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Author |
Thread Statistics | Show CCP posts - 4 post(s) |
Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
111
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Posted - 2011.10.15 17:54:00 -
[181] - Quote
rufeno wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote:rufeno wrote:Irval Penken wrote:rufeno wrote:the 19 corps dec-shield is pretty easy, and cost around 200m. per week. it just take time...
3-4 people can do it in 2h, splited over 2-3 days..
even small alliance can do that. it only requires 1 paid character slot. (trial account can declare wars..) Could you share this "pretty easy" way? I would still consider it broken, but the knowledge also better should be available to everybody (and I am damn curious, too :-) 3 corps wardec another one. cost: 1.6m x 3 +2+4+6m. (you can use a trial account to form those 3 attacking corp) the wardecced corp join in the alliance. boom! 3 wars on the alliance, next war on the alliance cost 200m. Based on what you describe, EVE University would have to be a stand-alone corporation for this to work, and I don't believe that they are leaving Ivy League when their 19 corp decshield is applied. no, you don't get it. the decced corp join in the alliance where Eve-U (or the corp you want to protect) is already in. I get it dude. I know how to keep the costs down for a corporation that isn't in an alliance.
The question is ... how is the Ivy League keeping their costs down. As their CEO has already stated, they are paying nowhere near 72B ISK per month to keep their nineteen corporation decshield up and running. They aren't bouncing EVE University in and out of Ivy League to do this. It's, as I understand it, more along the lines of toggling the mutual/non-mutual aspect of the wardecs, keeps Ivy League's costs down while ensuring a wardeccer pays maximum cost to wardec Ivy League.
The War-Free University-á- http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/2011/10/war-free-university.html |
rufeno
Imajica Investments Blue Sky Consortium
11
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Posted - 2011.10.15 17:59:00 -
[182] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote: I get it dude. I know how to keep the costs down for a corporation that isn't in an alliance.
The question is ... how is the Ivy League keeping their costs down. As their CEO has already stated, they are paying nowhere near 72B ISK per month to keep their nineteen corporation decshield up and running. They aren't bouncing EVE University in and out of Ivy League to do this. It's, as I understand it, more along the lines of toggling the mutual/non-mutual aspect of the wardec/decshields, keeps Ivy League's costs down while ensuring a wardeccer pays maximum cost to wardec Ivy League.
you create all the corp and wardec before they join into the alliance. when those are done, they just create another set of corp and wardec.
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Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
111
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Posted - 2011.10.15 18:14:00 -
[183] - Quote
rufeno wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote: I get it dude. I know how to keep the costs down for a corporation that isn't in an alliance.
The question is ... how is the Ivy League keeping their costs down. As their CEO has already stated, they are paying nowhere near 72B ISK per month to keep their nineteen corporation decshield up and running. They aren't bouncing EVE University in and out of Ivy League to do this. It's, as I understand it, more along the lines of toggling the mutual/non-mutual aspect of the wardec/decshields, keeps Ivy League's costs down while ensuring a wardeccer pays maximum cost to wardec Ivy League.
you create all the corp and wardec before they join into the alliance. when those are done, they just create another set of corp and wardec. I get what you're saying now. The decshield corps don't wardec Ivy League ... they all wardec an allianceless Corp A ... so 18 corps wardec Corp A, then Corp A joins Ivy League. So this is one reasonably effective method.
Strangely, though, there are no new members in Ivy League. It's the same four members, the youngest of which is 107 days old.
Which still leads me to believe they are doing something completely different.
The War-Free University-á- http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/2011/10/war-free-university.html |
Gabriel Karade
Noir. Noir. Mercenary Group
1
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Posted - 2011.10.15 21:53:00 -
[184] - Quote
Arron Samar wrote:On a more serious note....
I'm not sure why people are bitching and moaning so much as the whole WD mechanics are stupid. Living in empire high sec space you have the protection of CONCORD and the empire you are residing in. A griefer corp can then pay x amount to circumnavigate the rules and this is seen as being OK while any attempt by the aggressed parties to avoid it is an exploit..... lol wut?
If you can bribe concord why can't I bribe them more to ignore you and protect me?
But that's the whole point of capsuler corporations though - you are a semi-sovereign entity and aren't part of the empire you reside in, nor party to the same protection as an Empire citizen (NPC corporation).
