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Goldensaver
Marsuud And Sons Industries
126
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Posted - 2013.01.25 18:17:00 -
[241] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote:20 seconds of cap vs overheat ability. Personal choice. Shrug. To be honest, I forgot you could OH invulns for a moment there. You make a good point. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
303
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Posted - 2013.01.25 18:21:00 -
[242] - Quote
W0lf Crendraven wrote:Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Seeing as how people kite with Drakes, I'm pretty sure it is.
-Liang People don't kite with drakes. Using an MWD and moving at 1000m/s isn't kiting, MWD for positioning is entirely different. Drakes buffer tank. kiting involves using a range advantage to mitigate damage. Drakes sit at long range and throw missiles, then soak up fire using EHP and logistics in fleets. Most solo/small gang drakes fit webs and slow targets down to get better missile damage... that's not kiting. Infact sticking 2 nanofibres on it barely makes any difference, but more BCS's makes a huge difference. Faction 100MN fit's are another story. But that's always the case. You can kite just fine in a drake!
Battleships can outrun you. It doesn't kite. MWD /= kiting. Before scrams turned off MWD's, they where considered 100% required for almost every PVP ship. The MWD is to keep you in range a bit longer for chasing targets, or keep your out of range for a little longer while being approached. having 100kEHP and a sig radius the size of a moon is not a kiting fit. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2840
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Posted - 2013.01.25 18:51:00 -
[243] - Quote
Zarnak Wulf wrote: Similar gross EHP with LSE II, Adaptive Invuln II, and CDFE x 3 without a 10 million isk ACR?
I considered that, but discarded it because of the cap requirement. It's a good point for the spendthrift though.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2840
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Posted - 2013.01.25 19:11:00 -
[244] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: Battleships can outrun you. It doesn't kite. MWD /= kiting. Before scrams turned off MWD's, they where considered 100% required for almost every PVP ship. The MWD is to keep you in range a bit longer for chasing targets, or keep your out of range for a little longer while being approached. having 100kEHP and a sig radius the size of a moon is not a kiting fit.
You've spent too much time in null sec and are completely out of touch with how to fly a Drake. Or potentially even a kiting ship as a whole.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Shadowschild
Black Lance Fidelas Constans
28
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Posted - 2013.01.25 19:24:00 -
[245] - Quote
I completely disagree with the entire thread. The rupture got a boost with extra mid & is now a bit overpowered. You need to realize Minmatar have a rep for awesome sub-caps & ****** capitals.
And seriously who cares about kiting. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
303
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Posted - 2013.01.25 19:53:00 -
[246] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote: Battleships can outrun you. It doesn't kite. MWD /= kiting. Before scrams turned off MWD's, they where considered 100% required for almost every PVP ship. The MWD is to keep you in range a bit longer for chasing targets, or keep your out of range for a little longer while being approached. having 100kEHP and a sig radius the size of a moon is not a kiting fit.
You've spent too much time in null sec and are completely out of touch with how to fly a Drake. Or potentially even a kiting ship as a whole. -Liang
I flew the drake almost exlusively in rancer. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2841
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Posted - 2013.01.25 20:19:00 -
[247] - Quote
Ok, well maybe you never knew how then. People kite with Drakes quite successfully.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
60
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Posted - 2013.01.25 20:34:00 -
[248] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Maeltstome wrote: Battleships can outrun you. It doesn't kite. MWD /= kiting. Before scrams turned off MWD's, they where considered 100% required for almost every PVP ship. The MWD is to keep you in range a bit longer for chasing targets, or keep your out of range for a little longer while being approached. having 100kEHP and a sig radius the size of a moon is not a kiting fit.
You've spent too much time in null sec and are completely out of touch with how to fly a Drake. Or potentially even a kiting ship as a whole. -Liang I flew the drake almost exlusively in rancer.
See , that is your problem right there. If you think you cant kite in a drake, where have you been the last year(s)? The drake is (was) (tier3s are better now) the best kiting battlecruiser in the game, it still is pretty good at it.
