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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Vodaqlex
Twa Ingin Pehs
0
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Posted - 2012.02.03 02:29:00 -
[571] - Quote
I love Dec Shield Alliance. I love being able to use game mechanic legal exploits to exploit a game mechanic legal exploit. |
Asuri Kinnes
Adhocracy Incorporated Adhocracy
165
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Posted - 2012.02.05 16:55:00 -
[572] - Quote
ShipToaster wrote:CCP need to get wardecs fixed so I can wardec an alliance called Ivy League that has eight hundred and twenty two players over one year old.; I have a legitimate in game grievance that can only end with their total destruction. How the **** any corp with over eight hundred players over a year old is considered a noob corp or a noob training corp escapes me but leaving that aside for the moment by their in game actions have eve university offended me and. like every other group in EVE, I should have the same mechanics available to me to chastise them. A) Bump B) Bolded bit will never happen C) They train n00bs - who the **** are you to tell them they can't have x,y,z number of characters over any age? What's the cut-off? Who decides? D) Post with your main edit to add: "Quick! Someone call the whaaaa-mbulance!"
Wormholes: The *NEW* end game of Eve - Online: No Local. No Lag. No Blues (No Intell Channesl). No Blobs.
NEW FEATURE: NO INCARNA! |
Rellik B00n
Lethal Death Squad
123
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Posted - 2012.02.05 17:26:00 -
[573] - Quote
fight the fight guys!
my war dec solution |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1370
|
Posted - 2012.02.05 20:29:00 -
[574] - Quote
Asuri Kinnes wrote: C) They train n00bs - who the **** are you to tell them they can't have x,y,z number of characters over any age? What's the cut-off? Who decides?
If they're asking for and receiving special protections on the basis of their claim that their purpose is to train new players, then a high percentage of relatively old characters (who are not actively teaching) would tend to work against that claim. In addition asking for special protections and receiving special protections would seem to me to work against their stated mission of training new players in all aspects of EvE; a game where nobody's special and nobody's safe.
If they weren't asking for nor receiving special protections, then the decision would be moot, and the community would decide if they wanted to punish those who attacked E-Uni. Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes. |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution
136
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Posted - 2012.02.06 02:18:00 -
[575] - Quote
RubyPorto wrote:Asuri Kinnes wrote: C) They train n00bs - who the **** are you to tell them they can't have x,y,z number of characters over any age? What's the cut-off? Who decides?
If they're asking for and receiving special protections on the basis of their claim that their purpose is to train new players, then a high percentage of relatively old characters (who are not actively teaching) would tend to work against that claim. In addition asking for special protections and receiving special protections would seem to me to work against their stated mission of training new players in all aspects of EvE; a game where nobody's special and nobody's safe. If they weren't asking for nor receiving special protections, then the decision would be moot, and the community would decide if they wanted to punish those who attacked E-Uni. This man does make a valid point...
+1 Internets for posting a clear and concise arguement
Fix Faction Warfare CCP!!! |
ShipToaster
139
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Posted - 2012.02.11 01:21:00 -
[576] - Quote
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=67445 another wardec suggestion posted here. Why wont this ******* signature die?
It wont clear. Another bug. How many bugs are in this ******* forum? |
Gogela
Freeport Exploration Loosely Affiliated Pirates Alliance
337
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Posted - 2012.02.11 02:34:00 -
[577] - Quote
Rellik B00n wrote:fight the fight guys!
I'm with this guy ^
I don't have much to offer in the way of words other than to saydec shielding shouldn't be an exploit... it shouldn't even be POSSIBLE to shield a dec.
I'll even write the code for you:
if="WardecsBroken" than="fixIt" else="DeploySparklePonys"
Simple.
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Dave Day
Universal Freelance
25
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Posted - 2012.02.24 11:39:00 -
[578] - Quote
Is it true that a corp that drops from an alliance can't be wardecced until after the following downtime? |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
311
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Posted - 2012.02.24 12:25:00 -
[579] - Quote
Gogela wrote:Rellik B00n wrote:fight the fight guys!