(Otherwise why would you be allowed to deploy starbases).
War-Machine |
rufeno
Imajica Investments Blue Sky Consortium
11
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Posted - 2011.10.15 23:14:00 -
[185] - Quote
Poetic Stanziel wrote:rufeno wrote:Poetic Stanziel wrote: I get it dude. I know how to keep the costs down for a corporation that isn't in an alliance.
The question is ... how is the Ivy League keeping their costs down. As their CEO has already stated, they are paying nowhere near 72B ISK per month to keep their nineteen corporation decshield up and running. They aren't bouncing EVE University in and out of Ivy League to do this. It's, as I understand it, more along the lines of toggling the mutual/non-mutual aspect of the wardec/decshields, keeps Ivy League's costs down while ensuring a wardeccer pays maximum cost to wardec Ivy League.
you create all the corp and wardec before they join into the alliance. when those are done, they just create another set of corp and wardec. I get what you're saying now. The decshield corps don't wardec Ivy League ... they all wardec an allianceless Corp A ... so 18 corps wardec Corp A, then Corp A joins Ivy League. So this is one reasonably effective method. Strangely, though, there are no new members in Ivy League. It's the same four members, the youngest of which is 107 days old. Which still leads me to believe they are doing something completely different.
well, once the war is active on the alliance, there's no reason for the corp to stay in.
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Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
114
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Posted - 2011.10.16 03:35:00 -
[186] - Quote
This is an excellent read from Ship Toaster:
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=22037&find=unread The War-Free University-á- http://poeticstanziel.blogspot.com/2011/10/war-free-university.html |
Gheng Kondur
Serva Fidem
0
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Posted - 2011.10.16 09:15:00 -
[187] - Quote
I'm a noob, but still here and do not want hi sec to be 100% safe.
But I have seen many people start this game and leave as they see no way they can build to a level where they can start their own corps and build something without being hit by what are in effect hi sec griefers who would dec them. I've seen some try, get dec'd for no reason, and without the isk to hire mercenaries have no choice other than return to NPC corps or stop playing.
Not everybody wants to join established corps, not everybody wants to PVP, this is after all supposed to be a sandbox. Some see this as 'must be pvp' which would fail the sandbox description. I don't agree that EVE is a PVP game or there is no sandbox, but accept that EVE is a sandbox that does (and should) include PVP, whether with consent or not, so you live with that risk.
What we need is a dec system that removes the option for griefers who like to find and blast noobie corps simply as they can and it makes their killboards look good, yet allow for wars over game related goals, rather than just laughing at another noobie killed.
This doesn't get us there as any corp that can afford the shield could afford the mercenary corps, but something needs to change to allow new players to enter, build, grow and move out of high sec in ways other than simply becoming a drone in a massive alliance. |
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CCP Spitfire
C C P C C P Alliance
232
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Posted - 2011.10.16 09:48:00 -
[188] - Quote
Please keep the discussion civil and refrain from personal attacks.
CCP Spitfire | Russian Community Coordinator @ccp_spitfire |
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Norrin Ellis
Venture Racing
7
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Posted - 2011.10.16 10:09:00 -
[189] - Quote
I always considered it a bit draconian to declare the only defense against war griefing to be an exploit. The targets are usually folks who can't defend themselves and have no other means to escape harassment. As long as the game mechanics favor bullies, it's perfectly reasonable to allow people the choice to avoid them. CEO, Venture Racing |
Dave Day
Universal Freelance CONSORTIUM UNIVERSALIS
16
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Posted - 2011.10.16 11:49:00 -
[190] - Quote
Gheng Kondur wrote:I'm a noob, but still here and do not want hi sec to be 100% safe.
But I have seen many people start this game and leave as they see no way they can build to a level where they can start their own corps and build something without being hit by what are in effect hi sec griefers who would dec them. I've seen some try, get dec'd for no reason, and without the isk to hire mercenaries have no choice other than return to NPC corps or stop playing.
Not everybody wants to join established corps, not everybody wants to PVP, this is after all supposed to be a sandbox. Some see this as 'must be pvp' which would fail the sandbox description. I don't agree that EVE is a PVP game or there is no sandbox, but accept that EVE is a sandbox that does (and should) include PVP, whether with consent or not, so you live with that risk.