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yer mammy
Derp Inc
33
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Posted - 2013.01.25 21:28:00 -
[249] - Quote
this thread sucks@! |
Dorian Tormak
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
75
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Posted - 2013.01.25 21:58:00 -
[250] - Quote
The Rifter has been forgotten about and cast aside because of all you whiners who used to be scared children clutching on the Rifter's ball-sack claiming it to be the best frigate ever and whining how nothing else could compare (meanwhile I was destroying 90% of Rifters in my Incursus every day since like... Aopocrypha hahaha)
You've brought this on yourselves, you've got the Slasher now, the Rifter will no doubt be looked at at some point
Also, nevermind what a 1,000 m/s Stabber w/ full tackle, dual neuts and 180s could be capable of doing in scram range - don't ever think outside the ball, kids! It's purely a kiter!
I never considered Minmatar very OP - maybe very very marginally over-powered, but it was nothing to write home about IMO, these days... they're about on par
NOT THAT ANYONE CARES WHAT I THNK FFS Dorian Trollmak. |
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
60
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Posted - 2013.01.25 22:53:00 -
[251] - Quote
If you want to do a ab, scram frig killer/sig tanker. You can do a pretty awesome dualprop thorax. |
Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
303
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Posted - 2013.01.25 23:32:00 -
[252] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:Ok, well maybe you never knew how then. People kite with Drakes quite successfully.
-Liang
Ed: I think it sad that we're discussing whether Drakes can kite in a thread about Minmatar ships. At any rate, the Drake kites fine and so does the Rupture. See the rather large explanation for why. If you disagree, let's talk about that instead of why you suck at finding fights and flying Drakes.
Fitting an MWD doesn't mean you are a kiting ship. The drake always has a huge amount of HP to fall-back on. it's not a true kiting ship. The reason people fly it is due to its projection and buffer ability. The MWD with a bit of agility/speed from nano's is a nice addition but secondary to the HP is has as a tank method.
True kiting ships use range/sig/speed to mitigate damage and have a buffer fit as a safe-guard against being insta-popped.
Or we can look at it from the perspective of: The drake is a true kiting ship.
In which case i want more HP on my stabber, vagabond, deimos and every T3 battlecruiser.
I know snaked/gang linked drakes with some nano's can reach a good speed, but it's not any higher than another ship in that same situation. And you know yourself what its sig radius with an MWD on is like to incoming weapons fire. It practically mitigates the speed element of it's mitgation. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2841
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Posted - 2013.01.25 23:33:00 -
[253] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:True kiting ships use...
No True Kiting Ship...
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
60
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Posted - 2013.01.25 23:42:00 -
[254] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote:Liang Nuren wrote:Ok, well maybe you never knew how then. People kite with Drakes quite successfully.
-Liang
Ed: I think it sad that we're discussing whether Drakes can kite in a thread about Minmatar ships. At any rate, the Drake kites fine and so does the Rupture. See the rather large explanation for why. If you disagree, let's talk about that instead of why you suck at finding fights and flying Drakes. Fitting an MWD doesn't mean you are a kiting ship. The drake always has a huge amount of HP to fall-back on. it's not a true kiting ship. The reason people fly it is due to its projection and buffer ability. The MWD with a bit of agility/speed from nano's is a nice addition but secondary to the HP is has as a tank method. True kiting ships use range/sig/speed to mitigate damage and have a buffer fit as a safe-guard against being insta-popped. Or we can look at it from the perspective of: The drake is a true kiting ship. In which case i want more HP on my stabber, vagabond, deimos and every T3 battlecruiser. I know snaked/gang linked drakes with some nano's can reach a good speed, but it's not any higher than another ship in that same situation. And you know yourself what its sig radius with an MWD on is like to incoming weapons fire. It practically mitigates the speed element of it's mitgation.
2km/s is more then enough to kite, especially as you have two 19km webs to keep fast tackle from shutting your mwd off. |
Taoist Dragon
Forced Penetration Hopeless Addiction
221
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Posted - 2013.01.25 23:43:00 -
[255] - Quote
Maeltstome wrote: True kiting ships use range/sig/speed to mitigate damage and have a buffer fit as a safe-guard against being insta-popped.
Isn't this the entire concept philosphy of the famous PODLA drake?