I'm with this guy ^ I don't have much to offer in the way of words other than to saydec shielding shouldn't be an exploit... it shouldn't even be POSSIBLE to shield a dec. I'll even write the code for you: if="WardecsBroken" than="fixIt" else="DeploySparklePonys" Simple.
Here's the catch: you either wardec someone who wants to fight or you don't.
The second case is massively dominant in hi sec.
2 reasons why (hope to say it right, I came back in game not long ago):
1) The attacker will do all sort of sh!t docking games, neutral reppers and all the usual boring crap. This is not fun, even if the target corp wanted to actually fight back. Because if they get out playing a la EvE PvP (i.e. enough force to overhelm the attacker) that guy will just dock.
I mean, the cheesy is not just on the decced corp but also on the attacker.
Remove neutral repping and similar first, then somebody will like to get out and fight back.
2) The attacked corp that does not want to fight back, is picked exactly because they won't fight back.
This means their members are one or more of:
- newbs - industry only - totally risk averse.
In none of these cases, you'll teach them anything about EvE.
On paper, newbs would "learn the glory of PvP", "learn how EvE works", "how EvE is harsh". Industrialists on paper would "learn to fight back", "hire PvPers" and similar. Totally risk averse even on paper won't learn anything.
Not on paper, this happens:
- Newbs just think the game is sh!t. It's not 2003 nor 2005 any more, the "homo MMO-ensis" of 2012 is a bast4rd breed between Hello Kitty Online and WoW. Instant gratification else quit.
Now, CCP needs money, they need newbs FIRST to invest some months and thus feel a loss if they rage quit, THEN you could impose anti-WoW hardship on them.
- Industrialists have wrong stats, wrong skills to fight back. They won't get effective mercs to sit at their 10 POSes for weeks, most just refuse to babysit that crap. Therefore they will be forced in a station for weeks and possibly lose all the POSes. No, they won't learn how to fly a Rifter just to come out and get rolled over by someone who will play docking games anyway.
- Totally risk averse people will not leave station as well, probably they'll just go NPC corp.
So, in which case wardeccing those top preferred unwilling targets is going to change anything for the game?
In every case, they can just all stay docked forever.
Wardecs in hi sec can't be effective and enforced, dec shield or not. Only mutual wardecs work as a effective mechanism. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
Katarina Reid
Jump.Jump.Jump.
129
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 12:57:00 -
[580] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:Gogela wrote:Rellik B00n wrote:fight the fight guys!
I'm with this guy ^ I don't have much to offer in the way of words other than to saydec shielding shouldn't be an exploit... it shouldn't even be POSSIBLE to shield a dec. I'll even write the code for you: if="WardecsBroken" than="fixIt" else="DeploySparklePonys" Simple. Here's the catch: you either wardec someone who wants to fight or you don't. The second case is massively dominant in hi sec. 2 reasons why (hope to say it right, I came back in game not long ago): 1) The attacker will do all sort of sh!t docking games, neutral reppers and all the usual boring crap. This is not fun, even if the target corp wanted to actually fight back. Because if they get out playing a la EvE PvP (i.e. enough force to overhelm the attacker) that guy will just dock. I mean, the cheesy is not just on the decced corp but also on the attacker. Remove neutral repping and similar first, then somebody will like to get out and fight back. 2) The attacked corp that does not want to fight back, is picked exactly because they won't fight back. This means their members are one or more of: - newbs - industry only - totally risk averse. In none of these cases, you'll teach them anything about EvE. On paper, newbs would "learn the glory of PvP", "learn how EvE works", "how EvE is harsh". Industrialists on paper would "learn to fight back", "hire PvPers" and similar. Totally risk averse even on paper won't learn anything. Not on paper, this happens: - Newbs just think the game is sh!t. It's not 2003 nor 2005 any more, the "homo MMO-ensis" of 2012 is a bast4rd breed between Hello Kitty Online and WoW. Instant gratification else quit. Now, CCP needs money, they need newbs FIRST to invest some months and thus feel a loss if they rage quit, THEN you could impose anti-WoW hardship on them. - Industrialists have wrong stats, wrong skills to fight back. They won't get effective mercs to sit at their 10 POSes for weeks, most just refuse to babysit that crap. Therefore they will be forced in a station for weeks and possibly lose all the POSes. No, they won't learn how to fly a Rifter just to come out and get rolled over by someone who will play docking games anyway. - Totally risk averse people will not leave station as well, probably they'll just go NPC corp. So, in which case wardeccing those top preferred unwilling targets is going to change anything for the game? In every case, they can just all stay docked forever. Wardecs in hi sec can't be effective and enforced, dec shield or not. Only mutual wardecs work as a effective mechanism.
