religion has on their society is staggering and crippling. It makes them primitive when they should be advanced. That's point number two, on to point three.
Maire Gheren wrote:Because it's a bit of an eyeroller to have the nation that's built on a variant of the old British Empire's "white man's burden" that actually has been shown to lift a finger to do good with it - pretty morally gray, but you can go either way - be "evil" compared to the country that kidnaps people by outward racial appearance and dumps them in refugee camps as a way of boosting their population? I mean, that seems pretty grey and edgy to me too.
I agree but like I said many posts ago I was not painting white knights here. I roleplay a Gallente character because the Federation is villanious to me albeit in a very modern and realistic way but this is not something I expect a westerner to understand, people of western countries would find the Gallente Federation heroic when skimming through the lore and that is the point of this thread.. If I won a ship for every time someone mistook me for an American or European because of my character I'd be a very happy person as I'd be able to unsub my trader/hauler account.
Reached quote limit. Saving this one for another. On the Minmatar:
I never said they were. The Minmatar are a personification of chaos, I'm suprised they haven't turned to anarchy yet. It would fit them like a glove.
Quote:Gallente is similar. They've got freedom and democracy, sure. They're also known for being hedonists and for having an absolute certainty that their way is the best for everyone else.
I was dying to get to this part. You see hedonism as much attractive it may sound is a rather primitive philosophy. This is part of what makes the Gallente space greeks and romans. This is a crippling flaw of Gallente society, just like theocracy and slavery is with Amarr society. Non hedonist Gallente would show impressive amount of intellect and common sense just like a progressive Amarr would. That's point number 4.
Quote:Or accept that Amarr frees more slaves than Minmatar does, and that people are generally good and work within how their society works. There are a lot of things that are quite evil that a lot of real countries do. People either accept or defend them without raging that their country is evil to the core.
Well the same applies here. Here I am making an attempt at defending democracy in an internet forum while democracy is a flawed system (however still better than the alternatives but that's a lesson for another day.) While there are people here trying to defend slavery.
I hope you understand now.
SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
756
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:20:00 -
[13] - Quote
I'm not saying they are defending slavery from a IRL prespective. I was just making a comparison.
People get worked over their chosen faction just about as much over the country they were born or live in. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
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