Hell I kite in scram range. Just cos you define kiting as zipping around @ multiple k's per second not everyone does.
if you are faster than your opponent or have the ability to dictate range through webs/scram/nuets w/e then you can kite. That is the Way, the Tao.
Balance is everything.
I'm NOT a Pirate! I'm a privateer! |
Aralieus
Shadowbane Syndicate
83
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Posted - 2013.01.25 23:55:00 -
[256] - Quote
Since were discussing Minnie ships does anyone have any feedback on the new cane, how does it perform now compared to before and what are it's ideal situations? Oderint Dum Metuant |
Dorian Tormak
Brutor Tribe Minmatar Republic
76
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Posted - 2013.01.26 06:15:00 -
[257] - Quote
Aralieus wrote:Since were discussing Minnie ships does anyone have any feedback on the new cane, how does it perform now compared to before .... Performance? Like sexual??
Aralieus wrote:.... and what are it's ideal situations? Sold at the marketplace
No but really it's the same ship as before; you just use a fitting rig and you might get less damage or damage projection. Other than that, yeah, Winmatar Dorian Trollmak. |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Heretic Nation
2842
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Posted - 2013.01.26 06:56:00 -
[258] - Quote
Dorian Tormak wrote:Aralieus wrote:Since were discussing Minnie ships does anyone have any feedback on the new cane, how does it perform now compared to before .... Performance? Like sexual?? Aralieus wrote:.... and what are it's ideal situations? Sold at the marketplace No but really it's the same ship as before; you just use a fitting rig and you might get less damage or damage projection. Other than that, yeah, Winmatar
Use a single named LSE to avoid the fitting mod. It's better that way.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Caitlyn Tufy
Bene Gesserit ChapterHouse Sanctuary Pact
149
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Posted - 2013.01.26 23:24:00 -
[259] - Quote
Taoist Dragon wrote:Maeltstome wrote: True kiting ships use range/sig/speed to mitigate damage and have a buffer fit as a safe-guard against being insta-popped.
Isn't this the entire concept philosphy of the famous PODLA Drake?
It is. Podla has nowhere near the tank of the standard brick or even Goon fleet drake, sacrificing it all for kiting power, while retaining web and point. |
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc Shadow Cartel
503
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Posted - 2013.01.27 03:22:00 -
[260] - Quote
Dorian Tormak wrote:Also, nevermind what a 1,000 m/s Stabber w/ full tackle, dual neuts and 180s could be capable of doing in scram range - don't ever think outside the ball, kids! It's purely a kiter!
That doesn't really work though...
Unless you're trying to fight BS's i guess..
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Liang Nuren
Heretic Army
2849
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Posted - 2013.01.27 04:39:00 -
[261] - Quote
It'd probably kill shield gank Thorax.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Maeltstome
Mentally Assured Destruction
308
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Posted - 2013.01.28 01:58:00 -
[262] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:It'd probably kill shield gank Thorax.
-Liang
A high-damage, close range, tracking bonused blaster ship against a neut AC ship. It's a question of time at that point, death of the stabber versus the thorax running dry.
Then again the stabber has weak cap also and will neut itself and possible loose tackle at some point.
Edit* And the medium drones i suppose punch hard given how low the stabbers EHP is. |
Shenra Twrin
Republic Military School Minmatar Republic
24
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Posted - 2013.01.28 03:09:00 -
[263] - Quote
Flying Loki in PVP all day... no problems here |
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
61
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Posted - 2013.01.28 03:11:00 -
[264] - Quote
You can just fit shield thorax with a scram tho! Best imo is the dualprop shield throrax, due to dualprop (and beeing faster with an ab then some afs) and scram you can pretty much guarante range control vs mwd/scram frigs and you have a good chance vs ab frig, so you eat frigs. Thanks to dual te in the lows (+ dc and magstabs) you have the same range as a kiting thorax so if a kiting frig shows up you have a good chance at killing it before it runs away. And to kill kiting cruisers you heat your mwd, catch them, tun on the ab and orbit at 500 with antimatter. |
Warde Guildencrantz
TunDraGon
652
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Posted - 2013.02.21 19:25:00 -
[265] - Quote
i agree that the rifter needs another look over because it's totally outclassed by the slasher now. I may also agree that looking over the stabber is a good idea.
