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Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 3 post(s) |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
742
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Posted - 2013.01.21 12:49:00 -
[31] - Quote
CCP Falcon wrote:Irrefutable post.
I never claimed the Federation were saints However the way that the Factions are portrayed, that's the impression it gives unless you dwelve very deeply in the lore.
I'm not from a western country and Gallente behavior and self righteousness are outright insulting to me in real life. In fact I made this character as a mockery of people from certain countries that shall remain unnamed. If the Federation existed in real life, they'd be outright villanous to me.
SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
742
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Posted - 2013.01.21 12:53:00 -
[32] - Quote
That's the worst and most unoriginal attempt at defaming my person. It's quite clear you hate my character as you take this game and universe too seemingly unhealthy proportions another thing is to insult me out of character for how my character acts.
Unless you suffer from a mental disability I suggest you get this through your head.
SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
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CCP Eterne
C C P C C P Alliance
1923
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Posted - 2013.01.21 14:19:00 -
[33] - Quote
I have deleted some personal attacks from this thread. Community Representative GÇ+ EVE Illuminati GÇ+ Fiction Adept
@CCP_Eterne GÇ+ @EVE_LiveEvents |
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Tiberious Thessalonia
True Slave Foundations Shaktipat Revelators
1209
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Posted - 2013.01.21 14:27:00 -
[34] - Quote
Bienator II wrote:the art of good story telling is if you manage to create a bad guy which ends up having such clear and well thought out motives that he could be almost a good guy. If you don't do that you basically create a cartoon where the evil is just evil for the evils sake.
the problem with amarr is that slavery in such an advanced society is so evil that you have to find something very good to be still able to relate to that faction. And right now its very difficult IMO.
just my 2 c
This guys post is the best post.
Speaking as a guy who plays a member of one of the most blatantly villainous factions in EVE, I can tell you that a large part of our RP effort is dedicated towards doing anything other than becoming moustache twirling cartoon villains. We always have, dare I say it, altruistic reasons for doing the things we do, at least from our point of view.
No good villain ever believes they are the bad guy. They may believe that you are a misguided idiot led by idealism, and you just dont understand why the things they do are necessary. They may believe that they are doing bad things, but the good villains always view that as a grim thing. They may also not have the same sort of moral code as you, but they will always follow their own moral code.
People who are just plain evil for the sake of evil aren't interesting, frankly, from a storytelling point of view. |
Thgil Goldcore
Advenus Classem
508
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Posted - 2013.01.21 19:13:00 -
[35] - Quote
Horatius Caul wrote: what RP winning looks like
Congratulations sir... You have won eve online RP. |
Telegram Sam
Shoot 2 Thrill
882
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Posted - 2013.01.21 22:19:00 -
[36] - Quote
This is one of the most interesting threads I've seen in a long time. A lot of good points made by different people.
One interesting thing about the four factions is they seem to share (or be divided by) two sets of aspects. One set of aspects is Traditional vs. Modern. Amarr and Minmatar cultures are on the traditional end and Gallente and Caldari are on the more modern end. (By modern, I don't mean the level of the faction's technology. I mean the culture's outlook on such things as individuality, social mobility, and the role of family and extended family).
The other aspect is Egalitarian/Democratic vs. Stratified/Authoritarian. Gallente and Minmatar cultures would be more at the Egalitarian/Democratic end, Amarr and Caldari more at the other.
A rough chart I just did looks like this. If you look at it according to shared traits, Amarr (Traditional, Stratified) has the least in common with Gallente (Modern, Egalitarian). Similarly, Caldari (Modern, Stratified) shares the least with Minmatar (Traditional, Egalitarian). But the directly opposed cultures are not the prime enemies of each other. It is the Traditionals (Amarr and Minmatar) that are at war with each other and the Moderns (Gallente and Caldari) that are at war with each another.
Also, each faction culturally has as much in common with its prime enemy as it does with its ally. (Ex: Gallente has Modern in common with Caldari, but not with its ally Minmatar). This might explain why both of the alliances seem to be composed of strange bedfellows. Amarr theocratic, aristocratic, land- and slave-owning thinking is alien to Caldari ultra-capitalist corporate technocratic-meritocratric thinking, and vice versa. The same for Gallente modern democratic consumerist thinking vs. Minmatar tribe and warrior culture thinking. Culturally, the alliance partners have some large differences in outlook, and culturally they don't make natural allies. The allies share political and military considerations, but their cultural differences prevent them from becoming especially friendly.
Not to read too much into this little observation. Any time you draw a chart, you're probably oversimplify things. I just think it's interesting the four factions were laid out with shared similarities and shared differences. But they weren't laid out with the most-different faction as their prime enemy. The moralistic, conservative, authoritarian Amarr are not especially opposed to the hedonistic, loose-society, democratic Gallente. Not on ideological grounds, at least. The factions are opposed to their prime enemies because of issues of history and hegemony. I think this is a nice, rather sophisticated touch.