Dont want to pvp stay in npc corp. You want to have a corp and have corp assets be prepard to defend them. The only valid way to dodge a dec should be hide in npc corp. |
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Raneru
Euphoria Released 0ccupational Hazzard
30
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Posted - 2012.02.24 13:57:00 -
[581] - Quote
Sounds like a rule being changed due to changes/additions/whatever to wardecs in the upcoming expansion.
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Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
311
|
Posted - 2012.02.24 15:15:00 -
[582] - Quote
Katarina Reid wrote:Dont want to pvp stay in npc corp. You want to have a corp and have corp assets be prepard to defend them. The only valid way to dodge a dec should be hide in npc corp.
How it is now works better than your solution.
If you make people "hide in npc corp" they will forever be excluded from wardecs (i.e. no way to fight them).
If you make them do like now, they are subject to at least 1 day of wardec, which enables you both to kill them and have a shot to their assets.
If they use dec shield you have them subject to wardec for 2+ days.
Once again, it's "on paper" vs what happens for real. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
ShipToaster
149
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Posted - 2012.02.24 17:13:00 -
[583] - Quote
Saw the first WoW player saying gb2eve today. Sad times. Confused about who to vote for in the upcoming CSM election?
This will sort it out! https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=68476 |
RubyPorto
Profoundly Disturbed RED.Legion
1446
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Posted - 2012.02.26 02:32:00 -
[584] - Quote
Raneru wrote:Sounds like a rule being changed due to changes/additions/whatever to wardecs in the upcoming expansion.
Look again at the date of the OP. This was changed back in October (so the upcoming expansion at the time of the announcement would have been Crucible), and it was changed due to either: 1) E-UNI's secret use of techniques that had never been publicly announced as legal, 2) Customer Service decided that they no longer had the manpower to enforce the rules, or 3) Customer Service (not a game development department) decided that the game was best served by reversing longstanding exploit rulings.
I have my own suspicions on which is most likely, but none are good reasons. Single-Shard, Player Driven Sandbox.
5 words. That's what makes it special in my eyes. |
Vangococo
Frozen Enterprises
0
|
Posted - 2012.03.15 23:21:00 -
[585] - Quote
So CCP will ignore all request to perma ban Bot miners / Bot Ratters in nullsec. Bot Miners in Highsec. And when corps tired of the Bots in highsec wardeck a Bot miner. the Bot miner corp can use this (Previously noted Exploit punishiable by Bans). And go back to Bot mining with toons ruin the Game economy. and make it Harder for actual Person at the Keyboards to support their Accounts.
Am i getting this all right.. Okay so where do i get one of those free ( obviously okay to use in 3-4 years like everyother exploit in game) Bot programs so when they legalize or say hey its okay bro you can use the bot. Mineing takes no real skills and you can just log on in ( enter random Asteroid belt of choice) and have the bot collect mins for 23 hours a day.
Everything Old is new Again? Exploits ignored by the devs for years can finally be fixed by saying we just give up cause we dont have the ability to fix the Darn Problem.. |
Gibbo3771
AQUILA INC 0ccupational Hazzard
66
|
Posted - 2012.03.16 10:28:00 -
[586] - Quote
Well this is ******* stupid....
We are at war with this corporation atm, ****** little 7 man corp that just camps jita 4-4 all day.
The CEO has several other 1 man corps with alts that are at war with other big alliances/corps.
He flies around in one corp to find WT's but if he finds another WT from another corp he just changes corps in system/ahead of route and waits for them with his 2-3 remote sensor boosting bassy's/guardians.