However the other boats? no. They are just balanced before compared to their clear betterness of previous times. Rupture used to be the only good pvp T1 cruiser, remember? Now just because the other 3 are good too doesn't mean minmatar got nerfed.
Hurricane with 2 neuts was ridiculous. I think they went a bit overboard on nerfing its powergrid in its current iteration, but they were right to remove a high slot. Hopefully they buff up the PG to compensate.
Also, the cyclone is friggin awesome now, don't know what you are thinking but its essentially the same ship but with HAMs instead of autos. I don't see the problem with that. It was already crazy good with autos and neuts, should be even better now that it has 5 lows for speed mods. |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
606
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Posted - 2013.02.21 20:19:00 -
[266] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:I'm pretty sure that Thorax will lose on EHP alone.
-Liang
Indeed. Not the best option, but the "gank with tank" and gtfo ability without implants, booster or OGB.
This little crap here does 762DPS or 853DPS with heat Hammers II/Neurons+void - 2218m/s and 3163 with heat for 18K EHP. Throw in some implants, OGB, boosters and you get over 22K EHP higher velocity/agility and yes, I think this thing is deadly with OGB specially if you see more than one on grid.
[Thorax, Munster] Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Magnetic Field Stabilizer II Nanofiber Internal Structure II Power Diagnostic System II
Experimental 10MN Microwarpdrive I Large Shield Extender II Medium F-S9 Regolith Shield Induction Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M Heavy Neutron Blaster II, Void M
Medium Anti-EM Screen Reinforcer I Medium Ancillary Current Router I Medium Hybrid Burst Aerator I
Hammerhead II x5
*removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
606
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Posted - 2013.02.21 20:23:00 -
[267] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:It'd probably kill shield gank Thorax.
-Liang
Depending how fight starts and what you're in. Ruppy would have very little chance against this, shield rax, specially with such low dps (400'ish in optimal).
Tried to do some stuff with Ruppy on eft and with my alt in game, it's just something you do'nt want to fit or just with arties/all dps mods for pure gate gank in numbers because of alpha
Fit this ruppy is really not easy, not saying it's impossible but this ship could use of some love like another turret hard point, more fittings and bit of cpu. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3150
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Posted - 2013.02.21 20:35:00 -
[268] - Quote
The Thorax you presented is basically the one that the conversation was about. It would die when trying to brawl down a Rupture. First, it would die because it has very low EHP. Second, it would die because it would run out of capacitor before killing the Rupture.
And finally: if you want to throw OGB links in then we might as well start talking about the Rupture being supported by a Legion... in which case the problem is so so so so much more true.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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Sergeant Acht Scultz
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
606
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Posted - 2013.02.21 20:39:00 -
[269] - Quote
Liang Nuren wrote:The Thorax you presented is basically the one that the conversation was about. It would die when trying to brawl down a Rupture. First, it would die because it has very low EHP. Second, it would die because it would run out of capacitor before killing the Rupture.
And finally: if you want to throw OGB links in then we might as well start talking about the Rupture being supported by a Legion... in which case the problem is so so so so much more true.
-Liang
Indeed, all scenarios are possible and that rax fit is more about a gankalol fit. imho ruppy could use a bit of love for his dps still. *removed inappropriate ASCII art signature* - CCP Eterne |
Liang Nuren
Heretic Army Atrocitas
3150
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Posted - 2013.02.21 20:44:00 -
[270] - Quote
I don't think the evidence provided really supports that conclusion. Certainly the situation is not nearly as dire as everyone has claimed in this thread. In the end, I'm sure the Rupture will be buffed and nerfed and buffed and nerfed and buffed and nerfed some more. Such is life in a MMO with an active game design team.
-Liang Normally on 5:00 -> 9-10:00 Eve (Aus TZ?) Blog: http://liangnuren.wordpress.com PVP Videos: http://www.youtube.com/user/LiangNuren/videos Twitter: http://twitter.com/LiangNuren
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