And now, Capricorn, we will look at a chart of the aspects that define your personality and your horoscope for today....
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Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
751
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Posted - 2013.01.22 02:28:00 -
[37] - Quote
I assume we all just have to live with the fact that all empires are lawful neutral. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
113
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Posted - 2013.01.22 05:11:00 -
[38] - Quote
Mekhana wrote:if you think slavery, blind religious zealotry and fanaticism are bad things, you should not have picked Amarr. It's quite simple there's no way to spin this around. The Amarr society is fundamentally evil, they look evil too. If you got a problem with your character being from a society that is built on the back of something as primitive and cruel as slavery and genocide then you should stop complaining and make a new character.
What?? Amarr is religious, and some religious people are zealots. SOME. Not all. Some. Most people in countries which are equally well known for religious extremism on Earth today - and the OP is likely in one of those - might take offense to being told that they are zealous extremists. If someone started saying that everyone from a certain country was a hyper-religious terrorist, you'd think they were being a bigot. Lunatics on shock radio cant even get away with saying THAT. They can't say that, because it isn't true. Most people from those places just get on with the business of living. Why would it be any more reasonable to expect that of an entire nation here?? Amarr has slavery - in an actually rather liberal form as a method of indoctrinating foreign cultures into their society. In this regard, Amarr has higher moral ground than Britain or America had, a couple centuries ago. I would also advise the OP read the history books of whatever country they are from. It will be hard to find any long-standing countries that AREN'T built on genocide and slavery. That doesn't make them exemplars of morality but it doesn't make them UNBRIDLED ANCIENT EEEEVIL.
Quote: It's like having a race of people that sustains itself by eating newborns. Then you complain to CCP why they make the race seem 'evil'.
Because it's a bit of an eyeroller to have the nation that's built on a variant of the old British Empire's "white man's burden" that actually has been shown to lift a finger to do good with it - pretty morally gray, but you can go either way - be "evil" compared to the country that kidnaps people by outward racial appearance and dumps them in refugee camps as a way of boosting their population? I mean, that seems pretty grey and edgy to me too.
Quote: The Minmatar Republic is like a rising third world country. Imagine space vikings that were enslaved for centuries suddenly get free to sail the seas of Europe again. You know blood is going to spill and whose blood they are out to get. Can you really blame them? I'd be angry too. Not only they are brash and rebelious, they have major wounded pride issues and seem to always want to compesate for that as well. It is basically a society that would do anything to for e-peen.
Yep. And i'm fine with that. But they are raiding and kidnapping people off the street to haul them off to their country based on things like the color of their skin. They're not the ultimate good guy here, you can go either way with them too.
Gallente is similar. They've got freedom and democracy, sure. They're also known for being hedonists and for having an absolute certainty that their way is the best for everyone else.
Quote:Revenge is a heroic trait after all. Revenge is a villainous trait just as often as a heroic one. The guy who goes trying to torture the penitent pensioner isn't really the guy with the white hat.Quote: For instance your character can be Amarr but it doesn't mean he has to support slavery. He realizes that its not something right to do but it's a reality he must live him in his society and its a part of his every day life. That's fine and dandy just respect the flavor rules.
Or accept that Amarr frees more slaves than Minmatar does, and that people are generally good and work within how their society works. There are a lot of things that are quite evil that a lot of real countries do. People either accept or defend them without raging that their country is evil to the core. |
Pieter Tuulinen
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
254
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 08:57:00 -
[39] - Quote
Exactly. It's not that the whole Cluster is evil and hopelessly lost.
It's just that anyone who matters seems to be. Including all of us. |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
754
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:08:00 -
[40] - Quote
Maire Gheren wrote: Amarr is religious, and some religious people are zealots. SOME. Not all. Some. Most people in countries which are equally well known for religious extremism on Earth today might take offense to being told that they are zealous extremists. If someone started saying that everyone from a certain country was a hyper-religious terrorist, you'd think they were being a bigot. Lunatics on shock radio cant even get away with saying THAT. They can't say that, because it isn't true. Most people from those places just get on with the business of living. Why would it be any more reasonable to expect that of an entire nation here??
Honestly I have no idea how old the Amarr Empire is but I can safely assume its several thousands of years old. When you pick up a history book you can tell that countries that operated similar to a theocracy were all in their infancy and as soon realized what they have done was wrong they completely remove religion from the equation. It's easy to say that the secular state was a big step to politics and governments around. Theocracy is synonym with backwardness in our world. You can look at present day theocratic states that shall remain unnamed as a good example. So we have a several thousands of year old State that still adheres to theocracy That's point number one. Let's move on to point number two.