What we need is a dec system that removes the option for griefers who like to find and blast noobie corps simply as they can and it makes their killboards look good, yet allow for wars over game related goals, rather than just laughing at another noobie killed.
This doesn't get us there as any corp that can afford the shield could afford the mercenary corps, but something needs to change to allow new players to enter, build, grow and move out of high sec in ways other than simply becoming a drone in a massive alliance.
I completely agree |
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Dirk Decibel
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
3
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Posted - 2011.10.16 13:10:00 -
[191] - Quote
John Rothman wrote: Cost of war goes up and up every week.
This, it should grow exponentially too as far as I'm confirmed and after war is over it should decrease at the same rate again. This way nobody will be able to perma-dec any other corp. Also: it makes for a proper isk sink!
Best idea evar, why am I not a dev?
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Darius III
Interstellar eXodus BricK sQuAD.
197
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Posted - 2011.10.16 15:30:00 -
[192] - Quote
I think this thread is dildos and this is a bad move.
Selene D'Celeste wrote:That's .... random.
ALSO: Posting in a Selene D'Celeste thread. Hi Selene o/
If Women aren't supposed to do the cooking, why are their bodies full of milk and eggs? |
Morganta
Peripheral Madness The Midget Mafia
88
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Posted - 2011.10.17 05:45:00 -
[193] - Quote
so is this basically?
"after further review we have determined that the exploit cannot be fixed and cannot be enforced so we have decided to allow it" The American public's reaction to the change was poor and the new cola was a major marketing failure. The subsequent reintroduction of Coke's original formula, re-branded as "Coca-Cola Classic", resulted in a significant gain in sales, leading to speculation that the introduction of the New Coke formula was just a marketing ploy |
Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery
160
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Posted - 2011.10.17 08:36:00 -
[194] - Quote
Morganta wrote:so is this basically?
"after further review we have determined that the exploit cannot be fixed and cannot be enforced so we have decided to allow it" With the devs remaining completely silent on the change, yes, I would have to say this is the answer. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
Just Another Toon
University of Caille Gallente Federation
290
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Posted - 2011.10.17 09:50:00 -
[195] - Quote
Kengutsi Akira wrote:Buruk Utama wrote:GM Karidor wrote:In the past, there have been some policies in place within Customer Support that imposed additional rules onto the war mechanics available in game, such as the so called " Alliance Hopping" or the more recent "Dec Shield". The decision has been made to lift those restrictions that affect war declarations, thereby opening up ways for corporations to avoid unwanted wars via methods that were previously considered exploits of game mechanics. In other words: If you can leave or declare a war, raise the costs for other entities to declare one to you or do any other war related things within current normal game mechanics, you may do so without having to keep other rules in mind. Anyone else find it funny that the blog he links to states that the issue will "soon be fixed" yet the blog is dated: 2008.01.10. It has been almost 4 years since that "soon" promise Well it takes a while to get to fixing things here lol
IF InCurrentWar = Yes and IwantToLeaveAlliance = Yes THEN CorpWarDecEndDate = AllianceWarDecEndDate
Not that hard to fix really... |
Mukutep
Capital Industries Research And Development Fidelas Constans
1
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Posted - 2011.10.17 13:29:00 -
[196] - Quote
Some enterprising person or entity needs to setup an alliance for wardec shielding and charge corporations x-amount to join them, or leave them, or whatever the hell you do to avoid wardecs since this is a legal mechanic now. I bet there's some good money to be made in a service like this.
Alternately, some of the merc corps could start espionage services (I'm sure some already do). In addition or instead of wardec'ing corps for people, you infiltrate them and destroy/rob them from within.
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Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
71
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Posted - 2011.10.17 16:21:00 -
[197] - Quote
In reality if you could pay concord to "let you kill someone" You could also probably pay them more to "Not let someone kill you"
Now that being said, the current wardec system is a travesty. It has been used as a pay for grief system for as long as it has existed. There is no goal, easily discernible winners or an ending beyond "I am bored". 99% of wardecs have no strategic value, or any kind of worth while cause and effect outside of pissing people off and laughing at them.
So this change is bad... But it is also good...
It is good because as more and more people begin to abuse this former exploit, it will eventually compel an outcry loud enough that will FINALLY revamp the wardec system. So... no tears from me. Give us better and more meaningful wardecs. |
Khanh'rhh
Sudden Buggery
161
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Posted - 2011.10.17 16:51:00 -
[198] - Quote
The solution to this is remarkably simple. All you need to do is stop any changes to the corp/alliance in the first 7 days of any war.