Are you basically saying....this is allowed? Everytime you dont like my comments/posts the terrorists win and your a disgrace to your country. |
Vaerah Vahrokha
Vahrokh Consulting
391
|
Posted - 2012.03.16 10:32:00 -
[587] - Quote
Gibbo3771 wrote:Well this is ******* stupid....
We are at war with this corporation atm, ****** little 7 man corp that just camps jita 4-4 all day.
The CEO has several other 1 man corps with alts that are at war with other big alliances/corps.
He flies around in one corp to find WT's but if he finds another WT from another corp he just changes corps in system/ahead of route and waits for them with his 2-3 remote sensor boosting bassy's/guardians.
Are you basically saying....this is allowed?
This is what happens when you implement hi sec wardecs.
They should just have forbidden all kinds of wardecs or made everyone be able to shoot everyone everywhere. The latter would find little support off hi seccers though. Auditing | Collateral holding and insurance | Consulting | PLEX for Good Charity
Twitter channel |
gfldex
380
|
Posted - 2012.03.16 12:20:00 -
[588] - Quote
Gibbo3771 wrote:Are you basically saying....this is allowed?
As long as they don't change corp when war targets are already in system it's fine.
The game has a tutorial that gives you a mining laser and a railgun and tells you to go shoot rocks and red crosses. It teaches you nothing else. It's been that way for 8 years, so are you really surprised that there are people who aren't aware that this is a pvp game? --Jafit McJafitson |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1089
|
Posted - 2012.03.16 13:59:00 -
[589] - Quote
Gibbo3771 wrote:Well this is ******* stupid....
We are at war with this corporation atm, ****** little 7 man corp that just camps jita 4-4 all day.
The CEO has several other 1 man corps with alts that are at war with other big alliances/corps.
He flies around in one corp to find WT's but if he finds another WT from another corp he just changes corps in system/ahead of route and waits for them with his 2-3 remote sensor boosting bassy's/guardians.
Are you basically saying....this is allowed?
Yes, it is. Unfortunately, CCP has created an environment where it's very hard for people to get productive wars in highsec. People are resorting to measures like that in order to be able to get fights. Wardecs are supposed to enable you to engage a target and accomplish a goal: resource denial, kills, POS take-downs, whatever. Now, they're about to simply shrug off wardecs and live in utter safety unless you can muster enough firepower and sec status to run suicide ganks on your targets.
I'm not condoning his camping of 4-4 or hiding behind neutral reps; these are things I won't do. In fact, I've long advocated for changes that would add a lot more risk to those activities. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1089
|
Posted - 2012.03.16 14:00:00 -
[590] - Quote
gfldex wrote:Gibbo3771 wrote:Are you basically saying....this is allowed? As long as they don't change corp when war targets are already in system it's fine. Correction: they can change corp with WTs in system, but they have to be docked when they do it. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
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FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1089
|
Posted - 2012.03.16 14:02:00 -
[591] - Quote
Vaerah Vahrokha wrote:This is what happens when you implement hi sec wardecs.
They should just have forbidden all kinds of wardecs or made everyone be able to shoot everyone everywhere. The latter would find little support off hi seccers though. No, they need to make wardecs work in a sensible way rather than what has existed before. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
Tobiaz
Spacerats
16
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Posted - 2012.03.16 14:19:00 -
[592] - Quote
When I read about this in another thread I just couldn't believe it. And the Eve-U dec shield described in this thread is outdated. The new and improved version is where you just join a specialized alliance, transferring your wardec onto them, and they you get booted out again, leaving the wardec behind. This pretty much breaks the entire system of wardeccing.
When timed correctly this also makes it completely impossible to remove any pos in high-sec, because the owner can just keep hopping between the reinforced timer and the wardec timer.
HOW IS THIS NOT AN EXPLOIT FFS?! Is the whole GM department staffed by clueless carebears that whenever they got wardecced as a player they just go play WoW for a month instead?