Maire Gheren wrote:Amarr has slavery - in an actually rather liberal form as a method of indoctrinating foreign cultures into their society. In this regard, Amarr has higher moral ground than Britain or America had, a couple centuries ago. I would also advise the OP read the history books of whatever country they are from. It will be hard to find any long-standing countries that AREN'T built on genocide and slavery. That doesn't make them exemplars of morality but it doesn't make them UNBRIDLED ANCIENT EEEEVIL.
Sorry but slavery and the world 'liberal' don't mix no matter how hard you try to make it work. Yes I agree certain countries have skeletons like these in their closets and that their atrocities are not on their history books for their children to see. However for a society as old and supposedly as cultered as the Amarr empire should know better. The impact that their religion has on their society is staggering and crippling. It makes them primitive when they should be advanced. That's point number two, on to point three.
Maire Gheren wrote:Because it's a bit of an eyeroller to have the nation that's built on a variant of the old British Empire's "white man's burden" that actually has been shown to lift a finger to do good with it - pretty morally gray, but you can go either way - be "evil" compared to the country that kidnaps people by outward racial appearance and dumps them in refugee camps as a way of boosting their population? I mean, that seems pretty grey and edgy to me too.
I agree but like I said many posts ago I was not painting white knights here. I roleplay a Gallente character because the Federation is villanious to me albeit in a very modern and realistic way but this is not something I expect a westerner to understand, people of western countries would find the Gallente Federation heroic when skimming through the lore and that is the point of this thread.. If I won a ship for every time someone mistook me for an American or European because of my character I'd be a very happy person as I'd be able to unsub my trader/hauler account.
Reached quote limit. Saving this one for another. On the Minmatar:
I never said they were. The Minmatar are a personification of chaos, I'm suprised they haven't turned to anarchy yet. It would fit them like a glove.
Quote:Gallente is similar. They've got freedom and democracy, sure. They're also known for being hedonists and for having an absolute certainty that their way is the best for everyone else.
I was dying to get to this part. You see hedonism as much attractive it may sound is a rather primitive philosophy. This is part of what makes the Gallente space greeks and romans. This is a crippling flaw of Gallente society, just like theocracy and slavery is with Amarr society. Non hedonist Gallente would show impressive amount of intellect and common sense just like a progressive Amarr would. That's point number 4.
Quote:Or accept that Amarr frees more slaves than Minmatar does, and that people are generally good and work within how their society works. There are a lot of things that are quite evil that a lot of real countries do. People either accept or defend them without raging that their country is evil to the core.
Well the same applies here. Here I am making an attempt at defending democracy in an internet forum while democracy is a flawed system (however still better than the alternatives but that's a lesson for another day.) While there are people here trying to defend slavery.
I hope you understand now.
SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
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Pieter Tuulinen
Wiyrkomi Honor Guard
254
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Posted - 2013.01.22 10:17:00 -
[41] - Quote
I don't think anyone in here is defending Slavery. On the other hand some people are defending slavery from an Amarrian context.
From an Amarrian context it is either a useful economic tool or a sacred burden - depending upon the Amarrian in question. |
Mekhana
Spiritus Draconis Sicarius Draconis
756
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 10:20:00 -
[42] - Quote
I'm not saying they are defending slavery from a IRL prespective. I was just making a comparison.
People get worked over their chosen faction just about as much over the country they were born or live in. SP-DR is recruiting:http://spdr.enjin.com |
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
113
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Posted - 2013.01.22 14:35:00 -
[43] - Quote
Mostly, I get annoyed when flawed and edgy nation #1 is always portrayed as the evil villains, and flawed and edgy nation #2 is always portrayed as the heroic and dashing good guys. |
Istvaan Shogaatsu
Guiding Hand Social Club
840
|
Posted - 2013.01.22 15:40:00 -
[44] - Quote
Pieter Tuulinen wrote:Exactly. It's not that the whole Cluster is evil and hopelessly lost.
It's just that anyone who matters seems to be. Including all of us.
If you want to feel true fear, apply that thinking to the real world... |
Da Dom
Wii R
34
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Posted - 2013.01.23 07:02:00 -
[45] - Quote
Your not really talking about adding different toppings to a pre-made cookie, your making an argument about products that are mass produced tasting better than a homemade meal.
If fast food is your thing, then that's fine...
But I'm a cook. I can take the same ingredients and make several different meals from scratch. If your liberty is won by others then you are not free, you are merely protected. Your freedom is parasitic and you suck the honourable man dry. You who have enjoyed freedom, who have done nothing to earn it, your time has come. This time you will stand alone and fight for yourselves. Now you will pay for your freedom in the currency of honest toil and human blood |
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
2403
|
Posted - 2013.01.26 11:26:00 -
[46] - Quote
Sadly the only anarchist faction in New Eden would be the Rogue Drones.