If at war: cannot join alliance. If alliance at war: corps cannot leave.
No need to ******* read petitions, GMs!
7 days after the first attempt to leave or join an alliance is made, the corp can 'bribe' CONCORD to allow the transfer if there is a war on. It should be the same as the wardec fee. This means if someone is 'greifing' then the aggressed corp can still join/leave an alliance if a second party (an alt etc) lands a wardec. This, surely, is a fair way of doing it.
Lets leave aside whether or not you think corps SHOULD be allowed to avoid any war they don't want, as this is a discussion about policing it, not game design. CCP policy has been that this is an unintended game mechanic so until I hear otherwise it is just ******* lazy, to change a game mechanic based on the fact you don't want to a) fix it or b) police it. - "Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual, issued in the 1930's |
Jita Bloodtear
Bloodtear Labs
12
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Posted - 2011.10.17 21:15:00 -
[199] - Quote
GM Karidor wrote:In the past, there have been some policies in place within Customer Support that imposed additional rules onto the war mechanics available in game, such as the so called " Alliance Hopping" or the more recent "Dec Shield". The decision has been made to lift those restrictions that affect war declarations, thereby opening up ways for corporations to avoid unwanted wars via methods that were previously considered exploits of game mechanics. In other words: If you can leave or declare a war, raise the costs for other entities to declare one to you or do any other war related things within current normal game mechanics, you may do so without having to keep other rules in mind. Unbelievable. Once again you have made the wrong decision and decided to shirk responsibility for your own game mechanics bugs. You are only moving to deregulate these bugs because you no longer want to spend man-hours fixing what you should have hardcoded into the game to prevent in the first place.
Furthermore, there are bugs the general public does not yet seem to be aware of. If a corp drops from alliance, it is immune to incoming wardecs until the next downtime. Period. This helpful bug, combined with alliance wardec wiping, can render a corporation mostly immune to multiple groups of attacking forces (even if staggered wardecs), and completely immune to a single attacking entity. |
Shaft Vain
EVE University Ivy League
0
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Posted - 2011.10.17 21:44:00 -
[200] - Quote
Sorry I'm against this. In fact what I think should happen is that everyone that was in the corp at the time of the war dec should have the war flag follow them. The only way out would be either the original target corp surrenders or if an individual leaves the corp or moves into an alliance then that individual submits a personal surrender.
A compromise would be if you leave during the 24 hour start up one would not get flagged.
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Mocam
EVE University Ivy League
44
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Posted - 2011.10.17 23:19:00 -
[201] - Quote
Jita Bloodtear wrote:GM Karidor wrote:In the past, there have been some policies in place within Customer Support that imposed additional rules onto the war mechanics available in game, such as the so called " Alliance Hopping" or the more recent "Dec Shield". The decision has been made to lift those restrictions that affect war declarations, thereby opening up ways for corporations to avoid unwanted wars via methods that were previously considered exploits of game mechanics. In other words: If you can leave or declare a war, raise the costs for other entities to declare one to you or do any other war related things within current normal game mechanics, you may do so without having to keep other rules in mind. Unbelievable. Once again you have made the wrong decision and decided to shirk responsibility for your own game mechanics bugs. You are only moving to deregulate these bugs because you no longer want to spend man-hours fixing what you should have hardcoded into the game to prevent in the first place. Furthermore, there are bugs the general public does not yet seem to be aware of. If a corp drops from alliance, it is immune to incoming wardecs until the next downtime. Period. This helpful bug, combined with alliance wardec wiping, can render a corporation mostly immune to multiple groups of attacking forces (even if staggered wardecs), and completely immune to a single attacking entity.
Overall - standardizing rule enforcement is a good thing but this? ...
The bug you mention should be fixed. Then again, a lot of stuff with wardec's could use a revamp. IMO - this change is bad form on CCP's part - droping restrictions on exploits BEFORE fixing the bugs? That's just asking for abuses to occur.