Wardecs can be nasty and vicious, especially against newie corps. But a corp that can't take a little speedbump, has no reason to exist in the first place. Any corp worth their office-rent welcomes a wardec, because it's a great opportunity to tighten the bonds between the members and test their mettle. Wardecs are a VITAL in order to keep Empire healthy.
I know there will be an overhaul in the next content pacht, but this doesn't bode well... too many devs that barely play the game and a GM-staff with a carebear attitude, sidestepping blatant exploits like this.
CSM7 should really take a good look at this. [img]http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/corp/Tobiaz/sig_complaints.gif[/img]
This needs fixin' |
FloppieTheBanjoClown
The Skunkworks
1095
|
Posted - 2012.03.16 15:25:00 -
[593] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:CSM7 should really take a good look at this.
I think there's a post by a GM somewhere in this thread that indicates that the purpose of this was to identify all the issues with the wardec system by allowing people to fully abuse it. The implication I get from that is that they intend to fix those issues.
I think, though, that this has gone on long enough and the rules need to be reinstated until Inferno is released this summer. It's time to put an end to CCP's war on piracy. Fight your own battles and stop asking CCP to do it for you. |
IHaveCandyGetInTheVan69
Angry Mustellid Iron Oxide.
99
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Posted - 2012.03.16 16:21:00 -
[594] - Quote
How long until the PVP flag? |
Alekseyev Karrde
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
409
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Posted - 2012.03.17 04:34:00 -
[595] - Quote
Tobiaz wrote:CSM7 should really take a good look at this. If I'm elected, you can be assured they will take a long hard look at the dec system so CCP gets it right this time. www.noirmercs.com Now Recruiting #VoteAlek for CSM7-áhttps://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=67574&find=unread |
Toshiroma McDiesel
Lupus Draconis Dragehund
16
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Posted - 2012.03.17 05:18:00 -
[596] - Quote
Re-Wardec them, it isn't like it's a serious amount of money, I more than that on a single mining cycle. Can we please stop necroing this useless thread, it was a tear fest from the start, and it still is. HTFU and re dec them after they leave their shield. If you can't afford that, you probably should be asking yourself if you can really afford to dec in the first place.
(and for those that ask, I started EVE just over 1 year ago, in that time, my alliance spent 16 weeks out of 52 under War Dec, which means this toon stayed docked up, I even started a PVP toon to help during those times, but during the last one, which lasted 3 weeks, the dec'ers docked up anytime we had more than 3 people online)
Not sure I should really complain too much, my Hulk runs on tears and threads like this help keep the tank full The Valdspar is Holy, it must be allowed to float free. Free of lesser rocks that try to clutter it's Holy Path though the Heavens. |
Terminal Insanity
Convex Enterprises Unprovoked Aggression
284
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Posted - 2012.03.17 05:25:00 -
[597] - Quote
necro'ing this thread was a great idea. This is a ******** decision and should be reversed.
Avoiding wardecs is an exploit directly aimed at avoiding intended game mechanics.
Whats the point of a wardec if corps can just ***** out of them without any risk? Why did CCP even implement wardecs in the first place? So that corporations can fight eachother with consent? Then why did you provide the 'declare mutual' option as an OPTION.
Avoiding wardecs is an exploit, thats all there is to it. |
Chron Aldazaar
Praetorian Angels Fallen Angels.
0
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Posted - 2012.03.17 12:26:00 -
[598] - Quote
The fact remains it looks like this was done to keep the miners and carebears happy. I mean wasn't it the same with the learning system? People were complaining that they didn't want to train those skills and "Waste" time to earn up their crap. It's just a fact that when the masses who don't do what the rest of us do complain, we suffer.
I agree with Terminal, it's an exploit to avoid an intended game mechanic. In my opinion, it should be dealt with, what's the point of even implementing a War Dec system if the people who get decked are gonna run off and hide behind someone? It's a pain in the hind quarters having to deal with that garbage. It feels like the PvPers who do High Sec wars are getting the shaft here. |
Valencia Mariana
Fates Unwritten Consortium
3
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Posted - 2012.03.17 15:08:00 -
[599] - Quote
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Looks like a field repair to me.