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Kwan Enderas
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2013.02.02 04:02:00 -
[47] - Quote
How do Caldari have no positive aspects? Its pretty clear that they are a hardcore meritocracy, I wouldn't say its a dystopia at all. Hell, the whole deal with Tibus Heth is that the mega-corps stopped acting like real meritocracies and started screwing over all the little guys and letting the rich keep cushy jobs, regardless of competency.
Tbh I think the divide between Caldari and Gallente is really smaller than they try to make it sound. They're both competitive, supporting of mega-corps, but the Gallente have a legitimate central government which takes semi-socialist policies with government investment. Maybe they're a tad less nationalistic too. |
Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
126
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Posted - 2013.02.03 04:57:00 -
[48] - Quote
I really dont know a lot about Caldari, except that they often get the same treatment as Amarr does as far as being the eeevil dark and gloomy bad guys in comparison to the light, happy and heroic Gallente. Even though i'm sure they have all sorts of positive things to them. (I don't play Caldari.) Most of what I ever see about them, beyond the core Gal/Cal conflict (which in spite of looking like it SHOULD make Gallente the heavies, never seems to) is this vague air of "Comrade, in Caldari State, holoreel watches you..." |
Tavin Aikisen
Revenent Defence Corperation Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
133
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Posted - 2013.02.03 10:13:00 -
[49] - Quote
Sometimes people pick races or classes or whatever based on gameplay mechanics, rather than anything contextual. And it usually leads to lore conflict like this.
At the same time however, this is what makes capsuleers so special. In some ways they can go against the status quo of their chosen race. Might help to also encourage it a little too. Remember this. Trust your eyes, you will kill each other. Trust your veins, you can all go home. -Cold Wind |
Mund Richard
304
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Posted - 2013.02.03 13:47:00 -
[50] - Quote
Had a Caldari mission, went something like this... I was told how unfortunate it would be, if the corporation's Executive X would happen to have a most tragic accident. Although Executive Y might benefit from it. Totally unrelated, Executive Y is a 'friend' of my agent (also in the same corp). Even more totally unrelated, he suggests I take it easy after my last misson, and just go hang around in space, maybe a pleasure cruise? There ain't any interesting data-slate on his desk he points out as he leaves, adding that maps are overrated, and surely this has nothing to do with the conversation we did not just have.
Gallente have mission where you kill your own as well though, if for a bit different reasoning.
Maire Gheren wrote:I really dont know a lot about Caldari, except that they often get the same treatment as Amarr does as far as being the eeevil dark and gloomy bad guys in comparison to the light, happy and heroic Gallente. Some of the missions, including the one I mentioned above, don't show that face of the Federation at all, but the other one... Of course, if you skip reading the text, and focus on objectives, or just visit EVE-Survival, you miss out on it. Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
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Maire Gheren
Imperial Shipment Amarr Empire
127
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Posted - 2013.02.03 21:22:00 -
[51] - Quote
Tavin Aikisen wrote:Sometimes people pick races or classes or whatever based on gameplay mechanics, rather than anything contextual. And it usually leads to lore conflict like this. At the same time however, this is what makes capsuleers so special. In some ways they can go against the status quo of their chosen race. Might help to also encourage it a little too. You haven't read my position then? Because my objection isn't about wanting the Empire (and Caldari) to be good guys or different. My annoyance is that both lack positive interpretations (that aren't people trying to 'change the society' which is completely the antithesis of what I want), while the other two nations, which are JUST AS EVIL AND DARK, are portrayed as good and wholesome cultures. The wording turns it into this battle of good vs evil, when everything i've seen indicates that the intent is gray versus grey. |
Qvar Dar'Zanar
EVE University Ivy League
252
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Posted - 2013.02.03 22:27:00 -
[52] - Quote
Guys... The thread is about people complaining about their choosen factions OOC instead of in-char. |
Alain Colcer
Federal Defense Union Gallente Federation
56
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Posted - 2013.02.04 18:23:00 -
[53] - Quote
Mekhana wrote:I assume we all just have to live with the fact that all empires are lawful neutral.
Actually, i think the 4 main empires are mostly Lawful neutral.
Add the pirate factions are Neutral evil
nobody is actually "good" nor a parangon of ethical behavior.
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Mund Richard
304
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Posted - 2013.02.04 21:42:00 -
[54] - Quote
Alain Colcer wrote: Actually, i think the 4 main empires are mostly Lawful neutral. Add the pirate factions are Neutral evil nobody is actually "good" nor a parangon of ethical behavior. Why would they be?
Well, the Sisters try (to pretend?). Wish there was a Rogue Drone Faction Battleship... Infested Domi! Including all the wiggly bits to tend to your swarm, droneboat role bonus, and ofc with turrets. |
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