I don't mind the ability of a corporation to scrape off a war by joining alliances and leaving. That's little different than jumping into a gatecamp of blues then warping out with someone chasing you. The only fix here might be to attach ISK costs for a corporation leaving an alliance while in a war. They must pay out the equivalent of all wars currently in place against that alliance - something along these lines. Whine else where about a smart CEO's "navigation" abilities but, again, that bug you mention needs fixing. Running away should allow for chasing and this is prevented with that bug.
I do mind the fact that corporations can stack up fake wardecs while avoiding the costs due abuse of game mechanics and CCP's unwillingness to fix that.
My opinion on the subject is simple: If you want protection and are willing to pay for it - fine. Alts + wardec yourself as much as you can afford. Avoiding the costs while gaining the benefits, that's bad. Yes - deep pockets can "buy protection" but they'll need to pay for it and keep paying or that protection goes away. Spend towards the ISK sinks freely, that helps the overall economy. |
ShipToaster
Imperial Academy Amarr Empire
2
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Posted - 2011.10.18 00:34:00 -
[202] - Quote
GM KaridorHaving said that, if you have ideas on how to improve war mechanics and make them more sound and useful, it probably is a good time to create (or revive) according threads on the [url=https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=topics&f=270 wrote:Features and Ideas Discussions forum[/url] in this regard.
Recent wardec discussion threads. Go troll them or better still make one of your own.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=20782&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=22096&find=unread
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=22037&find=unread
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The Zerg Overmind
Rule Reversal Dec Shield
2
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Posted - 2011.10.18 02:44:00 -
[203] - Quote
In accordance with CCP's wishes we have founded a new service for all corporations: DEC SHIELD
Corporations may join and leave the alliance at a cost of 50mil per join and wipe their wardecs off upon us. More details available here. War Dec Removal Service - 50mil |
Kelduum Revaan
EVE University Ivy League
767
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Posted - 2011.10.18 07:07:00 -
[204] - Quote
ShipToaster wrote:Recent wardec discussion threads. Go troll them or better still make one of your own....
Some good ideas there, and I have another suggestion I hope to post later on this evening which should provide a couple of things not currently seen with the current mechanics - most notably the option for the defender to end the war in the event they can muster significant force. Kelduum Revaan CEO, EVE University |
Eternum Praetorian
PWNED Factor The Seventh Day
73
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Posted - 2011.10.18 13:46:00 -
[205] - Quote
The Zerg Overmind wrote:In accordance with CCP's wishes we have founded a new service for all corporations: DEC SHIELD Corporations may join and leave the alliance at a cost of 50mil per join and wipe their wardecs off upon us. More details available here.
Damn! beat me to it lol
Only question now is... will CCP retract this "ruling" before you make your 1B isk back for making said alliance |
Poetic Stanziel
Arrakis Technology
121
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Posted - 2011.10.18 16:49:00 -
[206] - Quote
Kelduum Revaan wrote:ShipToaster wrote:Recent wardec discussion threads. Go troll them or better still make one of your own.... Some good ideas there, and I have another suggestion I hope to post later on this evening which should provide a couple of things not currently seen with the current mechanics - most notably the option for the defender to end the war in the event they can muster significant force. Please don't post your "capture the flag" idea. We don't need an artificial Warsong Gulch in this game.
What God Wants, God Gets, God Help Us All |
Irval Penken
School of Applied Knowledge Caldari State
0
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Posted - 2011.10.18 19:34:00 -
[207] - Quote
I just feel that CCP's decision is pointless if it makes it possible to make declaring war a financial disaster for the attacker - one could talk weeks about what costs would be appropriate, but being able to rise it in the way that EVE UNI does it now (and other alliances can, as well, if they bother) just looks *wrong*.
I mean, seriously, why have a mechanism in the game if you then accept it that people can completely bypass it... |
Htrag
The Carebear Stare Hydroponic Zone
4
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Posted - 2011.10.18 21:05:00 -
[208] - Quote
Lazy GMs TBH. |
Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution
62
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Posted - 2011.10.19 06:40:00 -
[209] - Quote
I don't like this policy change at all - how is anyone supposed to undertake a high sec war now?
Fix Faction Warfare CCP!!! |
Sofia Bellard
Pator Tech School Minmatar Republic
67
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Posted - 2011.10.19 07:48:00 -
[210] - Quote
One of the very best GM decisions ever to be honest. The game is played by more than just blood thirsty PvP players guys.
DEAL WITH IT!
Poor sad little pirates, -áwhy you so mad? |
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