What's the ratio of high-sec wardecs for the goal of griefing noob corps to wealthy high-sec corps escaping challenges to their position?
The general idea of the war declaration is to pay off CONCORD to get the rights to blow up some other organizations assets for what purpose? I suspect the intended idea was leverage. If you want to mine all the ore and ice, but someone who is better at it is doing it in the same space you want to do it, you kill them.
Fair enough. That's Eve.
But what is the statistic of high-sec corps being war decced actually being such organizations in a dominating position?
How many are small noob corps simply getting decced so some ass-hats who can't handle low-sec or afford 0.0 rent can pad their killboards?
This reminds me of the hunting rules in the USA. Most of these rules seem dumb and redundant, like not being able to use a high-capacity magazine - but the rules exist because: "Some moron already did something dumb so now there's a rule for it".
So while the concept of the war dec is sound based on the original reason, the USE of the war dec as a utility for griefers has pretty much ruined it for everybody.
So y'all abused the toy and fought over it, now mommie's taking it away.
+1
Wars should be to fight over resources not so someone whom usually logs in once a week can hunt guys. Usually as soon as you send some pvp guys to engage they dock up and wait for the pvp guys to get bored then hunt mission runners and miners again.
Result is no fighting unless they have the opportunity to hint a miner./mission runner. To prevent giving them the opportunity you pretty much have to tell everyone whom is not pvp ready to log off and tell everyone else who is playing to stop what they are doing just in-case he undocks. The result is stagnation of activity due to not being able to pve and not being able to pvp (they don't engage unless your doing pve).
Last 3 war dec we got have all been like this. It just makes the game boring. BTW I am I am pro-pvp but the system in EVE is terrible. |
Tanya Powers
Science and Trade Institute Caldari State
884
|
Posted - 2012.03.17 15:48:00 -
[600] - Quote
Valencia Mariana wrote:Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:Looks like a field repair to me
What's the ratio of high-sec wardecs for the goal of griefing noob corps to wealthy high-sec corps escaping challenges to their position
The general idea of the war declaration is to pay off CONCORD to get the rights to blow up some other organizations assets for what purpose? I suspect the intended idea was leverage. If you want to mine all the ore and ice, but someone who is better at it is doing it in the same space you want to do it, you kill them.
Fair enough. That's Eve
But what is the statistic of high-sec corps being war decced actually being such organizations in a dominating position
How many are small noob corps simply getting decced so some ass-hats who can't handle low-sec or afford 0.0 rent can pad their killboards
This reminds me of the hunting rules in the USA. Most of these rules seem dumb and redundant, like not being able to use a high-capacity magazine - but the rules exist because: "Some moron already did something dumb so now there's a rule for it"
So while the concept of the war dec is sound based on the original reason, the USE of the war dec as a utility for griefers has pretty much ruined it for everybody.
So y'all abused the toy and fought over it, now mommie's taking it away
+ Wars should be to fight over resources not so someone whom usually logs in once a week can hunt guys. Usually as soon as you send some pvp guys to engage they dock up and wait for the pvp guys to get bored then hunt mission runners and miners again. Result is no fighting unless they have the opportunity to hint a miner./mission runner. To prevent giving them the opportunity you pretty much have to tell everyone whom is not pvp ready to log off and tell everyone else who is playing to stop what they are doing just in-case he undocks. The result is stagnation of activity due to not being able to pve and not being able to pvp (they don't engage unless your doing pve) Last 3 war dec we got have all been like this. It just makes the game boring. BTW I am I am pro-pvp but the system in EVE is terrible.
HIGH SEC is the paradise of all risk averse and self proclaimed pvp players who are only and just good at exploit each and every game mechanic, including use of external progs while in game to get all profit and take 0 risk or minimum possible
What you just described is the result of hilarious mechanics making high sec the paradise for "Elite PVP" players that in fact are the risk averse ones
Yet CCP does nothing about this but "dec shield" a valid mechanic witch is peanuts for real high sec industrials haulers miners small indy corps that could actually retain more new players without those "elite pvp" parasites This dec shield stuff profits, once again, to those exploiting the mechanic failures as usual. |
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